The Briefing Room
General Category => Politics/Government => Topic started by: Elderberry on August 13, 2019, 02:07:00 am
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SlickGun News by Chris Eger August 12, 2019
Under Schumer’s measure, those who aren’t law enforcement would need to get a green light from the FBI to get body armor– and show a reason why they need it.
Legislation promised in the U.S. Senate would make the legal sale of body armor a “may issue†process signed off on by federal law enforcement.
U.S. Sen. Chuck Schumer, D-NY, announced his legislation on Sunday to require FBI permission before anyone except law enforcement could buy what he termed “sophisticated body armor,†setting a bar that would require a clear purpose, such as an occupational requirement, for the buyer to seek the safety equipment.
More: https://slickgunsnews.com/bill-to-require-those-wanting-body-armor-to-get-fbi-permission/ (https://slickgunsnews.com/bill-to-require-those-wanting-body-armor-to-get-fbi-permission/)
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According to Schumer’s office, one study found that 5 percent of a group of 110 active shooters between 2000 and 2012 used body armor.
The only time I can recall it really helping anyone was in the North Hollywood shootout, but that was 1997.
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So for the sake of 5% of mass shooters, they take body armor away from everybody?
WTF is that?
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Wear a seat belt or get a ticket.
Don't wear "body armor" or get a "ticket".
Maybe Ayn Rand was onto something.
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So for the sake of 5% of mass shooters, they take body armor away from everybody?
WTF is that?
More and softer targets for maniacs and crooks. What about delivery drivers, Armored car security, etc.?
It's the same logic that wants to ban a rifle because less than one in a million was used to shoot up a store.
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According to Schumer’s office, one study found that 5 percent of a group of 110 active shooters between 2000 and 2012 used body armor.
The only time I can recall it really helping anyone was in the North Hollywood shootout, but that was 1997.
And their body armor was home made IIRC.
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If I want to buy a $65 dollar Level III Kevlar Plate to slip into my backpack that could possibly save me in the event of an attack where I can't get to my gun or I'm not allowed to carry (like when I'm on a cruise) I shouldn't have to go through the suits at the Hoover Building or at the local field office in Denver to get permission.
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Ned Kelly.
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Why should any citizen be required to get government approval before protecting one's physical person with body armor? Will government permission soon be required for me to place a lock on my door?
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So for the sake of 5% of mass shooters, they take body armor away from everybody?
WTF is that?
@roamer_1
Get yours now because the sale of body armor is going to go out of sight.
We were talking about Kevlar backpacks for kids on another thread. I assume his bill would prevent Kevlar being used for kids' protection in backpacks.
Schumer has protection all around him all the time. Strip him of all that and put him on the street - he would head to the nearest Kelvlar store for the highest level of Kevlar plus metal inserts vest, plus carry a heavy duty Kevlar backpack with metal and hold it in front of his face forever.
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Why should any citizen be required to get government approval before protecting one's physical person with body armor? Will government permission soon be required for me to place a lock on my door?
If you let them have that power...then yes.
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If you let them have that power...then yes.
That's right.
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Get yours now because the sale of body armor is going to go out of sight.
@Victoria33
Nah. I have no need. And if I do, I will make my own.
For instance, rodeo armor is Kevlar. Many industries have adopted Kevlar... I don't think that the raw materials can be regulated... Same with the ceramics...
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@Victoria33
Nah. I have no need. And if I do, I will make my own.
For instance, rodeo armor is Kevlar. Many industries have adopted Kevlar...
.. Same with the ceramics...
@roamer_1
"I don't think that the raw materials can be regulated."
Remember, if they can, they will.
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@roamer_1
"I don't think that the raw materials can be regulated."
Remember, if they can, they will.
@Victoria33
As I said, I have no need... I am seldom where people go, and I am usually where I can step off into the woods... At worst a short ride in the pickup. And if I hit the woods I am gone. Disappeared. And there ain't many with the cajones to follow an armed, pissed off hillbilly into heavy bush, even if he could. Don't y'all worry none.
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@Victoria33
As I said, I have no need... I am seldom where people go, and I am usually where I can step off into the woods... At worst a short ride in the pickup. And if I hit the woods I am gone. Disappeared. And there ain't many with the cajones to follow an armed, pissed off hillbilly into heavy bush, even if he could. Don't y'all worry none.
If you see a Grizz wearing kevlar. Run
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If you see a Grizz wearing kevlar. Run
Kevlar don't matter none to a 45/70
888high58888
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Kevlar don't matter none to a 45/70
It won’t penetrate Level III and IIIa soft armor, but the energy transfer would probably incapacitate the wearer.
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It won’t penetrate Level III and IIIa soft armor, but the energy transfer would probably incapacitate the wearer.
Turning their insides to jello would do that.
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It won’t penetrate Level III and IIIa soft armor, but the energy transfer would probably incapacitate the wearer.
I ain't no expert, but it is my understanding that any reasonable rifle will penetrate IIIa.
And another objection, particular to 45/70 gov... On the lighter grained ammunition, you have to be careful what you use, as they use a slow-burn powder to protect against older guns exploding... If it says 'For all rifles' on the package, regardless of the grain advertised, the ammo won't perform to predictable specs... Or at least that is what I have been told.
Likely, whatever reference you are using was with a 300-ish grain, and likely had that slow-burn effect going on... Try a Horny 410g hard cast ammo and see what you get ;)
Jussayin.
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I ain't no expert, but it is my understanding that any reasonable rifle will penetrate IIIa.
And another objection, particular to 45/70 gov... On the lighter grained ammunition, you have to be careful what you use, as they use a slow-burn powder to protect against older guns exploding... If it says 'For all rifles' on the package, regardless of the grain advertised, the ammo won't perform to predictable specs... Or at least that is what I have been told.
Likely, whatever reference you are using was with a 300-ish grain, and likely had that slow-burn effect going on... Try a Horny 410g hard cast ammo and see what you get ;)
Jussayin.
You could probably custom load a round that would, but these factory ones didn’t penetrate all the way through. It’d probably still take someone out of the fight, however.
Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://youtube.com/watch?v=O_TQAfdnZHU#)
Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://youtube.com/watch?v=Fw-gbekj1u4#)
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You could probably custom load a round that would, but these factory ones didn’t penetrate all the way through. It’d probably still take someone out of the fight, however.
Well the top one is a 1800's trap door - certainly not using hot modern powder.
And the bottom one is a 300grain, like I said.
When I first got my Marlin, I bought up a chunk of Remington 300 grain round tops and went at it... And I was pretty disappointed. I know what a 45/70 should do, but it was only doing marginally better than the 30/30 it replaced. I mean 2" brush would stop it dead... Well I complained about it to a buddy, and he let me in on the weird restricted ammo thing to keep from blowing up older guns... I went with a brand he recommended, and blew a hole through a 5" tree and still hit the target 30 yards beyond... That's what I expected.
That's all I am saying. And yes, there IS that much difference. So I believe my buddy is correct.
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My only use for factory 45-70 ammo was just to have the brass to reload. There may be some potent factory loads now, but when I started with the 45-70 all the factory ammo was loaded to the Trapdoor pressures of 25,000 c.u.p. I was loading up to 40,000 c.u.p. for my 1895 Marlin. The Hornady manual showed loads for the Ruger #1 at 50,000 c.u.p.
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Well the top one is a 1800's trap door - certainly not using hot modern powder.
And the bottom one is a 300grain, like I said.
When I first got my Marlin, I bought up a chunk of Remington 300 grain round tops and went at it... And I was pretty disappointed. I know what a 45/70 should do, but it was only doing marginally better than the 30/30 it replaced. I mean 2" brush would stop it dead... Well I complained about it to a buddy, and he let me in on the weird restricted ammo thing to keep from blowing up older guns... I went with a brand he recommended, and blew a hole through a 5" tree and still hit the target 30 yards beyond... That's what I expected.
That's all I am saying. And yes, there IS that much difference. So I believe my buddy is correct.
If you increase the weight of the bullet and keep the powder grains the same, you’re decreasing velocity. You’ll be hitting with a cue ball, instead of a baseball, but it still won’t penetrate. You’d be better off with a .17 HMR varmint gun, since low cross section and high velocity is what defeats body armor. That’s why the FN SS190 5.7X28 MM ammo is restricted.
Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://youtube.com/watch?v=npaqgBsCxkk#)
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I have some level iiia+ (some spike protection) armor, but everyday wear is out of the question, it weighs a freaking ton. That said, like Roamer (and Edpc) pointed out, if shot with something hot, you might still die within a week or so. Some of this new stuff that weighs a lot less is the way to go if getting anything now days. They have stuff out now days that weighs 5 lbs that do near as good a job as what I got years ago. Not kidding, my stuff is a good 30 lbs or 50lbs or so.
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SlickGun News by Chris Eger August 12, 2019
Under Schumer’s measure, those who aren’t law enforcement would need to get a green light from the FBI to get body armor– and show a reason why they need it.
@Elderberry
Just out of curiousity,does this include congresscritters and their running dog buttpals,US Senators?
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Will government permission soon be required for me to place a lock on my door?
@Jazzhead
Yes,you will,comrade. Take cheer! If you ever lose your key,the local cops will have a copy.
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If you increase the weight of the bullet and keep the powder grains the same, you’re decreasing velocity. You’ll be hitting with a cue ball, instead of a baseball, but it still won’t penetrate. You’d be better off with a .17 HMR varmint gun, since low cross section and high velocity is what defeats body armor. That’s why the FN SS190 5.7X28 MM ammo is restricted.
Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://youtube.com/watch?v=npaqgBsCxkk#)
@edpc
Penetration ain't everything. If you hit someone in the center of his chest with a 400 grain hard cast flatpoint bullet fired at 50,000 CUP it's going to crush his rib cage and stop his heart.
You do make an excellent point about the uber-velocity 17 caliber spire point solids,though. I doubt there is a bulletproof vest they won't go through and barely slow down.
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@edpc
Penetration ain't everything. If you hit someone in the center of his chest with a 400 grain hard cast flatpoint bullet fired at 50,000 CUP it's going to crush his rib cage and stop his heart.
You do make an excellent point about the uber-velocity 17 caliber spire point solids,though. I doubt there is a bulletproof vest they won't go through and barely slow down.
Penetration matters a lot. As an example, would you rather take your chances with getting hit in the chest with a sledgehammer or stabbed in the heart/lungs with a scratch awl? If not for the proximity of GW Hospital, the .22 that ricocheted off the door would have killed Reagan.
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That's why they sell Armor Plates.
Level IV SA rifle plate constructed of Ceramic/Composite material. NIJ 2005 IR Certified to stop level IV threats. Fits into the rifle plate pocket of your plate carrier, tactical entry vest, or compatible overt body armor carrier.
Ballistic Rounds Tested
7.62x39mm M67 (FMJ Ball)
7.62x39mm M43 (MSC)
7.62x39mm API
7.62x51mm (M-80 Ball)
7.62x51mm (M61 AP)
7.62x54R (LPS)
7.62x54R B-32-API
5.56x45mm (M193 Ball)
5.56x45mm (M855/ SS109)
7.62x63mm - JSP
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According to Schumer’s office, one study found that 5 percent of a group of 110 active shooters between 2000 and 2012 used body armor.
The only time I can recall it really helping anyone was in the North Hollywood shootout, but that was 1997.
Yeah I think it helped them until the cops started going for their ankles instead of body shots.
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My only use for factory 45-70 ammo was just to have the brass to reload. There may be some potent factory loads now, but when I started with the 45-70 all the factory ammo was loaded to the Trapdoor pressures of 25,000 c.u.p. I was loading up to 40,000 c.u.p. for my 1895 Marlin. The Hornady manual showed loads for the Ruger #1 at 50,000 c.u.p.
That's right, and probably what my buddy was saying. He said they used a slow burn powder to more or less mimic old school pressures. He reckoned it to a blowgun... blowing a pre-pressured short hard burst as hard as you can, versus just blowing into it as hard as you can... The short burst is going to be far more effective.
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If you increase the weight of the bullet and keep the powder grains the same, you’re decreasing velocity. You’ll be hitting with a cue ball, instead of a baseball, but it still won’t penetrate. You’d be better off with a .17 HMR varmint gun, since low cross section and high velocity is what defeats body armor. That’s why the FN SS190 5.7X28 MM ammo is restricted.
I will cede, as it ain't my purpose anyhow. What I want is a fat piece of lead that will go though brush without deflection and end up hitting what I want, knocking it down right there.. High velocity is the last thing I want in that scenario. As far as I am concerned that 45/70 is king for brush and saddle. And everything I poke a hole in with it stays put.
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I will cede, as it ain't my purpose anyhow. What I want is a fat piece of lead that will go though brush without deflection and end up hitting what I want, knocking it down right there.. High velocity is the last thing I want in that scenario. As far as I am concerned that 45/70 is king for brush and saddle. And everything I poke a hole in with it stays put.
I agree. The .45-70 is a good round for a lot of things. It’s why I purchased an 1895 GBL this past spring. If I had to bug out somewhere, however, I can’t take everything with me. In a survival situation, I’d probably stick with my AR-10 and 1911. The ammo is easier to find and the calibers are effective. The suburbs of KCK isn’t the frontier, so I’d face different challenges.
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I agree. The .45-70 is a good round for a lot of things. It’s why I purchased an 1895 GBL this past spring. If I had to bug out somewhere, however, I can’t take everything with me. In a survival situation, I’d probably stick with my AR-10 and 1911. The ammo is easier to find and the calibers are effective. The suburbs of KCK isn’t the frontier, so I’d face different challenges.
I am going back to colt45 for that reason - availability for brass and rounds up in the woods if I need to...
I would be hard pressed to take either the 45/70 or the 30/30... Probably one or the other... though the 30/30 rounds are probably more available. Actually, what would probably be best is a 410 single shot with a range of shells and a barrel insert for a .22LR... Other than for people and griz. Survival-wise, I mean... I've already got big iron and rounds cached up there, but I don't thing that's all that good on the carry... I would assume to be sticking to brush and trying not to make noise... So that 410 and a break-down bow would be of greater use.
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If I want to buy a $65 dollar Level III Kevlar Plate to slip into my backpack that could possibly save me in the event of an attack where I can't get to my gun or I'm not allowed to carry (like when I'm on a cruise) I shouldn't have to go through the suits at the Hoover Building or at the local field office in Denver to get permission.
Bad enough these bungwipes want to tell what you can carry, now they want to dictate what you can wear.
What's next? Work boots? Sneakers? Ho Chi Minh Sandals?
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I am going back to colt45 for that reason - availability for brass and rounds up in the woods if I need to...
I would be hard pressed to take either the 45/70 or the 30/30... Probably one or the other... though the 30/30 rounds are probably more available. Actually, what would probably be best is a 410 single shot with a range of shells and a barrel insert for a .22LR... Other than for people and griz. Survival-wise, I mean... I've already got big iron and rounds cached up there, but I don't thing that's all that good on the carry... I would assume to be sticking to brush and trying not to make noise... So that 410 and a break-down bow would be of greater use.
I have taken whitetails with .410 rifled slugs (one shot kills). It'd seem a mite anemic for Griz, but better than birdshot...
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Bad enough these bungwipes want to tell what you can carry, now they want to dictate what you can wear.
What's next? Work boots? Sneakers? Ho Chi Minh Sandals?
@Smokin Joe it’s all about denial of self defense and the ability of a person to protect themselves.
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@Smokin Joe it’s all about denial of self defense and the ability of a person to protect themselves.
They want to make us all dependent slaves, just like the welfare moms. How's that 'protection' thing going in the inner cities (Chicago, New Orleans, Baltimore, Detroit, NYC, SF...etc.)?
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Bad enough these bungwipes want to tell what you can carry, now they want to dictate what you can wear.
What's next? Work boots? Sneakers? Ho Chi Minh Sandals?
Approved haircuts?
(https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/news/2018/08/17/TELEMMGLPICT000171847265_trans%2B%2ButubNGxeqbD0m2XylzINLiOoem_3qpp9C-iKHR23jxY.jpeg)
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I have taken whitetails with .410 rifled slugs (one shot kills). It'd seem a mite anemic for Griz, but better than birdshot...
Yeah. I have knocked a deer with a 410 too, and a .22LR (stinger)... I would be fairly confident with a pistol even... It ain't what you got, it's where you put it... :)
To a degree anyhoo... Would not admire trying such things against bigger game - elk or moose... and certainly not bear, not to mention griz. It's still where you put it, but placement becomes all the more important, because the risk is far greater. To the animal and to me. Consequences for failure are not worth the risk.
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@Victoria33
As I said, I have no need... I am seldom where people go, and I am usually where I can step off into the woods... At worst a short ride in the pickup. And if I hit the woods I am gone. Disappeared. And there ain't many with the cajones to follow an armed, pissed off hillbilly into heavy bush, even if he could. Don't y'all worry none.
@roamer_1
You and I were going to get married. I am glad we called that off because I could not live in the woods. wink777
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It won’t penetrate Level III and IIIa soft armor, but the energy transfer would probably incapacitate the wearer.
@edpc
I don't know about these levels. Please explain these levels - what they mean. Thanks, edpc.
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@edpc
I don't know about these levels. Please explain these levels - what they mean. Thanks, edpc.
@Victoria33
Here’s a reference chart.
https://www.justnet.org/pdf/Understanding-Armor-Protection.pdf (https://www.justnet.org/pdf/Understanding-Armor-Protection.pdf)
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@Victoria33
Here’s a reference chart.
https://www.justnet.org/pdf/Understanding-Armor-Protection.pdf (https://www.justnet.org/pdf/Understanding-Armor-Protection.pdf)
@edpc
Thanks, friend.
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@roamer_1
You and I were going to get married. I am glad we called that off because I could not live in the woods. wink777
@Victoria33
Yeah... And draggin your old man around would make it kinda awkward... :shrug:
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They want to make us all dependent slaves, just like the welfare moms. How's that 'protection' thing going in the inner cities (Chicago, New Orleans, Baltimore, Detroit, NYC, SF...etc.)?
I think this picture might give some indication as to the answer to that question @Smokin Joe.
(https://scontent-dfw5-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/45857458_732782530389279_4106867712918028288_n.jpg?_nc_cat=1&_nc_oc=AQndOKcvua4wpAab2v4iLNeVvdBAvN8NGf4jG05LQYCICLfuJGsYUS9anCeApMyrThY&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-1.xx&oh=770f37ca294587eabf556bc3cf9a57e5&oe=5DCC3807)
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@Smokin Joe it’s all about denial of self defense and the ability of a person to protect themselves.
@txradioguy @Smokin Joe
Close,but not quite there.
What it is REALLY about is the establishment of a world-wide fascist-communist system that controls every aspect of the masses minds and actions. No detail of your life is too trivial for them to control it. What they want is flesh-machines to mindlessly do their bidding so the world is safe and comfortable for them and their familes.
This is raw POWER,so far advanced over mere finances that money isn't even an issue. If you have the kind of power they are seeking,you don't even need money because anything and everything you want or need is already yours. All you have to do is ask for it,and your minions will deliver it to you.
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They want to make us all dependent slaves, just like the welfare moms. How's that 'protection' thing going in the inner cities (Chicago, New Orleans, Baltimore, Detroit, NYC, SF...etc.)?
@Smokin Joe
And there you have it.
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@Smokin Joe
And there you have it.
@sneakypete and with their overt threats yesterday to the SCOTUS over how they intend to rule in the NYSRA v. City of New York case shows the lengths (so far) that they're wiling to go to make us dependent slaves.
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@sneakypete and with their overt threats yesterday to the SCOTUS over how they intend to rule in the NYSRA v. City of New York case shows the lengths (so far) that they're wiling to go to make us dependent slaves.
@txradioguy
There has never been any doubt of this in my mind. One universal law of nature is "Masters ALWAYS need slaves."
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@txradioguy
There has never been any doubt of this in my mind. One universal law of nature is "Masters ALWAYS need slaves."
And the one reason we haven't been turned into slaves is the thing that gets us called extremists absolutists and lawless.
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@sneakypete
You said, "No detail of your life is too trivial for them to control it."
Bob and I talked about this yesterday. In order to function, I must have a certain medication that the government does not want me to have. I would have to go every month to the family doc to get another prescription.
I am now going now to a Ortho pain specialist at a large Ortho practice that treats every bone in your body. They have ortho surgeons that are specialized. One does feet, one does knees, one does hands and shoulders. One does back surgeries.
They have the capability of sending the script for my med and renewing it the same way every time it runs out. I don't have to go there, just call them I am out and they send the script to the pharmacy. I only have to go there once every three months for a check-up of how I am doing. The government has not gotten to them - yet.
Bob and I talked about how government keeps taking liberty away. We have a law that requires us to wear a seat belt. If a cop finds you in your car and you have no seat belt on, you get a big fine. The government follows you every day with laws against your liberty.
If a law passes you can't buy armor to protect yourself, that is another BIG law that takes away liberty. If this law passes, will those owning armor have to turn them in? It would not surprise me if this happened.
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And the one reason we haven't been turned into slaves is the thing that gets us called extremists absolutists and lawless.
I beg to differ @txradioguy. When anyone or anything has a prior claim to the fruits of your labor you ARE a slave.
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And the one reason we haven't been turned into slaves is the thing that gets us called extremists absolutists and lawless.
@txradioguy
Sticks and stones may break my bones if I don't blow your head off first.
You can quote me on that one.
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I beg to differ @txradioguy. When anyone or anything has a prior claim to the fruits of your labor you ARE a slave.
I started to say (not completely) and I realize we're only as free as the length of our leash where the Federal Government is concerned these days...but I mean completely slaves like the Chinese...the people in Venezuela or the old USSR.
All countries that don't have a 2nd Amendment or any kind of RKBA fir their citizens.
If the Libs and their enablers on the right get their way we WILL be slaves like the people of those countries I mentioned.
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@sneakypete
You said, "No detail of your life is too trivial for them to control it."
Bob and I talked about this yesterday. In order to function, I must have a certain medication that the government does not want me to have. I would have to go every month to the family doc to get another prescription.
@Victoria33
Sadly,there is a very large group of people in this country who are only happy if they never have to make any decisions for themselves,and they all vote Dim.
There are,and can not be,any legal slaves in America,but you can not pass a law that will prevent natural slaves from looking for a willing master. The mentality of these people seems to be "If I am not allowed to make any decisions,nothing bad in my life that happens to me is MY fault!"
The one thing they do love doing in whining about how life is unfair,and this is directly related to them voting for Masters instead of Public Servants.
There is NOTHING you,I,or anyone else can do to alter the nature of "natural-born slaves".
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@Victoria33
Sadly,there is a very large group of people in this country who are only happy if they never have to make any decisions for themselves,and they all vote Dim.
There are,and can not be,any legal slaves in America,but you can not pass a law that will prevent natural slaves from looking for a willing master. The mentality of these people seems to be "If I am not allowed to make any decisions,nothing bad in my life that happens to me is MY fault!"
The one thing they do love doing in whining about how life is unfair,and this is directly related to them voting for Masters instead of Public Servants.
There is NOTHING you,I,or anyone else can do to alter the nature of "natural-born slaves".
Those who fervently wish to be absolved of the need to make decisions and accept responsibility for those decisions make willing slaves, and they are legion. They live in places where they don't have to mow the lawn, where they don't have to skin their dinner, where they can always blame someone else for their shortcomings.
While some may be genetically predisposed to such behaviour, for the most part, it, as is the spirit of independence and self-reliance is a taught behaviour.