Author Topic: US Supreme Court: Gun Licensing Fees Are Unconstitutional  (Read 2199 times)

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Offline Elderberry

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US Supreme Court: Gun Licensing Fees Are Unconstitutional
« on: April 13, 2021, 04:52:51 pm »
American Thinker by Civis Americanus 4/12/2021

While I am not an attorney and cannot give formal legal advice, a 1943 U.S. Supreme Court decision, Murdock v. Pennsylvania, may give Second Amendment–supporters an overwhelming legal weapon with which to destroy every single firearm ownership (although not necessarily concealed carry) licensing scheme in the country.  This includes those that require licenses to own or purchase firearms.

•   License to own: IL, MA, NY

•   License to purchase: CT, HI, IA, MD, MI, NE, NJ, NC, RI

The executive summary of the ruling in Murdock v. Pennsylvania (1943) was that it is unconstitutional for a state to levy a tax on people who want to sell religious merchandise.  "A municipal ordinance which, as construed and applied, requires religious colporteurs to pay a license tax as a condition to the pursuit of their activities, is invalid under the Federal Constitution as a denial of freedom of speech, press and religion. The mere fact that the religious literature is 'sold', rather than 'donated' does not transform the activities of the colporteur into a commercial enterprise."

What does this have to do with fees to obtain a license to own or purchase a firearm?  The USSC also found, "A State may not impose a charge for the enjoyment of a right granted by the Federal Constitution."  This means the entire Bill of Rights as opposed to just the First Amendment.
It is similarly unconstitutional to charge a fee to exercise the right to vote, AKA a poll tax.  This could well be the reason why states with voter ID laws must provide free identification cards to qualified residents who do not have driver's licenses, as shown by Crawford v. Marion County Election Board.  "The law's universally applicable requirements are eminently reasonable because the burden of acquiring, possessing, and showing a free photo identification is not a significant increase over the usual voting burdens, and the State's stated interests are sufficient to sustain that minimal burden."  States can charge fees for driver's licenses because driving is a privilege, but voting is a right.

More: https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2021/04/us_supreme_court_gun_licensing_fees_are_unconstitutional.html

Offline thackney

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Re: US Supreme Court: Gun Licensing Fees Are Unconstitutional
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2021, 05:08:37 pm »
Can you imagine a license requirement for the 1st amendment?
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Offline Hoodat

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Re: US Supreme Court: Gun Licensing Fees Are Unconstitutional
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2021, 05:15:00 pm »
Can you imagine a license requirement for the 1st amendment?

Can you imagine a sales tax on newspapers?  Or a government establishing secular humanism as a basis for religious law?
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Offline Sled Dog

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Re: US Supreme Court: Gun Licensing Fees Are Unconstitutional
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2021, 07:57:33 pm »
Can you imagine a license requirement for the 1st amendment?

You mean FCC broadcast licensing?
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Offline Sled Dog

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Re: US Supreme Court: Gun Licensing Fees Are Unconstitutional
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2021, 07:59:48 pm »
Can you imagine a sales tax on newspapers?  Or a government establishing secular humanism as a basis for religious law?

SH is the basis for all sorts of cult-beliefs of the left.

They believe there is no difference between man and woman.
They believe man can become woman, that men can menstruate, and that girls can compete with boys in athletics.
They worship the earth.
They believe they can do no wrong.

So, sure, secular humanism is frequently codified into law in contradiction to the First Amendment. 
The GOP is not the party leadership.  The GOP is the party MEMBERSHIP.   The members need to kick the leaders out if they leaders are going the wrong way.  No coddling allowed.

Offline thackney

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Re: US Supreme Court: Gun Licensing Fees Are Unconstitutional
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2021, 08:53:33 pm »
You mean FCC broadcast licensing?

That is for permission to use public controlled radio frequency. 

You don't need a license to own a car but you need one to drive on the public roads.

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Offline GtHawk

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Re: US Supreme Court: Gun Licensing Fees Are Unconstitutional
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2021, 11:52:45 pm »
Can you imagine a sales tax on newspapers?  Or a government establishing secular humanism as a basis for religious law?
I seem to recall many many moons ago in California that when I bought a newspaper inside a liquor store they charged me tax, it may have been around the time they eliminated the take out exemption for food. But that was also back in the day that you could find a newspaper where the writers mostly kept their opinion on the editorial or opinion pages, the journalism that was and they never even had a funeral.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: US Supreme Court: Gun Licensing Fees Are Unconstitutional
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2021, 09:30:20 am »
Back on target, how about "taxing" firearms, like the NFA of '34 provides?
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Sled Dog

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Re: US Supreme Court: Gun Licensing Fees Are Unconstitutional
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2021, 05:13:44 pm »
That is for permission to use public controlled radio frequency. 

You don't need a license to own a car but you need one to drive on the public roads.

And the government had what Constitutional authority to seize ownership of the electromagnetic spectrum?

Nobody disagrees with the mandatory licensing of motor-vehicle operators.   It's a safety issue.   That does not apply to the radio waves.  What should have happened, in a free society, was that the government would have expanded patent protections to operators who developed and exploited radio band-width, within the effective range of the transmitters.  The patent holders would have rights to exclusive use of that bandwidth, rights that could be sold and traded on the open market.

In other words, someone operating WKRP out of Cincinatti would have sole right to that frequency in that area, and the regulations would have restricted other use in that area, punishing radio piracy.    As the technology developed, so too would the laws.   

Blanket seizure of the entire spectrum was not an authority the Congress held from the  Constitution.  Radio is not "interstate commerce".   It's covered by the First Amendment.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2021, 05:16:40 pm by Sled Dog »
The GOP is not the party leadership.  The GOP is the party MEMBERSHIP.   The members need to kick the leaders out if they leaders are going the wrong way.  No coddling allowed.

Offline Sled Dog

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Re: US Supreme Court: Gun Licensing Fees Are Unconstitutional
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2021, 05:14:58 pm »
Back on target, how about "taxing" firearms, like the NFA of '34 provides?

Nope, that would seem to be an "infringement", as is the goal of the Rodents to tax ammunition out of existence.

A sales tax that treats ammo as any other retail product is one thing, any tax targeting ammunition is something else.
The GOP is not the party leadership.  The GOP is the party MEMBERSHIP.   The members need to kick the leaders out if they leaders are going the wrong way.  No coddling allowed.

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: US Supreme Court: Gun Licensing Fees Are Unconstitutional
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2021, 06:21:39 pm »
The SCOTUS has done a lot of chipping away at the 2nd Amendment since 1943.  Citing this decision won't get us anywhere. :shrug:
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: US Supreme Court: Gun Licensing Fees Are Unconstitutional
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2021, 08:52:16 pm »
Nope, that would seem to be an "infringement", as is the goal of the Rodents to tax ammunition out of existence.

A sales tax that treats ammo as any other retail product is one thing, any tax targeting ammunition is something else.
The question of "tax" vs "penalty" was already rewritten by the SCOTUS (Roberts) in the case against the ACA (Obamacare). The wording of anything will be moot as the Chief Justice effectively rewrote the law against the stated intent of the Legislature in order to rule the ACA penalty/tax "Constitutional".

Granted, either application of a pecuniary compensation to the state for the exercise of a fundamental civil right can be seen as "infringement", but will it in the weasel worded atmosphere of modern jurisprudence?

Frankly, the infringements since and including the NFA of '34 are all unconstitutional, and should have been fought from day one. The difference between a 16.001 inch long barrel on a rifle and 15.998 inches is a Felony in law, but for all practical tactical or ballistic purposes, there is no difference. Registering and taxing one class of weapons makes no difference in anything but the expense in owning one, a clear infringement on a fundamental civil right.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: US Supreme Court: Gun Licensing Fees Are Unconstitutional
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2021, 08:52:47 pm »
The SCOTUS has done a lot of chipping away at the 2nd Amendment since 1943.  Citing this decision won't get us anywhere. :shrug:
That'd be 1934...
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Sled Dog

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Re: US Supreme Court: Gun Licensing Fees Are Unconstitutional
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2021, 01:12:11 am »
That'd be 1934...

Yeah, that's what I thought.  The Miller decision, right?  Where the moron judges said that the 2A was limited to weapons of war and that sawed-off shotguns had no utility on a battle-field, which was a laugh because they were used in the trenches of Europe to clean out Jerries.

The GOP is not the party leadership.  The GOP is the party MEMBERSHIP.   The members need to kick the leaders out if they leaders are going the wrong way.  No coddling allowed.

Offline Sled Dog

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Re: US Supreme Court: Gun Licensing Fees Are Unconstitutional
« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2021, 01:14:49 am »
The question of "tax" vs "penalty" was already rewritten by the SCOTUS (Roberts) in the case against the ACA (Obamacare). The wording of anything will be moot as the Chief Justice effectively rewrote the law against the stated intent of the Legislature in order to rule the ACA penalty/tax "Constitutional".

Granted, either application of a pecuniary compensation to the state for the exercise of a fundamental civil right can be seen as "infringement", but will it in the weasel worded atmosphere of modern jurisprudence?

Frankly, the infringements since and including the NFA of '34 are all unconstitutional, and should have been fought from day one. The difference between a 16.001 inch long barrel on a rifle and 15.998 inches is a Felony in law, but for all practical tactical or ballistic purposes, there is no difference. Registering and taxing one class of weapons makes no difference in anything but the expense in owning one, a clear infringement on a fundamental civil right.

But, as you should note, by declaring the fines to be "taxes", the Court then placed MessiahCare in direct violation of the Originations Clause, which requires all bills raising revenue (taxes) to be started in the HOUSE, whereas MessiahCare started in a Senate committee.

So, either way, MessiahCare is still completely unconstitutional.

We don't even need to go to the place where the Constitution does not authorize federal creation of a health insurance program and thus MessiahCare is null and void per the Tenth Amendment.
The GOP is not the party leadership.  The GOP is the party MEMBERSHIP.   The members need to kick the leaders out if they leaders are going the wrong way.  No coddling allowed.

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: US Supreme Court: Gun Licensing Fees Are Unconstitutional
« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2021, 02:36:42 am »
That'd be 1934...

No.  This discussion is about the 1943 U.S. Supreme Court decision, Murdock v. Pennsylvania.
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: US Supreme Court: Gun Licensing Fees Are Unconstitutional
« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2021, 06:27:31 am »
Yeah, that's what I thought.  The Miller decision, right?  Where the moron judges said that the 2A was limited to weapons of war and that sawed-off shotguns had no utility on a battle-field, which was a laugh because they were used in the trenches of Europe to clean out Jerries.
No, 1934 was the year the NFA passed. Miller was in 1939, and was decideed more or less by default, considering the defendant had passed away and no arguments were made.

Talk about missed opportunity, the attorney could have pleaded and SCOTUS overturned the NFA if they had done reasonably well, and saved Americans from being saddled with innumerable laws and infringements on their civil rights in the meantime.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Sighlass

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Re: US Supreme Court: Gun Licensing Fees Are Unconstitutional
« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2021, 07:05:44 am »
Quote from: article
"A State may not impose a charge for the enjoyment of a right granted by the Federal Constitution." 

How about a right granted by God. The right to defend ourselves, provide food for the table, and protect ourselves from an overzealous government.
Exodus 18:21 Furthermore, you shall select out of all the people able men who fear God, men of truth, those who hate dishonest gain; and you shall place these over them as leaders over ....

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: US Supreme Court: Gun Licensing Fees Are Unconstitutional
« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2021, 07:21:28 am »
How about a right granted by God. The right to defend ourselves, provide food for the table, and protect ourselves from an overzealous government.
Precisely. The Constitution does not grant Rights, it merely acknowledges the existence of a limited list and tells the Federal Government to leave those (and others not mentioned) alone. The idea is to limit the Government, not the Rights of The People, who formed that government to protect their (preexisting) Rights..
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline roamer_1

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Re: US Supreme Court: Gun Licensing Fees Are Unconstitutional
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2021, 08:08:49 am »
Precisely. The Constitution does not grant Rights, it merely acknowledges the existence of a limited list and tells the Federal Government to leave those (and others not mentioned) alone. The idea is to limit the Government, not the Rights of The People, who formed that government to protect their (preexisting) Rights..

More than that - The very formation of this government's aegis is to PROTECT them.

Offline sneakypete

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Re: US Supreme Court: Gun Licensing Fees Are Unconstitutional
« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2021, 09:46:12 am »
Quote
•   License to purchase: CT, HI, IA, MD, MI, NE, NJ, NC, RI

@Elderberry

You have to get a permit to even buy a gun in NC now? I know the left has taken over control of NC now via black immigrants from the north and non-white immigrants from Spanish-speaking slums passing for nations in the south,but I didn't realize they had gained THAT much control.

NC is now officially a yankee state.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2021, 09:47:02 am by sneakypete »
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Offline sneakypete

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Re: US Supreme Court: Gun Licensing Fees Are Unconstitutional
« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2021, 09:49:39 am »
Can you imagine a license requirement for the 1st amendment?

@thackney

Yes,and I can imagine it coming from a government now in charge of what USED to be "The UNITED STATES of America.

And we have no one to blame but ourselves for sitting by idly and allowing it to happen.

After all,it didn't happen secretly. The left stood up on both hind hooves and announced that taking over control of America was their goal,and they did it for decade after decade.

It is our fault for sitting by idly and ignoring the threat. Or more correctly,mostly the fault of our parents and grandparents for not "nipping it in the bud". After all,if THEY didn't have vivid examples of what happens to the citizens once a leftist government takes over control,nobody has ever had any warnings about anything.

IMNSHO,this only gained traction because our parents and grandparents ALLOWED the left to get away with identifying the Nazi's a a right-wing political movement,and even Helen Keller could tell at a casual glance there were leftists to the core.

Once people gain the power to shout you down by simply identifying you are a Nazi in public,they are in control of the discussion.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2021, 09:55:06 am by sneakypete »
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Offline sneakypete

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Re: US Supreme Court: Gun Licensing Fees Are Unconstitutional
« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2021, 09:58:55 am »
SH is the basis for all sorts of cult-beliefs of the left.

They believe there is no difference between man and woman.
They believe man can become woman, that men can menstruate, and that girls can compete with boys in athletics.
They worship the earth.
They believe they can do no wrong.

So, sure, secular humanism is frequently codified into law in contradiction to the First Amendment.

@Sled Dog

That's odd. *I*,most likely fall into the "secular humanist category" by YOUR definitions because I don't believe in crap like a "Holy Ghost living in the sky that sees all,knows all,and is getting wood at the thought of roasting you over a spit for all of eternity unless you agree to kiss his ass at every opportunity and become his slave".

Yet,I believe in NONE of that crap you list.

Is your problem that you don't already have enough enemies,and feel the need to create more?
« Last Edit: April 15, 2021, 10:00:00 am by sneakypete »
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Offline sneakypete

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Re: US Supreme Court: Gun Licensing Fees Are Unconstitutional
« Reply #23 on: April 15, 2021, 10:02:37 am »
I seem to recall many many moons ago in California that when I bought a newspaper inside a liquor store they charged me tax, it may have been around the time they eliminated the take out exemption for food. But that was also back in the day that you could find a newspaper where the writers mostly kept their opinion on the editorial or opinion pages, the journalism that was and they never even had a funeral.

@GtHawk

If there has EVER been a long overdue funeral,it is that one.

Now that I think about it,I honestly doubt that anyone living today under the age of 50 even understands what that means. ALL they have ever known is the biased press of today that wears red and marches in a straight line.
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Offline sneakypete

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Re: US Supreme Court: Gun Licensing Fees Are Unconstitutional
« Reply #24 on: April 15, 2021, 10:04:26 am »
Back on target, how about "taxing" firearms, like the NFA of '34 provides?

@Smokin Joe

Didn't even the drones that worked up Lord and Master Roosevelt pretty much admit that was a step too far,but took it anyway,like all good comrades should?

Now it is so firmly established into law that anyone is shocked if you even suggest it was un-Constitutional.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2021, 10:05:20 am by sneakypete »
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!