The truth is hitting those that once supported it right in the face, or should I say their wallett.
The truth is hitting those that once supported it right in the face, or should I say their wallett.
The truth is hitting those that once supported it right in the face, or should I say their wallett.
But then again the low-information public is still confused. You must have saw the man on the street interview from a week or so ago, with the question which do you prefer the Affordable Care Act or Obamacare? Not one person realized it was the same thing. And all because of the name thought out of the two the AFA was more “affordable”.
You know if I was the Queen of England, I might think it was a good time to take back the Colonies.
<ObamaSupporterOpinion>
They are willing to settle for lose-lose than to admit their guy's policies are terrible for the people of this country, including themselves. A loss for us is more important to them than anything else, even if it means that they have to lose, too.
There is much truth in what you say. Politics is like that. It's built into the fabric of the political system. I think that's why the number of people who self identify as independent voters is growing. People are sick of the two parties.
the GOP is rotting from the inside out.
I agree. The left wing too. The problem we agree on is that the government is doing a piss poor job at managing things.
Good. We saw it coming, we warned them, we still warn them.
They roll their eyes and go back to facebooking, ignoring us.
I hope it hurts them, badly, brings them to tears, causes them rage.
This isn't about healthcare at all. It's about CONTROL and IF we allow it to come to full fruition tears and rage will be completely meaningless!
Of course it is, which is why they tied it to the IRS.
Maybe you should check out the Tea Party - what the media never tells you is they are made up of Democrats, Republicans and Independents - what we all agree on in the TP is TAXED ENOUGH already and following the Constitutional form of government as laid out by our founders.
Of course it is, which is why they tied it to the IRS.
I agree with some of their rhetoric, but overall I wouldn't really fit in. :P
I remember when the 'classical' left stood for unshackled liberty. Now, they are nothing but government sycophants willing to trade in their liberty for a government check.
Good point. We should call them what they really are: socialists.
I remember when the 'classical' left stood for unshackled liberty. Now, they are nothing but government sycophants willing to trade in their liberty for a government check.
I can't believe that anyone who calls themself a "liberal" is on board with the government spying on their every activity.
Right to the point! One could almost respect the common thief. At least he knows he's a thief. But these Democrats revel in legalized thievery and don't even bat an eye.
I haven't seen any liberals claim to be okay with the NSA spying. I was under the impression that this was an outrage for pretty much everybody. The places I get my news sources from is full of liberals that are absolutely beside themselves over this.
You got that right AC. Whatever happened to the freedom to do whatever we want? I can't believe that anyone who calls themself a "liberal" is on board with the government spying on their every activity.
I think a lot of them tell themselves they are being compassionate by being liberal, that THEY and they alone are truly compassionate because they want to take my money from me and give it to someone else. But, it's so cruel to sentence someone to a lifetime of government dependency - it's really just one rung above outright slavery.
So, if you and other liberals are outraged by the NSA stuff, and I assume there are other things you are pissed about that you might not want to admit out loud - with the way Obama is doing things - do you see any movement afoot for fed-up liberals to start their own Tea Bagger party?
That's what Occupy Wall Street was for liberals, but that was thoroughly shut down by the government. A lot of liberals I talk to want to completely defund the NSA and start throwing these guys in prison.
I have a good friend who is - alas - a pretty flaming liberal. We try not to talk politics, but sometimes the subject comes up. When we talk about things like the spying, the drones, the thought police/hate crimes, the War on Drugs, Monsanto's genetically modified stuff...etc - we are in pretty good agreement with each other that we hate it. But I've yet to get him to a place where he could consider joining a libertarian movement. He thinks Republicans should be jailed, but can't bring himself to say the same for the Democrats. I pretty much put most of them in the same group.
The Democrats are taking corporate bribes just like Republicans are. I don't think getting millions of dollars of funding from corporations and special interests should be a mandatory part of having a chance at winning the presidential election. I think the NSA spying is completely outrageous, and I consider Edward Snowden a hero for what he did. I think the federal government is long overdue for a reality check, and needs to be reminded who is really in charge.
Yep. It's long overdue for a thorough housecleaning. Career politicians are repulsive - like cockroaches, flies and fleas. I think we are on the cusp of amazing and frightening change - it is crackling in the air like electricity. If all the ordinary people would rise up to reclaim their lost freedoms and re-assert themselves as the boss of THEM - NOT the other way around - we could be on the cusp of a historic revolution.
I've been pretty depressed about it, but lately my spidey sense is getting little tingles, I hope I'm not disappointed again.
I think we owe Edward Snowden a huge debt.
That crackling might be the sound of the military grade weapons the police will start using to combat protesters. I think we're definitely standing at the precipice of monumental change, but what that change is is still up in the air. Are we going to fly or fall down and crash into the rocks below?
Old hang gliders saying: "You ain't going to fly without being willing to jump."
That's what Occupy Wall Street was for liberals, but that was thoroughly shut down by the government. A lot of liberals I talk to want to completely defund the NSA and start throwing these guys in prison.
Excellent, Rap. Occupy had no central, unified focus. It was the chaotic ramblings of hundreds of discordant voices. The Tea Party is as clear as a bell, a Liberty Bell. A call for return to constitutional government. Not this, this THING in DC that steals our money and with that, our liberty. And then has the gall to force on our lives and businesses thousands of regulations or be fined or jailed or both.
I haven't seen any liberals claim to be okay with the NSA spying. I was under the impression that this was an outrage for pretty much everybody. The places I get my news from are full of liberals that are absolutely beside themselves over this.
If you think the Occupy movement was anything to applaud then you are further gone than I thought. You would never see women being raped at a Tea Party gathering or people chanting in unison what some person standing at the front of the crowd told them to chant... remember many of us lived through the 60's and the day of the REAL hippies, the Occupy kids were mostly just spoiled rotten little rich kids with too much time on their hands, the Tea Party supporters actually want to do something positive in America.
I have. They are even center-left types, not full on liberals. Several of my friends fully supported this when the scandal first broke.
I went to and hung out for a whole day at the 'occupy' camp in my city. You are correct to say that it was a discordant cacophony of a hundred different issues. Some people there were purely mercantile selling some product "for the people". The most notable was several credit unions were there 'protesting' and handing out applications to get rid of the 'commercial banks'. lol yeah right. And there were people selling flags, and masks, and signs, etc. Pretty cool operation for supposed 'anti-profit communists'. lol
Some people were there just to hang out and exploit the situation. Lots of homeless and just general weirdos were involved. Many businesses were ostensibly 'supporting' the movement, so there was a steady supply of donuts, and pizzas, and fresh sandwiches. I had some of this and it was delicious. No one I saw there was going hungry.
Also there were girls. Some runaways, some drug addicted. But they were, from what I could see, pretty easy picking. And, at times it was just plain fun. Camping out, yelling in the streets, and waving flags, and just generally acting up, it was kind of a block party.
But, back to the point, there was no central 'theme' or 'goal', it was just a bunch of people out 'protesting' without having a clear idea of what they were protesting or what they expected to accomplish.
most of the sane people had gone home after cops had started beating the crap out of peaceful protesters.Here we go. :whistle:
If you think the Occupy movement was anything to applaud then you are further gone than I thought. You would never see women being raped at a Tea Party gathering or people chanting in unison what some person standing at the front of the crowd told them to chant... remember many of us lived through the 60's and the day of the REAL hippies, the Occupy kids were mostly just spoiled rotten little rich kids with too much time on their hands, the Tea Party supporters actually want to do something positive in America.
Brava!
Tea Party gatherings are filled with law-abiding citizens united in purpose (my avatar was from 9/12 - AWESOME experience). There were senior citizens in wheelchairs, families with small children, college professors and professionals........every day citizens standing up against an out of control government.
OWS was a disparate gang of thugs, violent, destructive, filthy, and purposeless.
The Tea Party has been castigated by the MSM, and OWS revered.
The idea that the MSM misrepresented the OWS movement in a negative way is an absolute pile of trash.
We have a liar in our midst, folks.
They knew exactly what they wanted. Their message was that the banks and corporations are corrupting our politicians and ruining our lives. The local, smaller occupy movements I can't really speak for. They were definitely very disorganized and severely lacked the numbers the main movement had. The movement also started to look bad towards the very end, because most of the sane people had gone home after cops had started beating the crap out of peaceful protesters.
What you said is perfect. It is a perfect example of the cliche' idea people have of what it was all about, spoken by people who were not actually involved. I went to one of their 'town meetings'. Everything from PETA, to Greenpeace, to Homosexual activists, to Environmentalists, to Feminists, to Abortion rights and Planned Parenthood, and on and on and on, were there. It was chaos. It devolved into a disorganized yelling match with each group trying to push their agenda ahead of all the others. It was a mess and most people stormed out disgusted.
I understand this romatic vision you have about what OWS was, but it is a fantasy. The reality of the situation was much different than your idealized view of the 'movement', if you can call it that.
You know the way you view OWS is almost exactly how the left wing views the Tea Party, right? Do you think it might be possible that MSM paints a bad image of ANY movement that takes a negative tone towards our government?
What you said is perfect. It is a perfect example of the cliche' idea people have of what it was all about, spoken by people who were not actually involved. I went to one of their 'town meetings'. Everything from PETA, to Greenpeace, to Homosexual activists, to Environmentalists, to Feminists, to Abortion rights and Planned Parenthood, and on and on and on, were there. It was chaos. It devolved into a disorganized yelling match with each group trying to push their agenda ahead of all the others. It was a mess and most people stormed out disgusted.
I understand this romatic vision you have about what OWS was, but it is a fantasy. The reality of the situation was much different than your idealized view of the 'movement', if you can call it that.
You know the way you view OWS is almost exactly how the left wing views the Tea Party, right? Do you think it might be possible that MSM paints a bad image of ANY movement that takes a negative tone towards our government?
OWS was huge, and involved many, many people. Also, for the record, I was involved. Your personal experience of going to one town meeting at one point in time and having a bad experience does not qualify you to speak for what the entire movement was about, in my opinion.
The Tea Party never planned to blow up a bridge.
So............seeing your support of OWS here, I've join the ranks of people here who aren't going to waste any more time on a conservative website debating someone who is deliberately ignorant and supporting the insupportable.
I don't know anything about that. Among such a large mass of people there are bound to be extremist lunatics that want to take it too far. If you're honest with yourself you will admit these people exist in the tea party too. Violent resolution was not the goal of the vast majority of OWS.
I don't know anything about that. Among such a large mass of people there are bound to be extremist lunatics that want to take it too far. If you're honest with yourself you will admit these people exist in the tea party too. Violent resolution was not the goal of the vast majority of OWS.
How many Tea Party types were arrested for such plans?
I live near Cleveland, I can tell you how many OWS types were arrested here.
You're projecting, speculating to fit your view rather than dealing with facts. What I WANT to do, and what I actually do are two different things. Self control and personal responsibility come into play. Those are cornerstones of conservative ideals. We may fall short at times, but it is something we seem to value more than the left.
Who would you rather have piloting your aircraft, designing the high rise you need to get to the top floor of, performing that bit of surgery you need, or being your anesthesiologist...or your dentist for that matter...a member of the Tea Party or an OWS camper?
Anything for a bong party with anarchists...except maybe your life.
The Tea Party never planned to blow up a bridge.
I'm sorry you feel that way, but I respect your position. Maybe we'll eventually find something we both agree on. :)
I'm sorry you feel that way, but I respect your position. Maybe we'll eventually find something we both agree on. :)
Exactly. Beyond that, the Tea Party movement is non-violent, grass-roots, and self-funded. OWS was radical, artificial, and well-funded by a Progressive infrastructure that has no analogous structure on the Right. The former is thriving; the latter has evaporated.
The single thing they have in common is a professed distrust for the concentration of power and authority. But whereas the Tea Party actually means it, OWS was disingenuous in its aims, specifically by attacking Big Business and free trade, while supporting a massive, authoritarian central government that provides special favors and imposes regulations and tax policies that make truly fair and free trade impossible.
The Tea Party wants freedom. OWS just wanted free stuff.
I do not wish to find common ground with you and people like you. You will be defeated regardless of the veneer of politeness you present to this forum. I asked for facts, and you spew tiresome platitudes. Total waste of time and bandwidth.
Try Ace of Spades HQ--another site you can attempt to troll. They'll love you.
It wasn't a bunch of stoned kids and drunk homeless people like the media likes to insinuate.
Yes. That is exactly what it was.
The media isn't "insinuating"; they are "reporting". I do not believe that you were involved in terms of being with the group. I think that when you say you were 'involved' in OWS, it must be that you are referring to a donation or moral support or something. If you had met some of those guys, you would have a different opinion.
I consider you to be an intelligent person. But your description of OWS is just not what it was. It was anarchy and chaos. Half those kids were rebelling more against their parents than any government or corporation.
I keep trying to get out of this discussion, but this crazy description of something I know about keeps drawing me back in. OK. this is my last post on the subject. Done. Out.
Yes. That is exactly what it was.
The media isn't "insinuating"; they are "reporting". I do not believe that you were involved in terms of being with the group. I think that when you say you were 'involved' in OWS, it must be that you are referring to a donation or moral support or something. If you had met some of those guys, you would have a different opinion.
I consider you to be an intelligent person. But your description of OWS is just not what it was. It was anarchy and chaos. Half those kids were rebelling more against their parents than any government or corporation.
I keep trying to get out of this discussion, but this crazy description of something I know about keeps drawing me back in. OK. this is my last post on the subject. Done. Out.
It wasn't a bunch of stoned kids and drunk homeless people like the media likes to insinuate.
And yet you believe the media mis-characterization...no demonization...of the Tea Party.
Please do read the thread Myst linked. You might be surprised.
If anyone has that pic of the aftermath of a tea party demo vs an occupy demo to post, that might also be instructive.
I've seen OWS from the right wing perspective. I've said my peace about it, and all that is really left is to just disagree. Beyond that point the conversation just devolves into name calling and posturing, which I'm uninterested in.
That sounds a lot like:
** I can't produce anything about the Tea Party that is nearly as damning as what has been documented about OWS, so I'm shutting down now. **
If you were honest, you'd admit the real differences between OWS and Tea Party. Much of it has to do with the basic composition. The Tea Party tends to be older citizens who adhere to what was once considered traditional American values. OWS, by the nature of their demonstration method, (camping for weeks), tended to be younger citizens, who were the modern equivalent of anti establishment types. With younger people, you tend to get people there for the event as much as for the purpose. That is, people looking for a party.
That sounds a lot like:
** I can't produce anything about the Tea Party that is nearly as damning as what has been documented about OWS, so I'm shutting down now. **
If you were honest, you'd admit the real differences between OWS and Tea Party. Much of it has to do with the basic composition. The Tea Party tends to be older citizens who adhere to what was once considered traditional American values. OWS, by the nature of their demonstration method, (camping for weeks), tended to be younger citizens, who were the modern equivalent of anti establishment types. With younger people, you tend to get people there for the event as much as for the purpose. That is, people looking for a party.
Thank you music lady! I honestly couldn't remember who had the good personal photos, but I knew someone had them here!
Sorry? :seeya:
I've cut a lot of conversations short and have neglected to take them to their conclusions because I recognize where I am and the belief set of the posters here. I'm not really interested in being chased out with pitch forks. The OWS is absolutely different than the Tea Party, but we fundamentally disagree on what makes them different.
I have lots more too.
I wish I had one of the grounds when we left.
They were spotless. I was there. Not a scrap of paper on the ground, but the trash containers sure were full!
If someone can post the post-Inaugural garbage dump the leftists left in DC, the contrast will be obvious.
(I don't have that one, but I'm sure someone does).
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-roShpLNpTNY/T2qj3pSp3SI/AAAAAAAAB6Y/REeSXcZ5E50/s640/occupydc.jpg)(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ox4UqmcQECI/T2qj_OcMe2I/AAAAAAAAB6g/EcgxscWcCEs/s640/occupyla.jpg)(http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4727780920722556&w=257&h=100&c=7&rs=1&pid=1.7)
Tea Party on the Mall - Before and After(http://scottthong.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/obamainaugvsteaparty.jpg)(http://sadhillnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/obama-ows-the-reason-i-ran-for-office-occupy-wall-street-tea-party-sad-hill-news.jpg)
If LS was what he says he is, (an open minded liberal trying to understand the other side's point of view), he would acknowledge the documentation. If the roles were reversed, and there was documentation of a large contingent of ne'er do wells in a movement I supported, I would acknowledge it, and rather than grasp for some kind of moral equivalence, I'd examine who and what I support.
Or, if LS is a true liberal, he will simply shut down in the face of facts that contradict his views.
It was like a FOURTH of JULY celebration in 1965 - filled with patriots, wonderful people, great conversations, and UNITED PURPOSE.
If LS was what he says he is, (an open minded liberal trying to understand the other side's point of view), he would acknowledge the documentation. If the roles were reversed, and there was documentation of a large contingent of ne'er do wells in a movement I supported, I would acknowledge it, and rather than grasp for some kind of moral equivalence, I'd examine who and what I support.
Or, if LS is a true liberal, he will simply shut down in the face of facts that contradict his views.
That's exactly what he's doing. Shutting down in the face of facts. Visible, clear proof of his error.
And you're right. If you or I saw actual proof of another perspective, we'd examine it. If there was documentation, we would accept it.
But a leftist does not. He cannot, because he cannot accept the reality that he has been fed lies, and is now regurgitating them.
Whether a stupid kid or a nasty troll, a leftist cannot ever admit the truth.
He will not admit that he is wrong.
They knew exactly what they wanted. Their message was that the banks and corporations are corrupting our politicians and ruining our lives. The local, smaller occupy movements I can't really speak for. They were definitely very disorganized and severely lacked the numbers the main movement had. The movement also started to look bad towards the very end, because most of the sane people had gone home after cops had started beating the crap out of peaceful protesters.
It's easy to be against something. OWS was certainly famous for that; against corporations, banks, oil companies, biotech foods, McDonalds. Anything "big." The tea party on the other hand is for something—specifically, for the return to constitutional government. "Big" difference.
There is a vote going on right now in the general discussion forum deciding on whether or not I should be banned from this website. If you disapprove of my presence here, I encourage you to go vote to have me banned. I'm sorry that you feel like I'm trolling. I came here to exchange ideas with a crowd of people that disagrees with a lot of what I have to say. It was both a personal challenge and an attempt to become more well rounded by better understanding the conservative perspective. Nothing I've said has been insulting or rude towards anybody on this forum.
THANK YOU, LANDOLINCOLN!! :patriot:
http://www.npr.org/2011/10/22/141619672/finding-common-ground-between-two-movements
We should be focusing on the common ground, in my opinion.
I agree common ground may be the only place from which victory can be gained over entrenched and corrupt federal power.
For the record, I'm for free speech. As far as I'm concerned your presence here is perfectly welcome. If one is confident in their own position simply having another disagree should be no problem.
It's easy to be against something. OWS was certainly famous for that; against corporations, banks, oil companies, biotech foods, McDonalds. Anything "big." The tea party on the other hand is for something—specifically, for the return to constitutional government. "Big" difference.
I would dare L_S to hold such signs at an OWS rally but I don't want that on my conscience.
Want to take that bet?
You ask a lot of questions and much has been written in response. But what about you? What are your guiding principles? What age group are you in? I saw a military background comment so kudos for that. Why are you here on this site? Are your questions genuine or is it sporting fun? Are you creating something from all of this?
Answer. Or don't. Fine either way.
useful idiots who might otherwise question why they got screwed by Obama and his Wall Street buddies
Want to take that bet?
You believe that Wall Street is partly responsible?
I think human beings, creatures capable of empathy, compassion, love, and many other emotions have a moral obligation to help those in need, those less fortunate than they are. I feel that no human life is inherently better or more important than another, and that all most people really want is to live a nice, happy life where they can raise their children in peace. I support anything that makes it easier for every day people to live comfortably and in peace. I'm on this site to study and better understand the mindset of a conglomerate of people that have a lot of opinions that are drastically different than my own. It is interesting to be inside of and see the conservative perspective. My questions are genuine; I'm interested in seeing the logic that pulls together the thought process that creates your ideology.
Liberal_Spy if you really want to get into our heads to see what makes us conservatives tick, then may I suggest you spend a week or so "spying" on the Democraticunderground forum so you can get an honest comparison of free thought & discussion from the Left and from the Right. I think you will find we conservatives are a lot more refined, polite, thoughtful, intelligent, and hopeful for the preservation of this Nation’s ideals than you give us credit for.
Liberal_Spy if you really want to get into our heads to see what makes us conservatives tick, then may I suggest you spend a week or so "spying" on the Democraticunderground forum so you can get an honest comparison of free thought & discussion from the Left and from the Right. I think you will find we conservatives are a lot more refined, polite, thoughtful, intelligent, and hopeful for the preservation of this Nation’s ideals than you give us credit for.
OWS was huge, and involved many, many people. Also, for the record, I was involved. Your personal experience of going to one town meeting at one point in time and having a bad experience does not qualify you to speak for what the entire movement was about, in my opinion.
If you were involved then shame on you. They delighted in destruction of personal property just about every single place they showed up. You may be able to blow smoke up your brain dead friends skirts, but we followed it closely here across the nation, one member even entered the belly of the beast in NYC... and we had live real time video from Portland, OR... to Oakland to Atlanta, GA. You're not talking to a bunch of ignorant hicks on this site.
For the record. There was a LOT of women raped and a lot if drugs involved, and a lot of violence. You NEVER saw any if that at any Tea Party gathering.... you need to peddle that crapola among your OWS friends, not here.
I think human beings, creatures capable of empathy, compassion, love, and many other emotions have a moral obligation to help those in need, those less fortunate than they are. I feel that no human life is inherently better or more important than another, and that all most people really want is to live a nice, happy life where they can raise their children in peace. I support anything that makes it easier for every day people to live comfortably and in peace. I'm on this site to study and better understand the mindset of a conglomerate of people that have a lot of opinions that are drastically different than my own. It is interesting to be inside of and see the conservative perspective. My questions are genuine; I'm interested in seeing the logic that pulls together the thought process that creates your ideology.
I quickly realized how touchy this topic was and dropped it because of where I am. I'm not here to piss anybody off or cause trouble. I think we can disagree with each other and still be civil.
OK...........I changed my mind. I'm going to addres this.
If you truly believed and understood the first part of this, you'd be a conservative.
Liberal policies hurt people. They hurt the poor most of all. They create a dependency that is akin to slavery (this has been said before on this thread). Since the Great Society began, poor families have been destroyed, the black family has been virtually eliminated, people have been harmed, cities have fallen into ruin, while people on your side of the debate keep arguing that it is the conservatives who don't care about the poor.
Conservatism helps people achieve. It rewards achievement. It provides tools for achievement.
We are not content to feed the poor. We want to help the poor feed themselves.
As for me, as an individual, and a Christian, I take very seriously the Biblical command to take care of the poor, the widow and orphans.
But I also note that there is nothing in that about governments doing it. Only individuals, and churches. (I suppose that's because of how corrupt governments tend to become......especially dictatorial ones like Obama's).
What happens when the pie in the sky liberal says, "Let Government do everything," is that the government gets rich and the poor stay poor. (btw, liberals do very little individually to help people in need, while conservatives do a great deal. If you think government is going to take care of everyone and everything, you see no need to help others personally. WE do).
There are generations of welfare families who are condemned to stay there because of (possibly) well intentioned people, and greedy, corrupt politicians.
Conservatives want the safety net for those who really can't help themselves. But there are people who could work, who are healthy and able, who are sitting at home watching TV (or like the guy in CA, surfing). The Welfare Reform that took place in the 90's (thanks to a Republican House), has been removed by Obama, and the poor are getting poorer, while his Wall Street and union buddies are getting richer.
If that's what you really want, stay liberal.
If you really want people to rise out of poverty, support conservatism.
Conservatives want the safety net for those who really can't help themselves. But there are people who could work, who are healthy and able, who are sitting at home watching TV (or like the guy in CA, surfing). The Welfare Reform that took place in the 90's (thanks to a Republican House), has been removed by Obama, and the poor are getting poorer, while his Wall Street and union buddies are getting richer.
I admire and respect your conviction. I understand it must be frustrating for somebody you feel is ignorant and part of the problem to come into your territory and start talking about things you don't want to hear. We simply have a fundamental disagreement on what some of the problems are and how you fix them.
I admire and respect your conviction. I understand it must be frustrating for somebody you feel is ignorant and part of the problem to come into your territory and start talking about things you don't want to hear. We simply have a fundamental disagreement on what some of the problems are and how you fix them.
Also, ML, I'd like to point out that OPapaDoc's buddies like Blue Cross and Citibank aren't getting richer at the expense of rich people, but mostly at the expense of the poor schmucks who voted for the guy.
Look at black unemployment under OPapaDoc. Way up. But 90 percent of blacks voted for him. Look at Millennials. Seventy percent vote for him, and they are getting screwed BIG TIME by Obamacare. Also, labor unions. And as the cost of living rises, average income keeps going down.
Being a college prof, I work with Millennials on a daily basis. I think there is a rude awakening occurring among Gen Y. They are discovering that liberalism is what we said it was, based on an axiom that is as old as civilization: Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
I've spent a lot of time studying both, actually. This isn't the first conservative forum I have posted on. The thing that has been a shock to me is how much the left and right would actually agree on if they could put aside their differences and talk about the big problems.
You are a member who posts at the pleasure of fellow members. You will not address specific questions.
Earlier, I recommended "The Road to Serfdom": No response
Earlier, I asked about your specific military branch/outfit: No response
Asking again, respond please.
I admire and respect your conviction. I understand it must be frustrating for somebody you feel is ignorant and part of the problem to come into your territory and start talking about things you don't want to hear. We simply have a fundamental disagreement on what some of the problems are and how you fix them.
I looked up and browsed the wiki for the book you recommended.
I served in the Army. My rank when I got out was e4. My MOS was 25N and I was in the signal battalion. I went to basic training at Fort Jackson, SC, and did my MOS training at Fort Gordon, Georgia.
When you state you "got out" -- what does that mean? Usually service members state they were "discharged" with some qualifier, such as honorable. What years did you serve?
Just out of curiosity, do you support the message of these protesters?
http://imgur.com/dc4E4PK
http://imgur.com/SGm4a87
http://imgur.com/FvcGQ5f
http://imgur.com/uEJqru0
http://imgur.com/mJ9GCRo
First one - Sure, it's cute. An African Lion vs. a Lyin' African. Obama is African by descent, isn't he?
Second - A little over the top.
Third - Yep. Dixie Chickin' is a reference to Natalie Mains trashing Bush while overseas. And Obama's father is Kenyan, is he not? Michelle even called Kenya Obama's home.
Fourth - No. Absolutely not.
Fifth - No. I hate racists who can't spell.
Now, here's the meat of the issue. You found some Tea Party types who were racist. Ok. I would even accept that some of the motivating force in Obama opposition is racism. But what did these people do? They made signs that they took home, and disposed of properly. What did OWS do? Camp out, trash places, poop in public, break laws, do drugs, and generally try to foul up wherever they decided to camp. Oh, and they tried to blow up a bridge.
The equivalence is not there.
First one - Sure, it's cute. An African Lion vs. a Lyin' African. Obama is African by descent, isn't he?
Second - A little over the top.
Third - Yep. Dixie Chickin' is a reference to Natalie Mains trashing Bush while overseas. And Obama's father is Kenyan, is he not? Michelle even called Kenya Obama's home.
Fourth - No. Absolutely not.
Fifth - No. I hate racists who can't spell.
Now, here's the meat of the issue. You found some Tea Party types who were racist. Ok. I would even accept that some of the motivating force in Obama opposition is racism. But what did these people do? They made signs that they took home, and disposed of properly. What did OWS do? Camp out, trash places, poop in public, break laws, do drugs, and generally try to foul up wherever they decided to camp. Oh, and they tried to blow up a bridge.
The equivalence is not there.
Mostly what I was getting at is everybody has idiots in their party that get focused on too much. How many liberals have told you that the Tea Party is just a bunch of racists? Isn't that stupid? These people don't represent all of you, but they are out there, and they make you look bad. We have those too, but they don't represent all of us. Some of the people in those giant protests were undoubtedly complete idiots, and did stupid shit that made everybody else look bad, but that doesn't mean they are all like that.
There is a vote going on right now in the general discussion forum deciding on whether or not I should be banned from this website. If you disapprove of my presence here, I encourage you to go vote to have me banned. I'm sorry that you feel like I'm trolling. I came here to exchange ideas with a crowd of people that disagrees with a lot of what I have to say. It was both a personal challenge and an attempt to become more well rounded by better understanding the conservative perspective. Nothing I've said has been insulting or rude towards anybody on this forum.'
I got out after 3 years with an honorable medical discharge. I could dig up my discharge folder and take a screenshot if you really don't believe me or something.
'
I voted to let you stay but now wish I had waited a day or two before casting my vote. I very much dislike "preaching to choir" - a lot of which goes on here - and would love to have a conversation with someone honestly seeking answers but sadly I don't any longer think you fit that bill.
Mostly what I was getting at is everybody has idiots in their party that get focused on too much. How many liberals have told you that the Tea Party is just a bunch of racists? Isn't that stupid? These people don't represent all of you, but they are out there, and they make you look bad. We have those too, but they don't represent all of us. Some of the people in those giant protests were undoubtedly complete idiots, and did stupid shit that made everybody else look bad, but that doesn't mean they are all like that.
May I recommend taking the time to read a very short treatise entitled:
"The Road to Serfdom" by Friedrich A. Hayek. (Easily available)
In your search for truth, this little book can be of immense value and highly
recommended as a great introduction to the subject you are so passionately pursuing.
It would be very helpful in your quest.
I think human beings, creatures capable of empathy, compassion, love, and many other emotions have a moral obligation to help those in need, those less fortunate than they are. I feel that no human life is inherently better or more important than another, and that all most people really want is to live a nice, happy life where they can raise their children in peace. I support anything that makes it easier for every day people to live comfortably and in peace. I'm on this site to study and better understand the mindset of a conglomerate of people that have a lot of opinions that are drastically different than my own. It is interesting to be inside of and see the conservative perspective. My questions are genuine; I'm interested in seeing the logic that pulls together the thought process that creates your ideology.
I didn't even hear any profanity, and I mingled among hundreds and hundreds of people.
So you found a few signs from a handful of outliers.
OWS is practically silent now that Romney has been defeated. It was a manufactured "astroturf" movement funded by George Soros and other globalists who wanted to accomplish two things: (1) make use of the young, useful idiots who might otherwise question why they got screwed by Obama and his Wall Street buddies; and (2) make Romney unpalatable to the young.
Both objectives having been accomplished, the "movement" has all but disappeared. One thing about millennials: having been raised on the Internet, they have become used to trusting their short attention spans to achieve instant gratification. They are incapable of understanding anything, including politics, in depth.
I've spent a lot of time studying both, actually. This isn't the first conservative forum I have posted on. The thing that has been a shock to me is how much the left and right would actually agree on if they could put aside their differences and talk about the big problems.
Same here. I’ve been to a number of conservative rallies, some affiliated with the Tea Party, others not. And the only provocative signs were from the Lyndon LaRouche movement who infiltrated the ranks. They were the ones with the Obama with Hitler mustache signs the Tea Party was falsely blamed for. This same “leftist” group put Hitler mustaches on every President regardless of party. They have been doing so as far back as Sharpie has been making black markers
OK...........I changed my mind. I'm going to addres this.
If you truly believed and understood the first part of this, you'd be a conservative.
Liberal policies hurt people. They hurt the poor most of all. They create a dependency that is akin to slavery (this has been said before on this thread). Since the Great Society began, poor families have been destroyed, the black family has been virtually eliminated, people have been harmed, cities have fallen into ruin, while people on your side of the debate keep arguing that it is the conservatives who don't care about the poor.
Conservatism helps people achieve. It rewards achievement. It provides tools for achievement.
We are not content to feed the poor. We want to help the poor feed themselves.
As for me, as an individual, and a Christian, I take very seriously the Biblical command to take care of the poor, the widow and orphans.
But I also note that there is nothing in that about governments doing it. Only individuals, and churches. (I suppose that's because of how corrupt governments tend to become......especially dictatorial ones like Obama's).
What happens when the pie in the sky liberal says, "Let Government do everything," is that the government gets rich and the poor stay poor. (btw, liberals do very little individually to help people in need, while conservatives do a great deal. If you think government is going to take care of everyone and everything, you see no need to help others personally. WE do).
There are generations of welfare families who are condemned to stay there because of (possibly) well intentioned people, and greedy, corrupt politicians.
Conservatives want the safety net for those who really can't help themselves. But there are people who could work, who are healthy and able, who are sitting at home watching TV (or like the guy in CA, surfing). The Welfare Reform that took place in the 90's (thanks to a Republican House), has been removed by Obama, and the poor are getting poorer, while his Wall Street and union buddies are getting richer.
If that's what you really want, stay liberal.
If you really want people to rise out of poverty, support conservatism.
I'm sorry you feel that way. If at any point the majority of people here seem to not want me here I will leave. I'm not here to cause any problems.
I voted to let you stay but now wish I had waited a day or two before casting my vote. I very much dislike "preaching to choir" - a lot of which goes on here - and would love to have a conversation with someone honestly seeking answers but sadly I don't any longer think you fit that bill.
Well one difference between you and me, is I went into the military a Democrat, and came out a solid Republican. And if there was one single person who had the greatest impact on me turning Republican it had to be Jimmy Carter. When I was at age to start finding a part time job there was none to be had. I was hopelessly discouraged. I would turn in an entry level application and they would all tell me the same story, “we’re not hiring, but we will take your application.” And then it would be placed on top of a pile a foot high. Date money came from mowing lawns. This was the malaise Carter spoke about. First came the energy crises. I still find it hard to believe he asked America not to put up Christmas lights one year, and the odd-even gas lines, and if you want to stay warm put a sweater on he said. Yea, I saw the light. And a few years later my solid Roosevelt-loving Democrat Dad did as well. I would have never dreamed he would one day vote Republican. And now that the “malaise” is back I pray moderates get shaken from the trance Obama has them in and wake up!
Oh and when I left the Navy during Reagan’s term, help wanted signs were everywhere in my home town. There was a building boom with strip malls going up everywhere and new housing. It was a different world that the home town of 1977 I left.
He's been leading you people around by the nose since he got here.
Wake up...
BRAVO! You have distilled it down to it's essence!
The left wants to "do good" by reaching into the pockets of everyone except themselves (and enrich themselves in the process)! You and I believe that we should do it on our own and not go around crowing about it afterwards! A VAST difference!
He's been leading you people around by the nose since he got here.
Wake up...
Let me ask you a question (which I hope you will actually answer)....
Why do you support the racism of liberalism? Why do you support the anti-Semitism of liberals? Why do you think of African-Americans as incapable of taking care of themselves? Why do you think they are less able than whites?
I agree...
The forum is "eat up" with this nonsense going into the second day.
Like pulling damn teeth to get a specific answer.
Yall are aware I'm sure that OFA dispatches people with the simple mission to distract and disrupt--exactly what this poster is doing. Does he/she not have a regular job, other than working possibly for the Obama team? Is the nic a clue?
Yes. And help others do it on their own.
It does absolutely no good, no matter how 'pure' one's intentions are, to create a completely dependent underclass.
Who thinks that Detroit is a good thing? Who thinks that E. St. Louis is a good thing? Or Washington DC, for that matter.
Liberalism HARMS people.
If I could get anything through to this youngster, it would be that he has been duped by the left and thinks that liberalism is actually helpful to the poor.
In truth, it's killing them.
Yall are aware I'm sure that OFA dispatches people with the simple mission to distract and disrupt--exactly what this poster is doing. Does he/she not have a regular job, other than working possibly for the Obama team? Is the nic a clue?
The forum is "eat up" with this nonsense going into the second day.
Like pulling damn teeth to get a specific answer.
Yall are aware I'm sure that OFA dispatches people with the simple mission to distract and disrupt--exactly what this poster is doing. Does he/she not have a regular job, other than working possibly for the Obama team? Is the nic a clue?
If you can prove he is from OFA I will ban him
He's been leading you people around by the nose since he got here.
Wake up...
DCP said that in post #1.
This is why I told him to leave in the first place..then he does a thread and everyone rallies around him..
I think he's unified us, famous.
It's obvious to most of us that he's not genuine, and rather than distracting us, as he has planned, he's focused us on our common ideals.
(I don't want him to stay because he's lied, evaded and played games, but these two days haven't hurt us a bit. JMHO).
This is why I told him to leave in the first place..then he does a thread and everyone rallies around him..very clever of him....big mistake doing a poll, lesson learned on that and will NEVER happen again.
:amen:
I don't know whether to be totally amused by the reaction to this guy or deeply disturbed by it.
Sounds like a certain contingent on here, and a large one at that, has found their Godlstein.
Very true. Without his presence I don't think I would have know what brilliant posts you were capable of. Honest. Excellent prose verging on poetry. You da WOman!
You take a perverse pleasure in making me google things, don't you.
That's right, EC, that's exactly why I do it. Just to make you do some research. That plus I misspelled the name. It s/b "Goldstein" LOL.
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-roShpLNpTNY/T2qj3pSp3SI/AAAAAAAAB6Y/REeSXcZ5E50/s640/occupydc.jpg)(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ox4UqmcQECI/T2qj_OcMe2I/AAAAAAAAB6g/EcgxscWcCEs/s640/occupyla.jpg)(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-dAIFHNexB9c/T2qfJYDP7GI/AAAAAAAAB6Q/ApwQFcZNFOg/s1600/teapartybeforeafter.jpg)
Tea Party on the Mall - Before and After(http://scottthong.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/obamainaugvsteaparty.jpg)(http://sadhillnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/obama-ows-the-reason-i-ran-for-office-occupy-wall-street-tea-party-sad-hill-news.jpg)
Very true. Without his presence I don't think I would have know what brilliant posts you were capable of. Honest. Excellent prose verging on poetry. You da WOman!
Yeah, but some of my best stuff has been buried upstream!!! LOL!
I gotta have a beer with musiclady, tho!! (My beer obligations are growing!)
THIS post! Worth the price of admission!
And to think the poor young schleps whose future has been raped participated in the OWS filthy rallies while the adults who want to correct the rotten path America is on rallied as Tea Partiers.
I'd feel sorry for them if they hadn't put their own future in jeopardy by voting for a punk.
Of course. I always respectfully defer to a lady. But Mrs. Lando will need to join us... LOL!
Fascinating.
I dunno - the misspelling lead to something instructive. http://tbogg.firedoglake.com/2009/03/09/a-canticle-for-godlstein/
I do believe whoever wrote that should enter The Bulwer-Lytton Fiction Contest ( http://bulwer-lytton.com/ ). He would be a shoe-in.
It was a dark and stormy night...
Just out of curiosity, do you support the message of these protesters?
http://imgur.com/dc4E4PK
http://imgur.com/SGm4a87
http://imgur.com/FvcGQ5f
http://imgur.com/uEJqru0
http://imgur.com/mJ9GCRo
Obamacare is nothing but a high tech Nazi concentration camp. Instead of ID numbers tattooed on the arm, we have SSNs on file. Instead of being greeted by someone as you get off the train and being directed to the death camp or the work camp, we now have a committee to decide if you live or die. Instead of doctors deciding if they will save you or not, we now have a committee. Instead of a log book with all the victims information, we now have computer files. Instead of armed guards we have the NSA, IRA, and FBI working together to punish anyone who says anything negative about Herr Obama. I could go on at some length but you get the idea. 8888crybaby
Obamacare is nothing but a high tech Nazi concentration camp. Instead of ID numbers tattooed on the arm, we have SSNs on file. Instead of being greeted by someone as you get off the train and being directed to the death camp or the work camp, we now have a committee to decide if you live or die. Instead of doctors deciding if they will save you or not, we now have a committee. Instead of a log book with all the victims information, we now have computer files. Instead of armed guards we have the NSA, IRA, and FBI working together to punish anyone who says anything negative about Herr Obama. I could go on at some length but you get the idea. 8888crybaby
He's been leading you people around by the nose since he got here.
Wake up...
I find those rather childish actually, especially at a public rally (versus the Internet where the meme/parody concept in free speech is given much more leeway). Even more so from our side who has historically taken the higher ground.
Who's to say those are really conservative people anyway?
Don't swallow everything hook, line and sinker...
In many ways your analogy is very apt. Tyrants, even the proverbial 'moral busybody' who feels he is just looking out for everyone, no longer need to control the masses through threats of violence. In the past, they retained power through force. Now, they retain power through pacification and dependency. It is almost like a drug dealer. Give them a little taste of the drug and they become hooked, they then need you forever unless they go through a difficult detoxing. Look at how many attacks on liberty we now accept as normal simply because we are used to them.
Mostly what I was getting at is everybody has idiots in their party that get focused on too much. How many liberals have told you that the Tea Party is just a bunch of racists? Isn't that stupid? These people don't represent all of you, but they are out there, and they make you look bad. We have those too, but they don't represent all of us. Some of the people in those giant protests were undoubtedly complete idiots, and did stupid shit that made everybody else look bad, but that doesn't mean they are all like that.
Don't swallow everything hook, line and sinker...
If Conservatives did that, then to hell with them. However, over and over, liberals have infiltrated rallies and posed as one of them, only to be exposed later. Who knows, since that is generally a liberal thing.
People like Liberal Spy thinks we all just fell off a turnip truck.
I'm not gonna play with the youngster anymore. His football is too new.
Exactly. At its core, OWS are anarchists. They are radical, angry and violent. And it is so easy for the core to light a fuse with their useful idiot followers. Opposition, destruction, defamation, ridicule - tools of the trade - become wielded by "peace lovers" all at the tacit and sublime bidding of their core. They are a mob made up of group thinkers comprised heavily and largely of people who want sustenance from the Government teat. They will maim and even kill the person peacefully holding a sign that says, "Abortion Kills, or "God is the Answer", or "Marriage: One Man, One Woman". They are the quintessential "The ends justify the means" movement. I would dare L_S to hold such signs at an OWS rally but I don't want that on my conscience. And, post facto event, these people leave it to revisionist history and lies to sort it out. Truth is a relative concept and among the first casualties of the movement.
Examine the obverse - the Tea Party rally. The contrast is starkly different and immediately apparent to any casual observer. They are made up largely of societal contributors who understand that this "Grand Experiment" created something wonderful. They accept there are flaws but believe that within a magnificent, even Divine, document there are answers. And, they understand that it is all in grave peril. So, they step forward as individuals, not as group thinkers, but individually - with a collective voice pleading for respect and the return to those Divine principles that have guided us for so long. To them, that is the Truth.
I was going to come back to this and add some thoughts but I will leave it alone.
Mostly what I was getting at is everybody has idiots in their party that get focused on too much. How many liberals have told you that the Tea Party is just a bunch of racists? Isn't that stupid? These people don't represent all of you, but they are out there, and they make you look bad. We have those too, but they don't represent all of us. Some of the people in those giant protests were undoubtedly complete idiots, and did stupid shit that made everybody else look bad, but that doesn't mean they are all like that.
That's rich. Here's a hint: the difference 'twixt conservatives/republicans and liberals/democrats on this point consists of this:
the whackjobs amongst conservatives/republicans are on the fringe and they are justly ostracized by every other conservative/republican who isn't also a whackjob; liberals/democrats make their whackjobs their leaders, the case in point sine qua non being their President.
That's rich. Here's a hint: the difference 'twixt conservatives/republicans and liberals/democrats on this point consists of this:
the whackjobs amongst conservatives/republicans are on the fringe and they are justly ostracized by every other conservative/republican who isn't also a whackjob; liberals/democrats make their whackjobs their leaders, the case in point sine qua non being their President.
That's rich. Here's a hint: the difference 'twixt conservatives/republicans and liberals/democrats on this point consists of this:
the whackjobs amongst conservatives/republicans are on the fringe and they are justly ostracized by every other conservative/republican who isn't also a whackjob; liberals/democrats make their whackjobs their leaders, the case in point sine qua non being their President.
This is very true. Who are the most admired among the liberal elites? People like Angela Davis and Bill Ayers. If one is a liberal and does not embrace the "radicals," one loses his street cred. Meanwhile, conservatives castigated the John Birch Society and Ku Klux Klan.
Speaking of which, the Democrats labeled Robert Byrd (D) the 'conscious of the Senate' up until his death a few years ago. Yes, Robert Byrd (D), the unapologetic Grand Whatever of the KKK.
Ah, yes...........the recent history of racism among the Democrats to follow through on the origins of the Democrat Party.....
RACISM.
Ah, yes...........the recent history of racism among the Democrats to follow through on the origins of the Democrat Party.....
RACISM.
Ah,, do you mean like former klan member Woodrow Wilson? Like J. William Fulbright, Bile Clinton's mentor? Perhaps you were referring to Al Gore's father who fought against Civil Rights? I suppose you could be speaking of the dixiecrats? On the other hand, it is possible you might be referring to the democrats who wrote the Jim Crow laws? There are so many examples of democrat racism, it is hard to keep up with it all. Oh, I forgot Barack Ali Bama who's fine policies have left blacks with a higher unemployment rate and more enslaved to the government plantation than ever, than in the depression.
All of the above, and more.
The racism of liberalism hasn't gone away. It's just gone underground.
They still want to keep blacks down. They want them poor and subservient.
It's disgusting.
Ah,, do you mean like former klan member Woodrow Wilson? Like J. William Fulbright, Bile Clinton's mentor? Perhaps you were referring to Al Gore's father who fought against Civil Rights? I suppose you could be speaking of the dixiecrats? On the other hand, it is possible you might be referring to the democrats who wrote the Jim Crow laws? There are so many examples of democrat racism, it is hard to keep up with it all. Oh, I forgot Barack Ali Bama who's fine policies have left blacks with a higher unemployment rate and more enslaved to the government plantation than ever, than in the depression.:peeonobama:
Keep them down, you say? More like genocide via infanticide.
This is very true. Who are the most admired among the liberal elites? People like Angela Davis and Bill Ayers. If one is a liberal and does not embrace the "radicals," one loses his street cred. Meanwhile, conservatives castigated the John Birch Society and Ku Klux Klan.
If that is true (and it is), then it would seem democrats faithfully keep Reagan's 11th commandment regarding other party members whilst republican's routinely break it. :pondering:
Neither Birchers nor KKK'ers were Republicans. The 11th commandment refers only to Republicans, not conservatives or right wing looneys.
Birchers hate both parties.
Birchers hate everyone.