The Briefing Room
General Category => National/Breaking News => Topic started by: mystery-ak on April 10, 2017, 03:10:08 pm
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April 10, 2017 6:34 AM
Passengers ‘shaky and so disgusted’ as United forces screaming doctor off a plane
A passenger on a United Airlines flight from Chicago to Louisville posted a video on Facebook of another passenger being forcibly removed from the plane before takeoff at Chicago O’Hare International Airport. The passenger is dragged him by his arms toward the front of the plane. Tyler and Audra Bridges/Facebook
By Kate Irby
“No, this is wrong,” a woman shouts at security officers in the video.”Oh my God, look at what you did to him!”
A disturbing video was uploaded to Facebook by Audra Bridges Sunday night. It shows a full United flight sitting at a Chicago airport and bound for Louisville. But there was a problem – United had overbooked the flight, they needed four seats for their stand-by crew and no one was volunteering to give up their spot.
That problem led to a violent confrontation as security forced one passenger off the plane, who said he was a doctor and couldn’t take a later flight because he had patients to see at his hospital in the morning.
Bridges, a Louisville resident, told the Courier-Journal that United announced in the terminal Sunday night that the flight was overbooked and offered passengers $400 and a night at a hotel to give up their seat and opt for a flight at 3 p.m. on Monday. No one volunteered, and passengers boarded the flight. United told the full flight that they couldn’t take off without the four seats, then upped the offer to $800 plus a night at a hotel, but still no one volunteered.
Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/news/nation-world/national/article143706429.html#storylink=cpy
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I suspect they will find this a far more expensive action than if they had continued to up the compensation until 4 people accepted it.
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I flew Delta last week. A horrible experience. They have cut capacity down to the point they cannot recover if they have a disruption. It was taking people some people 3 to 5 days extra to get home and Delta wasn't paying for hotels or food.
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Nothing will come of this. The airlines and airports have become a post apocalyptic nightmare after 911. Civility, common sense and rational behavior is gone and all that is left is thug govt' tactics like this.
You have a better shot at getting somewhere more comfortably and on time taking a Greyhound bus than taking a flight anymore.
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The standby crew couldn't, er, stand for what probably amounted to about a one-hour flight at most?
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Insanity.
A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight. So he was dragged off, battered and limp.
By Avi Selk April 10 at 11:00 AM
United Airlines says a man wouldn’t give up his spot on an overbooked flight Sunday.
So, according to witnesses and videos of the incident, he was pulled screaming from his seat by security, knocked against an arm rest and dragged down the aisle and back to the terminal at Chicago’s O’Hare International Airport. ...
“He says, ‘Nope. I’m not getting off the flight. I’m a doctor and have to see patients tomorrow morning,'” Bridges said.
The man became angry as the manager persisted, Bridges said, eventually yelling. “He said, more or less, ‘I’m being selected because I’m Chinese.'”
A police officer boarded. Then a second and a third. ...
One of the officers quickly reaches across two empty seats, snatches the man and pulls him into the aisle.
“My God!” someone yells — not for the first time.
He goes limp after hitting the floor.
“It looked like it knocked him out,” Bridges said. “His nose was bloody.” ...
Washington Post (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dr-gridlock/wp/2017/04/10/a-man-wouldnt-leave-an-overbooked-united-flight-so-he-was-dragged-off-battered-and-limp/?utm_term=.69947b0f23a7)
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Nothing will come of this. The airlines and airports have become a post apocalyptic nightmare after 911. Civility, common sense and rational behavior is gone and all that is left is thug govt' tactics like this.
You have a better shot at getting somewhere more comfortably and on time taking a Greyhound bus than taking a flight anymore.
Just wait until ultra-high speed rail becomes common place. Hope those pencil-d__'s remember their customer service attitudes then.
Per this article, by 2030 expect 220 mph trains between large metro areas, and 110 mph ones radiating from major hubs.
http://www.ushsr.com/ushsrmap.html (http://www.ushsr.com/ushsrmap.html)
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So much flat out stupidity.
UA could have rented a van or maybe even have chartered a small plane to get their people to Louisville for the comp they were offering.
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Nothing will come of this. The airlines and airports have become a post apocalyptic nightmare after 911. Civility, common sense and rational behavior is gone and all that is left is thug govt' tactics like this.
You have a better shot at getting somewhere more comfortably and on time taking a Greyhound bus than taking a flight anymore.
This could go viral, and if it does, it'll cost them a bunch in lost business. They might not have an overbooking problem, though.
Last time I flew, the plane was overbooked, but they got the seats before anyone boarded. Yep, they kept upping the offer, too, until enough people went for it.
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I suspect they will find this a far more expensive action than if they had continued to up the compensation until 4 people accepted it.
The guy is in for a big payday, deservedly so.
I hope he's not a doctor, though. His reaction in this situation was less than rational.
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(http://www.ushsr.com/images/810_US_HSR_Phasing_Map.gif)
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I'm boarding a plane Saturday and hope it's not United. :pondering:
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People want flights to be as cheap as possible. Well, that requires things like overbooking, bumping, etc.. When you buy a ticket, you are told that if it is overbooked, you may be bumped involuntarily. That's part of the deal when you buy a ticket. Generally, you can pay more and not be subject to bumping. This guy should have gotten off the plane when directed to do so, and if the cops had to drag him off to obtain compliance with the terms of the ticket, that's on him.
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Just wait until ultra-high speed rail becomes common place. Hope those pencil-d__'s remember their customer service attitudes then.
Per this article, by 2030 expect 220 mph trains between large metro areas, and 110 mph ones radiating from major hubs.
http://www.ushsr.com/ushsrmap.html (http://www.ushsr.com/ushsrmap.html)
As long as they can finance it without any taxpayer dollars, fine.
I have zero desire to have my tax dollars used to placate people with a train fetish.
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I've rarely been on a flight where they didn't have an over-book announcement/offer, yet I've never seen or heard of a single scheduled passenger being bumped for stand-by crew. Booked passengers always had a priority.
I have a feeling there is more to this story. The airline itself couldn't forcibly remove someone from the flight, law enforcement would have to be involved, which means there is somewhere more to this story, even if it is a FUBAR situation.
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I don't understand why this passenger let it escalate to being dragged off the plane...
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As long as they can finance it without any taxpayer dollars, fine.
I have zero desire to have my tax dollars used to placate people with a train fetish.
Same here. The idea of getting from Houston to Dallas in less than 90 minutes and not have to mess with hassle of airlines? No fetish. Just makes sense
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I've rarely been on a flight where they didn't have an over-book announcement/offer, yet I've never seen or heard of a single scheduled passenger being bumped for stand-by crew. Booked passengers always had a priority.
I have a feeling there is more to this story. The airline itself couldn't forcibly remove someone from the flight, law enforcement would have to be involved, which means there is somewhere more to this story, even if it is a FUBAR situation.
There is another video of the guy running down the aisle muttering 'I've got to get home' over and over. Having felt the same way on occasion while traveling my heart goes out to him. But he seemed deranged.
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Same here. The idea of getting from Houston to Dallas in less than 90 minutes and not have to mess with hassle of airlines? No fetish. Just makes sense
Not if you add in the expense of building it. Just look at Cali and that multi billion dollar mess.
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People want flights to be as cheap as possible. Well, that requires things like overbooking, bumping, etc.. When you buy a ticket, you are told that if it is overbooked, you may be bumped involuntarily. That's part of the deal when you buy a ticket. Generally, you can pay more and not be subject to bumping. This guy should have gotten off the plane when directed to do so, and if the cops had to drag him off to obtain compliance with the terms of the ticket, that's on him.
Actually it doesn't matter how much you pay for a ticket. The airline writes the rules and can toss you off for any reason. Your ticket is just a promise to transport you if its convenient for them.
So while the airline has the legal right to do this, from a business perspective ALL U.S. airlines have a serious PR issue.
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There is another video of the guy running down the aisle muttering 'I've got to get home' over and over. Having felt the same way on occasion while traveling my heart goes out to him. But he seemed deranged.
@skeeter
I don't blame him. The airlines and airports are horrible. They can break just about anyone.
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Same here. The idea of getting from Houston to Dallas in less than 90 minutes and not have to mess with hassle of airlines? No fetish. Just makes sense
The sense it makes depends on how much it costs to make it happen. If it makes enough sense for enough people, they'll be able to charge fares sufficient to pay for the construction or operation of the rail line. But every substantive proposal I've seen includes a heck of a lot of government subsidies.
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I don't understand why this passenger let it escalate to being dragged off the plane...
Maybe he smelled a potential payday (lawsuit). I'm just amazed that they're (United Airlines) so blasé about their colossal incompetence re: overbooking. It's not rocket surgery...keeping track of how many seats are booked. Ironic.... that this guy claims to be a doctor.... also famous for 'overbooking'....lol.
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@skeeter
I don't blame him. The airlines and airports are horrible. They can break just about anyone.
Well, I've been flying for about 40 years, and probably seen an equal number of involuntary bumps. And never once did I see anyone act the way that clown did.
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Same here. The idea of getting from Houston to Dallas in less than 90 minutes and not have to mess with hassle of airlines? No fetish. Just makes sense
@catfish1957
As long as we're dreaming I'd really like to see transporters like in Star Trek.
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Well, I've been flying for about 40 years, and probably seen an equal number of involuntary bumps. And never once did I see anyone act the way that clown did.
I've seen it. The airlines are treating people worse every single day. Cramming more and more people onto the planes. Making the seats smaller and decreasing the number of flights.
I had 58 trips last year and have managed to cut it down significantly this year. My goal is to never fly on an airline again.
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I don't understand why this passenger let it escalate to being dragged off the plane...
@mystery-ak
People get tired, bone crushing tired. Last week the airlines were messed up. Once people lost their scheduled seat, regardless of reason, they went into the standy pool. One of my flights had almost 70 people waiting on standby. Some were told it would be 4 days before the airline could get them home.
The airlines have cut back capacity severely so when there are disruptions the airline cannot recover.
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@skeeter
I don't blame him. The airlines and airports are horrible. They can break just about anyone.
I came close once, being left in the plane on the tarmac in 90 degree heat for four hours, while the airline procured a engine part, only to be finally taken off and put up in a hotel for the night. But I kept it together.
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Actually it doesn't matter how much you pay for a ticket. The airline writes the rules and can toss you off for any reason. Your ticket is just a promise to transport you if its convenient for them.
As a practical matter, it does. Every domestic airline with which I'm familiar prioritizes involuntary bumps by fare paid. First class, business class, full coach, etc., will not get bumped off the flight (thought they may get downgraded) before cut-rate nonrefundables. If you don't want to be bumped off a flight, pony up for the more expensive ticket up front.
So while the airline has the legal right to do this, from a business perspective ALL U.S. airlines have a serious PR issue.
And yet, air passenger travel generally increases every year. Why is that?
People want to have their cake and eat it too. They want cut-rate fares, but want to lug massive "carry-on" bags on to flight, they want their snacks, no bumping, etc... Just look at the bottom lines -- U.S. airlines are not huge profit machines over extended periods, and a lot of them struggle. It is a very, very competitive industry, and finding the right balance of price/service is not easy.
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@catfish1957
As long as we're dreaming I'd really like to see transporters like in Star Trek.
And....if they put the same brand of idiots in charge of the transport controls (as they put in charge of booking or overbooking of airline flights now).... would you still be willing to let your molecules be disassembled and reassembled by them?
If not already there, we're headed straight for a real-life Idiocracy scenario. You see the signs and symptoms of it everywhere these days....lol.
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I've seen it.
Honestly, how many times have you actually, personally, seen someone who was involuntarily bumped literally dragged on the floor like that guy? This makes the news precisely because it almost never happens. I've never seen it. And if you have, I bet it's not more than a handful of times.
Guy should have sacked up and tried to maintain a shred of dignity instead of being a whiner.
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I came close once, being left in the plane on the tarmac in 90 degree heat for four hours, while the airline procured a engine part, only to be finally taken off and put up in a hotel for the night. But I kept it together.
If you were an elderly person, that could have triggered a serious health issue (like heart attack). If the airplane can't take off for any reason, the passengers should be escorted back to a waiting area inside the airport until it can take off. But that makes too much logical sense.....
so, nevermind.
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Rush just mentioned this incident. Asked...."Why didn't they just offer him a Pepsi?"
Lololol!
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Right or wrong, but if I saw Security heading my way I think I would cooperate instead of being dragged off the plane...but that's just me.
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I don't understand why this passenger let it escalate to being dragged off the plane...
@mystery-ak
Hmm, one family member is a United pilot. He was flying yesterday. We haven't heard from him yet today and he usually calls every day. If he were the pilot on that plane and had any say-so, this would not have happened. But, I expect the pilots had no control over what happened.
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Right or wrong, but if I saw Security heading my way I think I would cooperate instead of being dragged off the plane...but that's just me.
So would 99% of people. This snowflake just thought the bumping policy shouldn't apply to him.
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Same here. The idea of getting from Houston to Dallas in less than 90 minutes and not have to mess with hassle of airlines? No fetish. Just makes sense
That's not going to happen. Far too many landowners won't give up their land (rightfully so) for it. Many are already starting the fight.
http://www.khou.com/news/local/waller-county-landowners-vow-to-fight-high-speed-rail/175447024
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When Continental Airlines and United merged we were assured that the consumer would suffer no disruption of service. Hah. Flew Continental for many a year with nothing but professional service. United is the pits.
Lousy service, and disinterested flight attendants often bordering on rudeness.
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@mystery-ak
People get tired, bone crushing tired. Last week the airlines were messed up. Once people lost their scheduled seat, regardless of reason, they went into the standy pool. One of my flights had almost 70 people waiting on standby. Some were told it would be 4 days before the airline could get them home.
The airlines have cut back capacity severely so when there are disruptions the airline cannot recover.
I almost had that from Chicago to Dallas a few weeks go (during that very bad windstorm that blew that plane off the runway in Detroit). I was already on the phone with my corporate travel to check on Amtrak as it would have been faster than the delay (private room, about 27 hours, not bad really. Better than 2 days at the airport). Luckily I wasn't bumped.
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So would 99% of people. This snowflake just thought the bumping policy shouldn't apply to him.
Maybe he wasn't a snowflake. Just the opposite, maybe he was having a Howard Beale moment. He expected the airline to live up to their contract, he was sitting in his seat, and he was told to get off, he had to give up his seat for someone the airline deemed better than him.
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Maybe he wasn't a snowflake. Just the opposite, maybe he was having a Howard Beale moment. He expected the airline to live up to their contract, he was sitting in his seat, and he was told to get off, he had to give up his seat for someone the airline deemed better than him.
Actually, his problem was that he didn't want to live up to his contract. The possibility that you will be bumped is stated right there on your ticket. He just decided he had a right to disregard that particular part of the contract.
As I said, if you don't want the risk of being bumped, pay for a higher class of fare and you won't be. What is happening is that constant consumer demand for cheaper fares is, quite naturally, causing pressure on the service end.
Good, fast, cheap -- pick two.
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That's not going to happen. Far too many landowners won't give up their land (rightfully so) for it. Many are already starting the fight.
"Same here. The idea of getting from Houston to Dallas in less than 90 minutes and not have to mess with hassle of airlines? No fetish. Just makes sense"
@AbaraXas
"Privately owned Texas Central Partners plans to build a 240-mile bullet train line between downtown Dallas and northwest Houston within the next several years. It promises to speed passengers between the two cities in 90 minutes on train cars that travel 205 mph."
Yes, property owners have started their fight to keep their land. Their ranches would be cut through, losing many acres of their grazing land for their cattle. This will be a fight.
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"Same here. The idea of getting from Houston to Dallas in less than 90 minutes and not have to mess with hassle of airlines? No fetish. Just makes sense"
@AbaraXas
"Privately owned Texas Central Partners plans to build a 240-mile bullet train line between downtown Dallas and northwest Houston within the next several years. It promises to speed passengers between the two cities in 90 minutes on train cars that travel 205 mph."
Yes, property owners have started their fight to keep their land. Their ranches would be cut through, losing many acres of their grazing land for their cattle. This will be a fight.
And note that this eminent domain seizure will, once again, be done by a private entity, not a government one. I would like to know who, exactly, those "Partners" are. The public has a right to know who will profit handsomely (at the public's expense, per usual) from this future land-grab.
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Same here. The idea of getting from Houston to Dallas in less than 90 minutes and not have to mess with hassle of airlines? No fetish. Just makes sense
Might look that way until you realize they are showing 110MPH across N. Dakota, which is a high traffic rail freight corridor and includes oil tanker trains among other things--not to mention snow.
That either means new tracks, or sharing with some fairly long freight trains. What could go wrong?
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@skeeter
I don't blame him. The airlines and airports are horrible. They can break just about anyone.
Anyone hear what kind of doctor he is? Some specialists really don't have time for delays in their schedules, and it can make a significant difference in patient outcomes.
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"Same here. The idea of getting from Houston to Dallas in less than 90 minutes and not have to mess with hassle of airlines? No fetish. Just makes sense"
@AbaraXas
"Privately owned Texas Central Partners plans to build a 240-mile bullet train line between downtown Dallas and northwest Houston within the next several years. It promises to speed passengers between the two cities in 90 minutes on train cars that travel 205 mph."
Yes, property owners have started their fight to keep their land. Their ranches would be cut through, losing many acres of their grazing land for their cattle. This will be a fight.
....and also everyone should take into consideration, it won't take 90 minutes. The press often does this where they calculate the maximum speed divided by the distance. (about 300 miles). If they were going 205mph the full way, it would be 90 minutes, but it wouldn't go that speed the full way plus it has to come up to speed and slow down. Realistically, it would be a 2.5 hour trip if I could guess. It is currently just over a 1 hour flight.
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United CEO apologizes for having to ‘re-accommodate’ customers after passenger dragged off flight
http://thehill.com/policy/transportation/328129-united-ceo-apologizes-for-having-to-re-accommodate-customers-after
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As a practical matter, it does. Every domestic airline with which I'm familiar prioritizes involuntary bumps by fare paid. First class, business class, full coach, etc., will not get bumped off the flight (thought they may get downgraded) before cut-rate nonrefundables. If you don't want to be bumped off a flight, pony up for the more expensive ticket up front.
And yet, air passenger travel generally increases every year. Why is that?
People want to have their cake and eat it too. They want cut-rate fares, but want to lug massive "carry-on" bags on to flight, they want their snacks, no bumping, etc... Just look at the bottom lines -- U.S. airlines are not huge profit machines over extended periods, and a lot of them struggle. It is a very, very competitive industry, and finding the right balance of price/service is not easy.
Which is why I said the airline CAN bump anyone they want. They usually start with the occasionally customers rather then the regulars but they CAN bump anyone.
American airline companies are making HUGE profits and United is the leader. Regardless it is not my concern of whether they make huge profits, or any profit. I buy a ticket with the expectation they will take me from point A to point B as promised. The airlines oversell the seats or mess up their schedule and then fail to deliver on their promise.
In a free market the customer is never wrong. The customer may be overly demanding and a pain in the rear-end but they are not wrong.
Other airlines such as Qantas and Korean Air have figured this out. Through good business practices they have managed the market so that customers buy on value and not on lowest price. When you sell based on price you will eventually find your customers aren't happy with your service.
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....and also everyone should take into consideration, it won't take 90 minutes. The press often does this where they calculate the maximum speed divided by the distance. (about 300 miles). If they were going 205mph the full way, it would be 90 minutes, but it wouldn't go that speed the full way plus it has to come up to speed and slow down. Realistically, it would be a 2.5 hour trip if I could guess. It is currently just over a 1 hour flight.
Now be fair with the flight time. It takes a lot more time of the passenger than just the time in the air. It is a lot faster get in and out of rail stations than from a plane that just landed on the runway.
When I had more frequent business between Houston and Dallas, I found flying saved very little time over driving when you included the time spent go to/from and dealing with the airport.
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Now be fair with the flight time. It takes a lot more time of the passenger than just the time in the air. It is a lot faster get in and out of rail stations than from a plane that just landed on the runway.
When I had more frequent business between Houston and Dallas, I found flying saved very little time over driving when you included the time spent go to/from and dealing with the airport.
If they were to ever get these trains in place I doubt the boarding process would be much better then the airlines. They'd find a reason to add TSA to the process, security checks, random screenings and so on.
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If they were to ever get these trains in place I doubt the boarding process would be much better then the airlines. They'd find a reason to add TSA to the process, security checks, random screenings and so on.
But zey haff ways to make ze trains run on time.
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Now be fair with the flight time. It takes a lot more time of the passenger than just the time in the air. It is a lot faster get in and out of rail stations than from a plane that just landed on the runway.
When I had more frequent business between Houston and Dallas, I found flying saved very little time over driving when you included the time spent go to/from and dealing with the airport.
Driving is often faster due to flight delays.
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Which is why I said the airline CAN bump anyone they want. They usually start with the occasionally customers rather then the regulars but they CAN bump anyone.
American airline companies are making HUGE profits and United is the leader.
Airline profits are all over the place. They have good years, and bad years.
In a free market the customer is never wrong. The customer may be overly demanding and a pain in the rear-end but they are not wrong.
Customers are wrong plenty of times. There are customers who refuse to pay what is owed, pay late, destroy property, steal, treat employees like dirt...any number of times they're wrong. I once had a "customer" grope a secretary. Was that "wrong"?
Other airlines such as Qantas and Korean Air have figured this out. Through good business practices they have managed the market so that customers buy on value and not on lowest price. When you sell based on price you will eventually find your customers aren't happy with your service.
The fact that some customers value service over price does not mean that all customers do. If they did, first class and business class would sell out before a single coach seat was sold.
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Airline profits are all over the place. They have good years, and bad years.
Customers are wrong plenty of times. There are customers who refuse to pay what is owed, pay late, destroy property, steal, treat employees like dirt...any number of times they're wrong. I once had a "customer" grope a secretary. Was that "wrong"?
The fact that some customers value service over price does not mean that all customers do. If they did, first class and business class would sell out before a single coach seat was sold.
@Maj. Bill Martin
You are awfully defensive about the airlines. You must work for em.
People ( those in the back aka customers) mostly view air travel as a necessary evil. Something they must endure to get where they want to go. I used to be able fly from Tampa to Dallas and be there in time for an 830am meeting. Trip wasn't pleasant but was pretty much predictable.
Now that same trip takes an entire day and is nothing but misery. Cramped and dirty aircraft, dirty terminals, grumpy passengers and flight crews who have a chip on their shoulder. Dare to complain and you get tossed off the flight. Say the wrong thing and the agent will call the cops or flight attendant will say you are interfering with a flight crew.
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Driving is often faster due to flight delays.
@anubias
I was looking up rental cars when my flight from DFW to Atlanta finally boarded. I ended up getting home to Tampa after only 14 hours of travel. My coworker who was supposed to be on the same flight ended up taking about 36 hours.
Google said the drive was 17 hours.
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@Maj. Bill Martin
You are awfully defensive about the airlines. You must work for em.
Nope -- never did, and don't have a penny invested in them. Just flown enough to know the rules about bumping. And I have zero sympathy for a drama queen who gets dragged off because he refuses to follow the rules to which he agreed.
People ( those in the back aka customers) mostly view air travel as a necessary evil. Something they must endure to get where they want to go. I used to be able fly from Tampa to Dallas and be there in time for an 830am meeting. Trip wasn't pleasant but was pretty much predictable.
Now that same trip takes an entire day and is nothing but misery. Cramped and dirty aircraft, dirty terminals, grumpy passengers and flight crews who have a chip on their shoulder. Dare to complain and you get tossed off the flight. Say the wrong thing and the agent will call the cops or flight attendant will say you are interfering with a flight crew.
Never been tossed off a flight, or even close to it. Then again, I'm not a demanding guy.
The real problem is that a lot of people want cheap air travel, yet want to be treated as if they're getting something else. Options for more luxurious travel -- business class or first class -- generally are available. But most people don't want to pay for that, so they get what they are willing to pay for.
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Nope -- never did, and don't have a penny invested in them. Just flown enough to know the rules about bumping. And I have zero sympathy for a drama queen who gets dragged off because he refuses to follow the rules to which he agreed.
Never been tossed off a flight, or even close to it. Then again, I'm not a demanding guy.
The real problem is that a lot of people want cheap air travel, yet want to be treated as if they're getting something else. Options for more luxurious travel -- business class or first class -- generally are available. But most people don't want to pay for that, so they get what they are willing to pay for.
@Maj. Bill Martin
I fly a lot. I've seen a lot of stupid stuff. Drunks, people puking, heart attacks, strokes, idiots and lots of decent people.
People are buying on price because airlines are selling on price. You probably don't understand the point I'm making.
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People are buying on price because airlines are selling on price.
I'm fairly certain you have that backwards.
There are lots of opportunity to pay for full fare tickets, buy first class, etc.
Instead most use internet compare sites to get the absolute cheapest fare.
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Might look that way until you realize they are showing 110MPH across N. Dakota, which is a high traffic rail freight corridor and includes oil tanker trains among other things--not to mention snow.
That either means new tracks, or sharing with some fairly long freight trains. What could go wrong?
You have to have new tracks grade crossing the whole nine yards. If memory serves 79mph is the absolute limit for road crossing; go faster than that and the train will be in the crossing before the arms come down.
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I'll admit to wanting cheap air travel. Just hoping getting knocked out and a bloody nose isn't part of the trade-off.
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I'm fairly certain you have that backwards.
There are lots of opportunity to pay for full fare tickets, buy first class, etc.
Instead most use internet compare sites to get the absolute cheapest fare.
You made my point.
Inexperienced travelers tend to only look at price. Some airlines you have to pay for every bag, some you don't.
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Nothing will come of this. The airlines and airports have become a post apocalyptic nightmare after 911. Civility, common sense and rational behavior is gone and all that is left is thug govt' tactics like this.
You have a better shot at getting somewhere more comfortably and on time taking a Greyhound bus than taking a flight anymore.
I like the train. Riding the rails is peaceful and relaxing. You meet a better class of people too.
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You made my point.
Inexperienced travelers tend to only look at price. Some airlines you have to pay for every bag, some you don't.
If you are making a point, I'm not seeing it.
Airlines sell by price because most people paying for flights prioritize that way. And most people on the typical flight are NOT first time flyers.
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@Maj. Bill Martin People are buying on price because airlines are selling on price. You probably don't understand the point I'm making.
I do. I just think you're wrong. Airlines aren't jamming low prices down the throats of consumers. They're selling on price because for most passengers, price is incredibly important. There's an entire industry -- Priceline, Kayak, etc. -- build around finding people the lowest possible price to get from point A to point B. That's because the consumer demand is for low prices.
When I flew more for business, I'd never pay the cheapest fare for precisely this reason. I wanted the flexibility to cancel/reschedule, the security of knowing I wouldn't be bumped, etc.. But that costs more, and you have to be willing to pay that. Many people aren't. Well, okay. If you want the low fares that come from airlines ensuring that popular routes are full, without empty seats, then you're going to run the risk of being bumped. If you're not willing to run that risk, then upgrade.
This guy wanted the cheap flight, but without the possibility of being bumped. Sorry, you don't get that option.
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You have to have new tracks grade crossing the whole nine yards. If memory serves 79mph is the absolute limit for road crossing; go faster than that and the train will be in the crossing before the arms come down.
@Idaho_Cowboy
Here in Florida there was a brief effort for high speed rail. one of the lines was from Tampa to Orlando, 80 miles. Of course every town in between wanted a stop.
The proposed ticket price was $20 per person each way.
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I'll admit to wanting cheap air travel. Just hoping getting knocked out and a bloody nose isn't part of the trade-off.
It's not, as long as you follow the terms of your ticket and understand there is a possibility you get bumped. And if that happens, you handle it like an adult, get off the plane as requested, and pick up your $800 bonus cash. You don't decide to reneg on your agreement regarding being bumped and have to be dragged off by cops.
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So much flat out stupidity.
UA could have rented a van or maybe even have chartered a small plane to get their people to Louisville for the comp they were offering.
I bet there was at least 10 private ceo jets for UA parked right at that airport.
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My wife and I was flying to FL for our honeymoon..4 days at the mickey park and a 4 day cruise to Bahamas.
They offered to pay $350 each and overnight accomadations and food and I was like YEEESSSSS but sadly were were not picked. I think our flight at the time was around $200 each round trip so I would have made $300 plus not have to spend for dinner that night.
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Think United’s bad day can’t get worse? These #UnitedMovieLines won’t do them any favors
http://twitchy.com/sd-3133/2017/04/10/think-uniteds-bad-day-cant-get-worse-these-unitedmovielines-wont-do-them-any-favors/ (http://twitchy.com/sd-3133/2017/04/10/think-uniteds-bad-day-cant-get-worse-these-unitedmovielines-wont-do-them-any-favors/)
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Brandon MorseVerified account @TheBrandonMorse
This is the banged up face of a soon to be very, very wealthy man.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C9E1Gm4V0AAmMLZ.jpg)
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvPugcb7QGE
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I don't know how wealthy he'll be.
Assuming his ticket was like most tickets, it said that he could be bumped. There are even express laws regulating when passengers can be bumped involuntarily, the required compensation, etc. United didn't just make this up on their own. And airlines are within their legal rights to have passengers who refuse to be removed, removed involuntarily by police or contractors. Normally, companies are willing to settle claims that hurt their image, but there is a real issue with precedent here. If this guy gets tossed a pot of money, then you're going to see a lot of other passengers refuse to comply when ordered to deplane. It may have the perverse effect of encouraging more confrontations. So, speaking as a lawyer, this is one of those situations where you would encourage your client to fight it out -- at least for awhile.
I'd point out that those crew members were very likely heading to be the crew on a different plane. If they did not make that flight, then an entire other flight would have to be cancelled, and all those people delayed.
Bottom line is that you simply do not have a legal right to refuse to deplane when ordered to do so. This guy apparently believed that the rules that applied to everyone else don't apply to him, so he refused. He found out that he's no better than anyone else. Honestly, I have absolutely zero sympathy for this guy. You were told to leave, so leave. Is that really so hard?
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. He found out that he's no better than anyone else. Honestly, I have absolutely zero sympathy for this guy. You were told to leave, so leave. Is that really so hard?
Agreed....I would have taken the $800 and a night in a hotel...I never want to go home..lol
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I don't know how wealthy he'll be.
I'd venture that since this has already been a PR disaster for UA, I'd guess this guy will get a pretty decent "out of court" undisclosed settlement. If you are a lawyer, what do you think? About $250-$500K? That'd be my guess.
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Agreed....I would have taken the $800 and a night in a hotel...I never want to go home..lol
Hmmmm....One night Bangkok.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgc_LRjlbTU
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So apparently United airlines has hired a new spokesman.
(http://i.imgur.com/sRsIIqS.jpg)
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So apparently United airlines has hired a news spokesman.
(http://i.imgur.com/sRsIIqS.jpg)
LOL!!!
Wouldn't surprise me.
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I'd venture that since this has already been a PR disaster for UA, I'd guess this guy will get a pretty decent "out of court" undisclosed settlement. If you are a lawyer, what do you think? About $250-$500K? That'd be my guess.
I don't believe this was actually United, but a regional airline. And depending on who did the removal, they might not even be liable at all. But zero chance I go beyond five figures. Maybe $20k if you really push it. You have to be very conscious of the possibility of people causing problems in the hope of cashing in. You want people, in the future, to comply when ordered to leave.
Legally, the only issue is going to be the manner in which he was removed. The right to remove him - by force if necessary - would be something a judge would instruct a jury that they must take as fact. If it even got to a jury with respect the the airline.
At the outset, I'd offer medical bills, an equal amount in pain/suffering. But I'd really have to see some serious risk of real liability before getting even into five figures.
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I don't believe this was actually United, but a regional airline. And depending on who did the removal, they might not even be liable at all. But zero chance I go beyond five figures. Maybe $20k if you really push it. You have to be very conscious of the possibility of people causing problems in the hope of cashing in. You want people, in the future, to comply when ordered to leave.
Legally, the only issue is going to be the manner in which he was removed. The right to remove him - by force if necessary - would be something a judge would instruct a jury that they must take as fact. If it even got to a jury with respect the the airline.
At the outset, I'd offer medical bills, an equal amount in pain/suffering. But I'd really have to see some serious risk of real liability before getting even into five figures.
The guy was a Dr. How about harm to his practice, abilities, etc. Good points, but I am still feeling a quiet low 6 figure settlement.
Time to call.....
(http://www.interaksyon.com/entertainment/assets/media/2013/09/saul-goodman.jpg)
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The guy was a Dr. How about harm to his practice, abilities, etc.
He might be able to argue more in damages, but he's going to have a really hard time getting around the issue of why he didn't choose to leave voluntary when required, by law, to do so.
Again, without knowing all the facts regarding the removal and liability, it's ballparking. But you cannot create an incentive for people to emulate him.
Also, i imagine he's not the first person to be removed by force from a plane - for whatever reason - and probably not the first one to be injured. There may well be case law saying he is screwed from the start.
(http://www.interaksyon.com/entertainment/assets/media/2013/09/saul-goodman.jpg)
[/quote]
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(https://media.giphy.com/media/xUA7bj8UXAYlHBraes/giphy.gif)
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I haven't been on a big jet since 1984.
I don't anticipate getting on one again.
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Hmmmm....One night Bangkok.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgc_LRjlbTU
Great song from a great movie....
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Idaho wrote:
" If memory serves 79mph is the absolute limit for road crossing; go faster than that and the train will be in the crossing before the arms come down."
Nope. That ain't it.
The "79mph limit" has to do with cab signals, not grade crossings. Many years ago, the FRA (might have been the ICC back then) stipulated that in order to run 80mph or faster, the rail line in question had to have some kind of functioning cab signal system. So, not wanting to spend lots and LOTS of money for such installations, the railroads simply lowered the maximum speed to 79mph (easy, eh?).
Back when I was a younger guy, I used to run Amtrak trains (hauled by an F-40 diesel) from New Haven to Boston on "the Shore Line" (former New Haven RR). Top speed between Kingston (RI) and Davisville was 100mph, with several grade crossings. A few didn't even have any type of crossing protection!
In the years since, Amtrak has removed most of the crossings. But a few remain in the New London (CT) area...
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Great song from a great movie....
Take the train.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wy7cmGyKwek
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Nothing will come of this. The airlines and airports have become a post apocalyptic nightmare after 911. Civility, common sense and rational behavior is gone and all that is left is thug govt' tactics like this.
You have a better shot at getting somewhere more comfortably and on time taking a Greyhound bus than taking a flight anymore.
I've flown Allegiant three times on business since last July. They're no frills, but I had no complaints. They handled
my bags properly, they were the essence of courtesy, and if they had a problem---which they did on my second
trip, they had to switch aircraft when the originally assigned MD-80 came up with cabin air issues---they came
right out and said what the problem was and how soon before a relief plane would come to the gate. (Which
proved about ten minutes max.)
I've flown quite often in my life, starting with a trip from New York to Virginia with my father when I was nine.
And I can't remember any flight I took in which the airline found itself overbooked. Maybe I was fortunate,
but perhaps the not-so-friendly-skies at United had someone asleep at the proverbial switch when the flight
in question was "overbooked" . . .
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Idaho wrote:
" If memory serves 79mph is the absolute limit for road crossing; go faster than that and the train will be in the crossing before the arms come down."
Nope. That ain't it.
The "79mph limit" has to do with cab signals, not grade crossings. Many years ago, the FRA (might have been the ICC back then) stipulated that in order to run 80mph or faster, the rail line in question had to have some kind of functioning cab signal system. So, not wanting to spend lots and LOTS of money for such installations, the railroads simply lowered the maximum speed to 79mph (easy, eh?).
Back when I was a younger guy, I used to run Amtrak trains (hauled by an F-40 diesel) from New Haven to Boston on "the Shore Line" (former New Haven RR). Top speed between Kingston (RI) and Davisville was 100mph, with several grade crossings. A few didn't even have any type of crossing protection!
In the years since, Amtrak has removed most of the crossings. But a few remain in the New London (CT) area...
Thanks for the correction. I had the right speed for the wrong reason.
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(https://media.giphy.com/media/xUA7bj8UXAYlHBraes/giphy.gif)
(http://www.mylespaul.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=3918&pictureid=82722)
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You have to have new tracks grade crossing the whole nine yards. If memory serves 79mph is the absolute limit for road crossing; go faster than that and the train will be in the crossing before the arms come down.
Do that on some loaded crude oil hauler pulling a pup and it's gonna get messy. Plenty of those in this neck of the woods.
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He might be able to argue more in damages, but he's going to have a really hard time getting around the issue of why he didn't choose to leave voluntary when required, by law, to do so.
Again, without knowing all the facts regarding the removal and liability, it's ballparking. But you cannot create an incentive for people to emulate him.
Also, i imagine he's not the first person to be removed by force from a plane - for whatever reason - and probably not the first one to be injured. There may well be case law saying he is screwed from the start.
Oh, loads of people have been removed from flights, for everything from hijacking attempts to attempted bombings to just plain wigging out.
That doesn't mean you send in the Sopranos to clear a seat for your employees. That crap should have been settled before the plane even boarded. Can't the desk people count?
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Oh, loads of people have been removed from flights, for everything from hijacking attempts to attempted bombings to just plain wigging out.
That doesn't mean you send in the Sopranos to clear a seat for your employees. That crap should have been settled before the plane even boarded. Can't the desk people count?
No they cant
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No they cant
COmputers and all that sh*t and they can't figure out how many seats on the plane are full? Maybe the TSA people can count naughty bits or something.
I am curious about one thing. Which line do the 'transgendered' get in to get patted down?
I think I'll just keep my shoes on and drive. Sad, too, i used to love to fly.
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I don't believe this was actually United, but a regional airline. And depending on who did the removal, they might not even be liable at all. But zero chance I go beyond five figures. Maybe $20k if you really push it. You have to be very conscious of the possibility of people causing problems in the hope of cashing in. You want people, in the future, to comply when ordered to leave.
Legally, the only issue is going to be the manner in which he was removed. The right to remove him - by force if necessary - would be something a judge would instruct a jury that they must take as fact. If it even got to a jury with respect the the airline.
At the outset, I'd offer medical bills, an equal amount in pain/suffering. But I'd really have to see some serious risk of real liability before getting even into five figures.
The CEO of United (not a regional airlines), Oscar Munoz, has apologized for the incident.
Also....
The officer involved was placed on administrative leave effective Monday pending review of the situation, the department said.
Apparently, the airlines "right to bump" in the manner they chose is in question. There goes your theory.....
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/united-ceo-apologizes-after-video-shows-man-dragged-off-flight/ar-BBzFbry?li=BBnb7Kz
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COmputers and all that sh*t and they can't figure out how many seats on the plane are full? Maybe the TSA people can count naughty bits or something.
I am curious about one thing. Which line do the 'transgendered' get in to get patted down?
I think I'll just keep my shoes on and drive. Sad, too, i used to love to fly.
The only part I loved was the takeoff. Loved the speed and lift-off. Never did like the landing part. Considering the major hassle it has become, I can definitely do without it.
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COmputers and all that sh*t and they can't figure out how many seats on the plane are full? Maybe the TSA people can count naughty bits or something.
I am curious about one thing. Which line do the 'transgendered' get in to get patted down?
I think I'll just keep my shoes on and drive. Sad, too, i used to love to fly.
My sister's new Chevy Cruz tells her if she left a package in the backseat when she gets out. When we were sitting in the restaurant yesterday her car called to ask if she left it unlocked on purpose or would she like to lock now. Seems like the airlines could manage that kind of tech.
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Dem wants hearing after United passenger dragged off flight
By Olivia Beavers - 04/10/17 07:02 PM EDT
Del. Eleanor Holmes Norton (D-D.C.), a senior member of the Transportation and Infrastructure Committee, is calling for a hearing the forceful removal of a United Airlines passenger from an overbooked flight.
“I deplore the violent removal of a passenger from a United Airlines flight this weekend,” Norton said in a statement Monday. “Airline passengers must have protections against such abusive treatment.
"I am asking our committee for a hearing, which will allow us to question airport police, United Airlines personnel, and airport officials, among others, about whether appropriate procedures were in place in Chicago and are in place across the United States when passengers are asked to leave a flight,” she continued.
<..snip..>
http://thehill.com/policy/transportation/328196-dem-wants-hearing-after-united-passenger-dragged-off-flight (http://thehill.com/policy/transportation/328196-dem-wants-hearing-after-united-passenger-dragged-off-flight)
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Great...Just what Congress needs, more committees and more hearings. [yawn]
That guy's reaction was bizarre bordering on insanity. You could easily think that he was being carried off to his execution. People are expelled all the time for many reasons. It is not something so unusual.
I wonder what the real reason was for this passenger's extreme tantrum. There must something else to it which we do not know.
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COmputers and all that sh*t and they can't figure out how many seats on the plane are full? Maybe the TSA people can count naughty bits or something.
I am curious about one thing. Which line do the 'transgendered' get in to get patted down?
I think I'll just keep my shoes on and drive. Sad, too, i used to love to fly.
7
I was on a plane Friday night. They were counting seats. Two per had the same name and seat. Confused the back outta them.
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Great...Just what Congress needs, more committees and more hearings. [yawn]
That guy's reaction was bizarre bordering on insanity. You could easily think that he was being carried off to his execution. People are expelled all the time for many reasons. It is not something so unusual.
I wonder what the real reason was for this passenger's extreme tantrum. There must something else to it which we do not know.
My thoughts exactly. That guy freaked out way beyond proportion.
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So much flat out stupidity.
UA could have rented a van or maybe even have chartered a small plane to get their people to Louisville for the comp they were offering.
Herr @don-o . Dont be angry mit der polezei.. Only following orders!!!
(https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--q5KAEpti--/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/nqp7q1iu2kxdloy6juzl.png)
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United CEO apologizes for having to ‘re-accommodate’ customers after passenger dragged off flight
http://thehill.com/policy/transportation/328129-united-ceo-apologizes-for-having-to-re-accommodate-customers-after
Twitter is destroying United.
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My thoughts exactly. That guy freaked out way beyond proportion.
Besides, Louisville is easily reachable. He could have taken the money and would have been home watching Tv before the damn flight even arrived at the airport.
I think he was confused about what the issue. He didn't understand and his reaction was based on simple ignorance.
He thought he was being arrested by the government. IMO
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This doctor appears to have been treated with very statist tactics.
Nope -- never did, and don't have a penny invested in them. Just flown enough to know the rules about bumping. And I have zero sympathy for a drama queen who gets dragged off because he refuses to follow the rules to which he agreed.
Never been tossed off a flight, or even close to it. Then again, I'm not a demanding guy.
The real problem is that a lot of people want cheap air travel, yet want to be treated as if they're getting something else. Options for more luxurious travel -- business class or first class -- generally are available. But most people don't want to pay for that, so they get what they are willing to pay for.
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This doctor appears to have been treated with very statist tactics.
Now now
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnO9Jyz82Ps
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Twitter is destroying United.
Like twitter ever mattered in anything.
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Oh, loads of people have been removed from flights, for everything from hijacking attempts to attempted bombings to just plain wigging out.
That doesn't mean you send in the Sopranos to clear a seat for your employees. That crap should have been settled before the plane even boarded. Can't the desk people count?
Airlines have too much of an incentive to bump customers. Raise the bump fee to $15K to straighten this out. $25K for United . The memes on twitter are going crazy.
https://twitter.com/hashtag/unitedairlines?f=tweets&vertical=news&src=hash
Something about this incident brings out the righteous libertarian in me- which is increasingly rare these days.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C9F7VxAWsAQjRLi.jpg)
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Like twitter ever mattered in anything.
We shall see.
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Now now
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnO9Jyz82Ps
What we have here.....
888high58888
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We shall see.
It's facebook for thumb fairies.
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Yes Sensei . We wont let cheap underclass folks keep their cheap tickets.
They will PAY!!! With blood.
I don't know how wealthy he'll be.
Assuming his ticket was like most tickets, it said that he could be bumped. There are even express laws regulating when passengers can be bumped involuntarily, the required compensation, etc. United didn't just make this up on their own. And airlines are within their legal rights to have passengers who refuse to be removed, removed involuntarily by police or contractors. Normally, companies are willing to settle claims that hurt their image, but there is a real issue with precedent here. If this guy gets tossed a pot of money, then you're going to see a lot of other passengers refuse to comply when ordered to deplane. It may have the perverse effect of encouraging more confrontations. So, speaking as a lawyer, this is one of those situations where you would encourage your client to fight it out -- at least for awhile.
I'd point out that those crew members were very likely heading to be the crew on a different plane. If they did not make that flight, then an entire other flight would have to be cancelled, and all those people delayed.
Bottom line is that you simply do not have a legal right to refuse to deplane when ordered to do so. This guy apparently believed that the rules that applied to everyone else don't apply to him, so he refused. He found out that he's no better than anyone else. Honestly, I have absolutely zero sympathy for this guy. You were told to leave, so leave. Is that really so hard?
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Now now
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnO9Jyz82Ps
I know I am to the only person on the board that feels this way.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C9GCfcNXsAUnf-M.jpg)
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C9GB3Z8UMAA7BLr.jpg)
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C9GB3YBUMAAmIHP.jpg)
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C9F_573XYAAL7JQ.jpg:large)
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Update: Chicago police confirm incident on United flight, statement claims bloodied 69-year-old man "fell"
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C9F_xZuUIAAdkZx.jpg)
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When the bid got to $1600, the United Manager laughed in the passengers FACE.
Discovery will interesting for this 'Manager'
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C9FWFS1UIAA0der.jpg)
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I know I am to the only person on the board that feels this way.
Surely you don't need an irony tag from me.
The goons should have to drug test after a caper like this.
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Will not post this graphic. I have editorial standards and do not want upset the proprietor!!
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C9GDdLUVYAACJUd.jpg:large
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C9GED1uXgAE71LE.jpg)
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Update: Chicago police confirm incident on United flight, statement claims bloodied 69-year-old man "fell"
They sound like the abusive husband explaining the battered wife's two black eyes---"She bumped into
the door when I was opening it."
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So much flat out stupidity.
UA could have rented a van or maybe even have chartered a small plane to get their people to Louisville for the comp they were offering.
@don-o
They wouldn't have to charter a small plane---they have a regional "commuter" arm operated by
a number of small regional carriers flying under "United Express" colours. Including ExpressJet,
whose cities include Chicago and Louisville.
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@don-o
They wouldn't have to charter a small plane---they have a regional "commuter" arm operated by
a number of small regional carriers flying under "United Express" colours. Including ExpressJet,
whose cities include Chicago and Louisville.
Sure.
A problem solving flow chart that has a box for "manhandle passenger" might need to be rethought.
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Sure.
A problem solving flow chart that has a box for "manhandle passenger" might need to be rethought.
Years ago, United nicknamed their planes "Mainliners."
Now they'll have to call them "Flatliners?"
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Best Parody of the year, easily.
The Kettle Drums. The French Horns. The violins.
Choice!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2S9T505hVY&feature=youtu.be
@don-o
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Just wait until ultra-high speed rail becomes common place. Hope those pencil-d__'s remember their customer service attitudes then.
Per this article, by 2030 expect 220 mph trains between large metro areas, and 110 mph ones radiating from major hubs.
http://www.ushsr.com/ushsrmap.html (http://www.ushsr.com/ushsrmap.html)
Jerry Brown, is that you? :)
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I'm thinking upping the amount United was willing to pay for a passenger to deplane was going to be a whole lot cheaper than what they'll be forking over to this gentleman.
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Jerry Brown, is that you? :)
18 posts here and you are insulting me? Where in this thread did I endorsee that taxpayers fund this?
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I'm thinking upping the amount United was willing to pay for a passenger to deplane was going to be a whole lot cheaper than what they'll be forking over to this gentleman.
Exactly. Maybe $25K for United per passenger. Saw an article where over 3400 hundred booked United passengers were summarily booted off their flights. There needs to be disincentives built in to make United 'volunteer' to not treat its customers like chattle.
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I'm thinking upping the amount United was willing to pay for a passenger to deplane was going to be a whole lot cheaper than what they'll be forking over to this gentleman.
So glib , so flip are some about dumping passengers. Perhaps United should be broken up - anti-trust.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C9GZgIpV0AArpZI.jpg:large)
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Here's how airlines like United determine who gets kicked off a flight (http://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/travel-troubles/91434244/heres-how-airlines-like-united-determine-who-gets-kicked-off-a-flight)
For interest, if nothing else.
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Best Parody of the year, easily.
The Kettle Drums. The French Horns. The violins.
Choice!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2S9T505hVY&feature=youtu.be
@don-o
Yikes is right. Can't wait to see the SNL version....lol.
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My thoughts exactly. That guy freaked out way beyond proportion.
I don't know what sort of doctor he is. There are things that are time sensitive, or that take getting together a team of doctors to accomplish (transplant surgeries, for example) where him being where he said he would be is critical to a favorable outcome. It may even involve a relative.
What seems like overreaction to us may be a poorly expressed understanding of the situation by him. Without knowing more, I won't judge except to say he really did not want to get off the flight. Without knowing his motivation, knowing whether his reaction is "excessive" is impossible.
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I may be the only one who feels this way, but his behavior was utterly irrational. Forget for a moment how United handled the situation, which was by all means flawed, but think for a moment how he handled it. He behaved like a disturbed, unreasonable, lunatic. At one point he was muttering, "Kill me! Kill me!" Do you really want that person on your flight? What would he have done if the plane hits turbulence, or if a fellow passenger made him angry?
Apparently, he was willing to die to stay on that flight. If his meeting in the morning was as important as he claimed, then why would he be willing to die? How is that rational? Wouldn't he miss the meeting if he was dead? The man is mentally unstable. Or maybe he had some mission oriented reason that he absolutely MUST be on only that very specific flight. Either case is scary, and it is good that he was removed. IMO
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I may be the only one who feels this way, but his behavior was utterly irrational. Forget for a moment how United handled the situation, which was by all means flawed, but think for a moment how he handled it. He behaved like a disturbed, unreasonable, lunatic. At one point he was muttering, "Kill me! Kill me!" Do you really want that person on your flight? What would he have done if the plane hits turbulence, or if a fellow passenger made him angry?
Apparently, he was willing to die to stay on that flight. If his meeting in the morning was as important as he claimed, then why would he be willing to die? How is that rational? Wouldn't he miss the meeting if he was dead? The man is mentally unstable. Or maybe he had some mission oriented reason that he absolutely MUST be on only that very specific flight. Either case is scary, and it is good that he was removed. IMO
Like I said, we don't know why he found it so desperately necessary to take that flight. It could have been anything from marital difficulties to scheduled surgery on a relative or loved one to paying his bookie on time. We. Don't. Know.
Ordinarily quiet and collected people in extreme situations we might be completely unaware of can be pushed that last inch across the line when their plans to deal with things get derailed, and for some it will seem like the end of the world. For others it may be the end of theirs.
I'm not going to rush to judgement, because virtually anyone can be pushed to that point in a moment of desperation.
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Like I said, we don't know why he found it so desperately necessary to take that flight. It could have been anything from marital difficulties to scheduled surgery on a relative or loved one to paying his bookie on time. We. Don't. Know.
Ordinarily quiet and collected people in extreme situations we might be completely unaware of can be pushed that last inch across the line when their plans to deal with things get derailed, and for some it will seem like the end of the world. For others it may be the end of theirs.
I'm not going to rush to judgement, because virtually anyone can be pushed to that point in a moment of desperation.
You make a very good and cogent argument. I agree with everything you said.
However, any situation can change in a second. It happens to all of us, especially to Doctors.
When I face a new and unexpected negative development, I face it, and figure out what I have to do to fix it, or to work around it. Which is exactly what I would expect from a Doctor.
If this had happened to me, all I would be doing is thinking about the dozen or so ways available to get there by morning. It was doable. Louisville is not that far away. But I would never throw a screaming tantrum and get into a violent fight with three police officers. That's not how normal people behave.
It is true that he may have been on the brink of a breakdown, and this situation was the trigger. That's what I meant in my previous post.
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You make a very good and cogent argument. I agree with everything you said.
However, any situation can change in a second. It happens to all of us, especially to Doctors.
When I face a new and unexpected negative development, I face it, and figure out what I have to do to fix it, or to work around it. Which is exactly what I would expect from a Doctor.
If this had happened to me, all I would be doing is thinking about the dozen or so ways available to get there by morning. It was doable. Louisville is not that far away. But I would never throw a screaming tantrum and get into a violent fight with three police officers. That's not how normal people behave.
It is true that he may have been on the brink of a breakdown, and this situation was the trigger. That's what I meant in my previous post.
I would have figured out if I could cash in the ticket, the hotel room, and find a one-way car rental. Checked truck stops, trains, bus schedules, whatever, and found a way. But then, this guy is settled in, on rails, everything is taken care of (possibly by someone else) and already home, mentally (just my .02 guess). He may have been really looking forward to this. Someone threw a brick through his window, and his vision of the immediate future shattered, and he panicked.
He may not have the logistical survival skills to get from point A to point B.
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I would have figured out if I could cash in the ticket, the hotel room, and find a one-way car rental. Checked truck stops, trains, bus schedules, whatever, and found a way. But then, this guy is settled in, on rails, everything is taken care of (possibly by someone else) and already home, mentally (just my .02 guess). He may have been really looking forward to this. Someone threw a brick through his window, and his vision of the immediate future shattered, and he panicked.
He may not have the logistical survival skills to get from point A to point B.
The FAA should take away two gates per month from this airline (At Random! ) , until it is dead.
Anti-Trust. Increase competition to eliminate these type of adhesion contracts-- the conservative solution.
If we dont get ahead of this, the donks are going to have a field day.
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Have never seen Kimmel before. Parody at the the end is also good.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HV28_ENzFog&oref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DHV28_ENzFog&has_verified=1
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And now China is saying the passenger was "targeted" because he is Chinese. (Sigh!)
http://www.statesman.com/business/united-passenger-removal-sparks-outrage-china/9fKGP9GeDK5GeSAOc6TDiI/
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And now China is saying the passenger was "targeted" because he is Chinese. (Sigh!)
http://www.statesman.com/business/united-passenger-removal-sparks-outrage-china/9fKGP9GeDK5GeSAOc6TDiI/
Lots of Chinese folks on twitter are generating heavy volume on this issue. Non-Chinese were thrown off the plane as well. But the optics look very bad.
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And now China is saying the passenger was "targeted" because he is Chinese. (Sigh!)
http://www.statesman.com/business/united-passenger-removal-sparks-outrage-china/9fKGP9GeDK5GeSAOc6TDiI/
As noted above, if this is going to be made about coercion, Asian countries can just pull United Gates out of airports.
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I would have figured out if I could cash in the ticket, the hotel room, and find a one-way car rental. Checked truck stops, trains, bus schedules, whatever, and found a way. But then, this guy is settled in, on rails, everything is taken care of (possibly by someone else) and already home, mentally (just my .02 guess). He may have been really looking forward to this. Someone threw a brick through his window, and his vision of the immediate future shattered, and he panicked.
He may not have the logistical survival skills to get from point A to point B.
@Smokin Joe
Most people would. Throw in tight schedules, crowded airports, dirty conditions, high cost, sleep deprivation and rude airline representatives and people do stupid stuff.
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@Smokin Joe
Most people would. Throw in tight schedules, crowded airports, dirty conditions, high cost, sleep deprivation and rude airline representatives and people do stupid stuff.
The part of all this I'm not hearing and the conversation has shied away from is just why he was so desperate to keep that seat.
I think there may be some answers there, but either that question isn't getting asked, or no one wants to give the answer.
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That crap should have been settled before the plane even boarded. Can't the desk people count?
I think that was the biggest mistake made in the first place. Don't ever put more customers on the plane than you are willing to fly with.
When they didn't get the volunteers they needed, even after upping the compensation, start calling the "random" selected people to the counter. Ask to see their ticket, don't give it back; never let them on the plane. If they throw a fit, it doesn't happen on the plane.
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I think that was the biggest mistake made in the first place. Don't ever put more customers on the plane than you are willing to fly with.
When they didn't get the volunteers they needed, even after upping the compensation, start calling the "random" selected people to the counter. Ask to see their ticket, don't give it back; never let them on the plane. If they throw a fit, it doesn't happen on the plane.
Agreed. I think the airlines think there are more people like an old friend of mine.
30 years ago, he would book a flight around Christmas, and allow himself to be bumped a half dozen times. Back then, they used to give a free flight to anywhere when bumped. With his one day stunt, he pretty much flew free the following year for all his vacations, and his wife.
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Here's how airlines like United determine who gets kicked off a flight (http://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/travel-troubles/91434244/heres-how-airlines-like-united-determine-who-gets-kicked-off-a-flight)
For interest, if nothing else.
"What happened with United was exceedingly rare," aviation analyst Henry Harteveldt said.
Translation: Yeah, the industry has done that before...
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When I face a new and unexpected negative development, I face it, and figure out what I have to do to fix it, or to work around it. Which is exactly what I would expect from a Doctor.
While United didn't help their business with this event, I suspect the same for the Doctor. I would not want this guy doing surgery on me, or trust his snap judgement.
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New United Slogans:
If we can’t seat you, we will beat you.
We have an offer you can’t refuse. No really.
We put the hospital into hospitality.
Board as a doctor, leave as a patient.
You carry on, we carry you off.
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People want flights to be as cheap as possible. Well, that requires things like overbooking, bumping, etc.. When you buy a ticket, you are told that if it is overbooked, you may be bumped involuntarily. That's part of the deal when you buy a ticket. Generally, you can pay more and not be subject to bumping. This guy should have gotten off the plane when directed to do so, and if the cops had to drag him off to obtain compliance with the terms of the ticket, that's on him.
I was taken off an international flight once due to overbooking while traveling business.
Had been on road for a month and not pleased.
Upon return home, I complained and the airline sent its head of North American operations to meet me and apologize. They had made a computer mistake. Got a lot of compensation including free flights and upgrades.
Since I was on foreign soil traveling with the country's national airline, thought it prudent not to complain at the time.
I knew my limitations.
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Transportation Committee Dem Wants Hearing on United Airlines Incident
By Bridget Johnson April 10, 2017
WASHINGTON -- It didn't take long for the viral video of a United Airlines passenger being forcibly dragged off an overbooked plane to make it to Capitol Hill.
D.C. Delegate Eleanor Holmes Norton (D), a member of the House Transportation and Infrastructure Subcommittee on Aviation, said she's going to formally ask Bill Shuster (R-Pa.), chairman of the Transportation Committee, and Aviation Subcommittee Chairman Frank LoBiondo (R-N.J.) to convene a hearing "to examine this and other incidents on flights.”
more
https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/2017/04/10/transportation-committee-dem-wants-hearing-on-united-airlines-incident/
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As long as they can finance it without any taxpayer dollars, fine.
I have zero desire to have my tax dollars used to placate people with a train fetish.
I am not fine with it.
The private company would use eminent domain given them by the state and take over thousands of acres of private land.
That is not good for those who own land along route, and we would feel like that passenger being dragged off the plane.
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New United Slogans:
We put the hospital into hospitality.
:mauslaff:
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Maybe he smelled a potential payday (lawsuit). I'm just amazed that they're (United Airlines) so blasé about their colossal incompetence re: overbooking. It's not rocket surgery...keeping track of how many seats are booked. Ironic.... that this guy claims to be a doctor.... also famous for 'overbooking'....lol.
that is not the way it works.
Their goal is full planes. There are invariably no shows, and statistics are kept that give them ideas of how many there are.
When more show up than expected, they must deal with it by the rules of carriage.
This is in fact more complicated than you state. Not rocket surgery (whatever that is) but sophisticated statistics.
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While United didn't help their business with this event, I suspect the same for the Doctor. I would not want this guy doing surgery on me, or trust his snap judgement.
True.
I wouldn't trust this guy to be my landscaper, much less my surgeon. He seems like a hair-trigger lunatic. Could you imagine having to 'let him go' (fire) him for some reason? You would need police protection to get him out of his office.
Even if United relented and let him keep his seat, would he have been likely to have continued to disrupt the flight in the air? Would anyone want to take that risk?
Also, even if he made it to work the next morning, would he have been in a stable enough mental state to be able to perform his duties? I wouldn't want him to be my Doctor.
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I understand overbooking, but why did they have to actually kick someone off the plane? that I don't get.
United gets what they deserve with this, IMO.
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I understand overbooking, but why did they have to actually kick someone off the plane? that I don't get.
United gets what they deserve with this, IMO.
Yep. My contention (and Northwest did this when I flew them), is that the issue of who had seats should have been settled before anyone boarded the aircraft. Waiting until people are on the plane and ready to go was just stupid on the part of airline personnel. There should be some software indicator to the person issuing boarding passes that they have reached the limit, or are approaching it.
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(https://scontent-dft4-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/17634826_10213038924190781_792243797628269360_n.jpg?oh=a48c7380ccf98218ed752b2fcb4433c4&oe=59850EA9)
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Yep. My contention (and Northwest did this when I flew them), is that the issue of who had seats should have been settled before anyone boarded the aircraft. Waiting until people are on the plane and ready to go was just stupid on the part of airline personnel. There should be some software indicator to the person issuing boarding passes that they have reached the limit, or are approaching it.
Also don't some Airlines deem some passengers "stand-by" status? With real time cancellations, and changes this seems a more safer and equitable manner of dealing with overbooking
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I don't know what sort of doctor he is. There are things that are time sensitive, or that take getting together a team of doctors to accomplish (transplant surgeries, for example) where him being where he said he would be is critical to a favorable outcome. It may even involve a relative.
What seems like overreaction to us may be a poorly expressed understanding of the situation by him. Without knowing more, I won't judge except to say he really did not want to get off the flight. Without knowing his motivation, knowing whether his reaction is "excessive" is impossible.
Turns out the guy, David Dao, has a dozen drug related raps and has had his medical license yanked by the AMA.
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Then pay up for the 'tail events'. Otherwise start taking gates away from United. Two per month.
Create some competition in this oligopoly.
Not rocket surgery (whatever that is) but sophisticated statistics.
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Turns out the guy, David Dao, has a dozen drug related raps and has had his medical license yanked by the AMA.
Wow, those P.I's hired by UA must be pretty good finding that out that quick.
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Turns out the guy, David Dao, has a dozen drug related raps and has had his medical license yanked by the AMA.
Got a link please?
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Got a link please?
Here's one. It broke on TMZ...
http://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/local/2017/04/11/david-dao-passenger-removed-united-flight-doctor-troubled-past/100318320/?hootPostID=d36ec6c0be57d7c0080839c4936d4285
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:beer: Thank you. Reading now.
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I am not fine with it.
The private company would use eminent domain given them by the state and take over thousands of acres of private land.
That is not good for those who own land along route, and we would feel like that passenger being dragged off the plane.
Eminent domain has been used to build a great many roads in this country. The people moved very often didn't like it, but should we not have those roads?
As long as the compensation is fair, and the rail line is considered a common carrier that the paying public has a legal right to use, it is something that is specifically authorized by the Constitution.
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http://www.lifezette.com/referral/kimmel-debuts-new-commercial-united-resist-will-beat/?utm_content=bufferddc9e&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=laura_ingraham_buffer
Kimmel Debuts a New Commercial for United: ‘If You Resist, We Will Beat You’
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Here's one. It broke on TMZ...
http://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/local/2017/04/11/david-dao-passenger-removed-united-flight-doctor-troubled-past/100318320/?hootPostID=d36ec6c0be57d7c0080839c4936d4285
Now, it all makes sense. Dude very likely thought he was getting busted (again) for a drug offense, and that this was just a police scam to get him off the plane. Of course, the police are legally entitled to remove you either way, so that doesn't excuse his behavior.
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Yep. My contention (and Northwest did this when I flew them), is that the issue of who had seats should have been settled before anyone boarded the aircraft. Waiting until people are on the plane and ready to go was just stupid on the part of airline personnel. There should be some software indicator to the person issuing boarding passes that they have reached the limit, or are approaching it.
But who did this guy give up his seat for? Why did they have preference over him?
I don't get it.
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The guy is in for a big payday, deservedly so.
I hope he's not a doctor, though. His reaction in this situation was less than rational.
@skeeter
Agreed.
I don't expect high-pitched shrieking from a grown man.
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Now, it all makes sense. Dude very likely thought he was getting busted (again) for a drug offense, and that this was just a police scam to get him off the plane. Of course, the police are legally entitled to remove you either way, so that doesn't excuse his behavior.
If he's using himself it certainly would explain his erratic behavior.
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I was taken off an international flight once due to overbooking while traveling business.
Had been on road for a month and not pleased.
Upon return home, I complained and the airline sent its head of North American operations to meet me and apologize. They had made a computer mistake. Got a lot of compensation including free flights and upgrades.
Since I was on foreign soil traveling with the country's national airline, thought it prudent not to complain at the time.
I knew my limitations.
In a lot of ways, this is similar to the innocent guy who the cops come to arrest, who refuses to go and fights with them, rather than just going and getting the mess cleared up later. You have to use your discretion sometimes.
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But who did this guy give up his seat for? Why did they have preference over him?
I don't get it.
Positioning crew. They have priority since if they don't get to the airport, their plane doesn't fly, inconveniencing a hell of a lot more than 1 person. Often replacement crews can't be planned for in advance, since aircraft very rarely give notice of when they are going to fail and push their current operating crew out of hours.
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Here's one. It broke on TMZ...
http://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/local/2017/04/11/david-dao-passenger-removed-united-flight-doctor-troubled-past/100318320/?hootPostID=d36ec6c0be57d7c0080839c4936d4285
"He can only practice internal medicine in an outpatient facility one day a week." Assuming any of that is true, it's pretty clear he could not reschedule. And irrelevant anyway - if you screw up moving employees around, don't steal seats, pay up and you'll get volunteers. If they didn't pay in crappy unusable vouchers (with quick expiration and lots of blackout dates) maybe they might have more success.
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Positioning crew. They have priority since if they don't get to the airport, their plane doesn't fly, inconveniencing a hell of a lot more than 1 person. Often replacement crews can't be planned for in advance, since aircraft very rarely give notice of when they are going to fail and push their current operating crew out of hours.
Thank you for this @EC. Interesting.
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If he's using himself it certainly would explain his erratic behavior.
Sure would.
It'll be interesting to see how this plays out when this story gets out there. My guess is that more people will start to think "you know, maybe he just should have done as asked", etc.. And while it shouldn't affect his ability to sue given that it's an old enough felony conviction that it would likely be excludable at trial, it makes him a much less attractive plaintiff for an attorney.
Like I said...offer the guy his medical bills and maybe a bit more, and that's it. His behavior should not be rewarded.
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Thank you for this @EC. Interesting.
No prob. Wife's been a stewardess since '95. Not commented much on this as conditions of carriage are substantially different on this side of the pond and I didn't want to make mistakes.
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If he's using himself it certainly would explain his erratic behavior.
Hmmm...
If the AMA pulled his license, it will be interesting to find out who these so called patients were that were missing their appointment.
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Hmmm...
If the AMA pulled his license, it will be interesting to find out who these so called patients were that were missing their appointment.
He got it back (with restrictions) in 2015.
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Well this explains everything..
(https://scontent-dft4-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/17862503_1582406705120128_2160582988974593004_n.jpg?oh=56adc4144ebcc55391626a1cda39ee73&oe=5992436F)
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Yep. My contention (and Northwest did this when I flew them), is that the issue of who had seats should have been settled before anyone boarded the aircraft. Waiting until people are on the plane and ready to go was just stupid on the part of airline personnel. There should be some software indicator to the person issuing boarding passes that they have reached the limit, or are approaching it.
@Smokin Joe
I've heard that United didn't have the right to remove him after he was seated. I looked at United's contract of carriage, and it really doesn't specify either way. However, the language used in the text always refers to "passengers denied boarding" because of overbooking, which implies that the bumping should have taken place before the doctor took his seat.
If it had been me, I'd have kept my butt right in that seat and made them remove me, then called a lawyer.
https://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/contract-of-carriage.aspx?Mobile=1#sec25 (https://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/contract-of-carriage.aspx?Mobile=1#sec25)
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Well this explains everything..
(https://scontent-dft4-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/17862503_1582406705120128_2160582988974593004_n.jpg?oh=56adc4144ebcc55391626a1cda39ee73&oe=5992436F)
@AbaraXas
@Cripplecreek
LMAO!
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(http://static.boredpanda.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/united-airlines-internet-reactions-6.gif)
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Twitter is destroying United.
@LonestarDream
What's funny is that Southwest Airlines is all over United's Twitter timeline, snatching up customers right and left.
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(http://static.boredpanda.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/united-airlines-internet-reactions-8.jpg)
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that is not the way it works.
Their goal is full planes. There are invariably no shows, and statistics are kept that give them ideas of how many there are.
When more show up than expected, they must deal with it by the rules of carriage.
This is in fact more complicated than you state. Not rocket surgery (whatever that is) but sophisticated statistics.
LMAO! Sophisticated statistics, eh? Well... I guess that I'm just not sophisticated enough to appreciate the finer points of United's abilities to accomplish FUBAR status [rolling eyes].
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(http://static.boredpanda.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/58ec8d8c9f2b0_rn8Edsm__700.jpg)
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@LonestarDream
What's funny is that Southwest Airlines is all over United's Twitter timeline, snatching up customers right and left.
It is funny. Hope to see more competition. United reacted in a very glib way.
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The CEO made a ridiculously arrogant statement. Oligarchy is right. Did we give these dirtbags money after 9/11?
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Well this explains everything..
(https://scontent-dft4-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/17862503_1582406705120128_2160582988974593004_n.jpg?oh=56adc4144ebcc55391626a1cda39ee73&oe=5992436F)
LMFAO!!!!
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LMAO! Sophisticated statistics, eh? Well... I guess that I'm just not sophisticated enough to appreciate the finer points of United's abilities to accomplish FUBAR status [rolling eyes].
rolling you eyes and pleading ignorance is so childish.
No matter how many time you do it, you will get zero effect.
If you wish to appreciate statistical business modeling in its finest form, go visit a casino.
And you did not explain what rocket surgery is yet either.
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Uh, no.
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Yes, we need a hearing on why a convicted felon drug dealer acted like a jackass when asked to leave a plane.
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United Airlines really should stop getting customer service tips from Comcast.
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Eminent domain has been used to build a great many roads in this country. The people moved very often didn't like it, but should we not have those roads?
As long as the compensation is fair, and the rail line is considered a common carrier that the paying public has a legal right to use, it is something that is specifically authorized by the Constitution.
you must not have property along the route. I do, a 90 year old family farm. I do not wish to see it split up.
We just last year had to absorb a pipeline ROW across it as the company threatened to seize it via ED.
Until the ED laws are changed by the legislation currently befoRe the legislature, the laws favors the company, not the landowner.
Are you equating a publicly built road with a profit-making hi speed rail as to use of ED?
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Turns out the guy, David Dao, has a dozen drug related raps and has had his medical license yanked by the AMA.
Which proves he is a doctor as said license has been reinstated.
Perhaps it is time dig up dirt on the United CEO and his ENTIRE family.
Four out five of Dr Dao's five children surveyed are doctors!
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Perhaps it is time dig up dirt on the United CEO and his ENTIRE family.
Not to mention the flight crew.....
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-A2elNEypqBM/Vt8PBrd_WII/AAAAAAAAc6I/WeWfEtzJ3r0/s1600/images-2.jpeg)
(http://weknowmemes.com/generator/uploads/generated/g140601504936364930.jpg)
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Eminent domain has been used to build a great many roads in this country. The people moved very often didn't like it, but should we not have those roads?
As long as the compensation is fair, and the rail line is considered a common carrier that the paying public has a legal right to use, it is something that is specifically authorized by the Constitution.
No different than a common carrier pipeline, or electrical utility.
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rolling you eyes and pleading ignorance is so childish.
No matter how many time you do it, you will get zero effect.
If you wish to appreciate statistical business modeling in its finest form, go visit a casino.
And you did not explain what rocket surgery is yet either.
L M A O !!!
You're a riot.
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Do that on some loaded crude oil hauler pulling a pup and it's gonna get messy. Plenty of those in this neck of the woods.
Not to worry, I now stand corrected. The 79 speed limit is due to a federal regulation based on whether or not the railroad has cab signals in place.
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I hope United, or the people who treated him, saved some of his blood for drug testing. He very well could have been drugged up, and had a bad trip. Although it was a random accident, it could be a good thing that they pulled him before the flight. Dangerous to self and others.
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My sister's new Chevy Cruz tells her if she left a package in the backseat when she gets out. When we were sitting in the restaurant yesterday her car called to ask if she left it unlocked on purpose or would she like to lock now. Seems like the airlines could manage that kind of tech.
This, this right here is why people aren't getting married.
"Yes I left you unlocked deary, no ethanol for you tonight." :smokin:
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SOURCE: NEW YORK POST
URL: http://nypost.com/2017/04/11/doctor-dragged-off-flight-convicted-of-trading-drugs-for-sex/ (http://nypost.com/2017/04/11/doctor-dragged-off-flight-convicted-of-trading-drugs-for-sex/)
By Natalie Musumeci
(https://thenypost.files.wordpress.com/2017/04/united3.jpg?quality=90&strip=all&w=664&h=441&crop=1)
The United Airlines passenger who was hauled off an overbooked plane is a poker-playing doctor from Kentucky with a sordid past.
Dr. David Dao, 69, who was captured in a now viral video being forcibly dragged off the Louisville, Ky-bound flight at Chicago O’Hare Airport on Sunday, was working as a doctor specializing in pulmonary disease in Elizabethtown when he was convicted of trading prescription drugs for sex favors.
According to documents filed with the Kentucky Board of Medical Licensure, Dao was arrested in 2003 on the drug-related offenses following an undercover investigation.
The board’s probe into the criminal charges found that Dao became sexually interested in a male patient, Brian Case, who he gave a physical examination to, including a genital examination, and then eventually made the man his office manager.
Case then quit that job due to “inappropriate” remarks made by Dao, who then pursued him and arranged to give him prescription drugs in exchange for sexual acts, the documents, filed last year, state.
In 2004, Dao was convicted on a slew of felony counts of obtaining drugs by fraud or deceit and was later placed on five years of supervised probation, the newspaper reported.
Dao and co-defendant Case, identified in the documents by the state medical board as “Patient A,” were both indicted in the case.
The medical board said that Dao had a sexual relationship with Case and supplied him with narcotics while Case was his patient. The two would often meet at hotel rooms.
The two allegedly worked together to obtain prescription narcotics at several pharmacies over three years, according to reports.
The Kentucky Board of Medical Licensure permitted Dao to continue practicing medicine in 2015 under certain conditions, after he completed his probation and underwent psychological evaluations, the Courier-Journal reported.
(EXCERPT ONLY) CLICK ABOVE LINK FOR THE REST
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UNITED AIRLINES IS STILL WRONG REGARDLESS OF THE CHARACTER OF THE PASSENGER.
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(https://scontent-dft4-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/17634826_10213038924190781_792243797628269360_n.jpg?oh=a48c7380ccf98218ed752b2fcb4433c4&oe=59850EA9)
LOL
Actually, if I have to fly, I will choose Southwest over any other carrier -- unless my destination is not served by Southwest. Never had a problem with this airline. They treat customers like human beings, not cattle.
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This thing already wreeks of a bad Made for TV movie.
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Which proves he is a doctor as said license has been reinstated.
Perhaps it is time dig up dirt on the United CEO and his ENTIRE family.
The reason that is relevant to some of us is that we see his behavior as irrational, and couldn't quite understand why he might have acted as he did. This somewhat explains it.
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Over a decade ago and his license was partially restored where he could practice.
IE, irrelevant information that clouds the specifics of what happened yesterday.
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LOL
Actually, if I have to fly, I will choose Southwest over any other carrier -- unless my destination is not served by Southwest. Never had a problem with this airline. They treat customers like human beings, not cattle.
You gotta be kidding. Southwest doesn't assign seats, passengers line up at the jetway door in the order they show up, then take their seats based on where they are in the line. If you want a decent seat, you're standing at least 30 minutes.
I've called them "Cattle-Car Airlines." My company insists on SWA, and I hate it.
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I last flew jetblue in 2009. Got my own seats (2 empties!), and satellite TV. Easy flight I ever took.
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So this means he wasn't drug off the plane screaming like a girl?
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You gotta be kidding. Southwest doesn't assign seats, passengers line up at the jetway door in the order they show up, then take their seats based on where they are in the line. If you want a decent seat, you're standing at least 30 minutes.
I've called them "Cattle-Car Airlines." My company insists on SWA, and I hate it.
a
My family likes them for exactly those reasons. We are always early and get rewarded for it.
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You gotta be kidding. Southwest doesn't assign seats, passengers line up at the jetway door in the order they show up, then take their seats based on where they are in the line. If you want a decent seat, you're standing at least 30 minutes.
I've called them "Cattle-Car Airlines." My company insists on SWA, and I hate it.
Well, I carry a cane, so SW treats me as disabled and lets me board with the wheelchair bound, passengers with children, and business class.
What you can do is get your spot in line ahead of time. You can check in online 24 hours before takeoff. You can also spring for Early Bird Check-In. Under this plan, the airline checks you in and you can retrieve and print your boarding pass at any time before your flight. Early Bird check-in doesn't guarantee you will be in the first boarding group, but whenever I used this feature, I always was in the first group.
Not sure why you would have to stand in line for hours to get a good seat. At one time, SW gave seats on a first come, first served basis, but I haven't seen that done for several years.
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I almost always fly American as my initial connection at least due to the podunk small town airport I fly out of only has American Eagle. They've been OK. They fee you to death and you can no longer get free upgrades no matter how many miles you have. But the people are nice and I haven't lost a bag or been bumped in years minus one incident where there was a tornado going through my destination so the flight was canceled but the bags were sent on an earlier flight.
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I last flew jetblue in 2009. Got my own seats (2 empties!), and satellite TV. Easy flight I ever took.
Used to like Jet Blue, but the airline scaled back service in the Pittsburgh market. Can't fly direct, nonstop to most cities. Wouldn't mind if I was traveling cross-country, but a nonstop to Philadelphia would take maybe an hour and change. Having to make connections would take a few hours. Ridiculous.
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Unless he was doing it on the plane at the time I don't see what it has to do with anything.
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Good grief, did United retain the services of Roger Stone or something?
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Well, I carry a cane, so SW treats me as disabled and lets me board with the wheelchair bound, passengers with children, and business class.
What you can do is get your spot in line ahead of time. You can check in online 24 hours before takeoff. You can also spring for Early Bird Check-In. Under this plan, the airline checks you in and you can retrieve and print your boarding pass at any time before your flight. Early Bird check-in doesn't guarantee you will be in the first boarding group, but whenever I used this feature, I always was in the first group.
Not sure why you would have to stand in line for hours to get a good seat. At one time, SW gave seats on a first come, first served basis, but I haven't seen that done for several years.
I believe you, because I haven't flown anywhere since 2002. TSA is too much of a hassle. I flew sometimes because my wife would want to drive to visit her sister in a place that's two day's drive. I'd drive up there with her, fly home, and fly back up there to meet her a week or two later for the drive home.
Single guy, just carry-on (no checked bags), so I'd get the full treatment every time. Really pissed me off. And this was before the back-scatter scans.
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My wife has pretty bad claustrophobia, and freaks out if feeling trapped on a plane. Southwest has always treated her like absolute gold -- extremely considerate, etc..
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Unless he was doing it on the plane at the time I don't see what it has to do with anything.
It is impossible to know if he was doing it on the plane. He could easily have been taking drugs at the time. He certainly behaved like he was on drugs.
There is speculation that he thought he was being arrested again. That is why he flipped out and fought the Cops.
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L M A O !!!
You're a riot.
coming from someone who knows what rocket surgery is, that is quite telling.
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coming from someone who knows what rocket surgery is, that is quite telling.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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No different than a common carrier pipeline, or electrical utility.
ED right now favors greatly the company, not the landowner.
I attended one of these sessions and it is frightening how little say so the landowner has. http://www.texansforpropertyrights.com
As an example, the state deems certain companies as those who can use ED statute to condemn; based upon criteria of usage, company screening, the way it handles disputes, etc. However, right now those companies can assign those rights to other companies to use that are unapproved to use ED by the state.
Another one is the inability of a landowner to recoup legal costs in ED valuation, even if the landowner wins.
Current legislation before Texas legislature will reign in that and other abuses.
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As an example, the state deems certain companies as those who can use ED statute to condemn; based upon criteria of usage, company screening, the way it handles disputes, etc. However, right now those companies can assign those rights to other companies to use that are unapproved to use ED by the state.
That's wrong.
Another one is the inability of a landowner to recoup legal costs in ED valuation, even if the landowner wins.
So is that.
Current legislation before Texas legislature will reign in that and other abuses.
That's good, although it won't affect federal ED. But assuming those things are corrected...we still need ED.
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Update, the cop who drug him off has been placed on leave.
http://thelibertarianrepublic.com/chicago-cop-put-leave-dragging-asian-man-off-united-flight/
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So nice to see how quickly the press can dig up HIPAA protected medical information on this guy...
...but nothing on Hillary.
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So nice to see how quickly the press can dig up HIPAA protected medical information on this guy...
...but nothing on Hillary.
??
Felonies aren't HIPAA protected. Nor are they medical information.
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So nice to see how quickly the press can dig up HIPAA protected medical information on this guy...
...but nothing on Hillary.
It's not HIPAA protected information. Public records on convictions, and likely the same with his license suspension. HIPAA doesn't really protect specific information as much as it protects disclosure from/by certain sources of information.
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So nice to see how quickly the press can dig up HIPAA protected medical information on this guy...
...but nothing on Hillary.
HIPPA is a patient for protection of patient information. Not so much for the Doctors.
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KY board of medical licensure documents here (http://www.cscmediagroupus.com/robert-zerfing/doctor-united-airlines-legal-history). HIPAA is irrelevant to these documents.
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I flew Delta last week. A horrible experience. They have cut capacity down to the point they cannot recover if they have a disruption. It was taking people some people 3 to 5 days extra to get home and Delta wasn't paying for hotels or food.
I am of the opinion that the fix for this is to change the involuntary bumping formula.
If bumped and arrive at your destination up to 1 hr late = no refund
arrive up to 2 hrs late = 50% of one way ticket price
for ever 2 hrs after = +50% of one way ticket price
For example - $200 one way / $400 round trip ticket
1 hr late after involuntary bump - 0$
2 hr late - $100
4 hr late - $200
6 hr late - $300
12 hrs - $600
etc
No limit or cap
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@jmyrlefuller
Good grief, did United retain the services of Roger Stone or something?
It is important to understand here that United was perfectly within its legal rights to do what they did -- bump him, ask him to leave, and call the cops to remove him involuntarily if he refused. A lot of the outrage is ignoring that basic fact.
The problem for United is if they pussyfoot on this, they risk endorsing/encouraging a false public perception that you have the right to refuse to be bumped. And if people come to believe that, United would be buying themselves a whole boatload of future trouble from surly passengers refusing to move, and generating more of these incidents. Maybe including by some people who hope to generate their own perceived six-figure windfall through physical resistance.
It is surely a public relations nightmare for them, and the CEO should probably do a better job of pointing out 1) the legal obligation to move if told to do so, and 2) the fact that they called the cops, and the cops handled this.
But they can't -- and shouldn't -- back off the idea that this guy was absolutely wrong for refusing to disembark when told to do so. And if part of that PR battle is leaking that this guy is a bit shady...I can't blame them for that either.
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That's wrong.
So is that.
That's good, although it won't affect federal ED. But assuming those things are corrected...we still need ED.
I agree ED is good if for essential public services. But some are clearly not as essential as others.
Read up on the current legislation and see if you agree with it.
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@jmyrlefuller
It is important to understand here that United was perfectly within its legal rights to do what they did -- bump him, ask him to leave, and call the cops to remove him involuntarily if he refused. A lot of the outrage is ignoring that basic fact.
The problem for United is if they pussyfoot on this, they risk endorsing/encouraging a false public perception that you have the right to refuse to be bumped. And if people come to believe that, United would be buying themselves a whole boatload of future trouble from surly passengers refusing to move, and generating more of these incidents. Maybe including by some people who hope to generate their own perceived six-figure windfall through physical resistance.
It is surely a public relations nightmare for them, and the CEO should probably do a better job of pointing out 1) the legal obligation to move if told to do so, and 2) the fact that they called the cops, and the cops handled this.
But they can't -- and shouldn't -- back off the idea that this guy was absolutely wrong for refusing to disembark when told to do so. And if part of that PR battle is leaking that this guy is a bit shady...I can't blame them for that either.
This appears to be an event where nearly everyone involved, handled the situation badly:
Airline personnel allowing more passengers to board than could be flown.
Doctor throwing a childish temper-tantrum.
Cops rough handling passenger.
Stupid response from CEO...
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This appears to be an event where nearly everyone involved, handled the situation badly:
Airline personnel allowing more passengers to board than could be flown.
Doctor throwing a childish temper-tantrum.
Cops rough handling passenger.
Stupid response from CEO...
As a matter of general customer relations, kicking a paying customer off to seat company employees is bad form. That's what United is paying for now, in terms of lost revenue and the beating they're taking in the stock market (it's pretty bad. It's down almost 3% and has wiped out $600 Million from the total stock value).
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As a matter of general customer relations, kicking a paying customer off to seat company employees is bad form. That's what United is paying for now, in terms of lost revenue and the beating they're taking in the stock market (it's pretty bad. It's down almost 3% and has wiped out $600 Million from the total stock value).
Just because it may be legal doesn't make it smart.
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Just because it may be legal doesn't make it smart.
'Zackly. While the Dr. may have been a bit over the top with his screaming, United really stepped on their collective wanger on this, and deserve the punishment they're getting over it.
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As a matter of general customer relations, kicking a paying customer off to seat company employees is bad form. That's what United is paying for now, in terms of lost revenue and the beating they're taking in the stock market (it's pretty bad. It's down almost 3% and has wiped out $600 Million from the total stock value).
Except it wasn't just to seat company employees. It was to get needed crew to another airplane, so THAT plane could take off with it's full load of passengers. They weren't going on holiday.
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As a matter of general customer relations, kicking a paying customer off to seat company employees is bad form.
I accept that possibility buying a "discounted" ticket. There are compensations offered. But I think it is a really bad idea to let passengers board before making the decision they cannot fly on that flight. Math isn't that hard. If there are four seats needed and the plane is fully booked, four people should not get past the gate. Handle the situation before boarding all.
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But who did this guy give up his seat for? Why did they have preference over him?
I don't get it.
@Weird Tolkienish Figure
There was a United flight team who had to be on the plane in order to get to the location of their next plane to carry passengers. They had to be on that plane.
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Except it wasn't just to seat company employees. It was to get needed crew to another airplane, so THAT plane could take off with it's full load of passengers. They weren't going on holiday.
Then they should have boarded first. They let customers board, then threw them off. Never heard of an airline doing that.
If I were at the airline, I'd have found another way to get my flight crew to Louisville. A chauffeur could have driven them there in a van (thus avoiding the "time working" rule) and it would have been cheaper than the $800 per passenger plus hotel cost.
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Which proves he is a doctor as said license has been reinstated.
Perhaps it is time dig up dirt on the United CEO and his ENTIRE family.
Four out five of Dr Dao's five children surveyed are doctors!
It also proves the doctor is ethically challenged and is inclined to be pulling a scam.
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Then they should have boarded first. They let customers board, then threw them off. Never heard of an airline doing that.
If I were at the airline, I'd have found another way to get my flight crew to Louisville. A chauffeur could have driven them there in a van (thus avoiding the "time working" rule) and it would have been cheaper than the $800 per passenger plus hotel cost.
Counts as time working. Time working starts at report, usually 45 - 60 minutes before the flight. Flight time starts the instant pushback starts (both have legal limits and are tracked) and stops when the plane door opens after landing.
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Counts as time working. Time working starts at report, usually 45 - 60 minutes before the flight. Flight time starts the instant pushback starts (both have legal limits and are tracked) and stops when the plane door opens after landing.
Riding in a van while somebody else drives counts as time working?
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It also proves the doctor is ethically challenged and is inclined to be pulling a scam.
That would explain the over-the-top screaming.
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Riding in a van while somebody else drives counts as time working?
Yep.
Plus, the four crew members will have been pulled from standby - which means their time working clock for the 24 hour period was already running (it's a fractional rate for standby) from whenever their standby started.
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Another update.
United Airlines now under federal investigation for the incident.
http://www.mediaite.com/online/united-airlines-is-now-facing-a-federal-investigation-after-that-video/
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Here's one. It broke on TMZ...
http://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/local/2017/04/11/david-dao-passenger-removed-united-flight-doctor-troubled-past/100318320/?hootPostID=d36ec6c0be57d7c0080839c4936d4285
Reinstated with restrictions in 2015.
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Yep.
Plus, the four crew members will have been pulled from standby - which means their time working clock for the 24 hour period was already running (it's a fractional rate for standby) from whenever their standby started.
That's pretty interesting, didn't know that's how they worked the clocks. I always thought it started when they showed up at the plane they were going to fly.
I was once on a train that had issues getting to where it was supposed to, and they put the lot of us on a bus for the last 100 miles or so of our trip (but we were just civvies). It's amusing to think about, because we were hours behind schedule when we got on the bus, but were on time by the time we got to the destination. The bad PR for this has already cost them millions in the Stock Market.
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@jmyrlefuller
It is important to understand here that United was perfectly within its legal rights to do what they did -- bump him, ask him to leave, and call the cops to remove him involuntarily if he refused. A lot of the outrage is ignoring that basic fact.
The problem for United is if they pussyfoot on this, they risk endorsing/encouraging a false public perception that you have the right to refuse to be bumped. And if people come to believe that, United would be buying themselves a whole boatload of future trouble from surly passengers refusing to move, and generating more of these incidents. Maybe including by some people who hope to generate their own perceived six-figure windfall through physical resistance.
It is surely a public relations nightmare for them, and the CEO should probably do a better job of pointing out 1) the legal obligation to move if told to do so, and 2) the fact that they called the cops, and the cops handled this.
But they can't -- and shouldn't -- back off the idea that this guy was absolutely wrong for refusing to disembark when told to do so. And if part of that PR battle is leaking that this guy is a bit shady...I can't blame them for that either.
Well, there is the option to reconsider how they bump passengers from flights, and do so before they actually get on the plane. If they made a group of passengers 'standby' instead of just overbooking, they'd be happy they got on, instead of pissed they got kicked off.
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A guy sitting at an airport bar in Atlanta noticed a beautiful woman sitting next to him. He thought to himself, "Wow, she's so gorgeous she must be a flight attendant.
But which airline does she work for?" Hoping to gain her attention, he leaned towards her and uttered the Delta Slogan, "Love to fly and it shows?"
She gave him a blank, confused stare and he immediately thought to himself, "Nope, not Delta."
A moment later, another slogan popped into his head. He leaned towards her again, "Something special in the air?" She gave him the same confused look.
He mentally kicked himself, and scratched American Airlines off the list. Next he tried the Southwest slogan, "Low fares, nothing to hide?"
This time the woman savagely turned on him, "What the f*** do you want?"
The man smiled, then slumped back in his chair, and said.... "Ahhh, United Airlines!"
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It also proves the doctor is ethically challenged and is inclined to be pulling a scam.
The Doctor (per the article you linked he was reinstated in 2015) got in trouble over over prescribing prescription drugs and involvement with a former co-worker who ratted him out after she left.
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Well, there is the option to reconsider how they bump passengers from flights, and do so before they actually get on the plane. If they made a group of passengers 'standby' instead of just overbooking, they'd be happy they got on, instead of pissed they got kicked off.
In this case, it wasn't overbooked, but they had a situation where they had to get a flight crew to another airport to crew a different flight. According to @EC up thread, those kind of unplanned but necessary things sometimes happen. So it sounds like they didn't know this was going to be necessary until after everyone had boarded. And even if it was a ball being dropped somewhere, you still have to get off when asked.
It is possible that United could have handled this better with better planning. But that doesn't remotely excuse -- in my opinion -- a passenger flatly refusing to deplane when ordered to do so. To put it differently, United was within its legal rights to order him off the place, and call the cops if he refused to leave. The passenger was not within his legal rights to refuse to deplane.
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In this case, it wasn't overbooked, but they had a situation where they had to get a flight crew to another airport to crew a different flight. According to @EC up thread, those kind of unplanned but necessary things sometimes happen. So it sounds like they didn't know this was going to be necessary until after everyone had boarded. And even if it was a ball being dropped somewhere, you still have to get off when asked.
It is possible that United could have handled this better with better planning. But that doesn't remotely excuse -- in my opinion -- a passenger flatly refusing to deplane when ordered to do so. To put it differently, United was within its legal rights to order him off the place, and call the cops if he refused to leave. The passenger was not within his legal rights to refuse to deplane.
Well, if that's how it works, I'll keep driving.
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The reason that is relevant to some of us is that we see his behavior as irrational, and couldn't quite understand why he might have acted as he did. This somewhat explains it.
This scenario is the perfect illustration of the overbooking scenario and the stealing of productive time from customers on an industrial scale.
United needs to have its gates taken away on the grounds of 'moral turpitude'. Give customers a choice. Asians who want access to other airlines would use United's former gates to more effectively compete with United-- on other carriers like SW, American or Jet Blue. Or a start up.
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The Doctor (per the article you linked he was reinstated in 2015) got in trouble over over prescribing prescription drugs and involvement with a former co-worker who ratted him out after she left.
C'mon, that's a rather sanitized version of what he did. He groped a male patient, gave him lots of illegally prescribed drugs, hired him, then sexually harassed him after hiring him, all the while plying him with illegally prescribed drugs. The guy quit, told his story, and the doctor was rightfully in deep kimchee.
This doctor is an absolute creep.
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United needs to have its gates taken away on the grounds of 'moral turpitude'.
On what grounds? The law expressly provides for the involuntary bumping of passengers, and even specifies the minimum amount that must be offered. It even says that law enforcement may be called to remove noncompliant passengers. They literally did exactly what they're allowed to do under the law.
How do you take away the legally-acquitted gates from a company that complied with the law?
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Good grief, did United retain the services of Roger Stone or something?
Pretty much looks that way.
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To put it differently, United was within its legal rights to order him off the place, and call the cops if he refused to leave.
I suspect the next one will be handled differently, it it goes this far. Such as loudly announcing:
"You will not be flying to your destination on this plane today. If you will depart, the rest of the passengers will be able to do so. Until then, we all sit."
The first couple times may have long waits, but once the word gets around, and the flight attendants are called away for a few minutes...
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C'mon, that's a rather sanitized version of what he did. He groped a male patient, gave him lots of illegally prescribed drugs, hired him, then sexually harassed him after hiring him, all the while plying him with illegally prescribed drugs. The guy quit, told his story, and the doctor was rightfully in deep kimchee.
This doctor is an absolute creep.
I didn't see that in the article I read. Link that so the rest of us may be enlightened, please.
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I suspect the next one will be handled differently, it it goes this far. Such as loudly announcing:
"You will not be flying to your destination on this plane today. If you will depart, the rest of the passengers will be able to do so. Until then, we all sit."
If the guy was willing to resist to the point of being dragged out forcibly, guilt isn't going to work. He was going to stay there until that plane was in the air, or someone dragged him out by force.
The first couple times may have long waits, but once the word gets around, and the flight attendants are called away for a few minutes...
I'm not sure the old "blanket party" approach would really work here....
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I suspect the next one will be handled differently, it it goes this far. Such as loudly announcing:
"You will not be flying to your destination on this plane today. If you will depart, the rest of the passengers will be able to do so. Until then, we all sit."
The first couple times may have long waits, but once the word gets around, and the flight attendants are called away for a few minutes...
Would work in theory. But from a business persepctive do you piss off 5 people or 150 people.
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Bake the cake.
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Another update.
United Airlines now under federal investigation for the incident.
http://www.mediaite.com/online/united-airlines-is-now-facing-a-federal-investigation-after-that-video/
As they should be. Take away United gates. Two per month and give the gates to the competition.
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Would work in theory. But from a business persepctive do you piss off 5 people or 150 people.
I think the approach to use force to drag someone off the plane resulted in far more angry than those removed, or even on the whole plane.
It never should have gotten this far, but if the same point is reached again, I believe they would ask everyone off the plane before they would try to drag one out again in front of everyone else.
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As they should be. Take away United gates. Two per month and give the gates to the competition.
I think that punishment is a bit extreme. Seems to me United will already be punished by the flying public through lost revenue -- passengers looking into alternatives to United for their travel. And it's very possible, once these customers find a better alternative, they won't be coming back to United anytime soon.
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On what grounds? The law expressly provides for the involuntary bumping of passengers, and even specifies the minimum amount that must be offered. It even says that law enforcement may be called to remove noncompliant passengers. They literally did exactly what they're allowed to do under the law.
How do you take away the legally-acquitted gates from a company that complied with the law?
Anti- Trust . Airlines have an effective monopoly, depending on the geography.
Many want to boycott . Lets give folks an effective choice. Thousands of customers are being bumped. Otherwise, the dems will go back to 70s style regulation and prices will go up 5x.
And they will win this issue on pathos or the understandable sentiments of the public.
United got called on their mis-treatment in this instance. The character of this doctor (who has raised four out of five of his children to also be doctors.) is a quinary consideration or lower.
Yes @AbaraXas , this scenario has activated my libertarian DNA.
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Well, if that's how it works, I'll keep driving.
Same here. If the surly TSA agents don't piss you off, the airlines that act like they're doing you a favor by taking your money will.
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Was thinking the same thing.
I think the approach to use force to drag someone off the plane resulted in far more angry than those removed, or even on the whole plane.
It never should have gotten this far, but if the same point is reached again, I believe they would ask everyone off the plane before they would try to drag one out again in front of everyone else.
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https://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2017/04/11/my-new-ad-campaign-for-united-airlines/
My New Ad Campaign for United Airlines
excerpt:
RUSH: with William in Bozeman, Montana, a pilot with United Airlines. William, great to have you on the program, sir. Hello.
CALLER: Hey, good morning, Mr. Limbaugh. Mega airline captain dittos from God’s country. How are you doing today?
RUSH: Very, very fine. Thank you. What aircraft do you fly?
CALLER: I fly for United Express, and I fly the Embraer 170 and 175 version.
RUSH: That’s the plane involved here, isn’t it? It was a United Express flight?
CALLER: It’s the exact same thing.
RUSH: Right, okay.
CALLER: My initial thoughts on this, Mr. Limbaugh, is that people have forgotten that flying is a privilege and that with that privilege there come rules. And these are rules that are set forth by FAA, by the Transportation Security Administration, by the airlines themselves, and we have multiple venues where you can see where these rules are posted. But people choose not to do that, and then when it comes down to the point that we as crew members have to enforce these rules, we look like the bad guy.
You notice in this YouTube video, this posting, whatever it is, that they don’t show this guy being noncompliant. ‘Cause I can guarantee you half a dozen times before he was removed from the aircraft, there were crew members, there were gate agents, there were people trying to tell him respectfully, “Sir, you need to remove yourself from the aircraft.”
RUSH: Well, the impression is that when they first approached him they beat him up.
CALLER: (laughing)
RUSH: I mean, that is the impression people are left with, is he was asked to leave, he refused to, so they beat him up and then he snuck back on and then they really got mad and dragged him — (crosstalk)
CALLER: — airplane post-9/11, Mr. Limbaugh, you’re gonna get hurt. I’m sorry, there’s gonna be a plane full of people that are not gonna put up with that anymore.
RUSH: It’s interesting to look at the video you cite, the one on YouTube. You have the people that videotaped it on their phones, which, questionable legality there, but nobody’s gonna get in trouble for it. You have a lot of people that just sat there and didn’t do anything and probably, as you say, just wish whatever was going on would end so they could leave. They want —
CALLER: Yeah.
RUSH: — to get where they were going. But you’re right, there isn’t any video of the guy being roughed up. People are speculating that he got bloody in the terminal somewhere after they removed him the first time, and then ended up dragging him out of there, his face bangs up against the seats. Speculating on how the guy’s mouth ended up bloody and so forth.
CALLER: Well, you know, and to be honest with you, Mr. Limbaugh, it comes down to the fact that there are rules. And as a crew member, as an airline captain, I don’t have a choice on whether or not I’m going to enforce these rules. There were four crew members — look at the Delta incident last week and the fact that we had three, four, five, six days of rolling chaos at Delta because we couldn’t get crews to where they needed to be. So we need to have those seats open for crew members —
RUSH: That was because weather in one hub, right, Atlanta caused all that —
CALLER: It was weather for a couple days in Atlanta and then I was flying in and out of LaGuardia on the Delta side last Thursday and Friday, and it was pretty brutal there too. So rolling chaos is what that is, but at the end of the day, we have to look at the bigger picture and we have to move crew members from point A to point B so that, like you said earlier, we can start tomorrow fresh with a fresh airplane, a fresh crew that’s well rested so that we can provide a service for eight, 10, 12 flights that are gonna be happening that the next day, which is going to impact hundreds, if not thousands, of passengers.
RUSH: Now, it looks like the United CEO or the United corporate is really focusing on the fact the passenger was belligerent and that, therefore, justifies or explains — once a passenger goes belligerent, gets unruly, that’s the end of tolerance, you get ’em out of there.
CALLER: You know, there’s kind of a little saying that noncompliance on the ground becomes a huge deal at altitude, right? When we sit there and we bring people on board and we’re gonna bring ’em up to seven miles above the earth and fly at four-fifths the speed of sound, there’s not a whole lot of — there’s virtually no tolerance at that point. If you’re going to make a big deal of something minor on the ground, who knows what’s gonna happen when you get in the air.
Who knows if you’re gonna order a beer from one of my flight attendants and now that’s just enough liquid courage that you’re now beating on the cockpit door. We have to take this stuff very, very seriously, because it has to do with the lives and the safety of the people on that aircraft and the lives and the safety of people who are on the ground. And it’s a zero-sum game. There is no tolerance.
RUSH: William, thank you. I’m out of time, but I appreciate that. That’s William from Bozeman, Montana. He’s a pilot for United, flies the same airplane involved in this episode.
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I think the approach to use force to drag someone off the plane resulted in far more angry than those removed, or even on the whole plane.
It never should have gotten this far, but if the same point is reached again, I believe they would ask everyone off the plane before they would try to drag one out again in front of everyone else.
So you are on a business trip from Houston to Dallas, sit at the gate 2 hours, and miss that meeting? Not so sure about that.
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Same here. If the surly TSA agents don't piss you off, the airlines that act like they're doing you a favor by taking your money will.
@Cyber Liberty
@Smokin Joe
Third. Dana Loesch went off on a great rant today, comparing the airlines bumping passengers to a restaurant manager coming to your table, pushing you off the chair, and eating your food. Yet the airlines get away with it.
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That will be the next thing. Take away all the phones and laptops- so the 'official' version is the only version.
Rush ought to be careful about condemning drug users 'at altitude'
Perhaps his flight 'privileges' are next.
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@mystery-ak
Flying is a "privilege?"
It's that kind of attitude that results in lost customers. While I get what William is saying, I don't think too many people would consider flying to be a privilege, at least not since 9/11
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So you are on a business trip from Houston to Dallas, sit at the gate 2 hours, and miss that meeting? Not so sure about that.
@thackney is right. At least the United employees would have been spared the ire of the other fliers.
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That will be the next thing. Take away all the phones and laptops- so the 'official' version is the only version.
Rush ought to be careful about condemning drug users 'at altitude'
Perhaps his flight 'privileges' are next.
Rush has his own plane..
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Rush has his own plane..
THAT is an UBER privilege . Should his plane 'malfunction' , then others could be harmed.
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Anti- Trust .
I'm guessing here that you're not all that familiar with antitrust law, and how it is enforced....
Yes @AbaraXas , this scenario has activated my libertarian DNA.
Libertarians generally believe in the sanctity of private contracts. This doctor chose to violate his end of it.
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I'm guessing here that you're not all that familiar with antitrust law, and how it is enforced....
Libertarians generally believe in the sanctity of private contracts. This doctor chose to violate his end of it.
It is very simple. United/Continental/ABCEFG....
Break it up. Reverse the consolidation that has been going on the industry.
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Rush has his own plane..
True enough. The cops were fine with waiting for him on the ground.
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So you are on a business trip from Houston to Dallas, sit at the gate 2 hours, and miss that meeting? Not so sure about that.
I feel rather confident in the next six months, none of the major airlines are going to forceably drag someone off. Too much bad publicity.
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In this case, it wasn't overbooked, but they had a situation where they had to get a flight crew to another airport to crew a different flight. According to @EC up thread, those kind of unplanned but necessary things sometimes happen. So it sounds like they didn't know this was going to be necessary until after everyone had boarded. And even if it was a ball being dropped somewhere, you still have to get off when asked.
It is possible that United could have handled this better with better planning. But that doesn't remotely excuse -- in my opinion -- a passenger flatly refusing to deplane when ordered to do so. To put it differently, United was within its legal rights to order him off the place, and call the cops if he refused to leave. The passenger was not within his legal rights to refuse to deplane.
So, since the law states that the passenger is REQUIRED to deplane, what would someone like Justice Gorsuch do if the case were brought before him?
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Libertarians generally believe in the sanctity of private contracts. This doctor chose to violate his end of it.
Not necessarily. There was a question up-thread, and one worth asking, regarding pulling him off after he boarded. The contract (for all intents and purposes) says one can be denied entry, he was already granted entry when he was forced from his seat. Was it a justifiable removal based on his contract is the question and one that I'm sure United is sweating over right now.
The Libertarian in me says, like many others said, that they should have kept bidding up the offer for someone to give up their seat. Everyone has a price.
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@mystery-ak
Flying is a "privilege?"
It's that kind of attitude that results in lost customers. While I get what William is saying, I don't think too many people would consider flying to be a privilege, at least not since 9/11
It certainly isn't a right. Do you want to take away the airlines ability to throw someone off the plane?
While I get we don't like it when it is "us" thrown off, we darn sure want them to throw off someone making threats or significantly disrupting the flight.
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I feel rather confident in the next six months, none of the major airlines are going to forceably drag someone off. Too much bad publicity.
I agree. I expect them to completely unload the plane and start over, minus the bumped passengers.
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The Libertarian in me says, like many others said, that they should have kept bidding up the offer for someone to give up their seat. Everyone has a price.
That may cost more than unloading everybody (I doubt it, slipping the schedule by the amount of time that would take may have costs), but I like it more. $800! Plus Hotel and likely free tix. I'd have gone for it. But my wife says I always went cheaply. :tongue2:
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New response from United:
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Not necessarily. There was a question up-thread, and one worth asking, regarding pulling him off after he boarded. The contract (for all intents and purposes) says one can be denied entry, he was already granted entry when he was forced from his seat. Was it a justifiable removal based on his contract is the question and one that I'm sure United is sweating over right now.
The Libertarian in me says, like many others said, that they should have kept bidding up the offer for someone to give up their seat. Everyone has a price.
Yes. The sense of authoritarianism bothers me. Here in NYC, only the 'privileged' get to drive.
As a general theme, the government would love to stack us all up in big cities and limit our mobility.
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It certainly isn't a right. Do you want to take away the airlines ability to throw someone off the plane?
While I get we don't like it when it is "us" thrown off, we darn sure want them to throw off someone making threats or significantly disrupting the flight.
In this instance the passenger in question was orderly and following his end of the bargain.
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New response from United:
This was the response the "Communicator of the Year" should have sent the first time.
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In this instance the passenger in question was orderly and following his end of the bargain.
No. His end of the bargain includes following instruction from the crew.
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It certainly isn't a right. Do you want to take away the airlines ability to throw someone off the plane?
While I get we don't like it when it is "us" thrown off, we darn sure want them to throw off someone making threats or significantly disrupting the flight.
I didn't say anything of the sort. I was just amused by the word "privilege."
For many years US Airways and it's predecessors had a near monopoly on flights to and from Pittsburgh. And they treated their passengers like they should be "privileged" that US Airways would transport them to where they wanted to go. I had more than a few encounters with surly US Airways employees. One even involved airport security. And it seemed these unpleasant encounters always seemed to occur after the latest union contract was negotiated. The employees were angry that thru had to give concessions, but instead of sending their grievances to management, they would take out their anger on the passengers.
Well, US Airways lost its ability to be lords and masters over their passengers when Peoples Express and other cut-rate airlines sprang up in the 1980s. Got worse when Southwest, Jet Blue and others started cutting into the US Airways monopoly. Passengers were lured by the cheaper fares, of course, but they stayed with these newer airlines because these carriers knew the meaning of "customer service." Now, US Airways could have realized what was going on and maybe made changes to counter the inroads of these other carriers. But they didn't. US Airways continued to treat their passengers like dirt, then wondered why they were losing money and customers.
US Airways was eventually absorbed by American Airlines, but I have yet to fly with American. I sure hope American learned the lessons on customer service that US Airways did not.
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It certainly isn't a right. Do you want to take away the airlines ability to throw someone off the plane?
While I get we don't like it when it is "us" thrown off, we darn sure want them to throw off someone making threats or significantly disrupting the flight.
Planes are like ships - those authorities running them have always necessarily demanded complete compliance of those on board.
The rules governing relationships in a normal setting where the individual can exercise certain rights over the authorities do not apply.
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This was the response the "Communicator of the Year" should have sent the first time.
Funny how one billion in lost market cap changed his tone. Take away his gates.
United Market leverage and their dominance in gate coverage is a much larger and capricious 'privilege'
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Well said.
I didn't say anything of the sort. I was just amused by the word "privilege."
For many years US Airways and it's predecessors had a near monopoly on flights to and from Pittsburgh. And they treated their passengers like they should be "privileged" that US Airways would transport them to where they wanted to go. I had more than a few encounters with surly US Airways employees. One even involved airport security. And it seemed these unpleasant encounters always seemed to occur after the latest union contract was negotiated. The employees were angry that thru had to give concessions, but instead of sending their grievances to management, they would take out their anger on the passengers.
Well, US Airways lost its ability to be lords and masters over their passengers when Peoples Express and other cut-rate airlines sprang up in the 1980s. Got worse when Southwest, Jet Blue and others started cutting into the US Airways monopoly. Passengers were lured by the cheaper fares, of course, but they stayed with these newer airlines because these carriers knew the meaning of "customer service." Now, US Airways could have realized what was going on and maybe made changes to counter the inroads of these other carriers. But they didn't. US Airways continued to treat their passengers like dirt, then wondered why they were losing money and customers.
US Airways was eventually absorbed by American Airlines, but I have yet to fly with American. I sure hope American learned the lessons on customer service that US Airways did not.
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This was the response the "Communicator of the Year" should have sent the first time.
I notice he apologized for everything except his own idiotic original response.
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Funny how one billion in lost market cap changed his tone. Take away his gates.
United Market leverage and their dominance in gate coverage is a much larger and capricious 'privilege'
Did it turn out to be a Billion? It was 600 Million early in the day, so a $1 Billion loss is certainly believable.
I don't know about taking gates away, that would only be good for the passengers if there were competing airlines to fill them, but they're certainly getting their butts kicked at the NYSE. That's a lot of capital to lose.
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No. His end of the bargain includes following instruction from the crew.
By this standard the whole flight should have been cancelled. The indignant blond in the video was berating LE as Dr Davo was being abused.
Additionally, the flight crew (which could have been transported on the ground or on other carriers) was berating by the 'surviving ' passengers all the way to KY.
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By this standard the whole flight should have been cancelled. The indignant blond in the video was berating LE as Dr Davo was being abused.
Additionally, the flight crew (which could have been transported on the ground or on other carriers) was berating by the 'surviving ' passengers all the way to KY.
I find it amazing that other passengers, after witnessing this spectacle, would be so bold as to push their luck.
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Did it turn out to be a Billion? It was 600 Million early in the day, so a $1 Billion loss is certainly believable.
I don't know about taking gates away, that would only be good for the passengers if there were competing airlines to fill them, but they're certainly getting their butts kicked at the NYSE. That's a lot of capital to lose.
One Billion at the low water mark. Take the gates away. Or unwind the Continental merger.
Many of us had misgivings about the Continental merger and they have come to pass.
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I find it amazing that other passengers, after witnessing this spectacle, would be so bold as to push their luck.
Glad to see there was some outrage.
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Did it turn out to be a Billion? It was 600 Million early in the day, so a $1 Billion loss is certainly believable.
I don't know about taking gates away, that would only be good for the passengers if there were competing airlines to fill them, but they're certainly getting their butts kicked at the NYSE. That's a lot of capital to lose.
@LonestarDream
No, it is down ~1%, $255 million after recovering much of the early day losses.
Shares in United Continental Holdings Inc. on Tuesday came off their worst levels, but ended off 1.1% as the airline continued to draw flak for having a passenger forcibly dragged off a plane Sunday.
United UAL wiped about $255 million off its market capitalization. The company’s market cap was $22.5 billion as of Monday’s close, according to FactSet data.
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/uniteds-stock-is-set-to-fall-5-and-wipe-1-billion-off-the-airlines-market-cap-2017-04-11
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@LonestarDream
No, it is down ~1%, $255 million after recovering much of the early day losses.
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/uniteds-stock-is-set-to-fall-5-and-wipe-1-billion-off-the-airlines-market-cap-2017-04-11
Thanks for the update. The broader market rallied in the last few hours, too.
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@LonestarDream
No, it is down ~1%, $255 million after recovering much of the early day losses.
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/uniteds-stock-is-set-to-fall-5-and-wipe-1-billion-off-the-airlines-market-cap-2017-04-11
Was referring to the low water mark. Lets take away their gates and see how their market cap holds up.
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I find it amazing that other passengers, after witnessing this spectacle, would be so bold as to push their luck.
Actually, I find that encouraging.
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(http://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/17862776_1423821284359292_4251608372877877665_n.jpg?oh=01ac6eefddb4ca69cbe48e2e9b69299c&oe=595B19F3)
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Then they should have boarded first. They let customers board, then threw them off. Never heard of an airline doing that.
'Threw them off'. Good grief, are you talking about the same incident or have you read this from somewhere else?
Nobody was thrown off.
And at times, one can be unseated. Read my earlier post.
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(http://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/s480x480/17757536_10155264270447235_3731303612882571777_n.jpg?oh=2aa490c673d7841beff8178bb163e343&oe=5997E9F7)
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I didn't realize somebody would read what I said and take me so literally. Only one person was "thrown."
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I didn't realize somebody would read what I said and take me so literally. Only one person was "thrown."
who?
Do you know tHe difference between thrown and removed?
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who?
Do you know tHe difference between thrown and removed?
Apparently not. I guess I'm stupid. But then, I don't go around thinking people mean literally "thrown" when somebody gets thrown off a plane either, so I guess maybe we're even.
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Apparently not. I guess I'm stupid. But then, I don't go around thinking people mean literally "thrown" when somebody gets thrown off a plane either, so I guess maybe we're even.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHSPf6x1Fdo
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who?
Do you know tHe difference between thrown and removed?
Yep. About half the time I threw someone out of a bar, I dragged them out, I didn't throw them. They were all removed. Technically, he wasn't thrown out, he was dragged out.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHSPf6x1Fdo
Heh. Is a Dirigible considered a "plane?"
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Yep. About half the time I threw someone out of a bar, I dragged them out, I didn't throw them. They were all removed. Technically, he wasn't thrown out, he was dragged out.
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/c5/f4/db/c5f4dbc1948e90e58662245ea42ddb17.jpg)
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(http://www.bloomberg.com/features/2016-united-airlines-struggles/img/feat_united04__01.jpg)
We are so screwed.
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(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/c5/f4/db/c5f4dbc1948e90e58662245ea42ddb17.jpg)
BLeep bleep BLEEP SqueeDOO!
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Don Guevara @DonGuevara1 14m14 minutes ago
@NC9 at 5- some passengers flying into El Paso on @united say the airline asked people to deplane bc of an over booked flight
So much for United cleaning up their act. Take their gates away.
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Christie urges Transportation Dept. to "immediately suspend" rule allowing airlines to overbook flights http://hill.cm/otK7XMd
My remedy only takes gates away from the offending airline.
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http://www.latimes.com/business/lazarus/la-fi-lazarus-united-low-priority-passenger-20170412-story.html
It’s hard to find examples of worse decision-making and customer treatment than United Airlines having a passenger dragged from an overbooked plane. But United’s shabby treatment of Geoff Fearns, including a threat to place him in handcuffs, comes close.
Fearns, 59, is president of TriPacific Capital Advisors, an Irvine investment firm that handles more than half a billion dollars in real estate holdings on behalf of public pension funds. He had to fly to Hawaii last week for a business conference.
Fearns needed to return early so he paid about $1,000 for a full-fare, first-class ticket to Los Angeles. He boarded the aircraft at Lihue Airport on the island of Kauai, took his seat and enjoyed a complimentary glass of orange juice while awaiting takeoff.
Then, as Fearns tells it, a United employee rushed onto the aircraft and informed him that he had to get off the plane.
“I asked why,” he told me. “They said the flight was overfull.”
Fearns, like the doctor at the center of that viral video from Sunday night, held his ground. He was already on plane, already seated. He shouldn’t have to disembark.
“That’s when they told me they needed the seat for somebody more important who came at the last minute,” Fearns said. “They said they have a priority list and this other person was higher on the list than me.”
LA 90: United Airlines incident
Apparently United had some mechanical troubles with the aircraft scheduled to make the flight. So the carrier swapped out that plane with a slightly smaller one with fewer first-class seats.
Suddenly it had more first-class passengers than it knew what to do with. So it turned to its “How to Screw Over Customers” handbook and determined that the one in higher standing — more miles flown, presumably — gets the seat and the other first-class passenger, even though he’s also a member of the frequent-flyer program, gets the boot.
“I understand you might bump people because a flight is full,” Fearns said. “But they didn’t say anything at the gate. I was already in the seat. And now they were telling me I had no choice. They said they’d put me in cuffs if they had to.”
You couldn’t make this up if you tried.
It shouldn’t make any difference where a passenger is seated or how much he or she paid for their ticket. But you have to admire the sheer chutzpah of United putting the arm on a full-fare, first-class traveler. If there’s anybody whose business you want to safeguard and cultivate, it’s that person.
So how could United possibly make things worse? Not to worry. This is the airline that knows how to add insult to injury.
A United employee, responding to Fearns’ complaint that he shouldn’t have to miss the flight, compromised by downgrading him to economy class and placing him in the middle seat between a married couple who were in the midst of a nasty fight and refused to be seated next to each other.
“They argued the whole way back,” Fearns recalled. “Nearly six hours. It was a lot of fun.
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(http://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/17862776_1423821284359292_4251608372877877665_n.jpg?oh=01ac6eefddb4ca69cbe48e2e9b69299c&oe=595B19F3)
Without apology ... this is funny! :laugh:
@DCPatriot
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Without apology ... this is funny! :laugh:
@DCPatriot
I must admit...I've been LMAO over that meme.
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United suing a parody website that also documents customer complaints . Wants to shut them down.
TAKE AWAY UNITED GATES.
http://mashable.com/2017/04/11/united-airlines-untied-jeremy-cooperstock/?utm_campaign=Mash-Prod-RSS-Feedburner-All-Partial&utm_cid=Mash-Prod-RSS-Feedburner-All-Partial&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter#SpqloRdCe5qP
What's This?
By Colin Daileda
United Airlines, you may have heard, is having some public relations difficulties. United Airlines does not like public relations difficulties. How do I know this?
I spoke with a man who claims to have collected tens of thousands of complaints against the airline since the '90s—and now the company is suing
him.
"It's no surprise that United would be the airline at the center of this event, given its part and parcel of United's philosophy that passengers are not human beings, even employees are not human beings," said Jeremy Cooperstock.
He was just as appalled as the next person after watching that video of police tossing a United passenger from his seat on an overbooked flight and dragging him off the plane, but I will say Cooperstock was probably far less stunned than the rest of us.
He runs a website called untied.com (read that url closely). It's something of a United parody site that also collects customer complaints directed at United and helps those customers file real complaints. The top of the site says untied.com has "collected, posted and forwarded over 30,000 complaints against United Airlines." It's been around since 1997, when Cooperstock started the site after he got one of those generic corporate responses to a complaint he filed.
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Cyber asked (EC):
"Riding in a van while somebody else drives counts as time working?"
On the railroad, it would.
A crew might be "deadheaded" from its starting location to an outlying point to bring a train back to where the crew started from. Or the job might be "one way and deadhead back" (work out, ride back).
One could deadhead in one's own car, in a cab, in a company vehicle, on a train. Whatever it took to "get there" or "get back".
On Amtrak, some jobs 'way out west are even advertised to the effect that "deadheading by aircraft" may be required! (at least they used to be)
The point is, one "goes on duty" at the home "crew base", and is under pay until he returns to that crew base, at least for "turn jobs" (jobs that go out and back in one day). There are off-duty periods involved with laying over in distant terminals...
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Don Guevara @DonGuevara1 14m14 minutes ago
@NC9 at 5- some passengers flying into El Paso on @united say the airline asked people to deplane bc of an over booked flight
So much for United cleaning up their act. Take their gates away.
This is silly. Nearly every airline overbooks. We don't need government intervention at this point. There are enough choices for the market to handle this.
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This is silly. Nearly every airline overbooks. We don't need government intervention at this point. There are enough choices for the market to handle this.
They overbook as the goal is to have a full plane and no shows will happen.
The only way to get full flights is to look at it statistically to assess probability of a no show and how many.
Some people on this thread apparently do not understand this business well enough to appreciate this.
Reminds me of planning for my daughter's wedding. They wanted x meals served at reception. We sent out invitations for more than x as we could plan for a range of no shows and we might be stuck paying for meals that would be uneaten.
Could this have resulted in some people that would not have meal if more showed up than planned? Yep, but it was unlikely based upon probabilities.
I said this earlier and it went over the head of a reader, but casinos operate with probabilities in a somewhat similar fashion, using Monte Carlo analysis.
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This is silly. Nearly every airline overbooks. We don't need government intervention at this point. There are enough choices for the market to handle this.
Not denied boarding , deplaned. Busting up the airlines is the LEAST government involved solution.
And creates a free market where none exists. Many want to boycott United , but do not have an effective choice.
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Not denied boarding , deplaned. Busting up the airlines is the LEAST government involved solution.
And creates a free market where none exists. Many want to boycott United , but do not have an effective choice.
We disagree.
Cheers!
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We get it. Make the airlines pay for the tail risk. 25K per head in United's case.
They overbook as the goal is to have a full plane and no shows will happen.
The only way to get full flights is to look at it statistically to assess probability of a no show and how many.
Some people on this thread apparently do not understand this business well enough to appreciate this.
Reminds me of planning for my daughter's wedding. They wanted x meals served at reception. We sent out invitations for more than x as we could plan for a range of no shows and we might be stuck paying for meals that would be uneaten.
Could this have resulted in some people that would not have meal if more showed up than planned? Yep, but it was unlikely based upon probabilities.
I said this earlier and it went over the head of a reader, but casinos operate with probabilities in a somewhat similar fashion, using Monte Carlo analysis.
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We disagree.
Cheers!
Alternatively, unwind the United Merger with Continental. As the time assurances were made that customers would not be taken advantage of .
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They overbook as the goal is to have a full plane and no shows will happen.
The only way to get full flights is to look at it statistically to assess probability of a no show and how many.
Some people on this thread apparently do not understand this business well enough to appreciate this.
Reminds me of planning for my daughter's wedding. They wanted x meals served at reception. We sent out invitations for more than x as we could plan for a range of no shows and we might be stuck paying for meals that would be uneaten.
Could this have resulted in some people that would not have meal if more showed up than planned? Yep, but it was unlikely based upon probabilities.
I said this earlier and it went over the head of a reader, but casinos operate with probabilities in a somewhat similar fashion, using Monte Carlo analysis.
I get what you are saying. There is a better way to deal with it. When the plane is full, put everyone else on standby. The no shows will create an opportunity to seat the standby fliers. If there are zero no-shows, then you didn't promise a seat, much less put someone in one.
The airline should know the seating arrangements on every plane, by tail number, how many of what are available, and the only time anyone would get bumped is if they have to change to a smaller plane. That would cut down on a lot of this.
The percentage of no-shows would also give the airline the flexibility to insert crew hitching a ride, or whomever they chose without bumping someone who had been told they had a seat.
It is in the optics. Put me on the plane, tell me I have a seat and I'm going where I'm going, as planned. Then tell me I'm not, and I'm not going to be happy about it. Tell me there might come an opening (before anyone boards) and let me fill it (those no-shows) and I'll be happy I got on. Presentation is key here. People are happy if they think you have done them a favor, and P.O.ed if they think you took something from them. So let them think they were done a favor rather than let them feel like they got screwed.
And sort out the passenger boarding before you put people on the plane, by class or whatever. Don't seat them and then want them to get off. That's just going to cause hard feelings.
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Alternatively, unwind the United Merger with Continental. As the time assurances were made that customers would not be taken advantage of .
Don't like United? Don't buy their tickets.
Quit trying to use government to manipulate a single company because you want them to have different business practices. That is not the role of government.
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I get what you are saying. There is a better way to deal with it. When the plane is full, put everyone else on standby. The no shows will create an opportunity to seat the standby fliers. If there are zero no-shows, then you didn't promise a seat, much less put someone in one.
The airline should know the seating arrangements on every plane, by tail number, how many of what are available, and the only time anyone would get bumped is if they have to change to a smaller plane. That would cut down on a lot of this.
The percentage of no-shows would also give the airline the flexibility to insert crew hitching a ride, or whomever they chose without bumping someone who had been told they had a seat.
It is in the optics. Put me on the plane, tell me I have a seat and I'm going where I'm going, as planned. Then tell me I'm not, and I'm not going to be happy about it. Tell me there might come an opening (before anyone boards) and let me fill it (those no-shows) and I'll be happy I got on. Presentation is key here. People are happy if they think you have done them a favor, and P.O.ed if they think you took something from them. So let them think they were done a favor rather than let them feel like they got screwed.
And sort out the passenger boarding before you put people on the plane, by class or whatever. Don't seat them and then want them to get off. That's just going to cause hard feelings.
I see your solution as plausible.
I was responding to a post that did not understand why Any airline would overbook. They do, and it is logical to do so.
How they handle overbooking is what this thread should be about instead of why.
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Don't like United? Don't buy their tickets.
Quit trying to use government to manipulate a single company because you want them to have different business practices. That is not the role of government.
Exactly right. Unless United (or any other company) engages in practices which endanger their passengers or others, how they conduct their business is up to them. If their employees are guilty of assault (excessive force), so be it, and that should be dealt with by the appropriate authorities.
The marketplace is speaking on this event, loudly. I doubt government intervention will be necessary overall. Besides, give the government that power and they'll just be armpit deep in something else they shouldn't be into.
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Don't like United? Don't buy their tickets.
Quit trying to use government to manipulate a single company because you want them to have different business practices. That is not the role of government.
that is how Southwest got its start years ago. Other airlines did things like hub and spoke, assigned seats, and SWA did it differently with great success.
And the hot pants in the 70s didn't hurt either......
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C9JEX9JVYAArv09.jpg)
Overbooked. Any volunteers?
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Don't like United? Don't buy their tickets.
Quit trying to use government to manipulate a single company because you want them to have different business practices. That is not the role of government.
People want to not buy United tickets. As the previous poster noted, some US Airways had 100% market share in the Pittsburg market. The government ALREADY intervenes capriciously. The change would be to have the government intervene less.
Instead you are advocating for higher government involvement , not me.
Where were you when Untied merged with Continental???
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As deeply troubling as the video is, analysts said, the emotional fury such incidents generate usually is fleeting, lasting a few days or weeks at most. The reality, they say, is that consumers have long put price, convenience and personal taste ahead of outrage.
And partly because of a rash of recent mergers that left the country with just four major airlines, many customers may not even have much choice. United’s 2010 tie-up with Continental allowed the company to claim more than 50 percent of passenger traffic in Houston and Newark, and to serve 1 in 3 fliers from Washington Dulles International Airport and in San Francisco.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/crisis-experts-to-united-this-too-shall-pass/2017/04/11/3550be86-1ec9-11e7-a0a7-8b2a45e3dc84_story.html?tid=ss_tw&utm_term=.2da5fdc7c075
Take away the gates that were ill gained from the 2010 intervention.
Or the dems will set prices like they did in the 1970s.
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Want a quick bite to eat? Well, I am the only game in town!!! :smokin:
(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS_TprBlwLjnQVT13PSbiT-tTKlokvI3cCMufRPDWjQ9BILz4aroA)
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(https://img.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2017/04/2300.jpg)
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Lyrics
Some people say a man is made outta mud
A poor man's made outta muscle and blood
Muscle and blood and skin and bones
A mind that's a-weak and a back that's strong
You load sixteen tons, what do you get?
Another day older and deeper in debt
Saint Peter don't you call me 'cause I can't go
I owe my soul to the company store
I was born one mornin' when the sun didn't shine
I picked up my shovel and I walked to the mine
I loaded sixteen tons of number nine coal
And the straw boss said "Well, a-bless my soul"
You load sixteen tons, what do you get?
Another day older and deeper in debt
Saint Peter don't you call me 'cause I can't go
I owe my soul to the company store
I was born one mornin', it was drizzlin' rain
Fightin' and trouble are my middle name
I was raised in the canebrake by an ol' mama lion
Can't no-a high-toned woman make me walk the line
You load sixteen tons, what do you get?
Another day older and deeper in debt
Saint Peter don't you call me 'cause I can't go
I owe my soul to the company store
If you see me comin', better step aside
A lotta men didn't, a lotta men died
One fist of iron, the other of steel
If the right one don't a-get you, then the left one will
You load sixteen tons, what do you get?
Another day older and deeper in debt
Saint Peter don't you call me 'cause I can't go
I owe my soul to the company store
Captive customer base == Life Crushing prices and treatment. Concept been around for a while
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTCen9-RELM
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They overbook as the goal is to have a full plane and no shows will happen.
The only way to get full flights is to look at it statistically to assess probability of a no show and how many.
Some people on this thread apparently do not understand this business well enough to appreciate this.
Reminds me of planning for my daughter's wedding. They wanted x meals served at reception. We sent out invitations for more than x as we could plan for a range of no shows and we might be stuck paying for meals that would be uneaten.
Could this have resulted in some people that would not have meal if more showed up than planned? Yep, but it was unlikely based upon probabilities.
I said this earlier and it went over the head of a reader, but casinos operate with probabilities in a somewhat similar fashion, using Monte Carlo analysis.
@IsailedawayfromFR
You're missing some important considerations. Airlines do their best to operate full flights. They do this knowing there will be weather, crew, and plane problems. WHEN, not if, those problems occur they lack the capacity to handle their passenger load. This leaves passengers in a very bad position.
It is not unreasonable to expect a service to be delivered as promised. Some airports have atrocious rates for on time flights, say around 50% of flights after 4pm are delayed or canceled.
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This is silly. Nearly every airline overbooks. We don't need government intervention at this point. There are enough choices for the market to handle this.
@thackney
No there are not enough choices. Depends on the airport but there is not enough competition.
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@thackney
No there are not enough choices. Depends on the airport but there is not enough competition.
United is less than 15% of the domestic air travel market. It is FAR from a monopoly.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/250577/domestic-market-share-of-leading-us-airlines/
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United is less than 15% of the domestic air travel market. It is FAR from a monopoly.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/250577/domestic-market-share-of-leading-us-airlines/
In some locations, like ours, SWA is getting pretty close. Counting IAH and HOU, what is their domestic terminal space sq. footage percentage? I'd bet it is near 50%
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I'm all for the freemarket but overbooking is a form of fraud IMO.
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United is less than 15% of the domestic air travel market. It is FAR from a monopoly.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/250577/domestic-market-share-of-leading-us-airlines/
Irrelevant stat. Have to go by market hub by city. See above. Also, airlines have been caught fixing prices in the past were there are two or three dominant players in a market. They signal price increase in intentions through reservation systems.
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In some locations, like ours, SWA is getting pretty close. Counting IAH and HOU, what is their domestic terminal space sq. footage percentage? I'd bet it is near 50%
It is. And that is before the price collusion starts with others.
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What are your rights when an airline overbooks? See the article I've posted as a separate thread (http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,258185.msg1289042.html#new).
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In some locations, like ours, SWA is getting pretty close. Counting IAH and HOU, what is their domestic terminal space sq. footage percentage? I'd bet it is near 50%
WASHINGTON, March 17— The Justice Department settled an antitrust suit today against six major airlines that agreed to changes in a computerized reservation system the Government said was used to fix air fares.
Without admitting or denying the accusation, the airlines -- American Airlines, Delta Air Lines, Continental Airlines, Northwest Airlines, Trans World Airlines and Alaska Airlines -- agreed to end the practice of communicating proposed fare increases to each other through the computerized system maintained by the Airline Tariff Publishing Company. The company, owned by a group of airlines including the six named in the lawsuit, was also named and agreed to the settlement.
http://www.nytimes.com/1994/03/18/business/six-airlines-settle-suit-by-government-on-fares.html
Market power has never been more concentrated. And price and capacity collusion likely continue.
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WASHINGTON, March 17— The Justice Department settled an antitrust suit today against six major airlines that agreed to changes in a computerized reservation system the Government said was used to fix air fares.
Without admitting or denying the accusation, the airlines -- American Airlines, Delta Air Lines, Continental Airlines, Northwest Airlines, Trans World Airlines and Alaska Airlines -- agreed to end the practice of communicating proposed fare increases to each other through the computerized system maintained by the Airline Tariff Publishing Company. The company, owned by a group of airlines including the six named in the lawsuit, was also named and agreed to the settlement.
http://www.nytimes.com/1994/03/18/business/six-airlines-settle-suit-by-government-on-fares.html
Market power has never been more concentrated. And price and capacity collusion likely continue.
you bring out a 20 year old article that contains airlines that no longer exist to prove a point?
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you bring out a 20 year old article that contains airlines that no longer exist to prove a point?
I think the point is made that he had to go back twenty years to find...
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United is less than 15% of the domestic air travel market. It is FAR from a monopoly.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/250577/domestic-market-share-of-leading-us-airlines/
@thackney
Using 2016 numbers four airlines have 68.8% of the market. If you include the small airlines which have operating agreements with those four the number rises to 80.4%. In some markets there are no options. This morning on Foxnews Chris Christy said United has 70% of the market in New Jersey.
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@thackney
Using 2016 numbers four airlines have 68.8% of the market. If you include the small airlines which have operating agreements with those four the number rises to 80.4%. In some markets there are no options. This morning on Foxnews Chris Christy said United has 70% of the market in New Jersey.
Four different airlines. And fact that many small airlines effective compete with them shows the claim to be silly.
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Four different airlines. And fact that many small airlines effective compete with them shows the claim to be silly.
80% of the market is good competition?
you'd make a good lobbyist for the airlines.
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80% of the market is good competition?
you'd make a good lobbyist for the airlines.
FOUR DIFFERENT companies.
Four competing companies.
Not a monopoly.
Do you make similar claims for similar percentages of automobile sales?
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you bring out a 20 year old article that contains airlines that no longer exist to prove a point?
Yes . The signalling has been going on for a long time.
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This is highly concentrated market power. Especially given that one or two carries dominate by hub.
I think Delta has ATL for example .
@driftdiver . While not a boiling issue compared to North Korea, there is no free market in airline travel.
And there are now luxury buses that compare favorably to air travel. We are regressing.
FOUR DIFFERENT companies.
Four competing companies.
Not a monopoly.
Do you make similar claims for similar percentages of automobile sales?
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80% of the market is good competition?
you'd make a good lobbyist for the airlines.
http://fortune.com/2016/10/30/airlines-price-fixing-lawsuit/
A federal judge rejected a bid by the four largest U.S. airlines to dismiss nationwide antitrust litigation by passengers who accused them of conspiring to raise fares by keeping seating capacity artificially low.
In a decision late Friday afternoon, U.S. District Judge Colleen Kollar-Kotelly said she could "reasonably infer the existence of a conspiracy" among American Airlines Group (aal, +2.19%), Delta Air Lines (dal, +2.41%), Southwest Airlines (luv, +2.25%) and United Continental Holdings (ual, +0.21%) to fix prices.
Kollar-Kotelly, who sits in Washington, D.C., did not rule on the merits of the proposed class-action case, which combines 105 lawsuits filed around the country and seeks triple damages.
The U.S. Department of Justice last year began its own probe into a possible conspiracy among the airlines, which, according to government data, command a roughly 69-percent domestic market share.
Passengers claimed that the conspiracy began in early 2009, and has resulted in higher fares and reduced flight choices.
American Airlines Plane Engine Flung Debris in Rare, Risky Failure
They said the conspiracy, together with low fuel prices and higher fees for checking bags and other services, helped the airlines post a record $21.7 billion combined profit in 2015.
The airlines said the litigation should be dismissed because there was no proof of an agreement to collude, or that they reduced capacity in tandem.
But in her 41-page decision, Kollar-Kotelly pointed to statements by several airline executives about the need for "discipline" in seating capacity.
"Starting in 2009, the industry experienced limited capacity growth," the judge wrote. "Notably, as defendants' executives acknowledged, this restriction on growing capacity was a marked change within the industry. The court is satisfied that at this stage, plaintiffs sufficiently pled parallel conduct."
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FOUR DIFFERENT companies.
Four competing companies.
Not a monopoly.
Do you make similar claims for similar percentages of automobile sales?
Four companies dominate the US as a whole, but in their individual markets they're pretty close to monopolies, especially for business travel where you aren't going to take the time for an extra hop just to save a few hundred dollars.
A friend lived in Minneapolis, and then moved to ND. He still flies NWA, just now with an extra flight and at about half the price. The same flight now costs much less if he first takes another flight on the same airline?
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FOUR DIFFERENT companies.
Four competing companies.
Not a monopoly.
Do you make similar claims for similar percentages of automobile sales?
@thackney
Four companies but is there competition? Not much; each of these airlines uses pretty much the same planes, provides the same level of services, same pricing structure, same seat size and the same policy for booting customers it capriciously decides are not convenient to provide agreed upon services for.
So the only realistic market forces these companies are subject too is public opinion resulting from events such as this fiasco. Folks like you seem to think customer feedback is childish and we should just take what we are given or stay home.
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@thackney
Four companies but is there competition?
Yes, I see that as competition. If price fixing or other occurs, prosecute them to the full extent of the law. But four different companies provides competition.
Not much; each of these airlines uses pretty much the same planes, provides the same level of services, same pricing structure, same seat size and the same policy for booting customers it capriciously decides are not convenient to provide agreed upon services for.
Are you really surprised a highly competitive market, where the consumer spending thousands of dollars to fly a family, does internet searches to save $5 on flight choices, results in similar equipment and methods in a mature market?
So the only realistic market forces these companies are subject too is public opinion resulting from events such as this fiasco. Folks like you seem to think customer feedback is childish and we should just take what we are given or stay home.
Customer feedback is great. Don't just accept you have to fly on United because you don't.
My argument on this thread is this is not an event requiring a government solution.
I don't fly often anymore. Recently we chose to make a 9 hour drive (+9 hours back) over flying for a short weekend trip. But in the past I've had multiple years of flying over 100,000 miles per year.
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@thackney
Then you speak from ignorance. Flying today is a much worse experience then flying even just 4 years ago.
I used to be able to dependably fly to Dallas and be there for an 830am meeting.
Today that trip takes a day. Flights are regularly delayed and canceled. During one period flying from Dulles to Tampa 8 of 10 flights I took were delayed at least 2 hours or canceled.
My company travels frequently. In the last year there has not been a single trip (out of about 75) where at least one person did not have flight issues.
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@thackney
Then you speak from ignorance.
I fly nearly every year. I just don't do it as often as I used to.
Flying today is a much worse experience then flying even just 4 years ago.
Agreed. And government is a significant part of that problem. Quit looking to them to be the solution.
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I fly nearly every year. I just don't do it as often as I used to.
Agreed. And government is a significant part of that problem. Quit looking to them to be the solution.
Please show where I suggested the government is the solution? They are the problem, the govt allowed the current non-competitive environment and police state tactics used in air travel. Govt regulators (aka ex & future airline employees) are not interested in the traveler, only in the airlines.
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Please show where I suggested the government is the solution? They are the problem, the govt allowed the current non-competitive environment and police state tactics used in air travel. Govt regulators (aka ex & future airline employees) are not interested in the traveler, only in the airlines.
If you are not looking for a government based solution with four major and several minor companies not being enough competition, can you better explain what change you want made that does not involve the government?
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If you are not looking for a government based solution with four major and several minor companies not being enough competition, can you better explain what change you want made that does not involve the government?
We already have a quasi government run airline system. Dr Dao has made that IMMINENTLY clear.
That you would drive NINE hours instead of flying is the most powerful indictment made on this thread of our quasi government run airline system.
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We already have a quasi government run airline system. Dr Dao has made that IMMINENTLY clear.
That you would drive NINE hours instead of flying is the most powerful indictment made on this thread of our quasi government run airline system.
That's nothing...I've driven from coast-to-coast to avoid dealing with TSA and surly flight attendants.
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If you are not looking for a government based solution with four major and several minor companies not being enough competition, can you better explain what change you want made that does not involve the government?
1. Remove the pseudo law enforcement status of the airline employees
2. Remove the government protections from airlines for failing to provide adequate treatment to passengers
3. Prevent the airlines from hiring govt officials, and prevent govt agencies from hiring airline people
4. Stop collusion between the airlines and govt regulatory beaucrats
5. Apply current consumer laws to air travel tickets. e.g. if you buy a ticket and they don't deliver as promised you get a refund
6. Accurately track and publicize flight schedule data. For example if 50% of an airlines flights after 4pm from LaGuardia are significantly delayed or canceled the airline should be required to publicize it to purchasers.
Just a start
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That's nothing...I've driven from coast-to-coast to avoid dealing with TSA and surly flight attendants.
I havent driven coast to coast yet but Im getting there. Tampa to Dallas is now a drive-able trip as its only 17 hours. Last week two of us made the trip, on the way out the flights were only slightly delayed so that trip took about 10 hours door to door. The return took 14 for me and 35 hours for my employee.
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United is suing the website untied, to stop untied from publishing United's malfeasance .
http://www.untied.com/main.shtml
We collected, posted, and forwarded over 30,000 complaints against United Airlines. United is trying to shut down this site.
Please donate to our legal defense fund to help us continue fighting the airline.
1. Remove the pseudo law enforcement status of the airline employees
2. Remove the government protections from airlines for failing to provide adequate treatment to passengers
3. Prevent the airlines from hiring govt officials, and prevent govt agencies from hiring airline people
4. Stop collusion between the airlines and govt regulatory beaucrats
5. Apply current consumer laws to air travel tickets. e.g. if you buy a ticket and they don't deliver as promised you get a refund
6. Accurately track and publicize flight schedule data. For example if 50% of an airlines flights after 4pm from LaGuardia are significantly delayed or canceled the airline should be required to publicize it to purchasers.
Just a start
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That's nothing...I've driven from coast-to-coast to avoid dealing with TSA and surly flight attendants.
Yeah , well. I crossed the Arctic circle, barefoot, uphill both ways-- instead of flying to Germany.
:smokin:
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Yeah , well. I crossed the Arctic circle, barefoot, uphill both ways-- instead of flying to Germany.
:smokin:
Ya topped me. :silly:
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OOPS...
It appears the David Dao who the press pulled the background info on is the wrong David Dao. The criminal records the dumb press found and spread were of Dr. David Anh Duy Dao. The doctor on the plane was David Thanh Duc Dao.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/united-airlines-doctor-david-dao-drugs-gay-sex-court-documents-oscar-munoz-a7680221.html
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OOPS...
It appears the David Dao who the press pulled the background info on is the wrong David Dao. The criminal records the dumb press found and spread were of Dr. David Anh Duy Dao. The doctor on the plane was David Thanh Duc Dao.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/united-airlines-doctor-david-dao-drugs-gay-sex-court-documents-oscar-munoz-a7680221.html
Oh crap.
Dr Dao's nest egg just got a lot bigger.
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OOPS...
It appears the David Dao who the press pulled the background info on is the wrong David Dao. The criminal records the dumb press found and spread were of Dr. David Anh Duy Dao. The doctor on the plane was David Thanh Duc Dao.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/united-airlines-doctor-david-dao-drugs-gay-sex-court-documents-oscar-munoz-a7680221.html
Looks like Doc Duc Dao is going to get a couple of big checks....
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There were folks on Twitter claiming libel and slander.
Perhaps Dr Dao should contact Melania's Lawyer. Dr Dao is going to be a Billionaire before this is all over with.
OOPS...
It appears the David Dao who the press pulled the background info on is the wrong David Dao. The criminal records the dumb press found and spread were of Dr. David Anh Duy Dao. The doctor on the plane was David Thanh Duc Dao.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/united-airlines-doctor-david-dao-drugs-gay-sex-court-documents-oscar-munoz-a7680221.html
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Yes . The signalling has been going on for a long time.
So you would go back to early last century and find articles of the govt wanting to break up John D. Rockefeller's Standard Oil to prove the point that 'the signaling has been going on for a long time' on oil monopolies too?
Ridiculous way to make a point.
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So you would go back to early last century and find articles of the govt wanting to break up John D. Rockefeller's Standard Oil to prove the point that 'the signaling has been going on for a long time' on oil monopolies too?
Ridiculous way to make a point.
The point is that the article is proof that consolidation HAS happened in the industry. The big six or seven is now the Big four.
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A friend lived in Minneapolis, and then moved to ND. He still flies NWA, just now with an extra flight and at about half the price. The same flight now costs much less if he first takes another flight on the same airline?
NWA is still in business? now that is real news, the ability to fly undercover.
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1. Remove the pseudo law enforcement status of the airline employees
2. Remove the government protections from airlines for failing to provide adequate treatment to passengers
3. Prevent the airlines from hiring govt officials, and prevent govt agencies from hiring airline people
4. Stop collusion between the airlines and govt regulatory beaucrats
5. Apply current consumer laws to air travel tickets. e.g. if you buy a ticket and they don't deliver as promised you get a refund
6. Accurately track and publicize flight schedule data. For example if 50% of an airlines flights after 4pm from LaGuardia are significantly delayed or canceled the airline should be required to publicize it to purchasers.
Just a start
What is an airline supposed to do when there is a disruptive passenger?
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@thackney
Then you speak from ignorance. Flying today is a much worse experience then flying even just 4 years ago.
I used to be able to dependably fly to Dallas and be there for an 830am meeting.
Today that trip takes a day. Flights are regularly delayed and canceled. During one period flying from Dulles to Tampa 8 of 10 flights I took were delayed at least 2 hours or canceled.
My company travels frequently. In the last year there has not been a single trip (out of about 75) where at least one person did not have flight issues.
that is mostly due to 911 and TSA, not the lack of competition
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What is an airline supposed to do when there is a disruptive passenger?
Well heck lets just go full police state then comrade. Then we won't have any problems with pesky civilians.
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I'm all for the freemarket but overbooking is a form of fraud IMO.
Well, it would certainly be possible for the government to ban overbooking. That would mean fewer paying passengers per flight, so airlines would need to charge more per seat to make up the difference in revenues.
If you made it an across the board requirement for all airlines, it probably wouldn't affect them too much because their competitors would all have to do the same. It would just mean that people would have to pay more to fly.
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that is mostly due to 911 and TSA, not the lack of competition
As much as I hate the TSA, they are usually only about 30 minutes of the trip. Sometimes less if I can get TSA Precheck in which case they are about 5 mins.
No, the so called security rules are a convenient excuse but not the reality.
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@thackney
Then you speak from ignorance. Flying today is a much worse experience then flying even just 4 years ago.
I used to be able to dependably fly to Dallas and be there for an 830am meeting.
Today that trip takes a day. Flights are regularly delayed and canceled. During one period flying from Dulles to Tampa 8 of 10 flights I took were delayed at least 2 hours or canceled.
My company travels frequently. In the last year there has not been a single trip (out of about 75) where at least one person did not have flight issues.
Then you should fly from Ohio. We fly frequently out of both Columbus and Cleveland and it's much easier than it was four years ago. I haven't been on a delayed flight in years. And now that they have TSA pre-check, it's a piece of cake.
Or am I 'ignorant' too?? :shrug:
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Well heck lets just go full police state then comrade. Then we won't have any problems with pesky civilians.
That doesn't answer the question, so I'll ask it again. What should an airline do if it has a disruptive passenger?
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Well, it would certainly be possible for the government to ban overbooking. That would mean fewer paying passengers per flight, so airlines would need to charge more per seat to make up the difference in revenues.
If you made it an across the board requirement for all airlines, it probably wouldn't affect them too much because their competitors would all have to do the same. It would just mean that people would have to pay more to fly.
How about having some repercussions when the airlines fail to deliver as promised. If I want to change a ticket it costs me $150 plus the difference in airfare. How about it costing the airpine when they fail.
They over book, don't have any spare capacity and when they have problems they cannot accommodate the passengers in their system. Last week I spoke with numerous people who had been in the airport for 2 days. Numerous people being told it would take the airline 2-5 days to get them to their destination. The airline wasn't paying for hotels, they werent paying for meals. They did distribute Little Ceasers pizza at one gate though.
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That doesn't answer the question, so I'll ask it again. What should an airline do if it has a disruptive passenger?
Sure it does. You obviously don't think us civilians should have any rights. That's a police state.
here's a clue, this aint the military Major.
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As much as I hate the TSA, they are usually only about 30 minutes of the trip. Sometimes less if I can get TSA Precheck in which case they are about 5 mins.
No, the so called security rules are a convenient excuse but not the reality.
Your reality is different than mine after taking maybe a hundred roundtrips between Houston and Dallas all the way back to the 70s until recently.
I know it is govt regulation that caused impact. The competition by SWA is the only thing stopping monopolistic practices.
Thank God for Southwest. It is not a coincidence that the travel sites overlook them or that the majors will not ticket exchange with them.
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Well, it would certainly be possible for the government to ban overbooking. That would mean fewer paying passengers per flight, so airlines would need to charge more per seat to make up the difference in revenues.
If you made it an across the board requirement for all airlines, it probably wouldn't affect them too much because their competitors would all have to do the same. It would just mean that people would have to pay more to fly.
Just ban United from overbooking. United seems to have a penchant for arbitrary, obnoxious and capricious mandates.
If it impacts United pricing relative to its competitors, TOO BAD.
United ranks as the second most likely airline to bump customers - on or off the the plane.
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Just ban United from overbooking. United seems to have a penchant for arbitrary, obnoxious and capricious mandates.
If it impacts United pricing relative to its competitors, TOO BAD.
United ranks as the second most likely airline to bump customers - on or off the the plane.
All or none. Apply the same rules to all companies. Asking the government to intentionally pick winners and losers is insane.
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Your reality is different than mine after taking maybe a hundred roundtrips between Houston and Dallas all the way back to the 70s until recently.
I know it is govt regulation that caused impact. The competition by SWA is the only thing stopping monopolistic practices.
Thank God for Southwest. It is not a coincidence that the travel sites overlook them or that the majors will not ticket exchange with them.
Southwest isnt on the travel sites because they don't wish to be on the travel sites.
The other big airlines are on the travel sites because they want to be. So the claim that the travel sites cause pricing pressure is false. The price I get quoted on expedia is exactly the same as on Deltas site.
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How about having some repercussions when the airlines fail to deliver as promised. If I want to change a ticket it costs me $150 plus the difference in airfare. How about it costing the airpine when they fail.
no one forces you to buy other than fully refundable. Suck it up and pay for it if that is what you prefer.
They over book, don't have any spare capacity and when they have problems they cannot accommodate the passengers in their system.
you still cannot grasp the business model they must adhere to in order to make a profit and stay in business. They must have full seats. That is how they must operate, otherwise, the cost per ticket will be higher for everybody.
They cannot guarantee a seat. If you want that, don't fly or hire a private plane.
These airlines are not awash in money. Many have been bankrupt. Squeezing profits from a notoriously unprofitable business forces them to adapt ways to stay in business.
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no one forces you to buy other than fully refundable. Suck it up and pay for it if that is what you prefer.you still cannot grasp the business model they must adhere to in order to make a profit and stay in business. They must have full seats. That is how they must operate, otherwise, the cost per ticket will be higher for everybody.
They cannot guarantee a seat. If you want that, don't fly or hire a private plane.
These airlines are not awash in money. Many have been bankrupt. Squeezing profits from a notoriously unprofitable business forces them to adapt ways to stay in business.
Fully refundable doesn't enter the picture when it costs them NOTHING when they fail to deliver as promised.
Of course they want full seats, why wouldn't they. Of course they don't want any negative business risk when they fail to perform. Sounds like a great business model.
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Southwest isnt on the travel sites because they don't wish to be on the travel sites.
The other big airlines are on the travel sites because they want to be. So the claim that the travel sites cause pricing pressure is false. The price I get quoted on expedia is exactly the same as on Deltas site.
where did I say that travel sites cause pricing pressure?
Point it out.
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Fully refundable doesn't enter the picture when it costs them NOTHING when they fail to deliver as promised.
Of course they want full seats, why wouldn't they. Of course they don't want any negative business risk when they fail to perform. Sounds like a great business model.
your business model is pointing toward a govt-controlled, govt subsidized entity like Amtrak.
No thank you.
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where did I say that travel sites cause pricing pressure?
Point it out.
Aren't you the same person arguing this guy wasn't thrown from the plane?
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Good point. Lets encourage premier examples of market efficiency like SWA.
Your reality is different than mine after taking maybe a hundred roundtrips between Houston and Dallas all the way back to the 70s until recently.
I know it is govt regulation that caused impact. The competition by SWA is the only thing stopping monopolistic practices.
Thank God for Southwest. It is not a coincidence that the travel sites overlook them or that the majors will not ticket exchange with them.
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All or none. Apply the same rules to all companies. Asking the government to intentionally pick winners and losers is insane.
United picked themselves to be losers. There needs to be penalties here.
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Aren't you the same person arguing this guy wasn't thrown from the plane?
what in the world does that have to do with travel sites?
No One was thrown off a plane, BTW. That even sounds inhuman, like something the NK dictator would do. Are you talking about the 4 that were removed involuntarily?
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United picked themselves to be losers. There needs to be penalties here.
there already is. Go look at stock price today vs last week. Likely a lot less tickets being sold at same times too.
Are you ready for them to go out if business so there is even less competition in the future? Will that satisfy you?
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Reinstated with restrictions in 2015.
My luck he's probably on the approved list of doctors who accept Tricare. **nononono*
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That doesn't answer the question, so I'll ask it again. What should an airline do if it has a disruptive passenger?
The United CEO just said no Law Enforcement to eject drunk/unruly/terrorist passengers.
An unfortunate remedy by the CEO .
This discussion is concerned about abuse of ticketed and seated passengers like Dr Dao. There was no issue with Dr Dao , until United GLEEFully impugned on his seated status which TURNS out to be PROVISIONALLY SEATED status.
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My luck he's probably on the approved list of doctors who accept Tricare. **nononono*
Well, the doctor who got in trouble was reinstated, if that's the guy who was pulled off the plane. There are apparently two doctors with the same last name, and if the reported resume was for the wrong one, there's going to be a whole lot of retracting going on, or some busy lawyers getting fat fees...
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there already is. Go look at stock price today vs last week. Likely a lot less tickets being sold at same times too.
Are you ready for them to go out if business so there is even less competition in the future? Will that satisfy you?
I hope United is replaced by three or more new/existing carriers. But the reality is United owns the gates and until the gates are taken away, United's bad behavior will continue to be rewarded.
So the impact on this 'Boss Hogg' business model will be very limited.
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Well, the doctor who got in trouble was reinstated, if that's the guy who was pulled off the plane. There are apparently two doctors with the same last name, and if the reported resume was for the wrong one, there's going to be a whole lot of retracting going on, or some busy lawyers getting fat fees...
Where does Dr Dao go to get his reputation back? Melania has some good contacts.
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But the reality is United owns the gates and until the gates are taken away, United's bad behavior will continue to be rewarded.
Rents, not owns. And technically, the gates are immaterial. What counts and are bid for/paid for are the slots for takeoff and landing. Those are the restrictive factor at any airport.
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Well, the doctor who got in trouble was reinstated, if that's the guy who was pulled off the plane. There are apparently two doctors with the same last name, and if the reported resume was for the wrong one, there's going to be a whole lot of retracting going on, or some busy lawyers getting fat fees...
As of this morning the Louisville news stations were still reporting it's the one from Elizabethtown.
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Rents, not owns. And technically, the gates are immaterial. What counts and are bid for/paid for are the slots for takeoff and landing. Those are the restrictive factor at any airport.
Ok, so lets allow United to 'Rent' gates for a week at time. After Untied's performance this week, give their gates / flight slots for others to 'Rent'
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Just ban United from overbooking. United seems to have a penchant for arbitrary, obnoxious and capricious mandates.
If it impacts United pricing relative to its competitors, TOO BAD.
United ranks as the second most likely airline to bump customers - on or off the the plane.
Screw that, I made $2,000 off United one day by being bumped (Christmas time, volunteered to get bumped from four flights -- was hoping to keep it up for a couple more days).
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The United CEO just said no Law Enforcement to eject drunk/unruly/terrorist passengers.
An unfortunate remedy by the CEO .
This discussion is concerned about abuse of ticketed and seated passengers like Dr Dao. There was no issue with Dr Dao , until United GLEEFully impugned on his seated status which TURNS out to be PROVISIONALLY SEATED status.
Why won't you answer the question? What should an airline do with a disruptive passenger, whether you think that label should apply to the doctor or not?
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Screw that, I made $2,000 off United one day by being bumped (Christmas time, volunteered to get bumped from four flights -- was hoping to keep it up for a couple more days).
Yeah, I was only bumped once involuntarily, but the compensation was still good. Been voluntarily bumped a number of times, and made out like a Banshee.
Buddy of mine and I once flew to Australia for a month of leave. We got bumped from our flight out of L.A., but they not only put us on a flight that literally left 10 minutes later (but was not direct), but also gave us each two transferable tickets good anywhere in the U.S.. We sold them each later for $450/pop (back in 1989), which had the net effect of making our entire trip free because we took MAC the rest of the way.
The vast majority of the time, bumping is voluntary, and everyone ends up happier for it. So personally I would not want to see an end to overbooking. When I want to guarantee I won't get bumped for business, I make sure to pay full-fare coach or business.
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what in the world does that have to do with travel sites?
No One was thrown off a plane, BTW. That even sounds inhuman, like something the NK dictator would do. Are you talking about the 4 that were removed involuntarily?
http://i.imgur.com/ZbEMV5d.mp4
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I have zero problem with a passenger who refuses to deplane -- for any reason -- being removed by force. However, if the required force is excessive, then it is perfectly reasonable to go after the folks responsible for that. If airline security, go after that. If police, then sue them.
In my mind, this is no different than if you are arrested for something that you did not do. If you decide to resist the arrest physically, that's on you.
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Then you should fly from Ohio. We fly frequently out of both Columbus and Cleveland and it's much easier than it was four years ago. I haven't been on a delayed flight in years. And now that they have TSA pre-check, it's a piece of cake.
Or am I 'ignorant' too?? :shrug:
Wow...I wish all places were like Ohio, then.
Well, in that way. :-)
That hasn't been my experience elsewhere in the US, though I haven't flown into or out of Ohio in about 6 years.
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Why won't you answer the question? What should an airline do with a disruptive passenger, whether you think that label should apply to the doctor or not?
I just did. The ham-handed remedy by the United CEO has made things worse.
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Are you talking about the 4 that were removed involuntarily?
Which raised another point -- why is that three people were able to act like freaking adults and walked off the plane under their own power, even though they were bumped involuntarily as well, and one guy decided to be a drama queen?
And no, I don't care that he was old and of Vietamese ancestry. I assume he spoke the language well enough given that he practices medicine here. Old people have to follow rules too unless they're geezing, in which case they'd be given priority as being disabled anyway.
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(http://i.imgur.com/UrUuryS.jpg)
Now with red-eye and black-eye flights!
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As of this morning the Louisville news stations were still reporting it's the one from Elizabethtown.
Not that it should matter, but there is some confusion over the interwebs. Of course, whatever outrage is done seems more justified if the person who catches it is able to be portrayed as someone you wouldn't want for a Sunday school teacher. THe opposite tack is used to make hoodrats seem like victims.
Either way, the optics are bad for United, and they really should examine a different way of presenting their overbooking to make it look like no one is bumped, rather people are accommodated. If the margin (the anticipated no-shows) are kept as standby seats until the flight is ready to board, and the passengers notified to board to fill the last few seats, those passengers would feel like they were lucky, the rest like they hadn't really lost anything because they were on stand-by status in case a seat opened up anyway.
Putting people on a plane and then telling them they have to get off for someone 'more important' really won't go over well, whoever the one being bumped is.
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Why won't you answer the question? What should an airline do with a disruptive passenger, whether you think that label should apply to the doctor or not?
I vote have them removed from the flight by airport security/LEO.
Now I know some will say this gives the flight crew the right to be complete dicks because they can arbitrarily declare anyone as "disruptive". To some extent, it does, but I suspect there will be repercussions if they abuse this. At least I hope so. However...
Every minute spent arguing on the plane means that everyone on the plane gets to their destination later. Some people will miss their connecting flights. Other people who are not even on this flight may be delayed because this flight crew will arrive at the next airport late (even worse, crews can only "fly" so many hours a day, and I believe "fly" includes sitting on the ground). Many others may be delayed if this flight is blocking the gate.
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Which raised another point -- why is that three people were able to act like freaking adults and walked off the plane under their own power, even though they were bumped involuntarily as well, and one guy decided to be a drama queen?
And no, I don't care that he was old and of Vietamese ancestry. I assume he spoke the language well enough given that he practices medicine here. Old people have to follow rules too unless they're geezing, in which case they'd be given priority as being disabled anyway.
I believe one of those three was the doctor's wife. Let me see if I can find that again.
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Fellow passenger Jayse D. Anspach, who goes by @JayseDavid on Twitter, wrote: “No one volunteered (to leave), so @United decided to choose for us. They chose an Asian doctor and his wife.”
“It looked like he was knocked out, because he went limp and quiet,” Anspach wrote, “and they dragged him out of the plane like a rag doll.”
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/united-airlines-faces-backlash-after-dragging-man-from-plane/
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Which raised another point -- why is that three people were able to act like freaking adults and walked off the plane under their own power, even though they were bumped involuntarily as well, and one guy decided to be a drama queen?
And why haven't we heard from them? I mean, this Dr is looking at a payout - why shouldn't they get in on the act?
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And why haven't we heard from them? I mean, this Dr is looking at a payout - why shouldn't they get in on the act?
They already got their payouts, I imagine.
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I hope United is replaced by three or more new/existing carriers. But the reality is United owns the gates and until the gates are taken away, United's bad behavior will continue to be rewarded.
So the impact on this 'Boss Hogg' business model will be very limited.
how exactly will It 'be rewarded'? Continuing in business at reduced profit? That is their reward?
You do realize that replacing United with existing carriers reduces competition?
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I vote have them removed from the flight by airport security/LEO.
Now I know some will say this gives the flight crew the right to be complete dicks because they can arbitrarily declare anyone as "disruptive". To some extent, it does, but I suspect there will be repercussions if they abuse this. At least I hope so. However...
Every minute spent arguing on the plane means that everyone on the plane gets to their destination later. Some people will miss their connecting flights. Other people who are not even on this flight may be delayed because this flight crew will arrive at the next airport late (even worse, crews can only "fly" so many hours a day, and I believe "fly" includes sitting on the ground). Many others may be delayed if this flight is blocking the gate.
an airline had a captain he same as a ship.
These are the ones who have control over the ship.
This exists everywhere in the world and for a long, long time
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United picked themselves to be losers. There needs to be penalties here.
...A study released recently by MileCards.com shows that in 2016 Delta was the airline most likely to give passengers compensation due to overbooked flights. The airline paid out some form of compensation—usually flight vouchers or credits—to 10 passengers out of every 10,000.
United was second on the list, with compensation given to 7.2 out of every 10,000 passengers, followed by:
Southwest (5.9)
Spirit (5.4)
American (4.1)
Virgin America (3.0)
Alaska (2.9)
Frontier (1.4)
JetBlue (0.5)...
...According to the Department of Transportation, a total of 40,629 passengers were denied boarding involuntarily on domestic flights in 2016. That may sound like a lot, but it's a decline from 2015, when 43,704 passengers were bumped involuntarily. The airline with the most involuntary bumps last year was America's biggest domestic carrier, Southwest, with 14,979. Southwest also had one of the highest rates of involuntary bumps—0.99 for every 10,000 passengers, second only to the regional puddle-jumper carrier ExpressJet (1.51).
JetBlue actually had a relatively high involuntary bump rate—0.92 per 10,000 passengers, ninth highest out of America's top 12 airlines. This is because while JetBlue appears to overbook flights less often than others, when there were overbookings it was more likely to bump passengers against their will rather than offer compensation to those missing flights voluntarily. In 2016, JetBlue gave compensation for 1,705 voluntary bumps, while involuntarily bumping 3,176 passengers....
http://time.com/money/4734566/overbooked-flights-united-delta-jetblue-airlines-bumped/
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how exactly will It 'be rewarded'? Continuing in business at reduced profit? That is their reward?
You do realize that replacing United with existing carriers reduces competition?
No. It increases competition. Both by domestic and potentially foreign carriers.
Breaks down the market power of bad actors by putting their gates/flight slots in play.
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That is an appalling rate. Some of us value our time and like yourself find myself having to drive more than I would care too.
...According to the Department of Transportation, a total of 40,629 passengers were denied boarding involuntarily on domestic flights in 2016.
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@thackney . Really appreciate the exchange of analytics with you.
Even we disagree. Especially when we disagree. More members , including me, get to learn interesting stuff.!!!!
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Dragged United Passenger Files Legal Action Over Forceful Deplaning
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-04-12/dragged-united-passenger-files-legal-action-over-forceful-deplaning
As reported by Reuters, citing the risk of "serious prejudice" to their client, Dao's lawyers want United and the City of Chicago, which runs O'Hare International Airport, to preserve surveillance videos, cockpit voice recordings, passenger and crew lists, and other materials related to United Flight 3411.
Me: If one precious second of video or testimony is missing , throw the book at United and their key officers!!!
Obstruction of Justice.
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On Wednesday, Senator Chris Van Hollen, a Maryland Democrat, announced plans for the Customers Not Cargo Act, which would prohibit the forcible removal of passengers already aboard an aircraft "due to overbooking or airline staff seeking to fly as passengers."
Very catchy. Too bad the Republicans did not get in front of this with targeted remedies.
My sincere fear is that the Donks are going to end up OWNING this issue.
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If the pubs were smart ( they aint), they would subpoena the ENTIRE United board to Congress and Ask why Munoz has not been fired.
They wont.
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No. It increases competition. Both by domestic and potentially foreign carriers.
Breaks down the market power of bad actors by putting their gates/flight slots in play.
wow, I found someone who believes decreasing the competition actually is more competitive.
Anybody agree with this outlandish statement?
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No. It increases competition. Both by domestic and potentially foreign carriers.
Breaks down the market power of bad actors by putting their gates/flight slots in play.
and how did you answer the rewaRd part oF this question, anyway?
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wow, I found someone who believes decreasing the competition actually is more competitive.
Anybody agree with this outlandish statement?
You are incorrectly stating my position. My position is that four dominant carriers are too few.
The gates /slots have to be disgorged to make room for smaller carriers by market, new carriers or even foreign carriers ( but would not prefer the latter)
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You are incorrectly stating my position. My position is that four dominant carriers are too few.
The gates /slots have to be disgorged to make room for smaller carriers by market, new carriers or even foreign carriers ( but would not prefer the latter)
and you go back and see what you stated and you will note you stated otherwise.
You are outlandish in your screaming nonsense of the travel industry. How could one possibly believe what you say?
The market will take care of United's indiscretion in not what they did, but how they did it.
Your stance either enforces a govt mandate, a sure economic loser, or some idyllic frolicking in forcing everyone to pay more for travel by guaranteeing seat occupancy.
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The market cant, because there is no real market. Anymore than bringing down long distance prices in 1975 during the era of AT&T.
That is why United can and does treat its customers like dirt.
http://www.untied.com/main.shtml
30,000 complaints. Give United some real competition. Recognize that the Continental merger was a mistake.
The market will take care of United's indiscretion in not what they did, but how they did it.
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The market cant, because there is no real market. Anymore than bringing down long distance prices in 1975 during the era of AT&T.
That is why United can and does treat its customers like dirt.
http://www.untied.com/main.shtml
30,000 complaints. Give United some real competition. Recognize that the Continental merger was a mistake.
The market failed. Interesting.
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The market failed. Interesting.
Government restriction of the market is the failure mode. Apologies if my position above was not clear. Make it easier for start up airlines. Jet Blue and SW are not new airlines anymore.
If a carrier is #4 in its market, release gates from the #1 carrier. But most of all, make an example of United.
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Here is what I seen..
1. No one at United got mad.
2. They (crew) were not standby, they were a "must ride". (Meaning that they had to get to that destination to operate a flight while maintaining FAA regulations due to weather impacting operations)
3. Whenever you purchase a ticket, you are agreeing to abide by the passenger agreements and CFRs.
4. He wasn't randomly chosen, the computer system used goes by who paid the cheapest ticket, whether or not luggage was checked, status, boarding priority, etc.
5. The flight wasn't originally oversold until the inbound crew encountered a missed connect due to weather impacting operations and legality issues which is why these 4 inflight personnels had to get onto this particular flight to avoid a cancellation of the morning flight as this particular flight from Chicago only flies once at 3pm.
6. He was asked numerous times to leave the aircraft by United officials, he leaves, changes his mind then decides to run past the gate agents back to the aircraft. At this point, he is classified as non-compliant and a security issue which is why law enforcement was called. This is post 9/11. That's a federal offense, you don't run onto an aircraft after being removed. Period. Point. Blank. Once the law gets involved, it is no longer United. That's Chicago O'hare Int'l Airport and Chicago PD. They told him numerous times to exit, nicely, and he didn't comply so there you have it.
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Lets check the facts, and the video tape...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dASATLLvGRM
Notice the contemporaneous outrage from the other passengers.
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Not only do they beat you up, then they assassinate your character
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Not only do they beat you up, then they assassinate your character
That is most pithy thing you have said. Gotta be.
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Not only do they beat you up, then they assassinate your character
Yep great folks. If those are "friendly skies", I'd rather walk.
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Yep great folks. If those are "friendly skies", I'd rather walk.
Dr Dao's Lawyer has asked for evidence to be preserved. This is probably the most watched crime scene in history, with 550 Million viewers in China alone.
Not to mention the rest of Asia.....
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30,000 complaints.
Wow.
Took a look at the complaints site. Yep, 30,000 complaints, going back to 1998 alright.
United flew 143 million passengers last year. Assuming they have been slowly increasing their market since 1998, it's pretty fair to give them an average of 100 million passengers per year for the period, giveing them nigh on 2 billion passengers.
2 billion passengers. 30,000 complaints. You do the math.
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Only a tiny percentage of the aggrieved would complain at that particular site.
In fact, did not even know about the site until now.
And if it is so insignificant, why is United trying to shut down untied?
Wow.
Took a look at the complaints site. Yep, 30,000 complaints, going back to 1998 alright.
United flew 143 million passengers last year. Assuming they have been slowly increasing their market since 1998, it's pretty fair to give them an average of 100 million passengers per year for the period, giveing them nigh on 2 billion passengers.
2 billion passengers. 30,000 complaints. You do the math.
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No matter what the Doc has done in his past...no matter whether United has it in it's micro print on the ticket that they reserve the right to kick paying customers off a plane so the can dead head a crew to it's next destination...they were wrong and will always be wrong in how they initially handled the situation and how badly their PR people have stumbled every step of the way since.
You don't treat people like that...period.
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No matter what the Doc has done in his past...no matter whether United has it in it's micro print on the ticket that they reserve the right to kick paying customers off a plane so the can dead head a crew to it's next destination...they were wrong and will always be wrong in how they initially handled the situation and how badly their PR people have stumbled every step of the way since.
You don't treat people like that...period.
Agreed. :thumbsup:
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...they were wrong and will always be wrong in how they initially handled the situation and how badly their PR people have stumbled every step of the way since.
In years past, I know my company spent many thousands of $ just on myself and immediate colleagues on dealing with PR, media, and governmental agencies.
Extrapolating that, no telling how many billions are spent corporate nation wide on these matters.
Still, in a matter of a week we have seen debacles from Pepsi, UA, and the WH. WTH????
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In years past, I know my company spent many thousands of $ just on myself and immediate colleagues on dealing with PR, media, and governmental agencies.
Extrapolating that, no telling how many billions are spent corporate nation wide on these matters.
Still, in a matter of a week we have seen debacles from Pepsi, UA, and the WH. WTH????
I guess they don't make PR people like they used to.
These have been incidents that have provided some valuable teaching points as well as some interesting discussion among myself and others in the PA field.
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I guess they don't make PR people like they used to.
These have been incidents that have provided some valuable teaching points as well as some interesting discussion among myself and others in the PA field.
Yep a training module could be constructed from this week alone.
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Schools need to teach young people courses in diplomacy....as well as how to develop the habit of saving 10% of everything that passes through their hands.
IMHO, social media is slowly eroding interpersonal skills among society...thus we get United Air Lines.
As far as the Pepsi debacle...someone signed off on the presentation by their advertising agency...perhaps in a poor attempt to mirror European commercials centered on how risque they can get.
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Schools need to teach young people courses in diplomacy....as well as how to develop the habit of saving 10% of everything that passes through their hands.
IMHO, social media is slowly eroding interpersonal skills among society...thus we get United Air Lines.
As far as the Pepsi debacle...someone signed off on the presentation by their advertising agency...perhaps in a poor attempt to mirror European commercials centered on how risque they can get.
@DCPatriot
Why worry about diplomacy when you carry a big stick. The veneer of civility with airline employees is razor thin. Do anything to disagree with them and you will see the stick.
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Schools need to teach young people courses in diplomacy....as well as how to develop the habit of saving 10% of everything that passes through their hands.
IMHO, social media is slowly eroding interpersonal skills among society...thus we get United Air Lines.
As far as the Pepsi debacle...someone signed off on the presentation by their advertising agency...perhaps in a poor attempt to mirror European commercials centered on how risque they can get.
I'm still not clear on what the Pepsi thing is all about. I completely missed it. :shrug:
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I'm still not clear on what the Pepsi thing is all about. I completely missed it. :shrug:
(http://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/BBzOmFh.img?h=1080&w=1920&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f&x=253&y=109)
Keeping it brief, one of the Kardachian girls appeared in a Pepsi commercial, joins a BLM type march in progress, and hands a Pepsi to a cop in the riot line.
1. Pisses off conservatives like us, because it could be construed as an Pepsi endorsement of BLM.
2. Pisses off liberals as it makes light of their cause.
Someone was asleep at the switch that day.
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No matter what the Doc has done in his past...no matter whether United has it in it's micro print on the ticket that they reserve the right to kick paying customers off a plane so the can dead head a crew to it's next destination...they were wrong and will always be wrong in how they initially handled the situation and how badly their PR people have stumbled every step of the way since.
You don't treat people like that...period.
to say it more succinctly: Why they did it is logical, whereas how they did it is not.
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(http://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/BBzOmFh.img?h=1080&w=1920&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f&x=253&y=109)
Keeping it brief, one of the Kardachian girls appeared in a Pepsi commercial, joins a BLM type march in progress, and hands a Pepsi to a cop in the riot line.
1. Pisses off conservatives like us, because it could be construed as an Pepsi endorsement of BLM.
2. Pisses off liberals as it makes light of their cause.
Someone was asleep at the switch that day.
Ah, yeah. I see the problem. Leave it to a Kardashian to figure out a way to cheese everybody off at once. I heard ol' Bruce had a Chopadicoffame surgery the other day.
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(http://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/BBzOmFh.img?h=1080&w=1920&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f&x=253&y=109)
Keeping it brief, one of the Kardachian girls appeared in a Pepsi commercial, joins a BLM type march in progress, and hands a Pepsi to a cop in the riot line.
1. Pisses off conservatives like us, because it could be construed as an Pepsi endorsement of BLM.
2. Pisses off liberals as it makes light of their cause.
Someone was asleep at the switch that day.
Actually if the Twit was a person, it would be the one living in their moms basement who lost sleep over all of those memes in that picture.
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(https://pics.onsizzle.com/united-airlines-too-soon-unitedairlines-negan-glenn-twd-twdfamily-thewalkingdead-18775012.png)
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I'm still not clear on what the Pepsi thing is all about. I completely missed it. :shrug:
Imagine solving the BLM race riots by handing the racist, evil cops a Pepsi and peace breaks out.
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Imagine solving the BLM race riots by handing the racist, evil cops a Pepsi and peace breaks out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ib-Qiyklq-Q
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ib-Qiyklq-Q
I'd like to teach the world to loot in perfect harmony...
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We have recently had fits, with Volkswagen and with Frontier cable. Very big companies, with complex computer systems.
But on the level of common sense, good judgment, employee sensitivity to possible loss of future business and company reputations, forget about it.
the root problem in my analysis, is this: We live in a society at a time after a massive explosion in the volume of information at hand.
But there has not been an increase in human skills, to process, manage, decide things with all this data.
Case VW: They committed fraud on consumers and government emission testing agencies. Now they have to fix or buy back the vehicles. Dealing with this is a PR failure.
Case Frontier: Frontier bought Verizon FIOS in my area. Verizon was great on customer services. Frontier treat its customers like we are the enemy.
United airlines is just one f many firms, falling down badly in terms of respecting the very customers that give them revenue.
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We have recently had fits, with Volkswagen and with Frontier cable. Very big companies, with complex computer systems.
But on the level of common sense, good judgment, employee sensitivity to possible loss of future business and company reputations, forget about it.
the root problem in my analysis, is this: We live in a society at a time after a massive explosion in the volume of information at hand.
But there has not been an increase in human skills, to process, manage, decide things with all this data.
Case VW: They committed fraud on consumers and government emission testing agencies. Now they have to fix or buy back the vehicles. Dealing with this is a PR failure.
Case Frontier: Frontier bought Verizon FIOS in my area. Verizon was great on customer services. Frontier treat its customers like we are the enemy.
United airlines is just one of many firms, falling down badly in terms of respecting the very customers that give them revenue.
:amen: Sing it, Bro...
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Case Frontier: Frontier bought Verizon FIOS in my area. Verizon was great on customer services. Frontier treat its customers like we are the enemy.
United airlines is just one f many firms, falling down badly in terms of respecting the very customers that give them revenue.
Interesting. I just switched to Frontier because I had had it with the customer "service" of the other (formerly great) option. I've been quite happy with their support.
As far as UAL, I flew a half million miles with them. Then I stopped travelling for work, and as soon as my status was gone I was chattel. Oh, and all those miles I earned are now worth about 20% of what they used to be, as they keep moving the goal posts. Contrast that with Marriott, who left me at their highest status level for a few years, even though I didn't rent a single room from them during the time, and has never devalued the rewards I have earned. Now, both of these companies played by the rules, but guess which one gets my business, and perhaps more importantly my recommendation to others who travel?
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The UNITED memes are still coming out. lol.
(http://memestatic.fjcdn.com/pictures/United+memes+comp_6b89d2_6235569.jpg)
(https://heavyeditorial.files.wordpress.com/2017/04/g6pz4x88otqy.jpg?quality=65&strip=all&w=320)
(https://heavyeditorial.files.wordpress.com/2017/04/8v2iq7b7mtqy.jpg?quality=65&strip=all&w=320)
(https://heavyeditorial.files.wordpress.com/2017/04/ict2eqb.jpg?quality=65&strip=all&w=320)
(http://americanmilitarynews.com/wp-content/uploads/battt.png)
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Interesting. I just switched to Frontier because I had had it with the customer "service" of the other (formerly great) option. I've been quite happy with their support.
Frontier tries to gouge you with billings. Call to question it, or ask for change in services, and I can almost guarantee the bills will be screwed up, always in their favor. They will try to wear you down, and they may not be respectful or polite.
The first person that I talked with at Frontier turned me against them instantly. After that call, I said: "that is it. I am cutting the cable."
When you talk to them, note the date, and keep the "confirmation numbers."
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Frontier tries to gouge you with billings. Call to question it, or ask for change in services, and I can almost guarantee the bills will be screwed up, always in their favor. They will try to wear you down, and they may not be respectful or polite.
The first person that I talked with at Frontier turned me against them instantly. After that call, I said: "that is it. I am cutting the cable."
When you talk to them, note the date, and keep the "confirmation numbers."
When I got my first bill, I called them, and after waiting on hold for less than a minute, I asked the English speaking human being about the charges for the STB (set top box) and DVR (digital recorder), since I have neither (I use a cable card). After a minute or so on hold, they confirmed that I had neither and my account would be credited on the next bill, which it was.
I don't know if they were trying to screw me, but the support reps were polite and fixed the issue. And I didn't have to wait an hour or so after fighting through voicehell to get to speak to someone.
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(https://scontent.flas1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/17991581_10154814653042912_7681030072068156239_o.jpg?oh=f9d0e818632226aa9e8544149b373d02&oe=59844E9C)