The Briefing Room
General Category => National/Breaking News => Topic started by: mountaineer on May 22, 2014, 11:41:28 am
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'You should all be ashamed of yourselves': Sister of dead 9/11 responder slams museum officials for hosting cocktail party
The National September 11 Memorial & Museum hosted a black-tie, invite-only affair Tuesday night. Among the swanky attendants were former Mayor Bloomberg and Condé Nast honchos. Family members of Sept. 11, 2001, victims are appalled anyone would celebrate on sacred ground.
BY Edgar Sandoval , Dan Friedman , Rich Schapiro /
NEW YORK DAILY NEWS /
Published: Wednesday, May 21, 2014, 12:28 PM
/ Updated: Thursday, May 22, 2014, 5:38 AM
Anger seeped from her fingertips after learning that a bunch of VIPs partied and sipped fine wine on the sacred grounds of the 9/11 Museum, where her brother’s remains are buried.
“You enjoy dinner & drinks on top of my brothers grave last night douchebags?” tweeted Robert Shay Jr.’s sister.
Shay, 27, of Staten Island, was a husband, a father and a bond broker for Cantor Fitzgerald.
His outraged sister blasted Condé Nast, former Mayor Michael Bloomberg and the National September 11 Memorial & Museum for the sickening black-tie shindig meant to recognize supporters and donors.
“You should all be ashamed of yourselves,” the sister posted.
The woman’s disgust was shared by dozens of visitors attending Wednesday’s public opening of the museum — including a group of first responders who had been turned away the day before as staff set up for the party.
“You don’t have cocktail parties at a cemetery,” fumed Joe Kisonas, 54, a retired FDNY fire marshal from Rockland County.
Kisonas and two of his retired first-responder buddies were confused when a museum staffer denied them entry at 5 p.m. Tuesday, saying “they were closing to clean.”
“They lied to us,” said Kisonas, of Rockland County. “Just tell us they are having a gathering.”
Kisonas’ pal, Matt Degennaro, a retired NYPD officer, said they waited until the last day of the museum’s free preview for 9/11 ...
Rest of story and photos at New York Daily News (http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/9-11-museum-bosses-defend-party-article-1.1800542)
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Meanwhile ...
9/11 museum’s planned ‘comfort food’ cafe is inappropriate
By Steve Cuozzo
New York Post (http://nypost.com/2014/05/22/911-museums-planned-comfort-food-cafe-is-inappropriate/)
May 22, 2014 | 5:09am
If the National September 11 Memorial & Museum gets you down — all those unbearable, last-words-to-loved-ones recordings, bloodied shoes and falling-body images — get over it with “comfort food,” seasonal farm products and locally made booze.
The just-opened museum unflinchingly, unforgettably, enshrines the horror of 9/11 for future generations. But the message sent by plans for a café on top of the horrific artifacts is: Never forget . . . to pig out!
This summer, Danny Meyer’s Union Square Events is to open an 80-seat Pavilion Cafe inside the museum.
When I read that it would have “New York-made draft beers and American wines on tap,” I thought I’d had a few too many myself.
The great restaurateur promises a “soothing” experience, modeled on the “contemplative” spirit of a tea room.
Whew!
But the brains behind the museum apparently regard their cathartic masterpiece as just another cultural venue like MoMA or the Whitney, where Meyer also runs restaurants.
I can go for tomato soup and grilled cheese after staring at Picassos for a few hours. My appetite isn’t the same after a tour through hell.
Memorial/museum president Joe Daniels argues that such solemn sites as Gettysburg and Israel’s Yad Vashem have restaurants, too.
But Gettysburg was fought 151 years ago, and Yad Vashem is not at the site where the Holocaust took place. The 9/11 Museum is where the terrorist attack took place a mere 13 years ago — and where remains of 1,115 unidentified victims are stored.
“We’re not doing this for crass or commercial reasons,” Meyer told me. In fact, the cafe is supposed to make money, although Meyer says it will pay the museum a “significantly above-market” rent and a percentage of proceeds, but, “We’re not at liberty” to discuss terms.
But the issue isn’t just profit. A gift shop selling tacky Twin Towers tchotchkes is inappropriate enough. A bar and grill by any name on top of burnt fire trucks and human ashes is just plain gross.
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Denis Hamill: Would they have partied if their relatives were among the dead? The 9/11 Museum is not the 40/40 Club, it is no place to party
The 'VIPs' who thought it was a good idea to drink wine above the human remains of 9/11 victims should be ashamed.
NEW YORK DAILY NEWS (http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/hamill-partied-relatives-dead-article-1.1801497) /Thursday, May 22, 2014, 12:11 AM
For shame.
Would they party if their relatives were among the 1,115 dead whose remains were downstairs?
That’s the question for the people who sipped bubbly and nibbled crab cakes at the black-tie, invitation-only party at the National September 11 Memorial & Museum on Tuesday.
If the unidentified remains of your son, daughter, brother, sister, mother, father, wife or husband, friend or loved one were entombed in the subbasement at Ground Zero, would you be drinking wine and eating shrimp cocktail in the lobby of a museum dedicated to the darkest day in the history of New York City?
I don’t think so.
To start with, the most moving part of the museum is that it makes you feel that all those who died were part of the family of New York. The footage of the ordinary guys and gals arriving for work at the 110-story towers on that ordinary Tuesday morning, not knowing it could be their last morning on Earth, is what gives this museum its extraordinary power. I didn’t see any of them in black tie or evening gowns .
This is a celebration of the hardworking New Yorkers who went to the World Trade Center to support themselves and their families, to save for dreams not yet realized, and then were obliterated by a collection of religious fanatics in a monstrous act of mass murder.
When you see the beautiful faces on the posters of the missing, you see the faces of the City of New York. They could have been any of us.
The dead belonged to all of us because the terrorist attacks were not just against the people in the towers. The terrorists had struck every New Yorker. And Ground Zero became a bottomless hole in our collective heart.
We all mourned. We all cried. The whole city fell silent when the bagpipes wailed and names of the dead were read at Ground Zero.
It sure didn’t read like a VIP list.
I felt that same reverent, respectful, inclusive sorrow when I walked through the 9/11 museum last week, seeing again the footage of the planes hitting the towers, the artifacts of the dead and the survivors, the celebration of heroes like FDNY Capt. Paddy Brown and NYPD Officer Moira Smith , who almost certainly knew that this would be their final tour as they kept working to save the innocent as the towers teetered.
Neither was dressed in formal attire that terrible day.
No, they wore the rugged uniforms of first responders like the ones turned away from the museum Tuesday so staff could prepare for the VIP party.
Walking through the museum, I thought of working-class victims I knew like receptionist Peggy Conner, big sister of my grammar school pal Kevin Burns, who perished in a Cantor Fitzgerald office.
“I find it ghoulish and insane to have a party over the remains of the 9/11 dead like my sister,” said Burns, a Vietnam vet. “The museum has a VIP list drinking wine. Meanwhile, my other sister, Pat Cuozzo, almost got arrested on the day the museum opened because she refused to pay admission to add a photo of my lost sister to the memorial wall. It’s a disgrace.”
The museum works because it is a celebration of ordinary New Yorkers who died on 9/11, the common people who could have been any of us. When I left the museum I felt a lot of swirling emotions. The last thing I felt like was partying.
To learn that this dignified shrine was turned into a lounge with a guest list of big shots who came to party above the remains of the unidentified dead made me realize that some people think they are even more important than the fallen of 9/11.
Get it straight: The 9/11 museum is not the 40/40 Club or a movie premiere or a gallery opening. This is a shrine dedicated to the memory of the common people who died in an unspeakable act of war on America.
And just as you don’t throw a barbecue on the field at Gettysburg and you don’t booze cruise next to the warship Arizona, you do not sip wine and yuk it up with other “VIPs” at a museum honoring the 9/11 dead.
For shame.
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If I was Robert Shay and I had died on 9/11 I think I would want my sister to go on with her life and not obsess over my memory. I would also want life to go on, and since schmoozing parties among elites are a part of life, they should happen as well. Memorials and funerals are for the living. The living should use the event to accommodate their needs, not the needs of the dead.
I am no fan of NYC elitist liberals, but come on. Using one's dead brother to hurl insults and score political points is too much.
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If I was Robert Shay and I had died on 9/11 I think I would want my sister to go on with her life and not obsess over my memory. I would also want life to go on, and since schmoozing parties among elites are a part of life, they should happen as well. Memorials and funerals are for the living. The living should use the event to accommodate their needs, not the needs of the dead.
I am no fan of NYC elitist liberals, but come on. Using one's dead brother to hurl insults and score political points is too much.
Excuse me?
How about you go and open up a bottle of wine at the tomb of the Unknown Soldier and see what happens to you.
Maybe you've been dulled by the passage of time, sir, but not me.
Rent a god-damned hotel conference room up the street for your 'celebration. The WTC site should be off-limits.
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Excuse me?
How about you go and open up a bottle of wine at the tomb of the Unknown Soldier and see what happens to you.
Maybe you've been dulled by the passage of time, sir, but not me.
Rent a god-damned hotel conference room up the street for your 'celebration. The WTC site should be off-limits.
I see your point, but this is not a tomb. This is a museum. A celebration upon the opening of a museum seems to me to be a perfectly appropriate thing to do. The fact that people are going on with their lives -- laughing, playing, eating and drinking, raising money for charity, having children, wrestling with tragedies -- is a testament to the dead because they died precisely so we could continue to have our freedom. If I were among the dead, seeing people having a celebration on the site of my demise would warm my heart for the precise reason that it meant they were thinking about themselves and their needs, and not about me.
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....The fact that people are going on with their lives -- laughing, playing, eating and drinking, raising money for charity, having children, wrestling with tragedies -- is a testament to the dead because they died precisely so we could continue to have our freedom.
No sir. That doesn't fly. They went to work that Tuesday morning just like you.
They were murdered by crazy fanatics. Their deaths were NOT "precisely so we could continue to have our freedom".
At the very least, they should wait until all next of kin of the victims have died of old age, etc..
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No sir. That doesn't fly. They went to work that Tuesday morning just like you.
They were murdered by crazy fanatics. Their deaths were NOT "precisely so we could continue to have our freedom".
Well, we are going to just have to disagree on this one. If you come to my funeral, feel free to have a good time. Eat, drink and be merry. If I come to yours, I'll be reverential.
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The museum sits on the site where all those people died, so it essentially is a tomb, isn't it?
Here's the original story in the NY Daily News (http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/9-11-museum-hosts-alcohol-fueled-party-night-opening-article-1.1800072):9/11 Museum, which sits on unidentified remains of attack victims, hosts alcohol-fueled party night before opening
Former Mayor Michael Bloomberg and Condé Nast honchos were among the attendees at the VIP event Tuesday that turned away some first responders during party preparations.
BY Alfred Ng, Dan Friedman NEW YORK DAILY NEWS
Wednesday, May 21, 2014, 3:00 AM
On the eve of its grand opening to the public, the 9/11 Museum in lower Manhattan closed its doors to all but VIPs.
The sacred site that contains the remains of 1,115 unidentified victims became a private club for invited guests Tuesday night, sources told the Daily News — and some first responders were turned away during party preparations.
Former Mayor Mike Bloomberg and Condé Nast honchos were among those who nibbled crab cakes and shrimp cocktail hors d'oeuvres at the black tie affair, billed as a dedication ceremony, according to sources.
But one museum employee at the event, who spoke on condition of anonymity, described it as a festive affair.
“They were drinking, eating and laughing when this is pretty much a gravesite,” the employee said.
About 60 guests attended the soiree from 6:30 to 9:30 p.m.
The Information Desk on the museum’s lower level was converted into a bar for the night, the employee said.
“I don’t think alcohol should be allowed in there. It’s a sacred ground and they desecrated it,” the worker added.
Condé Nast is picking up the tab for all visitors on opening day Wednesday.
Tuesday was the last day that first responders could tour the site for free before it opens to the general public — and several were turned away that afternoon so the museum could prepare for the party, sources said.
Among those denied entry were an NYPD officer who had come with this wife, the worker said.
Another group of firefighters was asked to leave early and left the site in tears.
The 9/11 Museum has come in for heavy criticism from some survivor families as it tries to balance its dual roles as tourist site and shrine.
John Feal, a 9/11 responder and advocate, was angered by the party.
“Everyone who lost a loved one in 9/11 should be outraged,” he said. “Shame on the museum.”
Attempts to contact the 9/11 Museum, Condé Nast and Bloomberg late Tuesday were not successful.
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Well, we are going to just have to disagree on this one. If you come to my funeral, feel free to have a good time. Eat, drink and be merry. If I come to yours, I'll be reverential.
I understand, Victor....not trying to give you hard time here.
Seeing as how the TWO of us can't agree....imagine how it is when almost 3,000 are involved?
I can still 'see' those people jumping...choosing that instead of burning alive. Maybe I'm just too sensitive.... :shrug:
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The museum sits on the site where all those people died, so it essentially is a tomb, isn't it?
Here's the original story in the NY Daily News (http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/9-11-museum-hosts-alcohol-fueled-party-night-opening-article-1.1800072):
If I buy a house from an estate knowing that someone died in that house, does that mean I cannot hold parties in that house?
It reminds me of a guy I knew when I was in the real estate business. He bought a house very cheap right after there was a murder/suicide in it. A man fought with his wife and then killed the whole family and then himself. Every Halloween he would have a party and re-enact the crime. Now, some people would be offended by that. But it strikes me as a very human thing to do.
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Seeing as how the TWO of us can't agree....imagine how it is when almost 3,000 are involved?
That's just the thing. The fact that 3,000 lives were involved makes it even more imperative that we go on living.
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If I buy a house from an estate knowing that someone died in that house, does that mean I cannot hold parties in that house?
It reminds me of a guy I knew when I was in the real estate business. He bought a house very cheap right after there was a murder/suicide in it. A man fought with his wife and then killed the whole family and then himself. Every Halloween he would have a party and re-enact the crime. Now, some people would be offended by that. But it strikes me as a very human thing to do.
Are the victims of that murder suicide buried in the basement? [/s]
Are you seriously equating your example with what happend that September 11th? :whistle:
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I see your point, but this is not a tomb. This is a museum. A celebration upon the opening of a museum seems to me to be a perfectly appropriate thing to do. The fact that people are going on with their lives -- laughing, playing, eating and drinking, raising money for charity, having children, wrestling with tragedies -- is a testament to the dead because they died precisely so we could continue to have our freedom. If I were among the dead, seeing people having a celebration on the site of my demise would warm my heart for the precise reason that it meant they were thinking about themselves and their needs, and not about me.
Yes, it IS a tomb, and it should be treated as such.
Partying there is way out of line. WAY out of line.
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If I buy a house from an estate knowing that someone died in that house, does that mean I cannot hold parties in that house?
It reminds me of a guy I knew when I was in the real estate business. He bought a house very cheap right after there was a murder/suicide in it. A man fought with his wife and then killed the whole family and then himself. Every Halloween he would have a party and re-enact the crime. Now, some people would be offended by that. But it strikes me as a very human thing to do.
Obviously, as DC has pointed out, your comparison isn't valid.
This would be more like having a party over the U.S.S. Arizona at Pearl Harbor.
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Wonder what the reaction would have been if all those first responders had decided they had some parties to attend and decided not to rush to the burning towers to rescue those inside.
Evidently there is no low too low for Bloomers and his ilk. Let's never forget how they chose to party on the graves of those lost in the attack.
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For me, this comes to mind - if I was one of the victims of 9/11 that perished in those buildings that day - I would want my country to pursue those bastards with steely resolve and not stop until we had VANQUISHED them once and for all!
At least, with Pearl Harbor and the Holocaust victims - there is some little sense of closure in that we defeated them. I don't have that sense of vindication or closure with 9/11 - quite the opposite. It feels like an open oozing sore that never can heal.
This museum IS a tomb! I think if one of my loved ones had perished there, it would bother me too. Yes, celebrate their lives - but never FORGET and never REST until the enemy has been obliterated!
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For me, this comes to mind - if I was one of the victims of 9/11 that perished in those buildings that day - I would want my country to pursue those bastards with steely resolve and not stop until we had VANQUISHED them once and for all!
At least, with Pearl Harbor and the Holocaust victims - there is some little sense of closure in that we defeated them. I don't have that sense of vindication or closure with 9/11 - quite the opposite. It feels like an open oozing sore that never can heal.
This museum IS a tomb! I think if one of my loved ones had perished there, it would bother me too. Yes, celebrate their lives - but never FORGET and never REST until the enemy has been obliterated!
I must agree with you on this issue.
I understand and appreciate the laudable human impulse expressed elsewhere in this space, that as human beings we must move on with our lives and not be afraid to laugh and sing and drink and make merry. So we should. Our very humanity demands an appreciation of the life that has been given us.
But not there.
There is a time and a place for everything, and in this event there is no cause to celebrate, especially while standing in the very footprint of what too many of us still pretend was a "tragedy" or a "catastrophe" but which was in truth, an act of mass murder.
The building that now casts its shadow over that giant footprint is in part, a rebuke to the murderers. The waterfalls that today softly cascade upon the tombs of incinerated innocents, with their names etched in stone above two great square holes in the ground serve both as a reminder and a warning. Life does go on, but we must never forget and never again allow our complacency and tolerance of evil to permit such a thing to happen again.
By conducting a party on such a site, we demonstrate neither remembrance, nor reverence, nor respect, nor reflection. Instead, it demonstrates a will to forget, and a willful blindness.
Many of those responsible for evil acts like those that resulted in the need for a WTC memorial are still at large.
And they are watching us.
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With respect:
By conducting a party on such a site, we demonstrate neither remembrance, nor reverence, nor respect, nor reflection. Instead, it demonstrates a will to forget, and a willful blindness.
After every terrorist bombing in London, the pubs are packed. Restaurants are packed. Clubs are packed, with hours long queues to get in. It's about the only way we, as a people, can give the terrorists one giant Eff you.
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If I was Robert Shay and I had died on 9/11 I think I would want my sister to go on with her life and not obsess over my memory. I would also want life to go on, and since schmoozing parties among elites are a part of life, they should happen as well. Memorials and funerals are for the living. The living should use the event to accommodate their needs, not the needs of the dead.
I am no fan of NYC elitist liberals, but come on. Using one's dead brother to hurl insults and score political points is too much.
Victor, I agree with you.
Jesus himself said to the young man who wanted to follow him but had to bury his father "Let the dead bury the dead." Life is for the living, and life goes on, in all its forms. Obsessing over the dead or using them to beat others over the head is unseemly.
Anybody ever been to an Irish wake? Lots of drinking and laughing and celebrating.
Come on, folks. A cemetery full of bones is not "sacred ground." It's just a cemetery full of bones. The souls of those who died on 9/11 are in glory doing what?
Celebrating the vision of God.
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Not trying to be flippant here, but isn't Shay an Irish surname?
I've attended more than one Irish wake...
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Victor, I agree with you.
Jesus himself said to the young man who wanted to follow him but had to bury his father "Let the dead bury the dead." Life is for the living, and life goes on, in all its forms. Obsessing over the dead or using them to beat others over the head is unseemly.
Anybody ever been to an Irish wake? Lots of drinking and laughing and celebrating.
Come on, folks. A cemetery full of bones is not "sacred ground." It's just a cemetery full of bones. The souls of those who died on 9/11 are in glory doing what?
Celebrating the vision of God.
There's a difference between a cemetary and a killing field. I have in fact drunk toasts to the departed at their gravesites, and laughed with friends and families at wakes. I would not be comfortable doing so at Dachau or Auschwitz.
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There's a difference between a cemetary and a killing field. I have in fact drunk toasts to the departed at their gravesites, and laughed with friends and families at wakes. I would not be comfortable doing so at Dachau or Auschwitz.
I agree.
And there's a huge difference between this, and celebrating the life of a loved one at a wake with merriment.
A dispassionate (for the victims) party held at the 'death camp' of thousands is completely inappropriate.
I don't believe it has to do with individuals who have lost loved ones' getting on with their lives, but of respect for those whose lives were lost to an evil enemy.
Your comparison with Auschwitz is a good one. There is a forest outside Kiev, Ukraine where Stalin took his 'enemies' out and mowed them down and buried them in shallow graves. Their families posted photos of them on trees afterwards, and when we were there decades after it happened, they were still there, and the forest untouched.
When we visited the site, there was a hushed silence in remembrance of those lost.
The victims of 9/11 deserve respect, and their graves should be honored.
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For me, this comes to mind - if I was one of the victims of 9/11 that perished in those buildings that day - I would want my country to pursue those bastards with steely resolve and not stop until we had VANQUISHED them once and for all!
At least, with Pearl Harbor and the Holocaust victims - there is some little sense of closure in that we defeated them. I don't have that sense of vindication or closure with 9/11 - quite the opposite. It feels like an open oozing sore that never can heal.
This museum IS a tomb! I think if one of my loved ones had perished there, it would bother me too. Yes, celebrate their lives - but never FORGET and never REST until the enemy has been obliterated!
There cannot be 'closure' when the evil enemy who killed thousands of Americans is thriving, and growing like a cancer all over the world, in part, because our punk sympathizing president has encouraged it.
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I agree.
And there's a huge difference between this, and celebrating the life of a loved one at a wake with merriment.
A dispassionate (for the victims) party held at the 'death camp' of thousands is completely inappropriate.
I don't believe it has to do with individuals who have lost loved ones' getting on with their lives, but of respect for those whose lives were lost to an evil enemy.
Your comparison with Auschwitz is a good one. There is a forest outside Kiev, Ukraine where Stalin took his 'enemies' out and mowed them down and buried them in shallow graves. Their families posted photos of them on trees afterwards, and when we were there decades after it happened, they were still there, and the forest untouched.
When we visited the site, there was a hushed silence in remembrance of those lost.
The victims of 9/11 deserve respect, and their graves should be honored.
The ghosts of Katyn Forest and those of the Twin Towers may never be avenged, but they deserve the reverence of the living for as long as their memory lives on.
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There's a difference between a cemetary and a killing field. I have in fact drunk toasts to the departed at their gravesites, and laughed with friends and families at wakes. I would not be comfortable doing so at Dachau or Auschwitz.
We'll just agree to disagree. I don't believe 9/11, horrible as it was, is in any way comparable to the methodical attempt to eliminate an entire nationality of people.
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The ghosts of Katyn Forest and those of the Twin Towers may never be avenged, but they deserve the reverence of the living for as long as their memory lives on.
Indeed.
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We'll just agree to disagree. I don't believe 9/11, horrible as it was, is in any way comparable to the methodical attempt to eliminate an entire nationality of people.
And just what do you think radical Islam is about? Its central aim is to conquer or eliminate all who oppose it, whether by means of Sharia law or by the sword. Beyond such global ambitions, the fact is that they have murdered many thousands of innocent people, and any historical locus of such brutality ought not be treated as just another graveyard.
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Great thread. I am however a little confused.
Those pool and barbecue parties over the Memorial Day weekend, are they a good thing or a bad thing?
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Great thread. I am however a little confused.
Those pool and barbecue parties over the Memorial Day weekend, are they a good thing or a bad thing?
They're unrelated.
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They're unrelated.
My post was a set-up.
I am sorry that you bit, but I am glad that you did.
This thread and this discussion has cemented in place my absolute conviction that September 11 should NEVER be made a national holiday, because if we do, the remembrance of the day will morph into another party day.
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My post was a set-up.
I am sorry that you bit, but I am glad that you did.
This thread and this discussion has cemented in place my absolute conviction that September 11 should NEVER be made a national holiday, because if we do, the remembrance of the day will morph into another party day.
I seriously considered not 'biting,' because what you were doing was fairly obvious, but I couldn't help myself. :patriot:
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I seriously considered not 'biting,' because what you were doing was fairly obvious, but I couldn't help myself. :patriot:
You're Dean to my Jerry.
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You're Dean to my Jerry.
I always liked Dean better anyway...... ^-^
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I always liked Dean better anyway...... ^-^
You would too, wouldn't you?
You bad girl you.
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You would too, wouldn't you?
You bad girl you.
Well, being male as you are, you may not see it, but Dean was a heck of a lot cuter than Jerry.... :whistle:
Besides which, he was an Ohio boy, and grew up just a few miles south of where I did in an even uglier rust belt city. I HAD to like him better!
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There's a difference between a cemetary and a killing field. I have in fact drunk toasts to the departed at their gravesites, and laughed with friends and families at wakes. I would not be comfortable doing so at Dachau or Auschwitz.
Exactly, Andy.
Also, Music mentioned the US Arizona Memorial at Pearl Harbor. Can't agree with that example, because the deceased were in fact military targets. The 3,000 at WTC were all civilians.
Hiroshima or Nagasaki would be a more appropriate comparison....and I sure wouldn't want to party at their respective 'ground zero'...even though it was almost 70 years ago.
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Exactly, Andy.
Also, Music mentioned the US Arizona Memorial at Pearl Harbor. Can't agree with that example, because the deceased were in fact military targets. The 3,000 at WTC were all civilians.
Hiroshima or Nagasaki would be a more appropriate comparison....and I sure wouldn't want to party at their respective 'ground zero'...even though it was almost 70 years ago.
Oh for God's sake!! (that's a long "a" on "sake").
With all due respect, that's ridiculous. I suspect there are bars and restaurants and Japanese people who party in Nagasaki and Hiroshima, both of which were devastated by the bombs.
As Victor pointed out above, is it wrong for someone to have any kind of fun in a house in which someone was murdered?
Most Irish have the proper attitude toward the dead.
Sean and Brendan were sitting at the bar and, after several pops, Sean said "Brendan, if I die first, could you pour a pint of McEwen's (Scotch) on me grave after I'm gone?"
Brendan looked up and said "Sure, Sean, if I can pass it through me kidneys first."
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Well, being male as you are, you may not see it, but Dean was a heck of a lot cuter than Jerry.... :whistle:
Besides which, he was an Ohio boy, and grew up just a few miles south of where I did in an even uglier rust belt city. I HAD to like him better!
Dino Crocetti, the patron saint of Steubenville (just up the road from me)!
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Dino Crocetti, the patron saint of Steubenville (just up the road from me)!
Yes, indeed! Growing up south of Youngstown (where I acquired a taste for swarthy men, even though I ended up marrying a blonde!), I knew well of Dino's lovely hometown.
In fact, my Dad played football for Youngstown South High (sitting on the bench) and they played Steubenville High where young Dino also sat on the bench, so it's possible that my Dad sat across the field from Mr. Crocetti during the years they were both in High School, but not getting into the game.
(Long before I was born, of course! ^-^ )
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Oh for God's sake!! (that's a long "a" on "sake").
With all due respect, that's ridiculous. I suspect there are bars and restaurants and Japanese people who party in Nagasaki and Hiroshima, both of which were devastated by the bombs.
As Victor pointed out above, is it wrong for someone to have any kind of fun in a house in which someone was murdered?
Most Irish have the proper attitude toward the dead.
Sean and Brendan were sitting at the bar and, after several pops, Sean said "Brendan, if I die first, could you pour a pint of McEwen's (Scotch) on me grave after I'm gone?"
Brendan looked up and said "Sure, Sean, if I can pass it through me kidneys first."
Why do you seem incapable of disagreeing agreeably, sinkspur?
There is, of course, a clear difference between Nagasaki, Hiroshima and the WTC Memorial site.
NO one here is saying that there should be no parties in all of NYC. Only at the place where the dead still lie buried.
Sort of like the USS Arizona. Or the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier.
Why do you look down on those who find it inappropriate?
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mass wrote:
[[ I see your point, but this is not a tomb...]]
But it -IS- a "tomb". With ashes scattered all around.
Not long after the World Trade Center attacks, I was possibly the first to post the suggestion that nothing be built on the site, that it become a memorial and perhaps a burial ground (a la Arlington) for those killed in the war with islam.
Unfortunately, it is a "war" that we are NOT "winning", in any sense of the word, even after being involved in Iraq and Afghanistan.
A "museum" is ok, I guess.
Do they drink wine and celebrate at the Holocaust museum down in DC ??
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Andy wrote above:
[[ Many of those responsible for evil acts like those that resulted in the need for a WTC memorial are still at large.
And they are watching us. ]]
Yes. From the White House....
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Andy also wrote:
[[ There's a difference between a cemetary and a killing field. I have in fact drunk toasts to the departed at their gravesites, and laughed with friends and families at wakes. I would not be comfortable doing so at Dachau or Auschwitz. ]]
I've been to Dachau, walked through the gas chambers and stuck my head into the ovens.
What happened at "ground zero" was an act of war. A war against Western Civilization, and a demonstration of islam's intent for us. It was no ordinary place of ordinary death.
I was at ground zero soon after the attack, when you could walk on the nearby streets and leave your footprints in the dust -- dust that may have been that of the victims as well as that of the collapsed structures.
That space is hallowed ground, as much so as the cemetery at Arlington. I chafed that they built anything there, but New Yorkers are essentially stupid.
But having said that, The West these days doesn't seem all that much brighter.
The attack on the World Trade Center and Pentagon was a Clarion Call -- a sounding of the cry of battle. We didn't start the fight, but if we wish to survive as a culture, we have no choice to finish it.
And this is one fight where the end -WILL JUSTIFY- the means.
The only option is to fight for survival, whatever it takes.
If we cannot find the intestinal fortitude for that, we will lose.
I have yet to see much evidence that we are fighting to win...
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NO one here is saying that there should be no parties in all of NYC. Only at the place where the dead still lie buried.
Haven't been there lately but the last time I visited i noticed no shortage of places where partying took place pretty much 24/7 .
Pick one of those and keep it off of that hallowed ground!
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Why do you seem incapable of disagreeing agreeably, sinkspur?
There is, of course, a clear difference between Nagasaki, Hiroshima and the WTC Memorial site.
NO one here is saying that there should be no parties in all of NYC. Only at the place where the dead still lie buried.
Sort of like the USS Arizona. Or the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier.
Why do you look down on those who find it inappropriate?
You mistake disagreement for condescension.
It's fine if you find someone having a drink at the 9/11 museum inappropriate.
Some of us don't.
And, by the way, I don't think my disagreement with DC was disagreeable. Nor does he, apparently.
Let's leave it at that.
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You mistake disagreement for condescension.
It's fine if you find someone having a drink at the 9/11 museum inappropriate.
Some of us don't.
And, by the way, I don't think my disagreement with DC was disagreeable. Nor does he, apparently.
Let's leave it at that.
I'll suggest this: if you had once worked on the 79th floor of the South Tower, as I once did, you might feel a bit differently about having a drink in the basement where people you once had worked with were atomized as their families watched in horror on TV.
I understand that you are not being intentionally disrespectful. But there is a difference too, between watching a stranger's house burn, and watching your neighbor's house burn, and most explicitly, watching yours do the same.
Perhaps part of the problem in deciding what is appropriate behavior in this event is that we as Americans are conflicted about it. On 9/11, we were united as a nation and as a people. We were attacked and we rallied around one another. Today, the meaning of those events is less well agreed-upon, as we have resumed the trends toward cultural fragmentation and social atomization that long preceded the events of September 11th.
Put another way: what happened to the Towers is in fact happening to America, and to see it reflected back in our own attitudes can be unsettling or perhaps at times, a bit more than that.
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I like the concept of the Irish wake, m'self.
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Haven't been there lately but the last time I visited i noticed no shortage of places where partying took place pretty much 24/7 .
Pick one of those and keep it off of that hallowed ground!
Yep.
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You mistake disagreement for condescension.
It's fine if you find someone having a drink at the 9/11 museum inappropriate.
Some of us don't.
And, by the way, I don't think my disagreement with DC was disagreeable. Nor does he, apparently.
Let's leave it at that.
Well, now. Had you reduced your condescension to this level of politeness, I wouldn't have said a word about your overall disagreeable attitude. (btw, DC hasn't been back. No idea if your post hit him the same disagreeable way).
We obviously have different views on this, which is fine.
I happen to be in agreement with those who believe this is hallowed ground, and not a place for partying.
For me, it doesn't matter that it was civilians vaporized, and not military. It was an act of war, and most of those who died were Americans on American soil.
There is really no complete parallel in history, so trying to equate 9/11 with any other event in history is not going to work. Thus, we have only come up with approximations.
The bottom line is, for me, this is sacred ground, and the situation is very, very different than celebrating someone's life at a wake (we Baptist/Presbyterians don't do that), nor is it like having bars in rebuilt Hiroshima. It is more like the forest in Ukraine I mentioned earlier, where innocent people were slaughtered by evil, which has remained a place of quiet reflection for decades.
I don't think the place should be desecrated by revelry.
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Andy wrote above:
[[ Put another way: what happened to the Towers is in fact happening to America, and to see it reflected back in our own attitudes can be unsettling or perhaps at times, a bit more than that. ]]
Interesting that you put it that way.
A few months' back, I made the remark to a friend that Western Civilization was deteriorating and might reach the point where it would suddenly collapse as did the World Trade Center towers after the attack.
That the fall of The West might happen extraordinarily fast, once it begins....
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Exactly, Andy.
Also, Music mentioned the US Arizona Memorial at Pearl Harbor. Can't agree with that example, because the deceased were in fact military targets. The 3,000 at WTC were all civilians.
Hiroshima or Nagasaki would be a more appropriate comparison....and I sure wouldn't want to party at their respective 'ground zero'...even though it was almost 70 years ago.
I might. My uncle got killed on Guam by a Jap sniper. And he wouldn't have been there in the first place, except for December 7, 1941.
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Oh for God's sake!! (that's a long "a" on "sake").
With all due respect, that's ridiculous. I suspect there are bars and restaurants and Japanese people who party in Nagasaki and Hiroshima, both of which were devastated by the bombs.
As Victor pointed out above, is it wrong for someone to have any kind of fun in a house in which someone was murdered?
Most Irish have the proper attitude toward the dead.
Sean and Brendan were sitting at the bar and, after several pops, Sean said "Brendan, if I die first, could you pour a pint of McEwen's (Scotch) on me grave after I'm gone?"
Brendan looked up and said "Sure, Sean, if I can pass it through me kidneys first."
You obviously have either missed my point or you're "probably a Redneck"! :laugh:
I was picturing going over there on the anniversary date and make a public toast that it helped win the war. You don't rub their faces in it.
Am quite aware there's a new city over that soil and life goes on. It just wouldn't be a classy thing to do, IMO.
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Great thread. I am however a little confused.
Those pool and barbecue parties over the Memorial Day weekend, are they a good thing or a bad thing?
Personally, I think having a kegger and BBQ in the middle of Arlington National Cemetery would be in poor taste, and could see how others could find it offensive. Or taking a vacation to Normandy Beach and having a beach volleyball tournament on Memorial Day. That's just me, though.
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Personally, I think having a kegger and BBQ in the middle of Arlington National Cemetery would be in poor taste, and could see how others could find it offensive. Or taking a vacation to Normandy Beach and having a beach volleyball tournament on Memorial Day. That's just me, though.
:beer:
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goopo :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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Scratching graffiti: excusable "grief" or vandalism?
Visitors scratch graffiti into 9/11 Memorial name plaques
By Philip Messing
May 26, 2014 | 10:22pm
It’s the graffiti of the grief-stricken.
Bereaved friends and family members are scratching personalized messages into the 152 bronze panels that list victims at the 9/11 Memorial Museum, sources told The Post.
While Port Authority police are compelled to file reports on the illegal “scratchiti,” no arrests have been made, and pursuing the mournful misdemeanors is not a high priority, sources said.
“Can you imagine the conflict a cop would feel about having to bust someone for leaving a personal message to honor a dead relative who was murdered at Ground Zero?” a law-enforcement source asked.
A PA spokesman couldn’t provide exact numbers of scratchiti incidents at the site, but sources said they have encountered roughly 40 anguished messages scratched into the bronze name plates.
“It happens, but not every day,” confirmed a groundskeeper who meticulously dusts the area each day.
The heavily secured memorial site is ringed with surveillance cameras, but law-enforcement officials have declined to pursue investigations based on possible footage of the vandals in action.
Cops have also opted not to try to identify the scratchers based on the names they put their messages next to.
There have been no reports of disrespectful scratchiti on the plates or traditional graffiti tags, sources said.
The heartbreaking messages of love, grief and remembrance are typically brief but sincere, according to the sources.
People scratch the notes in quickly in order to avoid detection by security staffers.
“Love4Ever,” read one message next to the name of a 9/11 victim.
“There have been instances when scratches have been discovered on the bronze panels of the memorial,” said Michael Frazier, a spokesman for the National September 11th Memorial & Museum. “Our staff works very hard to address them immediately.
“The panels are cared for by hand and with a deep sense of responsibility and sensitivity by our dedicated staff,” he said.
Memorial-site staffers who discover the messages are required to contact PAPD authorities, who then fill out a criminal mischief report, sources said.
Maintenance workers are then dispatched to quickly reapply a coat of “black patina” to the plates to get rid of the scratchiti and restore the original shine.
Deeper cuts require more complicated rehabilitation jobs, the sources said.
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Scratching graffiti: excusable "grief" or vandalism?
You know, this is why I think government ought to just get out of the memorial business and leave it to the citizens. When the 9/11 crash site in Pennsylvania was a makeshift folk art mish mash of pictures and genuine, heart-felt expression it was way, way better than it is now. The same is true for the memorial that was at the twin towers. Government only gets involved in these things because politicians want to put feathers in their caps, and provide jobs for architects and construction workers. But left on their own, people will do very amazing things that may not look "professional" but have much more emotional impact.
Besides, if something is worth remembering, there will be no stopping people from leaving remembrances. Look at all those crosses we see by the highways every day.