The Briefing Room

General Category => Editorial/Opinion/Blogs => Topic started by: Dexter on November 08, 2018, 05:19:34 am

Title: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Dexter on November 08, 2018, 05:19:34 am
It has to be some, right? All that concrete for our bridges and highways is pretty expensive, and then you've got the military. Public education? In your opinion what's an acceptable amount? Which programs are you okay with contributing to?
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: dfwgator on November 08, 2018, 05:29:52 am
Are we talking Federal, State, Local? 
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Dexter on November 08, 2018, 05:32:43 am
Are we talking Federal, State, Local?

All of the above. What parts of government expenditure should be kept and which parts should go away? How should what's left be paid for?
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Frank Cannon on November 08, 2018, 05:41:27 am
All of it. I'm off the grid now and only doing transactions in chickens and home made dream catchers.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: dfwgator on November 08, 2018, 05:43:00 am
Military, Roads, basic Infrastructure.

Certainly not to pay able-bodied people to sit on their ass.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Dexter on November 08, 2018, 05:45:27 am
Military, Roads, basic Infrastructure.

Certainly not to pay able-bodied people to sit on their ass.

What about public education? Medicare/medicaid? How much do you think all of what you'd end up accepting as necessary might cost? How much should you be expected to pay into that cost?
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: RoosGirl on November 08, 2018, 05:45:48 am
All of it. I'm off the grid now and only doing transactions in chickens and home made dream catchers.

Chickens?  Really?  You interested in trading for a pair of flip flops I make out of old Amazon boxes or dress shirts from old tarps and duct tape?
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Dexter on November 08, 2018, 05:46:31 am
Chickens?  Really?  You interested in trading for a pair of flip flops I make out of old Amazon boxes or dress shirts from old tarps and duct tape?

What?

That's a TERRIBLE trade.

Don't do it Frank.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Frank Cannon on November 08, 2018, 05:50:36 am
Chickens?  Really?  You interested in trading for a pair of flip flops I make out of old Amazon boxes or dress shirts from old tarps and duct tape?

Yeah. I do way better with the dream catchers than the chickens and that shit is prime dream catcher material.

(https://dollarstorecrafts.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/dreamcatcher-step1.jpg)
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: corbe on November 08, 2018, 06:19:53 am
   I don't give a $hit how much taxes you suckers pay just don't legalize/Tax my pot. Besides trump announced today that 2019 is infrastructure year.  I was under the impression that Dominoes was fixin the streets.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: roamer_1 on November 08, 2018, 06:31:40 am
You are asking the wrong question.
Why do you automatically assume government is the answer?

Example: It has been a while, but last I looked the average cost to educate a kid via the government was around 10k per year... At the same time, I was paying 6k a year for excellent private Christian school.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Frank Cannon on November 08, 2018, 06:37:00 am
You are asking the wrong question.
Why do you automatically assume government is the answer?

Example: It has been a while, but last I looked the average cost to educate a kid via the government was around 10k per year... At the same time, I was paying 6k a year for excellent private Christian school.

What if you are Jewish? Then you are screwed.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: DB on November 08, 2018, 06:40:07 am
What it was constitutionally authorized to fund.

Which is a tiny fraction of what it is doing these days.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: roamer_1 on November 08, 2018, 06:50:24 am
What if you are Jewish? Then you are screwed.

Nah. Jews have private schools too.

You're only screwed if your mom is an ex-hippie bunny-hugger who insists on home-school. Then it's tofu and rice cakes 24/7...
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Frank Cannon on November 08, 2018, 07:10:30 am
Nah. Jews have private schools too.

You're only screwed if your mom is an ex-hippie bunny-hugger who insists on home-school. Then it's tofu and rice cakes 24/7...

Awesome. My kid only eats hamburgers and Friday at the Catholic school would be a real bitch.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: catfish1957 on November 08, 2018, 11:19:02 am
Yeah. I do way better with the dream catchers than the chickens and that shit is prime dream catcher material.



I knew that 100 extra bucks going to Amazon was buying you something.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Applewood on November 08, 2018, 12:06:41 pm
It has to be some, right? All that concrete for our bridges and highways is pretty expensive, and then you've got the military. Public education? In your opinion what's an acceptable amount? Which programs are you okay with contributing to?

I'm ok with payimg taxes to fund the item you mention, except:

(a) Duplication, triplication, etc. etc. of agencies at all levels of government looking for tax dollars for the same thing.  I pay school taxes on my property to fund the local school district.  Why am I paying state and federal taxes for "education?"  And the worst part of it is the kids in my neighborhood can recite every social justice talking point, but they can't read, write or do math.  Where is my money for education going?

(b) The demand for increased taxes or new taxes to fund something for which we have already paid a short time ago.  For example, didn't taxpayers pay for "shovel-ready" jobs in the Obama administration?  Now we hear that the roads are still in bad shape and more money is needed.  Where did all that money spent during Obie's reign go?  I can tell you that on my side of PA, it wasn't spent on infrastructure.  Roads and bridges here are still a mess.  Or the two spending spree bills signed by Trump back to back allegedly for the military.  What happened to the money  spent under the first bill?

And the above brings me to

(c) A lack of public accountability.  I don't like that my elected officials vote on tax increases or new taxes without any investigation or accounting to show there is a need.  Maybe congress and our state and local officials are being informed of facts and figures, but we the people are not.  Am I supposed to take the word of government bureaucrats that more or new taxes are needed?  No!  There should be a law or rule that before more money is spent, the books should be open to the public and the public should be able to tell its elected officials whether to implement new taxes or raise existing ones. 



Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: goatprairie on November 08, 2018, 12:49:03 pm
The proper answer: only as much as is absolutely needed. There is no exact set amount you should allow the gov. at any level to take.
And the people spending the money have to be watched like hawks.
In my county the county commissioners were given a certain amount of tax money to spend on various things including road construction/repair.
They chose to spend just about nothing on road repair with the result that many roads in the county are in a terrible state.
Who got blamed? Scott Walker.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Sanguine on November 08, 2018, 02:11:50 pm
God only asks for 10%.  Seems like the government's cut should be even less.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Dexter on November 08, 2018, 02:17:47 pm
God only asks for 10%.  Seems like the government's cut should be even less.

It's ridiculous how many obscenely wealthy corporations and people get away with paying way less taxes than they're meant to in my opinion. If there was a flat tax that was actually enforced on the rich, no bullshit, I think there would be plenty of money.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Sanguine on November 08, 2018, 02:22:23 pm
It's ridiculous how many obscenely wealthy corporations and people get away with paying way less taxes than they're meant to in my opinion. If there was a flat tax that was actually enforced on the rich and the businesses they down, no bullshit, I think there would be plenty of money.

Corporations don't pay taxes - they pass the cost on to the consumers.  People pay taxes.

And, as you well know, "rich people" already do pay most of the taxes.  The lower 50% of earners pay little to no taxes.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Dexter on November 08, 2018, 02:26:56 pm
People pay taxes.

"Corporations are people."

Quote
"rich people" already do pay most of the taxes.

A lot of rich people avoid a lot of the taxes they're supposed to pay. Remember the Panama Papers? When these people don't give what they're supposed to who do you think covers the bill? I don't know about you, but I'm not rich enough to have some fancy tax genius save me from the government.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Sanguine on November 08, 2018, 02:36:01 pm
"Corporations are people."

You avoided the point that they just pass the taxes on to the consumers.  People foot the bill, the taxes are just passed through the corporations.

Quote
A lot of rich people avoid a lot of the taxes they're supposed to pay. Remember the Panama Papers? When these people don't give what they're supposed to who do you think covers the bill? I don't know about you, but I'm not rich enough to have some fancy tax genius save me from the government.

I understand that this is the popular mythology, but I have not found it to be true with people I have actually known.  Rich people pay lots and lots of taxes.  And, no, I'm not rich enough to need some fancy tax genius.  Turbotax works fine for me. 

The Panama Papers?  You mean a leak of financial data for some global/international companies?  How do you fit that into this discussion?
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: DCPatriot on November 08, 2018, 02:37:33 pm
All of it. I'm off the grid now and only doing transactions in chickens and home made dream catchers.

You and me, both. 
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Dexter on November 08, 2018, 02:46:53 pm
Rich people pay lots and lots of taxes.

A lot of them avoid lots of taxes too. Surely you're not contesting that? They need to pay the amount mandated by the government with no funny business, whatever that number is. If they shouldn't pay so much then we should move levers in government to make that happen, but they need to pay what the law expects.

The Panama Papers?  You mean a leak of financial data for some global/international companies?  How do you fit that into this discussion?

It was a lot more than that. The Panama Papers revealed an incredible amount of tax fraud/avoidance by the ultra rich.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Dexter on November 08, 2018, 02:47:45 pm
Quote
Boeing reported an $82 million tax refund last year, but made $5.9 billion in U.S. pre-tax profits during the same period

Is this reasonable?
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Bigun on November 08, 2018, 03:12:06 pm
You are asking the wrong question.
Why do you automatically assume government is the answer?

Example: It has been a while, but last I looked the average cost to educate a kid via the government was around 10k per year... At the same time, I was paying 6k a year for excellent private Christian school.
@roamer_1

I have a now much dated report from our former Texas Comptroller of Public Accounts (Susan Combs) which shows The state wide average spending per student in our more than 1350 public schools systems to be around $8K and several spending more than twice that amount. That is just for K- 12. Doesn't get into higher education spending at all and much of that higher ed spending (much more than most imagine) goes to remediation efforts to bring the graduates of the afore mentioned K-12 institutions up to speed enough to do college level work. 

Long story short. We are getting royally screwed by public education in Texas and I would be very surprised to find it any different elsewhere.


Susan Combs is a FINE lady and current serves as Department of the Interior Assistant Secretary for Policy, Management, and Budget in the Trump administration.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: goatprairie on November 08, 2018, 03:16:52 pm
Is this reasonable?
Exactly how do you define reasonable? Do taxes exist for legitimate purposes, or are they there, like Obama stated, for "fairness" i.e. punish the rich for making a lot of money?

Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Dexter on November 08, 2018, 03:16:55 pm
No public education would lead to high rates of illiteracy in the states. Not everybody can afford to pay for a private school. You think crime is bad now? Just wait until people have even less access to education.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: dfwgator on November 08, 2018, 03:17:52 pm
No public education would lead to high rates of illiteracy in the states. Not everybody can afford to pay for a private school. You think crime is bad now? Just wait until people have even less access to education.

Education should come from State and Local Taxes, Feds need to stay out of it.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Dexter on November 08, 2018, 03:18:06 pm
Do taxes exist for legitimate purposes

Without taxes we cannot be a nation. Their purpose is clear I think.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Dexter on November 08, 2018, 03:19:46 pm
Education should come from State and Local Taxes, Feds need to stay out of it.

If that can be done without crippling public education I am fine with it. I care about the results. I want people in the United States to be the most educated in the world.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Bigun on November 08, 2018, 03:27:50 pm
It's ridiculous how many obscenely wealthy corporations and people get away with paying way less taxes than they're meant to in my opinion. If there was a flat tax that was actually enforced on the rich, no bullshit, I think there would be plenty of money.

@Dexter

Here is your one and only Econ 101 lesson from me.  Short and sweet.

Corporations DO NOT pay taxes! Never have and never will.  ALL of those taxes and ALL of their attendant compliance costs accrue to one, or any possible combination of, three possible places:


1. Consumers of the product(s) or service(s) produced as a component of the sales price of those things


2. Employees of the corporation in the form of reduced pay and benefits


3. Stake holders in the corporation in the form of reduced ROI

In all cases ALL of the taxes and their attendant costs of compliance accrue to individual taxpayers and NOT the corporation itself!
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on November 08, 2018, 03:30:10 pm
We need to reacquaint ourselves with the "what for" before we can discuss "how much".  @Dexter
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Dexter on November 08, 2018, 03:35:36 pm
@Dexter

Here is your one and only Econ 101 lesson from me.  Short and sweet.

Corporations DO NOT pay taxes! Never have and never will.  ALL of those taxes and ALL of their attendant compliance costs accrue to one, or any possible combination of, three possible places:


1. Consumers of the product(s) or service(s) produced as a component of the sales price of those things


2. Employees of the corporation in the form of reduced pay and benefits


3. Stake holders in the corporation in the form of reduced ROI

In all cases ALL of the taxes and their attendant costs of compliance accrue to individual taxpayers and NOT the corporation itself!

Thanks for that Bigun. I guess I'm confused though...

if

Corporations DO NOT pay taxes!

then why did Boeing get an 82 million dollar tax refund? I'm not trying to be obtuse; I don't understand.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: dfwgator on November 08, 2018, 03:37:48 pm
If that can be done without crippling public education I am fine with it. I care about the results. I want people in the United States to be the most educated in the world.

We spend more on public education per student than any other country, and it isn't even close.

The problem is you can't motivate someone to learn who doesn't want to.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: DCPatriot on November 08, 2018, 03:41:00 pm
Thanks for that Bigun. I guess I'm confused though...

if

Corporations DO NOT pay taxes!

then why did Boeing get an 82 million dollar tax refund? I'm not trying to be obtuse; I don't understand.

Perhaps it was set up that way as payment/reimbursement for just-completed Contract?
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: GrouchoTex on November 08, 2018, 03:51:16 pm
It's ridiculous how many obscenely wealthy corporations and people get away with paying way less taxes than they're meant to in my opinion. If there was a flat tax that was actually enforced on the rich, no bullshit, I think there would be plenty of money.

Corporations merely "collect" the tax.
When you buy any goods or services, the taxes  they have to pay are built into the price you pay.
A flat tax or national sales (VAT tax) could work fine.
It would keep the Congress from writing into law tax breaks for their donors.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Bigun on November 08, 2018, 03:52:03 pm
Thanks for that Bigun. I guess I'm confused though...

if

Corporations DO NOT pay taxes!

then why did Boeing get an 82 million dollar tax refund? I'm not trying to be obtuse; I don't understand.

Money does move back and forth between the government's coffers and those of corporations but that has nothing at all to do with where the costs, ALL of them, eventually accrue.  Large corporations typically employ an army of accountants and tax attorneys and the costs of doing that winds up at the destination(s) I have already described.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: mirraflake on November 08, 2018, 03:52:24 pm
@Dexter



Corporations DO NOT pay taxes! Never have and never will.


My wife and I own 3 companies (corporations)   Trust me we pay taxes at the end of the corporate year.

@Bigun
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Bigun on November 08, 2018, 03:56:29 pm
Corporations merely "collect" the tax.
When you buy any goods or services, the taxes  they have to pay are built into the price you pay.
A flat tax or national sales (VAT tax) could work fine.
It would keep the Congress from writing into law tax breaks for their donors.

 888high58888  But forget about anything based on INCOME such as a flat rate INCOME tax.  That taxes the exact wrong end of the spectrum and necessarily retains the IRS!  The funders had it figured out and we should return to what they universally advised. Taxes on articles of consumption only!
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Dexter on November 08, 2018, 03:58:48 pm
Taxes on articles of consumption only!

How much of what the government currently pays for would we have to cut back on if we did that? Could we even pay for our military as is?
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Bigun on November 08, 2018, 04:00:28 pm
My wife and I own 3 companies (corporations)   Trust me we pay taxes at the end of the corporate year.

@Bigun

@mirraflake

No you don't!  You merely collect them, along with ALL of your compliance costs, to one of the three places I detailed in my post to Dexter above. If you don't you will soon be an ex business owner.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: GrouchoTex on November 08, 2018, 04:03:36 pm
888high58888  But forget about anything based on INCOME such as a flat rate INCOME tax.  That taxes the exact wrong end of the spectrum and necessarily retains the IRS!  The funders had it figured out and we should return to what they universally advised. Taxes on articles of consumption only!

I would agree, and would rather have a consumption tax than an income tax.
But, if we have an income tax, I'd rather it be a flat tax than the way it is now.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Bigun on November 08, 2018, 04:03:59 pm
How much of what the government currently pays for would we have to cut back on if we did that? Could we even pay for our military as is?

None!

Educate yourself here https://fairtax.org/research-library/taxes-and-tax-reform
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: catfish1957 on November 08, 2018, 04:04:06 pm
My wife and I own 3 companies (corporations)   Trust me we pay taxes at the end of the corporate year.

@Bigun

As a corp./ company your taxes are part of a business expense.   You "never" passed that cost down to your customers/consumers?
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: skeeter on November 08, 2018, 04:06:10 pm
Corporations merely "collect" the tax.
When you buy any goods or services, the taxes  they have to pay are built into the price you pay.
A flat tax or national sales (VAT tax) could work fine.
It would keep the Congress from writing into law tax breaks for their donors.

My wife and I have both sole proprietorships and a corporation. When paying taxes I sure can't discern the difference.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Bigun on November 08, 2018, 04:09:29 pm
My wife and I have both sole proprietorships and a corporation. When paying taxes I sure can't discern the difference.

@skeeter

And that is by design!  It does not however change the economic realties I have laid out above one iota.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: mirraflake on November 08, 2018, 04:13:31 pm
@mirraflake

No you don't!  You merely collect them, along with ALL of your compliance costs, to one of the three places I detailed in my post to Dexter above. If you don't you will soon be an ex business owner.

1. Consumers of the product(s) or service(s) produced as a component of the sales price of those things
In todays highly competitive marketplace, online competition etc  if you add on to the consumer price people will stop buying from you. Many times corporations have to eat the increased cost. If it was so easy to just increase prices lol

2. Employees of the corporation in the form of reduced pay and benefits

If we did that to our employees today, their butts would be out the door  after their their two week notice. We have had to increase pay and benefits to keep employees.


3. Stake holders in the corporation in the form of reduced ROI

Yep we have taken a pay cut. Guess what? we still pay taxes on profits at the end of the year.


I'm going to tell my wife tonight we don't pay any corporates taxes. She need a laugh.

I work with hundreds of corporations and trust me 1. they just don't increase the price of their product or service, nearly all my business groups are increasing pay and benefits and yes most have less in their own paycheck

@Bigun
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: GrouchoTex on November 08, 2018, 04:16:49 pm
My wife and I own 3 companies (corporations)   Trust me we pay taxes at the end of the corporate year.

@Bigun

Not really true.

Example:

Let's say you need to sell your goods or service that you provide at $100.00 to make a profit, pay bills, employees, etc, without taxes.
Now, the Government comes along and say "give me 1/3" and you now have to sell your product for $150.00 to make the same profit you did at $100.00
Yes, you are writing the check to the IRS, but the people who are your customers are actually paying the tax.
You are merely collecting it from your customers.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Dexter on November 08, 2018, 04:20:21 pm
1. Consumers of the product(s) or service(s) produced as a component of the sales price of those things
In todays highly competitive marketplace, online competition etc  if you add on to the consumer price people will stop buying from you. Many times corporations have to eat the increased cost. If it was so easy to just increase prices lol

2. Employees of the corporation in the form of reduced pay and benefits

If we did that to our employees today, their butts would be out the door  after their their two week notice. We have had to increase pay and benefits to keep employees.


3. Stake holders in the corporation in the form of reduced ROI

Yep we have taken a pay cut. Guess what? we still pay taxes on profits at the end of the year.


I'm going to tell my wife tonight we don't pay any corporates taxes. She need a laugh.

I work with hundreds of corporations and trust me 1. they just don't increase the price of their product or service, nearly all my business groups are increasing pay and benefits and yes most have less in their own paycheck

@Bigun

You summed up well a lot of what I was thinking. I also see what Bigun is saying. I think reality ends up muddying up these waters and makes it all a lot more complicated than just "Corporations don't pay taxes."
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: mirraflake on November 08, 2018, 04:22:29 pm
As a corp./ company your taxes are part of a business expense.   You "never" passed that cost down to your customers/consumers?

I built an apartment complex back in 2004 andI did well for 10 years . Oil and gas companies came in around 2012 and brought in thousands of temporary workers.  Everyone and their brother built apartment complexes. A gas company built a 70 unit  a few blocks from mine.  The last year or so  all those workers moved on and now there is  a huge glut of apartments. 3/4 of them are empty.

I have had to lower my rents back to 2004 rates to keep people all the while having to pay increase in property tax.

Again tell a business corporation to just increase their pricers and they will laugh themselves silly.

@catfish1957
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Bigun on November 08, 2018, 04:23:02 pm
1. Consumers of the product(s) or service(s) produced as a component of the sales price of those things
In todays highly competitive marketplace, online competition etc  if you add on to the consumer price people will stop buying from you. Many times corporations have to eat the increased cost. If it was so easy to just increase prices lol

2. Employees of the corporation in the form of reduced pay and benefits

If we did that to our employees today, their butts would be out the door  after their their two week notice. We have had to increase pay and benefits to keep employees.


3. Stake holders in the corporation in the form of reduced ROI

Yep we have taken a pay cut. Guess what? we still pay taxes on profits at the end of the year.


I'm going to tell my wife tonight we don't pay any corporates taxes. She need a laugh.

I work with hundreds of corporations and trust me 1. they just don't increase the price of their product or service, nearly all my business groups are increasing pay and benefits and yes most have less in their own paycheck

@Bigun

@mirraflake

Thanks for confirming what I said!  Only individuals pay taxes!  Have a great day!
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: mirraflake on November 08, 2018, 04:26:46 pm
@mirraflake

Thanks for confirming what I said!  Only individuals pay taxes!  Have a great day!

You are playing word games.
@Bigun
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Bigun on November 08, 2018, 04:32:01 pm
You are playing word games.
@Bigun

@mirraflake

No sir!  Simply acquainting folks with economic FACTS!
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Bigun on November 08, 2018, 04:39:23 pm
You summed up well a lot of what I was thinking. I also see what Bigun is saying. I think reality ends up muddying up these waters and makes it all a lot more complicated than just "Corporations don't pay taxes."

@Dexter

No! It really isn't!  Only individuals pay taxes.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: mirraflake on November 08, 2018, 04:47:59 pm
@Dexter

No! It really isn't!  Only individuals pay taxes.

So, I just purchased a new copy machine for my business that  was me paying for it and not the corporation? 

You really have a weird way of looking at things..    And yes corporations pay taxes.  They only pay no taxes if the gov't does not tax corporations.

I'm trying to figure out your weird fixation argument that only individuals pay taxes.  My question is why and who cares?

@Bigun
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Bigun on November 08, 2018, 04:53:11 pm
So, I just purchased a new copy machine for my business that  was me paying for it and not the corporation? 

You really have a weird way of looking at things..    And yes corporations pay taxes.  They only pay no taxes if the gov't does not tax corporations.

I'm trying to figure out your weird fixation argument that only individuals pay taxes.  My question is why and who cares?

@Bigun


The copy machine goes on the debit side of your ledger just like the light bill, gas bill, and your taxes and compliance costs!

If you can't see that then there is no help for you.  Those are FACTS! You can think whatever you like but you cannot alter that.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: GrouchoTex on November 08, 2018, 04:57:32 pm


You really have a weird way of looking at things..    And yes corporations pay taxes.  They only pay no taxes if the gov't does not tax corporations.

I'm trying to figure out your weird fixation argument that only individuals pay taxes.  My question is why and who cares?

@Bigun

So, I just purchased a new copy machine for my business that  was me paying for it and not the corporation? 

The manufacturer of that copier sold it to a retailer at a higher price to cover the manufacturers tax burden.
The retailer sold it to you at a higher price to cover the retailers tax burden.
If you purchased this for your business, you too will add it in to your cost of doing business, which you have a choice to either absorb, or increase the rates you charge your costumer to recoup the cost, as you do now when you pay taxes.

See?

The copier manufacture does pay taxes, but he passes that cost to the retailer.
The retailer pays taxes, but he passed that cost to you.
You will pay taxes, and it is up to you to pass that cost onto customers.
I would think if you stop and think about it, you already do this, and have since day one.

@Bigun is correct.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: mirraflake on November 08, 2018, 04:59:38 pm
The copy machine goes on the debit side of your ledger just like the light bill, gas bill, and your taxes and compliance costs!



Wait I though you said only individuals paid corporate tax?   So now it's going onto the debit side of my ledger with all my other cost?

@Bigun
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Bigun on November 08, 2018, 05:02:40 pm
Wait I though you said only individuals paid corporate tax?   So now it's going onto the debit side of my ledger with all my other cost?

@Bigun

@mirraflake

YOU seem to be the one trying to play word games here but it isn't working.   :seeya:
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: EasyAce on November 08, 2018, 05:46:37 pm
What it was constitutionally authorized to fund.

Which is a tiny fraction of what it is doing these days.
@DB
King George III was a piker compared to King Washington DC.

Taxation is Robbery (https://fee.org/resources/taxation-is-robbery-by-frank-chodorov/)
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: DB on November 08, 2018, 07:25:29 pm
Wait I though you said only individuals paid corporate tax?   So now it's going onto the debit side of my ledger with all my other cost?

@Bigun

You don't normally pay taxes on the debt side of your ledger.

Now...

Capital equipment is more complicated than it has been made out to be on this thread. Higher cost capital equipment generally has to be depreciated over time on the businesses tax return. So it takes time to offset the expense for tax purposes. Some equipment (computers for example) can become obsolete faster than the government allows you to depreciate it. And with the addition of inflation over the time it takes to depreciate something you may never fully offset your tax burden on the purchase.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: roamer_1 on November 08, 2018, 09:36:01 pm
Long story short. We are getting royally screwed by public education in Texas and I would be very surprised to find it any different elsewhere.

@Bigun
That's right... Not to mention the always superior education available from pretty well any private school. When I fell on hard times and could no longer afford Christian school for my kids, they literally loafed for nearly two years before encountering 'new' information in the public system.

There is no question about it - Like with just about everything else, the private sector does a far superior job when compared to government... and at a much better price.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: roamer_1 on November 08, 2018, 09:38:42 pm
No public education would lead to high rates of illiteracy in the states. Not everybody can afford to pay for a private school. You think crime is bad now? Just wait until people have even less access to education.

No... In fact, home-schooled kids invariably get better grades than public school kids do.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: roamer_1 on November 08, 2018, 09:39:50 pm
If that can be done without crippling public education I am fine with it. I care about the results. I want people in the United States to be the most educated in the world.

Then get government out of it.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: roamer_1 on November 08, 2018, 09:44:51 pm
My wife and I own 3 companies (corporations)   Trust me we pay taxes at the end of the corporate year.

@Bigun

@mirraflake

If you are making profit, then the costs of those taxes are obviously transmitted to your clients.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: skeeter on November 08, 2018, 09:53:11 pm
@mirraflake

If you are making profit, then the costs of those taxes are obviously transmitted to your clients.

In some industries, usually ones in the business of selling commodities, it is not possible to raise prices concomitant with corporate or any other tax increases.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Sanguine on November 08, 2018, 09:55:36 pm
In some industries, usually ones in the business of selling commodities, it is not possible to raise prices concomitant with corporate or any other tax increases.

True, but Roamer's point still stands - if you have enough $ left over to take profits, then someone is paying all of those costs including the taxes.  That would be the customers.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: skeeter on November 08, 2018, 09:59:04 pm
True, but Roamer's point still stands - if you have enough $ left over to take profits, then someone is paying all of those costs including the taxes.  That would be the customers.

I'm involved in a business that can only charge a certain amount or I'll lose my customers. True, for the time being I'm able to pay my taxes and make some profit.

But with each increase in taxes, rent, etc I take home a little less. So its hard for me to accept his/her point, philosophically anyway.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: roamer_1 on November 08, 2018, 10:01:34 pm
In some industries, usually ones in the business of selling commodities, it is not possible to raise prices concomitant with corporate or any other tax increases.

I understand that - But you are still making profit, or you would cease doing business. You are merely making less profit. EVERYTHING, from Schedule C, to Depreciation, to Taxes... all of it is figured into that bottom line - IOW, EVERYTHING is figured in and passed on as cost to your clients in order to produce that profit. The entire cost is built into the end product.

@Bigun  is right. Any business structure is merely a mechanism, The end is paid for by the consumer. 
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: roamer_1 on November 08, 2018, 10:07:52 pm
I'm involved in a business that can only charge a certain amount or I'll lose my customers. True, for the time being I'm able to pay my taxes and make some profit.

But with each increase in taxes, rent, etc I take home a little less. So its hard for me to accept his/her point, philosophically anyway.

I feel your pain. But you are talking about profitability, even yet. If you can charge no more, and there is an increase on the debit side, your margin (profit) goes down. Inevitably, at some point, the margin is less than the effort it is worth, and you would be better off folding up and getting into something else... Or increase the price regardless and see how it goes... Either way, you are merely playing with the profit side. All the costs are necessarily passed on.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Sanguine on November 08, 2018, 10:26:23 pm
I'm involved in a business that can only charge a certain amount or I'll lose my customers. True, for the time being I'm able to pay my taxes and make some profit.

But with each increase in taxes, rent, etc I take home a little less. So its hard for me to accept his/her point, philosophically anyway.

I understand that, but at the point you can't pass the costs on to your customers, what happens?
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Bigun on November 08, 2018, 10:39:41 pm
I'm involved in a business that can only charge a certain amount or I'll lose my customers. True, for the time being I'm able to pay my taxes and make some profit.

But with each increase in taxes, rent, etc I take home a little less. So its hard for me to accept his/her point, philosophically anyway.

@skeeter The hard fact is that the three places I spoke of earlier on this thread are the only places costs can accrue.  When a business can no longer recover all the  costs of doing business and enough extra to keep the stakeholders happy it makes no sense to keep it going.  Unfortunately some have found a way around that hard rule of economics via government subsidies.  The corn ethanol industry being a prime example.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: skeeter on November 08, 2018, 10:42:55 pm
I understand that, but at the point you can't pass the costs on to your customers, what happens?

We walk out on our lease.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Sanguine on November 08, 2018, 10:44:22 pm
We walk out on our lease.

Because you can't pass the costs on to your customers. 
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: skeeter on November 08, 2018, 10:46:19 pm
Because you can't pass the costs on to your customers.

Correct.

I've lost track of the reason for this line of discussion so I went back and looked at Bigun's original point. Its true, corporations typically don't pay taxes, they pass along those costs.

The distinction is lost on an individual who happens to have set up their small business a 'corporation' in order to limit personal liability. To them (me) there is very little difference between tax on them as an individual and tax on them as a 'corporation'.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: mirraflake on November 08, 2018, 10:52:36 pm
Unfortunately some have found a way around that hard rule of economics via government subsidies.  The corn ethanol industry being a prime example.

Farm subsidies to farmers keep food prices stable and realtively cheap.

 If the price of corn per bushel dropped really low and there was silos full of it  selling less than what is cost to plant and harvest , no farmers would plant it the following year and then there would be a shortage the following year(s) and the price would skyrocket.

You would have huge price swings in food and also worse yet, food shortages. One year a can of corn would be 25 cents , the next $8.00

Farmers also know by the price being stable they can purchase that new piece of equipment knowing the following years they have a market to sell their crops or at least enough profit to pay for the equipment. Farmers have enough to worry about, the weather, than worrying if the crop in their silos would sell

Our  economy could not survive with food shortages or huge price swings. Talk about  a hot mess, Third World style

@Bigun

Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: roamer_1 on November 08, 2018, 11:09:20 pm
The current conversation(s) are tangential to the original topic... But useful because It can lead the uninitiated to the fact that sticking it to businesses and the rich inevitably means sticking it to yourself. Every single regulation, every single tax, every single thing raked off that bottom line profit are things that !!!!YOU!!! pay for in increased retail price.

Returning to that original question with that in mind might induce epiphany.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Sanguine on November 08, 2018, 11:36:54 pm
Correct.

I've lost track of the reason for this line of discussion so I went back and looked at Bigun's original point. Its true, corporations typically don't pay taxes, they pass along those costs.

The distinction is lost on an individual who happens to have set up their small business a 'corporation' in order to limit personal liability. To them (me) there is very little difference between tax on them as an individual and tax on them as a 'corporation'.

Oh, I see what the issue was now.  OK, we're now in agreement.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: roamer_1 on November 08, 2018, 11:46:29 pm
Outside of the head-fake of personal income tax, and outside of the previously demonstrated insidious and exponential taxation and regulation of business mechanisms, I will add another aspect:

Every authority granted to government is authority taken away from the people.
Liberty IS responsibility.
When you are no longer responsible for the care of your elders, you have lost liberty.
When you are no longer responsible for the education of your children, you have lost liberty.
When you are no longer responsible for your own defense, you have lost liberty.

Law is by and large, written for the lawless. Taxation is the price of that law.

With that in mind, 'How much of your money should the government take? ' is answered with another question: How much liberty are you willing to give up?

Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Bigun on November 08, 2018, 11:53:59 pm
Outside of the head-fake of personal income tax, and outside of the previously demonstrated insidious and exponential taxation and regulation of business mechanisms, I will add another aspect:

Every authority granted to government is authority taken away from the people.
Liberty IS responsibility.
When you are no longer responsible for the care of your elders, you have lost liberty.
When you are no longer responsible for the education of your children, you have lost liberty.
When you are no longer responsible for your own defense, you have lost liberty.

Law is by and large, written for the lawless. Taxation is the price of that law.

With that in mind, 'How much of your money should the government take? ' is answered with another question: How much liberty are you willing to give up?

@roamer_1

An EXCELLENY post to which I will add only one thing at this time.  When you take a government subsidy it comes with many strings attached all of which infringe on your liberty
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: roamer_1 on November 08, 2018, 11:59:06 pm
@roamer_1

An EXCELLENY post to which I will add only one thing at this time.  When you take a government subsidy it comes with many strings attached all of which infringe on your liberty

 That's right. :beer:

Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Bigun on November 09, 2018, 12:02:11 am
I can't say it any better than it was said by an old white man who left this world a LONG time ago now.

"Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."

Daniel Webster

Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: roamer_1 on November 09, 2018, 12:05:45 am
I can't say it any better than it was said by an old white man who left this world a LONG time ago now.

"Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."

Daniel Webster

Oh, man! Is that ever a quote for the ages!
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: InHeavenThereIsNoBeer on November 09, 2018, 12:23:11 am
Farm subsidies to farmers keep food prices stable and realtively cheap.

 If the price of corn per bushel dropped really low and there was silos full of it  selling less than what is cost to plant and harvest , no farmers would plant it the following year and then there would be a shortage the following year(s) and the price would skyrocket.

You would have huge price swings in food and also worse yet, food shortages. One year a can of corn would be 25 cents , the next $8.00

Farmers also know by the price being stable they can purchase that new piece of equipment knowing the following years they have a market to sell their crops or at least enough profit to pay for the equipment. Farmers have enough to worry about, the weather, than worrying if the crop in their silos would sell

Our  economy could not survive with food shortages or huge price swings. Talk about  a hot mess, Third World style

@Bigun

That's what the futures markets are for.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Fishrrman on November 09, 2018, 12:30:47 am
Dexter is a leftist and he's tryin' to trap y'all.

How much should they "take"?

ZERO.
Nothing.
Zilch.
Nada.
Nicht.

How's that?

How much did the feds "take" from individuals before the 16th...?
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Axeslinger on November 09, 2018, 12:47:21 am
Fabulous conversation gang and why this place rocks.  And even though @Dexter is just trying to kick a hornets nest, it’s still been a nice productive thread...oh and @Bigun and @roamer_1  et al are absolutely correct.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Dexter on November 09, 2018, 01:15:29 am
No... In fact, home-schooled kids invariably get better grades than public school kids do.

Home schooling well requires one parent to not work usually, and they also need to be good at actually educating; not everybody can do that. A lot of households have two working parents and a lot of parents are not qualified to teach. If you got rid of public education illiteracy rates in this country would skyrocket.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Dexter on November 09, 2018, 01:18:56 am
And even though @Dexter is just trying to kick a hornets nest

I'm not exactly one to troll, as you may have noticed. I like good conversations on touchy subjects. These things need to be talked about.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Dexter on November 09, 2018, 01:23:52 am
he's tryin' to trap y'all.

If your logic is sound you won't be trapped by anything. I think my presence leads to a lot of good conversation. Do you disagree?
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: InHeavenThereIsNoBeer on November 09, 2018, 01:30:46 am
Home schooling well requires one parent to not work usually, and they also need to be good at actually educating; not everybody can do that. A lot of households have two working parents and a lot of parents are not qualified to teach. If you got rid of public education illiteracy rates in this country would skyrocket.

Or some that are good at teaching could take in a few neighbor kids for home schooling for a small fee.  Imagine how much more we could do for our kids if we didn't have to send all those tax dollars to DC to be redistributed, but instead used our education money directly on our childrens' education.  If you got rid of public education literacy rates in this country would skyrocket.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Dexter on November 09, 2018, 01:33:19 am
Or some that are good at teaching could take in a few neighbor kids for home schooling for a small fee.  Imagine how much more we could do for our kids if we didn't have to send all those tax dollars to DC to be redistributed, but instead used our education money directly on our childrens' education.  If you got rid of public education literacy rates in this country would skyrocket.

No matter how you slice it removing free access to education would increase rates of illiteracy, especially because they'd have no way to make education mandatory for children at that point. To me this seems incredibly obvious. In no universe would the removal of public education increase literacy rates.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Axeslinger on November 09, 2018, 01:37:58 am
I'm not exactly one to troll, as you may have noticed. I like good conversations on touchy subjects. These things need to be talked about.
@Dexter

I’ll agree with that when I take note of you conceding a point that you hadn’t previously.   

Please note, that was not an attack, you may have already done so.  And I will also give you credit for engaging in actual conversation.  I’m just saying that I’ve yet to meet an intellectually honest lib, so my spidey sense is on high alert.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: InHeavenThereIsNoBeer on November 09, 2018, 01:43:20 am
No matter how you slice it removing free access to education would increase rates of illiteracy, especially because they'd have no way to make education mandatory for children at that point. To me this seems incredibly obvious. In no universe would the removal of public education increase literacy rates.
 

There are plenty of "solutions" (to non-existent problems) if you just can't stand allowing parents to raise their children without proper national government oversight.  Expensive, inefficient, and often incompetent public schools aren't exactly producing a literacy rate to be proud of, or kids that even want to be literate.


Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Dexter on November 09, 2018, 01:44:50 am
@Dexter

I’ll agree with that when I take note of you conceding a point that you hadn’t previously.   

Please note, that was not an attack, you may have already done so.  And I will also give you credit for engaging in actual conversation.  I’m just saying that I’ve yet to meet an intellectually honest lib, so my spidey sense is on high alert.

Have you ever met a liberal that's against gun regulations? How about one that wants to keep out ALL IMMIGRANTS unless they make enough money to pay into the Federal income tax? Have you met one that thinks a private business should be allowed to tell gay people to piss off and get the hell out of their store? Every one of those positions I came to through discussion with conservatives. Sometimes I just want to see what y'all say, and sometimes I still disagree but let it go because I don't want the quality of discussion to devolve.


EDIT: How many liberals do you know that want to build the wall? How many are considering voting for Trump in 2020?
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Dexter on November 09, 2018, 01:45:35 am
 

There are plenty of "solutions" (to non-existent problems) if you just can't stand allowing parents to raise their children without proper national government oversight.  Expensive, inefficient, and often incompetent public schools aren't exactly producing a literacy rate to be proud of, or kids that even want to be literate.

Our public education isn't great, but I don't think scrapping it is the solution.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Axeslinger on November 09, 2018, 01:54:48 am
Our public education isn't great, but I don't think scrapping it is the solution.
Nope...just gotta scrap it at the federal level.   Like everything else, let there’s be 50 little petri dishes to see what works and what doesn’t AND that also gives people the option of voting with their feet if they don’t like the education their kids are receiving.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Dexter on November 09, 2018, 01:56:03 am
Nope...just gotta scrap it at the federal level.   Like everything else, let there’s be 50 little peteindishes to see what works and what doesn’t AND that also gives people the option of voting with their feet if they don’t like the education their kids are receiving isn’t up to par.

I am all about giving power to the states. I just want to make sure all the little ones can get an education; it's important.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Bigun on November 09, 2018, 01:58:45 am
I am all about giving power to the states. I just want to make sure all the little ones can get an education; it's important.

What they get in Public schools these day is NOT an education! It's an indoctrination!
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: dfwgator on November 09, 2018, 02:04:39 am
Our public education isn't great, but I don't think scrapping it is the solution.

You could trim 90% of the budget for the school district administration and not miss a beat.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: GrouchoTex on November 09, 2018, 02:05:23 am
I can't say it any better than it was said by an old white man who left this world a LONG time ago now.

"Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."

Daniel Webster

 :amen:
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: GrouchoTex on November 09, 2018, 02:15:02 am
Our public education isn't great, but I don't think scrapping it is the solution.

Scrapping it?
No.
As with most things in life, introduce some competition and the quality will improve.
Allow students in low performing schools to take that same amount of government dollars spent and apply those into a private school, and see what happens.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: DB on November 09, 2018, 02:32:52 am
Scrapping it?
No.
As with most things in life, introduce some competition and the quality will improve.
Allow students in low performing schools to take that same amount of government dollars spent and apply those into a private school, and see what happens.

You already know what happens...

The teachers union goes on the warpath and politicians who want their union money cave into them... Over and over...
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: roamer_1 on November 09, 2018, 02:48:52 am
Home schooling well requires one parent to not work usually, and they also need to be good at actually educating; not everybody can do that. A lot of households have two working parents and a lot of parents are not qualified to teach. If you got rid of public education illiteracy rates in this country would skyrocket.

@Dexter

Bass ackwards.
Out in the sticks, away from city ways, Women GET to stay home.
Children are still routinely home-schooled, and where the parents and grandparents might be unqualified, folks cooperate. Normally home-schooled kids spend far less time studying, and get far better grades.

And considering the high illiteracy rates and drop-out rates coming out of the public school system, I would say you are exactly wrong - That literacy and education rates would increase the closer you got to county/city/home controlled education.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: roamer_1 on November 09, 2018, 02:57:10 am
Expensive, inefficient, and often incompetent public schools aren't exactly producing a literacy rate to be proud of, or kids that even want to be literate.

@InHeavenThereIsNoBeer
That's right.
STUNNINGLY poor education rates. I can't imagine anyone defending the public school system.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: roamer_1 on November 09, 2018, 02:58:52 am
Our public education isn't great, but I don't think scrapping it is the solution.

I sure do. There are myriad solutions that are already proven to work better and cost far less.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: roamer_1 on November 09, 2018, 02:59:41 am
What they get in Public schools these day is NOT an education! It's an indoctrination!

BINGO!
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: DB on November 09, 2018, 03:17:47 am
The first public high school in the US was in 1821.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: roamer_1 on November 09, 2018, 03:31:23 am
Folks don't get that they can be independent of the system...
And that as a rule, life is much better without it.

It is like garden fresh vs. store bought. Without having experienced garden fresh, they just have no idea how much better it is.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: roamer_1 on November 09, 2018, 03:33:37 am
Self-Reliance.
It's an American thing.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Sanguine on November 09, 2018, 03:33:48 am
Home schooling well requires one parent to not work usually, and they also need to be good at actually educating; not everybody can do that. A lot of households have two working parents and a lot of parents are not qualified to teach. If you got rid of public education illiteracy rates in this country would skyrocket.

Not so, @Dexter, the literacy rate in the 13 Colonies was close to 100%.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Dexter on November 09, 2018, 04:15:30 am
Not so, @Dexter, the literacy rate in the 13 Colonies was close to 100%.

The world is a lot different now. You can't realistically make that comparison.



Is there nobody else in this thread that at least agrees that literacy rates in this country would go down if we removed public education? You wouldn't be able to mandate that children are educated without a public option. A lot of crappy parents would not take an interest in the education of their children. Children should not be punished for that and have their entire lives ruined by the fact that they missed vital opportunities.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: WarmPotato on November 09, 2018, 04:22:58 am
(Sees title) - IDEALLY, NONE
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: roamer_1 on November 09, 2018, 05:48:08 am
The world is a lot different now. You can't realistically make that comparison.



Is there nobody else in this thread that at least agrees that literacy rates in this country would go down if we removed public education? You wouldn't be able to mandate that children are educated without a public option. A lot of crappy parents would not take an interest in the education of their children. Children should not be punished for that and have their entire lives ruined by the fact that they missed vital opportunities.

So you are good with coercion and indoctrination. Got it.

Not me.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Dexter on November 09, 2018, 05:59:05 am
So you are good with coercion and indoctrination. Got it.

Not me.

What specifically do you think teachers are doing to indoctrinate children? They learn a lot. Our education system may not be the best in the world but people are definitely learning.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: roamer_1 on November 09, 2018, 06:08:27 am
What specifically do you think teachers are doing to indoctrinate children? They learn a lot. Our education system may not be the best in the world but people are definitely learning.

You are kidding, right?

Do you think it just a coincidence that teachers are overwhelmingly liberal? Why do you think that is?

And they aren't learning anything. Go read an 8th grade primer from the late 1800's, which college age kids can't get through nowadays.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Dexter on November 09, 2018, 06:11:51 am
Do you think it just a coincidence that teachers are overwhelmingly liberal? Why do you think that is?

You think 12 year olds are being taught liberal politics?
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: dfwgator on November 09, 2018, 06:13:42 am
You think 12 year olds are being taught liberal politics?

(https://media1.fdncms.com/arktimes/imager/u/original/5342549/zinn2.png)
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Frank Cannon on November 09, 2018, 06:15:09 am
You think 12 year olds are being taught liberal politics?

My ten year old is. Has been for years by a random assortment of teachers here and there in the school and I live in a highly Conservative area. Luckily I have her being intellectual on these matters and not taking them as truth. Other kids probably don't have parents who are on top of this stuff though.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Dexter on November 09, 2018, 06:20:03 am
My ten year old is. Has been for years by a random assortment of teachers here and there in the school and I live in a highly Conservative area. Luckily I have her being intellectual on these matters and not taking them as truth. Other kids probably don't have parents who are on top of this stuff though.

What is your ten year old being taught?
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Frank Cannon on November 09, 2018, 06:23:21 am
What is your ten year old being taught?

Distribution of wealth. Anti gun policies. Anti Trump memes. Free health care memes.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: dfwgator on November 09, 2018, 06:25:10 am
Distribution of wealth. Anti gun policies. Anti Trump memes. Free health care memes.

Did your kids get force fed this book in kindergarten....

(https://target.scene7.com/is/image/Target/GUEST_0752b80f-1da9-4b2e-ae35-4492d889508b?wid=488&hei=488&fmt=pjpeg)

Never saw such an obvious attempt to indoctrinate kids with Communism.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: roamer_1 on November 09, 2018, 06:29:07 am
You think 12 year olds are being taught liberal politics?

Overwhelmingly yes. Not only politics. They are being taught to be compliant and dependent. They are being taught to emote rather than analyze. They are being taught against what their parents tell them.
They don't know history.
They don't know government.
They don't know basic capitalism.

As an employer, I can testify that they are woefully unfit to be hired, not being able to manage basic math in their heads. No convictions, No principles. Not even a basic sense of right and wrong.


No sale.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Frank Cannon on November 09, 2018, 06:30:05 am
Did your kids get force fed this book in kindergarten....

(https://target.scene7.com/is/image/Target/GUEST_0752b80f-1da9-4b2e-ae35-4492d889508b?wid=488&hei=488&fmt=pjpeg)

Never saw such an obvious attempt to indoctrinate kids with Communism.

I don't think so but when you read the questions for the common core math the books are loaded with Heather has three mommies and a trans uncle type shit.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Dexter on November 09, 2018, 12:04:19 pm
So basically you're all in agreement that to fix public education we need to relinquish power to the states? I would agree to that completely as long as the states agreed to a mandate from the Federal government that explicitly states that all children that are citizens of this country must get a k-12 education. If a state fails to provide what is agreed upon the Fed would step in to ensure that no small children are being deprived of an education. Would you all agree to that if it went to congress?
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: roamer_1 on November 09, 2018, 12:15:55 pm
So basically you're all in agreement that to fix public education we need to relinquish power to the states? I would agree to that completely as long as the states agreed to a mandate from the Federal government that explicitly states that all children that are citizens of this country must get a k-12 education. If a state fails to provide what is agreed upon the Fed would step in to ensure that no small children are being deprived of an education. Would you all agree to that if it went to congress?

@Dexter
There is no authority in the Constitution for the Federal government to mandate a damn thing to the states wrt education. Period.

Why are you so afraid to let folks live their lives the way they are supposed to without the intervention of a nanny state? Federalism dictates fifty experiments, not one. Fifty ways. Are you so sure of one-size-fits-all that you would refuse them that liberty, knowing that they will each respectively see how those experiments work out, and adopt for themselves the best methods?

There are many ways to skin a cat. How are you so sure you know the only one?
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Dexter on November 09, 2018, 12:21:08 pm
There is no authority in the Constitution for the Federal government to mandate a damn thing to the states wrt education.

If the mandate is unacceptable then me and a majority of the country will never budge on this, EVER.


Why are you so afraid to let folks live their lives the way they are supposed to without the intervention of a nanny state?

Children shouldn't miss vital opportunity because of crappy parenting. Without a mandate and a public option a lot of bad parents would ruin the lives of their children. I simply will never get behind that.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Axeslinger on November 09, 2018, 12:35:32 pm
So basically you're all in agreement that to fix public education we need to relinquish power to the states? I would agree to that completely as long as the states agreed to a mandate from the Federal government that explicitly states that all children that are citizens of this country must get a k-12 education. If a state fails to provide what is agreed upon the Fed would step in to ensure that no small children are being deprived of an education. Would you all agree to that if it went to congress?
@Dexter
As a step in the right direction, I would agree to that IF the fedgov ALSO has NO say in defining that K-12 education.   They cannot have any means to squash homeschooling or be able to subvert what State A or State B is teaching.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Dexter on November 09, 2018, 12:36:25 pm
Also most child abuse gets noticed and reported through public school. A lot more children would suffer with horrible people without a mandated public option.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Dexter on November 09, 2018, 12:37:38 pm
@Dexter
As a step in the right direction, I would agree to that IF the fedgov ALSO has NO say in defining that K-12 education.   They cannot have any means to squash homeschooling or be able to subvert what State A or State B is teaching.

Would you agree that there should at least be certain comprehension standards? Like a 12 year old should understand how to read decently and do some math.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: roamer_1 on November 09, 2018, 12:38:06 pm
If the mandate is unacceptable then me and a majority of the country will never budge on this, EVER.


Knock yourselves out. I don't give a shit what you do in your own back yard. It doesn't give you the right to coerce me to do the same. That's the thing with liberals... Never content to mind their own business and let folks be. Always have to stick their noses in where they don't belong.

How the hell do you know what's good for a kid in Montana?

Quote
Children shouldn't miss vital opportunity because of crappy parenting. Without a mandate and a public option a lot of bad parents would ruin the lives of their children. I simply will never get behind that.

That presupposes that YOU are the arbiter of what a good education is. That presupposes that the feral government best knows and can dictate from three thousand miles away. That is as unamerican as it comes.

You have no business here (MT). Leave me and mine alone. WE know best the way we should go. Not you, and certainly not the feds.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: roamer_1 on November 09, 2018, 12:39:46 pm
Would you agree that there should at least be certain comprehension standards? Like a 12 year old should understand how to read decently and do some math.

Don't you think that a free and sovereign state is capable of making that standard?
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Dexter on November 09, 2018, 12:41:43 pm
You have no business here (MT). Leave me and mine alone. WE know best the way we should go. Not you, and certainly not the feds.

You cannot function well in the 21st century without at least a basic education. Some parents would seriously screw up the life potential of their children.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Dexter on November 09, 2018, 12:43:44 pm
Don't you think that a free and sovereign state is capable of making that standard?

How is a sovereign state going to enforce that standard without a public option for children?
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: roamer_1 on November 09, 2018, 12:46:29 pm
You cannot function well in the 21st century without at least a basic education. Some parents would seriously screw up the life potential of their children.

Not any more than they do now. We have fallen from the top of the education heap to what now, 28th?

1. 32 million adults can not read in the United States equal to 14% of the population.
2. 21% of US adults read below the 5th grade level.
3. 19% of high school graduates can not read.
4. 85% of juveniles who interact with the juvenile court system are considered functionally illiterate.
5. 70% of inmates in America’s prisons can not read above the fourth grade level.
https://brandongaille.com/us-literacy-rate-and-illiteracy-statistics/
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Dexter on November 09, 2018, 12:47:26 pm
Not any more than they do now. We have fallen from the top of the education heap to what now, 28th?

Every single country ahead of us on that list has a public option for children. A lot of them have a public option for young adults too.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: roamer_1 on November 09, 2018, 12:48:07 pm
How is a sovereign state going to enforce that standard without a public option for children?

However the hell it wants to (that is what 'sovereign' means).
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: roamer_1 on November 09, 2018, 12:48:46 pm
Every single country ahead of us on that list has a public option for children. A lot of them have a public option for young adults too.

So what?
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Dexter on November 09, 2018, 12:48:51 pm
However the hell it wants to (that is what 'sovereign' means).

You're being illogical. It is IMPOSSIBLE to enforce that standard without a public option.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Dexter on November 09, 2018, 12:49:33 pm
So what?

So maybe that should say something about the importance of the role of public education.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: roamer_1 on November 09, 2018, 12:50:09 pm
You're being illogical. It is IMPOSSIBLE to enforce that standard without a public option.

How do you know?
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: roamer_1 on November 09, 2018, 12:51:15 pm
So maybe that should say something about the importance of the role of public education.

It doesn't say anything. Leadership often goes a different way. You are not leading if you are following others.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Dexter on November 09, 2018, 12:51:46 pm
How do you know?

What are you going to do when people fail to meet the standard? Take the kids away? When you take the kids away where will they get the education they need? Without a public option the state can't educate them either. There is absolutely no way to guarantee an education to children.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Axeslinger on November 09, 2018, 12:52:19 pm
Would you agree that there should at least be certain comprehension standards? Like a 12 year old should understand how to read decently and do some math.

@Dexter

Here’s how you do that and keep the fedgov out:   Each state decides and defines how THEY measure a successful education and then provides statistical evidence that they have met that goal.

AND @roamer_1 concerns can be addressed thus:   those who wish to use homeschooling or ANY OTHER alternative means of educating their kids are free to do so with zero state intervention provided the children pass the same benchmark testing that the rest of the state kids pass.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: roamer_1 on November 09, 2018, 12:54:11 pm
What are you going to do when people fail to meet the standard? Take the kids away? When you take the kids away where will they get the education they need? Without a public option the state can't educate them either. There is absolutely no way to guarantee an education to children.

All of that is none of your business. Worry about your own state and stop coercing me and mine into a failing system.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Dexter on November 09, 2018, 12:56:24 pm
@Dexter
Here’s how you do that and keep the fedgov out:   Each state decides and defines how THEY measure a successful education and then provides statistical evidence that they have met that goal.

I am on board as long as we find a way to guarantee that children are not having their potential thrown away by not educating them on how to read, write and do math at a reasonable pace.

AND @roamer_1 concerns can be addressed thus:   those who wish to use homeschooling or ANY OTHER alternative means of educating their kids are free to do so with zero state intervention provided the children pass the same benchmark testing that the rest of the state kids pass.

I agree to that as well. If people want to weave Christianity and conservatism deeply into the education of their children I have absolutely no problem with that as long as the kids are also learning how to read and do math etc.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Dexter on November 09, 2018, 12:56:58 pm
All of that is none of your business. Worry about your own state and stop coercing me and mine into a failing system.


No deal, sorry. You have no solution because there isn't one.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: roamer_1 on November 09, 2018, 12:58:33 pm

No deal, sorry. You have no solution because there isn't one.

There are many, many solutions. Your overweening nanny state is stopping people from finding them.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Dexter on November 09, 2018, 12:59:23 pm
There are many, many solutions.

Let me know when you think of even one.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: roamer_1 on November 09, 2018, 01:00:56 pm
Let me know when you think of even one.

I can think of thirty - That is not the point. The point is that what happens here is none of your business.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Dexter on November 09, 2018, 01:02:31 pm
I can think of thirty - That is not the point. The point is that what happens here is none of your business.

For the sake of discussion you won't tell me even one of your solutions?
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: DCPatriot on November 09, 2018, 01:06:00 pm
For the sake of discussion you won't tell me even one of your solutions?

The incredible Dr. Pol?    :laugh:
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: roamer_1 on November 09, 2018, 01:08:55 pm
For the sake of discussion you won't tell me even one of your solutions?

NO! It remains that you are IMPOSING at the point of a gun what I do with my kids.

That is none of your business. None at all. And the sooner you disabuse yourself of the notion, the sooner we might come to some sort of agreement.

The Constitution gives the federal government exactly NO authority in this issue. Why do you insist otherwise?
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Dexter on November 09, 2018, 01:10:20 pm
NO!

I don't think you actually have a solution despite what you claim.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: roamer_1 on November 09, 2018, 01:17:09 pm
I don't think you actually have a solution despite what you claim.

Quit trying to shift the goalposts. What I think doesn't matter anyway. That is for the Montana Governor and the Montana legislature to decide.

What is on point is that it should have naught to do with you, and even less to do with the federal government.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Dexter on November 09, 2018, 01:23:15 pm
Quit trying to shift the goalposts. What I think doesn't matter anyway. That is for the Montana Governor and the Montana legislature to decide.

What is on point is that it should have naught to do with you, and even less to do with the federal government.

Public education isn't going anywhere, and states will never be given the autonomy you want as long as you and those that think like you are unwilling to budge on this. You're wasting your thought.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Sanguine on November 09, 2018, 01:33:18 pm
The world is a lot different now. You can't realistically make that comparison.



Is there nobody else in this thread that at least agrees that literacy rates in this country would go down if we removed public education? You wouldn't be able to mandate that children are educated without a public option. A lot of crappy parents would not take an interest in the education of their children. Children should not be punished for that and have their entire lives ruined by the fact that they missed vital opportunities.

The one reason you might not be able to make that comparison is because welfare has removed the need to succeed. 
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: roamer_1 on November 09, 2018, 01:35:33 pm

Here’s how you do that and keep the fedgov out:   Each state decides and defines how THEY measure a successful education

@Axeslinger
That's right.

Quote
and then provides statistical evidence that they have met that goal.


That's not. Providing statistics to the federal government explicitly leaves the feds in charge.
The quality of the student can be readily assessed by the collegiate system and in the general success of the population at large. The state is certainly free to survey and complete its own internal statistics.

Quote
AND @roamer_1 concerns can be addressed thus:   those who wish to use homeschooling or ANY OTHER alternative means of educating their kids are free to do so with zero state intervention provided the children pass the same benchmark testing that the rest of the state kids pass.

That would be up to the state, as it should be. Education is certainly a big draw for families, so I would suppose the competition between the states would ensure excellence and a diverse choice.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Sanguine on November 09, 2018, 01:37:12 pm
If the mandate is unacceptable then me and a majority of the country will never budge on this, EVER.


Children shouldn't miss vital opportunity because of crappy parenting. Without a mandate and a public option a lot of bad parents would ruin the lives of their children. I simply will never get behind that.

I thought you were the one who thinks that people are basically good?  If so, wouldn't one of the most basic drives in life, that to procreate and protect the product of procreation, be in force here?  Seems like by that measure, almost every parent in the world would do their best to make sure Junior can become successful in this world.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: roamer_1 on November 09, 2018, 01:38:26 pm
Public education isn't going anywhere, and states will never be given the autonomy you want as long as you and those that think like you are unwilling to budge on this. You're wasting your thought.

I don't think so. Montana has told the feds to go screw plenty of times already, and can just as easy do it here too.

The point remains that the federal government is operating outside of its Constitutional aegis, and is promoting a failing education system. It will only continue to fail even more.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Bigun on November 09, 2018, 01:51:35 pm
What specifically do you think teachers are doing to indoctrinate children? They learn a lot. Our education system may not be the best in the world but people are definitely learning.

@Dexter

Unfortunately we have a perfect example right here before us.  You have never even heard the name John Dewey until now I'll bet. Have you?
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Dexter on November 09, 2018, 01:52:44 pm
I thought you were the one who thinks that people are basically good?  If so, wouldn't one of the most basic drives in life, that to procreate and protect the product of procreation, be in force here?  Seems like by that measure, almost every parent in the world would do their best to make sure Junior can become successful in this world.

I think humanity is good, but some individuals are certainly not, and some parents are simply inept, not bad people. I want to protect the children of those people. I personally won't budge on this issue.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: roamer_1 on November 09, 2018, 01:54:30 pm
Public education isn't going anywhere, and states will never be given the autonomy you want as long as you and those that think like you are unwilling to budge on this. You're wasting your thought.

And btw, the states are not 'given' autonomy. It is theirs by right.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Bigun on November 09, 2018, 01:58:50 pm
And btw, the states are not 'given' autonomy. It is theirs by right.

He reveals his indoctrination more in every single post.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Sanguine on November 09, 2018, 02:03:49 pm
I think humanity is good, but some individuals are certainly not. I want to protect the children of those people. I personally won't budge on this issue.

Isn't humanity made of people? 

If you want to protect children figure out how to do it within legal confines.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Dexter on November 09, 2018, 02:05:02 pm
And btw, the states are not 'given' autonomy. It is theirs by right.

I simply live in the real world. The federal government controls education and they will never let go as long as you won't budge on this. You don't have practical solutions in my opinion. What you want is not going to happen.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: roamer_1 on November 09, 2018, 02:05:52 pm
He reveals his indoctrination more in every single post.

And ONLY the mighty federal government can properly ordain... *SMH*

It is the federal standard that leaves us with a 20% illiteracy rate, and a self-absorbed, poorly educated snowflake generation.

Just about anything could to better than that.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Dexter on November 09, 2018, 02:05:59 pm
Isn't humanity made of people? 

It's not an all or nothing thing. There is good and bad, but I think overall humanity is good.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: roamer_1 on November 09, 2018, 02:10:39 pm
I simply live in the real world. The federal government controls education and they will never let go as long as you won't budge on this. You don't have practical solutions in my opinion. What you want is not going to happen.

The practical solution is to take the failing education system and give it to the states. It is not the federal government's business, and never has been. The more things privatize and get closer to the people, the better they will work.

As I said your vaunted education system is failing badly, and leaving more than 20% of children behind. High school kids graduating as functional illiterates, for Pete's sake. Open your eyes to what you are defending.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Bigun on November 09, 2018, 02:10:45 pm
And ONLY the mighty federal government can properly ordain... *SMH*

It is the federal standard that leaves us with a 20% illiteracy rate, and a self-absorbed, poorly educated snowflake generation.


@roamer_1

Yep and all according to plan. They don't WANT educated citizens they want preprogramed lemmings!
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: roamer_1 on November 09, 2018, 02:12:50 pm
@roamer_1

Yep and all according to plan. They don't WANT educated citizens they want preprogramed lemmings!

Exactly right.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Bigun on November 09, 2018, 02:13:26 pm
The practical solution is to take the failing education system and give it to the states. It is not the federal government's business, and never has been. The more things privatize and get closer to the people, the better they will work.

As I said your vaunted education system is failing badly, and leaving more than 20% of children behind. High school kids graduating as functional illiterates, for Pete's sake. Open your eyes to what you are defending.

I've said it before and will say it again. The absolute Worst mistake we ever made in this country was to allow the government to "educate" our children!
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Dexter on November 09, 2018, 02:29:33 pm
And btw, the states are not 'given' autonomy. It is theirs by right.

It's simply reality that that right is not theirs right now, legally or not. You're not going to seize it back. You have to come to terms with the federal government.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: roamer_1 on November 09, 2018, 02:40:12 pm
It's simply reality that that right is not theirs right now, legally or not. You're not going to seize it back. You have to come to terms with the federal government.

Naw. This idiocy will stop. And we'll survive it. Because we still have enough self reliance out here to make it happen.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Dexter on November 09, 2018, 02:46:19 pm
Naw. This idiocy will stop. And we'll survive it. Because we still have enough self reliance out here to make it happen.

Our government imposes its will with force and if needed, violence. I'm not saying it's right, but it is what it is.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: roamer_1 on November 09, 2018, 03:07:01 pm
Our government imposes its will with force and if needed, violence. I'm not saying it's right, but it is what it is.

The last place they will ever take is these blue Rockies. Come give it a whirl. We're ready.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Dexter on November 09, 2018, 03:08:05 pm
The last place they will ever take is these blue Rockies. Come give it a whirl. We're ready.

You won't get enough people to follow you. Most people don't want to die.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Weird Tolkienish Figure on November 09, 2018, 03:23:59 pm
The last place they will ever take is these blue Rockies. Come give it a whirl. We're ready.

 888mouth
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: roamer_1 on November 09, 2018, 04:10:38 pm
You won't get enough people to follow you. Most people don't want to die.

You might be surprised. We love our liberty out here in the west, as do our sister states. You might just bite off more than you can chew.

There is no love for the federal government out here.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: mirraflake on November 09, 2018, 04:15:48 pm
No... In fact, home-schooled kids invariably get better grades than public school kids do.

Yes, but home school kids tend to be cherry picked from ideal parents.

  I'm all for homeschooling but all the homeschooling parents I know have college degrees and have higher IQ's.  Home school parents (notice I said parents)  tend to be very ambitious and have strict academic and career goals for their kids. My niece is going to homeschool. She has advanced degrees and her hubby, equally intelligent,  pulls in a very nice 3 figure income so she can quit her job. They are very conservative ad most of their friends also high earners and achievers are all homeschooling.

Have you seen what the average family and kid  what America is breeding today? Fat, dumb, drugged out  and lazy. I doubt 5% could homeschool.

The public schools have to take the low IQ kids from low IQ univolved  parents and try to do something with them.

@roamer_1
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: dfwgator on November 09, 2018, 04:16:36 pm
Yes, but home school kids tend to be cherry picked from ideal parents.

  I'm all for homeschooling but all the homeschooling parents I know have college degrees and have higher IQ's.  Home school parents (notice I said parents)  tend to be very ambitious and have strict academic and career goals for their kids. My niece is going to homeschool. She has advanced degrees and her hubby, equally intelligent,  pulled in a very nice 3 figure income so she can quit her job.

Have you seen what the average family and kid  what America is breeding today? Fat, dumb, drugged out  and lazy. I doubt 90% could homeschool.

The public schools have to take the low IQ kids from low IQ univolved  parents and try to do something with them.

@roamer_1

It's all tied to the Government's War on the Nuclear Family.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Dexter on November 09, 2018, 04:21:42 pm
The public schools have to take the low IQ kids

A lot of those children are quite intelligent and have a lot of potential. Unfortunately some very smart children have very uninvolved parents.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: roamer_1 on November 09, 2018, 04:22:07 pm
Yes, but home school kids tend to be cherry picked from ideal parents.

  I'm all for homeschooling but all the homeschooling parents I know have college degrees and have higher IQ's.  Home school parents (notice I said parents)  tend to be very ambitious and have strict academic and career goals for their kids. My niece is going to homeschool. She has advanced degrees and her hubby, equally intelligent,  pulled in a very nice 3 figure income so she can quit her job.

Have you seen what the average family and kid  what America is breeding today? Fat, dumb, drugged out  and lazy. I doubt 90% could homeschool.

The public schools have to take the low IQ kids from low IQ univolved  parents and try to do something with them.

@roamer_1


@mirraflake
I can see your point, but I disagree. ALL the hillbillies out here home school. They live too far out to go in to school... And all those kids study under solar or lantern light... Yes there are still plenty of houses out here that burn lanterns and heat with wood. And all those hillbilly kids get super good grades too.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: roamer_1 on November 09, 2018, 04:25:34 pm
It's all tied to the Government's War on the Nuclear Family.

That's right - And the only way to break the chain is to take your kids out of public school.
And I am damn proud of them that do.
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: Axeslinger on November 09, 2018, 05:15:14 pm
@Axeslinger

That's not. Providing statistics to the federal government explicitly leaves the feds in charge.
The quality of the student can be readily assessed by the collegiate system and in the general success of the population at large. The state is certainly free to survey and complete its own internal statistics.
@roamer_1
I agree with you, my submittal was in the spirit of @Dexter question of trying to find middle ground to return education to the states.  My proposal would move the needle a helluva lot closer to the federalism side of the equation, allowing fedgov input ONLY when a state demonstrably fails to live up to their OWN self mandated standards.

Also your notion of college system assessment inherently accepts the potential for an entire generation within that state to be under educated.  I think there do need to be statewide benchmarks along the way...again all mandated within the STATES educational system
Title: Re: How much of your money should the government take?
Post by: roamer_1 on November 09, 2018, 05:33:09 pm
@roamer_1
I agree with you, my submittal was in the spirit of @Dexter question of trying to find middle ground to return education to the states.  My proposal would move the needle a helluva lot closer to the federalism side of the equation, allowing fedgov input ONLY when a state demonstrably fails to live up to their OWN self mandated standards.

@Axeslinger
Yes, I see.

Quote
Also your notion of college system assessment inherently accepts the potential for an entire generation within that state to be under educated.  I think there do need to be statewide benchmarks along the way...again all mandated within the STATES educational system

I mean that the inherent process for attaining to the collegiate system includes aptitude testing... And I did mention internal state surveys...