Author Topic: Heavy Air  (Read 8300 times)

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Offline ChemEngrMBA

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Heavy Air
« on: October 20, 2012, 01:41:57 pm »
Most common answers to the question which follows the answers:

1.  "Nothing"
2.  "10,000 pounds"

Now the question:

What is the mass of one cubic mile of air at sea level?

Assume STP, of course, and a perfect cube.  In other words, imagine a strong steel box 1 mile by 1 mile by 1 mile. 
If it were evacuated, sealed, and weighed at sea level, and then unsealed and air allowed to fill it, what is the increase over the tare weight?
The answer will astound you.
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Oceander

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Re: Heavy Air
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2012, 04:58:29 pm »
Most common answers to the question which follows the answers:

1.  "Nothing"
2.  "10,000 pounds"

Now the question:

What is the mass of one cubic mile of air at sea level?

Assume STP, of course, and a perfect cube.  In other words, imagine a strong steel box 1 mile by 1 mile by 1 mile. 
If it were evacuated, sealed, and weighed at sea level, and then unsealed and air allowed to fill it, what is the increase over the tare weight?
The answer will astound you.


Mass, or weight?  The two are not the same.  An object has the same mass on the Earth and the Moon (and anywhere else in the Universe for that matter), but that same object weighs only about 1/6th as much on the Moon as it does on the Earth.

Weight is the gravitational force acting on a given body—which differs depending on the gravitational pull of the opposing body (e.g. a person's weight on Earth vs on the Moon) — while mass is an intrinsic property of that body that never changes. In other words, an object's weight depends on its environment, while its mass does not.

Offline jmyrlefuller

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Re: Heavy Air
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2012, 08:18:12 pm »
One cubic mile at sea level. I will assume that that by this, you mean "one cubic mile of air at mean sea level pressure," since if you were to set a one-cubic-mile cube at sea level, the top would be a mile high and have a significantly lower pressure than the bottom (about 15% lower, to be more precise), thus affecting the amount (and thus the mass) in the cube. So since you say "assume STP," that's what we'll do.

Mean sea level pressure = 101,325 Pa (kg/(m*s²))
Standard temperature = 0°C = 273.15 K

Pressure = density * specific gas constant * temperature

We will also assume typical, Earth-atmosphere, dry air, with the specific gas constant of 287.04 m²/(K*s²).

101325 kg/(m*s²) = density * 287.04 m²/(K*s²) * 273.15 K

Solving for density, we get 1.2923 kg/m³.

Now, using the U.S. definition of mile (5280 feet of 12 inches, each of 0.0254 meters; i.e., 1609.3 m), and cubing it, we get a cubic mile of 4.1682 billion m³. Multiply that by our density, and we get 5.3865 billion kg.

Five billion kilograms? Really? Yeah. Well, shave off that 7% or so for altitude differences, but yeah. A volume as big as a cubic mile can hold a lot of gas. Imagine for a moment that same area filled with water (density = 1000 kg/m³). That same cubic mile (encountered frequently in the oceans) has over 4 trillion kg of mass-- 800 times heavier.

So, unless this is a trick question, my final answer is about 5 billion kg. (No, I'm not converting to pounds. Pounds is a unit of weight and is relative. The customary system has no direct unit for mass.)
« Last Edit: October 22, 2012, 08:21:07 pm by jmyrlefuller »
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Offline ChemEngrMBA

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Re: Heavy Air
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2012, 09:47:42 pm »
Mass, or weight?  The two are not the same.  An object has the same mass on the Earth and the Moon (and anywhere else in the Universe for that matter), but that same object weighs only about 1/6th as much on the Moon as it does on the Earth.

YOU mentioned the moon, not I.  YOU conflated mass and weight, not I.
I specifically said "sea level."  There IS no sea on the moon, which in any case, I never mentioned.  Only you did.
The Book Commentary: "The book (Brilliant Creations - The Wonder of Nature and Life) is pure genius."
Review by John Orosz, M.D. "It is beyond outstanding. Please send me twenty signed copies for colleagues, family, and libraries."
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"You have the most agile mind of anyone I know." -
Avice Marie Griffin, PhD, Clinical Psychologist

Offline ChemEngrMBA

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Re: Heavy Air
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2012, 10:03:58 pm »
STP would refer to standard conditions at sea level ONLY, as you should know.
What the atmospheric pressure is at sea level varies widely, but it is ALWAYS - ALWAYS less one mile up.
You cannot concoct a scenario on earth where air pressure is constant from sea level to one mile high.

The correct answer is about 5.2 million tons.  You overstated the answer with your unwarranted assumption of "one cubic mile of air"
at 14.7 PSI everywhere, top to bottom.  Impossible.

One cubic mile at sea level. I will assume that that by this, you mean "one cubic mile of air at mean sea level pressure," since if you were to set a one-cubic-mile cube at sea level, the top would be a mile high and have a significantly lower pressure than the bottom (about 15% lower, to be more precise), thus affecting the amount (and thus the mass) in the cube. So since you say "assume STP," that's what we'll do.

//

We will also assume typical, Earth-atmosphere, dry air, with the specific gas constant of 287.04 m²/(K*s²).

//
Five billion kilograms? Really? Yeah. Well, shave off that 7% or so for altitude differences, but yeah. A volume as big as a cubic mile can hold a lot of gas.
The Book Commentary: "The book (Brilliant Creations - The Wonder of Nature and Life) is pure genius."
Review by John Orosz, M.D. "It is beyond outstanding. Please send me twenty signed copies for colleagues, family, and libraries."
"I was running every morning for twenty years with a genius." - Mike McCartney, D.D.S.
"You have the most agile mind of anyone I know." -
Avice Marie Griffin, PhD, Clinical Psychologist

Offline jmyrlefuller

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Re: Heavy Air
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2012, 02:03:30 am »
5.2 billion kg is equal to 5.2 million tons. 1 ton = 1000 kg.
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Oceander

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Re: Heavy Air
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2012, 02:48:09 am »
Mass, or weight?  The two are not the same.  An object has the same mass on the Earth and the Moon (and anywhere else in the Universe for that matter), but that same object weighs only about 1/6th as much on the Moon as it does on the Earth.

YOU mentioned the moon, not I.  YOU conflated mass and weight, not I.
I specifically said "sea level."  There IS no sea on the moon, which in any case, I never mentioned.  Only you did.

With all due respect, you have some major reading comprehension problems.  I'd focus on getting that fixed first before you continue looking around for motes in others' eyes.

Offline ChemEngrMBA

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Re: Heavy Air
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2012, 02:48:52 am »
5.2 billion kg is equal to 5.2 million tons. 1 ton = 1000 kg.

A ton is 2000 pounds.
A metric ton is 2,200 pounds.
The Book Commentary: "The book (Brilliant Creations - The Wonder of Nature and Life) is pure genius."
Review by John Orosz, M.D. "It is beyond outstanding. Please send me twenty signed copies for colleagues, family, and libraries."
"I was running every morning for twenty years with a genius." - Mike McCartney, D.D.S.
"You have the most agile mind of anyone I know." -
Avice Marie Griffin, PhD, Clinical Psychologist

Offline ChemEngrMBA

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Re: Heavy Air
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2012, 02:57:03 am »
Oceander, you are the first person I have ever encountered who failed to understand the ineluctable relationship between altitude and pressure.
The bottom of the theoretical box is at sea level, where the pressure is 760 Torr.  It must decrease as altitude increases, inside or outside.

The Book Commentary: "The book (Brilliant Creations - The Wonder of Nature and Life) is pure genius."
Review by John Orosz, M.D. "It is beyond outstanding. Please send me twenty signed copies for colleagues, family, and libraries."
"I was running every morning for twenty years with a genius." - Mike McCartney, D.D.S.
"You have the most agile mind of anyone I know." -
Avice Marie Griffin, PhD, Clinical Psychologist

Offline Lando Lincoln

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Re: Heavy Air
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2012, 03:02:16 am »
Oceander, you are the first person I have ever encountered who failed to understand the ineluctable relationship between altitude and pressure.
The bottom of the theoretical box is at sea level, where the pressure is 760 Torr.  It must decrease as altitude increases, inside or outside.

I'm just askin'... is that necessary?  Sheese, let's elect a new President!
There are some among us who live in rooms of experience we can never enter.
John Steinbeck

Oceander

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Re: Heavy Air
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2012, 03:26:01 am »
Oceander, you are the first person I have ever encountered who failed to understand the ineluctable relationship between altitude and pressure.
The bottom of the theoretical box is at sea level, where the pressure is 760 Torr.  It must decrease as altitude increases, inside or outside.



Why I'm responding I don't know - I suppose it's my own ego - but I'll just say this:  what you know about what I do or do not know would, if converted into mass, be less than the rest mass of an electron.

Offline ChemEngrMBA

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Re: Heavy Air
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2012, 02:57:29 pm »
"Ego" is such a small word to describe your Infinite Wonderfulness which exceeds that of Obama the preening narcissist.

How amazing that you did not so much as attempt to answer the question and show your calculations and reasoning therefor, Oceander, Your Infinite Wonderfulness.

Bowing deeply, as Obama bowed down before the "king" of Saudi Arabia, I now take my humble leave, with your permission.....
The Book Commentary: "The book (Brilliant Creations - The Wonder of Nature and Life) is pure genius."
Review by John Orosz, M.D. "It is beyond outstanding. Please send me twenty signed copies for colleagues, family, and libraries."
"I was running every morning for twenty years with a genius." - Mike McCartney, D.D.S.
"You have the most agile mind of anyone I know." -
Avice Marie Griffin, PhD, Clinical Psychologist

Offline ChemEngrMBA

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Re: Heavy Air
« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2019, 12:26:36 am »
Most common answers to the question which follows the answers:

1.  "Nothing"
2.  "10,000 pounds"

Now the question:

What is the mass of one cubic mile of air at sea level?

Assume STP, of course, and a perfect cube.  In other words, imagine a strong steel box 1 mile by 1 mile by 1 mile. 
If it were evacuated, sealed, and weighed at sea level, and then unsealed and air allowed to fill it, what is the increase over the tare weight?
The answer will astound you. [5.2 million tons]

On the subject of a cubic mile, it is a profound truth that every human alive today on earth could hypothetically fit inside one cubic mile.  5,280 cubed = 127 billion cubic feet, almost 20 cubic feet per human alive today.....
The Book Commentary: "The book (Brilliant Creations - The Wonder of Nature and Life) is pure genius."
Review by John Orosz, M.D. "It is beyond outstanding. Please send me twenty signed copies for colleagues, family, and libraries."
"I was running every morning for twenty years with a genius." - Mike McCartney, D.D.S.
"You have the most agile mind of anyone I know." -
Avice Marie Griffin, PhD, Clinical Psychologist

Offline Elderberry

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Re: Heavy Air
« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2019, 08:19:06 pm »
On the subject of a cubic mile, it is a profound truth that every human alive today on earth could hypothetically fit inside one cubic mile.  5,280 cubed = 127 billion cubic feet, almost 20 cubic feet per human alive today.....

No way Jose'. At the most, one may be able to cram in 10 million in one level, but that's it. Unless you put in multiple floors. So your truth is not so profound. If you are fitting humans into your cube, they have to remain "Fit" and not crushed.

Offline ChemEngrMBA

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Re: Heavy Air
« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2019, 10:08:04 pm »
No way Jose'. At the most, one may be able to cram in 10 million in one level, but that's it. Unless you put in multiple floors. So your truth is not so profound. If you are fitting humans into your cube, they have to remain "Fit" and not crushed.

"Hypothetically" is a word you seem to have missed, really.
Let me put it differently.  The volume of all humans alive today is less than one cubic mile.
So your criticism is invalid.
The Book Commentary: "The book (Brilliant Creations - The Wonder of Nature and Life) is pure genius."
Review by John Orosz, M.D. "It is beyond outstanding. Please send me twenty signed copies for colleagues, family, and libraries."
"I was running every morning for twenty years with a genius." - Mike McCartney, D.D.S.
"You have the most agile mind of anyone I know." -
Avice Marie Griffin, PhD, Clinical Psychologist

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Re: Heavy Air
« Reply #15 on: May 31, 2019, 11:40:08 pm »
 :pondering:
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Offline Elderberry

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Re: Heavy Air
« Reply #16 on: May 31, 2019, 11:54:57 pm »
"Hypothetically" is a word you seem to have missed, really.
Let me put it differently.  The volume of all humans alive today is less than one cubic mile.
So your criticism is invalid.

You still fail.

"Hypothetically" Definition: by imagining a possibility rather than reality; as a hypothesis.

Not a possibility or a hypothesis.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2019, 12:38:46 am by Elderberry »

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Re: Heavy Air
« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2019, 12:56:59 am »
You still fail.

"Hypothetically" Definition: by imagining a possibility rather than reality; as a hypothesis.

Not a possibility or a hypothesis.

They will fit if you use a  car crusher like the ones in scrap yards.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Offline Elderberry

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Re: Heavy Air
« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2019, 01:04:03 am »
They will fit if you use a  car crusher like the ones in scrap yards.

Think auger or pump. Otherwise they'll ooze out as you put more in.

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Re: Heavy Air
« Reply #19 on: June 01, 2019, 01:17:11 am »
Think auger or pump. Otherwise they'll ooze out as you put more in.

It'll take a combination.  Bones are really bulky.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Offline Elderberry

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Re: Heavy Air
« Reply #20 on: June 01, 2019, 01:24:00 am »
Bones? No problem.


Offline ChemEngrMBA

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Re: Heavy Air
« Reply #21 on: June 01, 2019, 11:57:45 pm »
You still fail.

"Hypothetically" Definition: by imagining a possibility rather than reality; as a hypothesis.

Not a possibility or a hypothesis.

How stupid of me to try to claim that the volume of all living humans is less than one cubic mile. 
How utterly stupid of me.
Tell all those reading, then, what IS the approximate volume of all living humans, under assumptions of your choice, of course?
The Book Commentary: "The book (Brilliant Creations - The Wonder of Nature and Life) is pure genius."
Review by John Orosz, M.D. "It is beyond outstanding. Please send me twenty signed copies for colleagues, family, and libraries."
"I was running every morning for twenty years with a genius." - Mike McCartney, D.D.S.
"You have the most agile mind of anyone I know." -
Avice Marie Griffin, PhD, Clinical Psychologist

Offline GtHawk

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Re: Heavy Air
« Reply #22 on: June 02, 2019, 01:31:53 am »
I have many times heard the phrase mental masturbation but never thought I would see a prime example...............................until this thread. :thud:

Offline 240B

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Re: Heavy Air
« Reply #23 on: June 02, 2019, 02:32:34 am »
The sea of tranquility is on the moon.
You cannot "COEXIST" with people who want to kill you.
If they kill their own with no conscience, there is nothing to stop them from killing you.
Rational fear and anger at vicious murderous Islamic terrorists is the same as irrational antisemitism, according to the Leftists.

Offline ChemEngrMBA

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Re: Heavy Air
« Reply #24 on: August 09, 2019, 03:48:07 pm »

For the progressive, (SIC)  there is very little to love about the United States. Washington, Jefferson, Madison? A bunch of rotten slaveholders, hypocrites, and cowards even when their hearts were in the right places. The Declaration of Independence? A manifesto for the propertied classes. The Constitution? An artifact of sexism and white supremacy.

1.  "Progressive" is a one-word oxymoron.   Promoting socialism, class and race warfare, and badmouthing America is sick, demented, destructive.  Leave if you hate America so very much.
2.  Badmouthing America and continuing to live here is hypocrisy and cowardice.

http://DemocratInsanity.blogspot.com

The Book Commentary: "The book (Brilliant Creations - The Wonder of Nature and Life) is pure genius."
Review by John Orosz, M.D. "It is beyond outstanding. Please send me twenty signed copies for colleagues, family, and libraries."
"I was running every morning for twenty years with a genius." - Mike McCartney, D.D.S.
"You have the most agile mind of anyone I know." -
Avice Marie Griffin, PhD, Clinical Psychologist