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Online mystery-ak

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The Death of Conservatism
« on: April 04, 2021, 10:34:43 AM »
April 4, 2021
The Death of Conservatism
By Denise McAllister

Friedrich Nietzsche's "The Gay Science" contains one of the most famous and haunting quotes of the nineteenth century: "God is dead.  God remains dead.  And we have killed him."  In a cry of prophetic passion, the Madman of the parable challenges those who killed God to accept the consequences of such a brazen act and recognize that they must become like gods "to be worthy of it."

This usurpation of divine authority by man, and thereby rejection of God's order of nature, has seeped into America's social imagination, reshaping what was once implausible about human identity into something plausible, if not obligatory.  Conservatism has not escaped this moral and existential insurrection.  For some time, the conservative movement has been sickened, but now it has reached the point of death.  Now it lies beside God in the graveyard of America's history, for as God goes, so goes conservatism.

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https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2021/04/the_death_of_conservatism.html
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Online bigheadfred

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Re: The Death of Conservatism
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2021, 10:40:21 AM »
It ain't dead It is playing dead.
She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Offline andy58-in-nh

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Re: The Death of Conservatism
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2021, 10:43:40 AM »
To hell with every single one of these bastards who are creating a moral permission slip for anarchists and other criminals and thugs to destroy our country as we know it.

- Rich Lowry, National Review

Online bigheadfred

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Re: The Death of Conservatism
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2021, 10:55:56 AM »
She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Offline andy58-in-nh

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Re: The Death of Conservatism
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2021, 11:02:24 AM »
Is that Mitch Macawnell?

It might be Kevin McCawrthy.
To hell with every single one of these bastards who are creating a moral permission slip for anarchists and other criminals and thugs to destroy our country as we know it.

- Rich Lowry, National Review

Offline skeeter

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Re: The Death of Conservatism
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2021, 11:02:27 AM »
What is the difference between a Conservative and advocate/follower/disciple of the originalists' US Constitution, politically speaking?
« Last Edit: April 04, 2021, 11:03:41 AM by skeeter »

Online bigheadfred

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Re: The Death of Conservatism
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2021, 11:08:47 AM »
What is the difference between a Conservative and advocate/follower/disciple of the originalists' US Constitution, politically speaking?

Toilet paper.
She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Online HoustonSam

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Re: The Death of Conservatism
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2021, 11:16:41 AM »
"Those who deny God's created order and purposes when it comes to human identity, sexual identity, and individuality are no friend to the civil society in the long run.  They will inevitably turn on those who still believe that God is King of this world.  This point has been lost on too many conservatives as they have welcomed haters of God and his moral order not only into their tent, but into their hearts and their minds — a self-deluded treachery of "openness" that has softy sounded the death knell of conservatism in America."

We argue back and forth here about Conservatism, what it means, and whether or not the American people are primarily Conservative.  In my opinion the American people are *not* Conservative because we've fully adopted the pluralistic, un-Conservative idea that belief in and about God is entirely separate from social order.  While the American people will quickly advocate for the desirable results of Conservatism, they continue to vote against Conservatives because the American people are *not* Conservatives; they just want some of the tangible results created by Conservative policies but without the fundamental recognition of what Man is capable of and incapable of.

Many who identify themselves as "Conservatives" argue about the political dimension of Conservatism, which is a mere outcome of a broader set of Conservative principles and ideals.  The farther that political dimension strays from the fundamental Conservative belief in God-created social order, the more powerless and meaningless the political dimension becomes.
James 1:20

Online bigheadfred

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Re: The Death of Conservatism
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2021, 11:22:05 AM »
"Those who deny God's created order and purposes when it comes to human identity, sexual identity, and individuality are no friend to the civil society in the long run.  They will inevitably turn on those who still believe that God is King of this world.  This point has been lost on too many conservatives as they have welcomed haters of God and his moral order not only into their tent, but into their hearts and their minds — a self-deluded treachery of "openness" that has softy sounded the death knell of conservatism in America."

We argue back and forth here about Conservatism, what it means, and whether or not the American people are primarily Conservative.  In my opinion the American people are *not* Conservative because we've fully adopted the pluralistic, un-Conservative idea that belief in and about God is entirely separate from social order.  While the American people will quickly advocate for the desirable results of Conservatism, they continue to vote against Conservatives because the American people are *not* Conservatives; they just want some of the tangible results created by Conservative policies but without the fundamental recognition of what Man is capable of and incapable of.

Many who identify themselves as "Conservatives" argue about the political dimension of Conservatism, which is a mere outcome of a broader set of Conservative principles and ideals.  The farther that political dimension strays from the fundamental Conservative belief in God-created social order, the more powerless and meaningless the political dimension becomes.

They are proving that pretty well.
She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Offline skeeter

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Re: The Death of Conservatism
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2021, 12:12:12 PM »
"Those who deny God's created order and purposes when it comes to human identity, sexual identity, and individuality are no friend to the civil society in the long run.  They will inevitably turn on those who still believe that God is King of this world.  This point has been lost on too many conservatives as they have welcomed haters of God and his moral order not only into their tent, but into their hearts and their minds — a self-deluded treachery of "openness" that has softy sounded the death knell of conservatism in America."

We argue back and forth here about Conservatism, what it means, and whether or not the American people are primarily Conservative.  In my opinion the American people are *not* Conservative because we've fully adopted the pluralistic, un-Conservative idea that belief in and about God is entirely separate from social order.  While the American people will quickly advocate for the desirable results of Conservatism, they continue to vote against Conservatives because the American people are *not* Conservatives; they just want some of the tangible results created by Conservative policies but without the fundamental recognition of what Man is capable of and incapable of.

Many who identify themselves as "Conservatives" argue about the political dimension of Conservatism, which is a mere outcome of a broader set of Conservative principles and ideals.  The farther that political dimension strays from the fundamental Conservative belief in God-created social order, the more powerless and meaningless the political dimension becomes.
As Adams said, our system of government is made for a moral and religious people. Not a conservative people. You may say they’re one in the same and by today’s definition you may be correct. Or maybe not.

But use of the term, like the term Liberal, has become esoteric to the point of confusion and contention among adherents. So much so, IMO, that is now an impediment.

I can sum up my own belief by saying I am a constitutional originalist in my politics and a Christian in my personal life. Dunno what that makes me but it sure makes describing what I believe a lot easier to those who want to know.

« Last Edit: April 04, 2021, 12:14:00 PM by skeeter »

Offline Sled Dog

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Re: The Death of Conservatism
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2021, 12:25:31 PM »
What is the difference between a Conservative and advocate/follower/disciple of the originalists' US Constitution, politically speaking?

Apparently Conservatives aren't much for action.   

The Rodents get out in the street to destroy the country, the conservatives watch them on TV from their living rooms.

American conservatives have become the law-abiding Germans of the 1920's.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2021, 12:26:18 PM by Sled Dog »
The GOP is not the party leadership.  The GOP is the party MEMBERSHIP.   The members need to kick the leaders out if they leaders are going the wrong way.  No coddling allowed.

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Re: The Death of Conservatism
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2021, 12:29:39 PM »
"Those who deny God's created order and purposes when it comes to human identity, sexual identity, and individuality are no friend to the civil society in the long run.  They will inevitably turn on those who still believe that God is King of this world.  This point has been lost on too many conservatives as they have welcomed haters of God and his moral order not only into their tent, but into their hearts and their minds — a self-deluded treachery of "openness" that has softy sounded the death knell of conservatism in America."

We argue back and forth here about Conservatism, what it means, and whether or not the American people are primarily Conservative.  In my opinion the American people are *not* Conservative because we've fully adopted the pluralistic, un-Conservative idea that belief in and about God is entirely separate from social order.  While the American people will quickly advocate for the desirable results of Conservatism, they continue to vote against Conservatives because the American people are *not* Conservatives; they just want some of the tangible results created by Conservative policies but without the fundamental recognition of what Man is capable of and incapable of.

Many who identify themselves as "Conservatives" argue about the political dimension of Conservatism, which is a mere outcome of a broader set of Conservative principles and ideals.  The farther that political dimension strays from the fundamental Conservative belief in God-created social order, the more powerless and meaningless the political dimension becomes.

Except, of course, one does not have to be a religious believer to be an American conservative.

One does not have to hold to a religion to believe that people should have the freedom to practice their religion.

There's that.

So clearly "conservatism" is something outside of religion, even though many devout christians and jews are conservatives.    The Rodents have their religions, too, from Gaia to weird old Uncle Karl Marx.
The GOP is not the party leadership.  The GOP is the party MEMBERSHIP.   The members need to kick the leaders out if they leaders are going the wrong way.  No coddling allowed.

Offline andy58-in-nh

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Re: The Death of Conservatism
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2021, 12:37:02 PM »
Apparently Conservatives aren't much for action.   

The Rodents get out in the street to destroy the country, the conservatives watch them on TV from their living rooms.

American conservatives have become the law-abiding Germans of the 1920's.

We work. They don't.

Or if they do, it's likely as a member of a public-sector union.

Which is to say: they don't.
To hell with every single one of these bastards who are creating a moral permission slip for anarchists and other criminals and thugs to destroy our country as we know it.

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Online HoustonSam

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Re: The Death of Conservatism
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2021, 01:09:27 PM »
As Adams said, our system of government is made for a moral and religious people. Not a conservative people. You may say they’re one in the same and by today’s definition you may be correct. Or maybe not.

But use of the term, like the term Liberal, has become esoteric to the point of confusion and contention among adherents. So much so, IMO, that is now an impediment.

I can sum up my own belief by saying I am a constitutional originalist in my politics and a Christian in my personal life. Dunno what that makes me but it sure makes describing what I believe a lot easier to those who want to know.

Good thoughts @skeeter.  I don't identify myself much as "Conservative" in discussion anymore because the term has become too loosely-defined in American politics.  While I don't object to other people calling me "Conservative", I think the description you offer for your own views is excellent and suits me quite well also.

Regarding Adams' statement, I don't know that "Conservative" was a term in use when he said that.  I believe he said it before Burke wrote, so whatever definition once attached to "Conservative" post-dated Adams I think.  Although we rush to identify the founders as Conservatives I'm not sure they were; they created something revolutionary that later Americans wanted to Conserve.
James 1:20

Offline skeeter

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Re: The Death of Conservatism
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2021, 01:20:04 PM »
Regarding Adams' statement, I don't know that "Conservative" was a term in use when he said that.  I believe he said it before Burke wrote, so whatever definition once attached to "Conservative" post-dated Adams I think.  Although we rush to identify the founders as Conservatives I'm not sure they were; they created something revolutionary that later Americans wanted to Conserve.
This is my point. Everything we consider 'conservative' in the political sense today can be described as fealty to the Constitution as written. Much more concise & identifiable. Describing yourself as a Constitutionalist (with exception of those lunatics who otherwise hate the very idea of the USA) it removes the barriers so often erected inadvertently erected in debate when labels are used.

Online HoustonSam

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Re: The Death of Conservatism
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2021, 01:20:19 PM »
Except, of course, one does not have to be a religious believer to be an American conservative.
......
So clearly "conservatism" is something outside of religion.....

I'm afraid that begs the question.  Americans who call themselves "Conservatives" are generally attempting to perform the separation you describe, but whether or not that will be possible remains to be seen.

Personally I can't think of a unifying principle for Conservatism *other than* God-created social order, which of course assumes belief in God.  Not necessarily Christianity of course, but God, with individuals left to seek Him as they can and tolerance for those who choose to reject belief entirely.  Without that unifying belief, our positions on low taxation, marriage, life, 2A, etc, are a stack of bricks without mortar holding them together.  Some of those non-believers will join us in some of our specific positions, but lacking the mortar those positions are just bricks, not a wall.
James 1:20

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Re: The Death of Conservatism
« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2021, 01:57:33 PM »
Apparently Conservatives aren't much for action.   

The Rodents get out in the street to destroy the country, the conservatives watch them on TV from their living rooms.

American conservatives have become the law-abiding Germans of the 1920's.

Excellent analogy, @Sled Dog

Part-time 'preachers'- full-time 'sheep'.
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Offline Absalom

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Re: The Death of Conservatism
« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2021, 02:37:08 PM »
April 4, 2021 / The Death of Conservatism / Denise McAllister

Friedrich Nietzsche's "The Gay Science" contains one of the most famous and haunting quotes of the nineteenth century: "God is dead.  God remains dead.  And we have killed him."  In a cry of prophetic passion, the Madman of the parable challenges those who killed God to accept the consequence of this brazen act and recognize that they must become like gods "to be worthy of it."

This usurpation of divine authority by man, and thereby rejection of God's order of nature, has seeped into America's social imagination, reshaping what was once implausible about human identity into something plausible, if not obligatory.  Conservatism has not escaped this moral and existential insurrection.  For some time, the conservative movement has been sickened, but now it has reached the point of death.  Now it lies beside God in the graveyard of America's history, for as God goes, so goes conservatism.

------------------------------
A demurral.
In his majestic "Conservative Mind", Russell Kirk, quoting Edmund Burke, asserted that
"Natural Law, derived from Man's Nature, is uncovered thru Logic & Reason and involves
concepts of morality known to all eras, cultures and societies, since the Garden of Eden".
These ideas and thoughts were birthed by the Ancients, among them Sargon and Plato;
later reinforced by Medieval Scholastics, such as Ockham and Scotus.
Principled Conservatism, derived from the Natural Law, is a body of enduring precepts
governing the conduct of Man involving attitudes, behaviors, impulses and sentiments;
independent and separate from economics, politics and religion, each of which it predated
by multiple millennia.   
« Last Edit: April 04, 2021, 11:36:29 PM by Absalom »

Offline Fishrrman

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Re: The Death of Conservatism
« Reply #18 on: April 04, 2021, 05:42:53 PM »
skeeter postulated:
"Everything we consider 'conservative' in the political sense today can be described as fealty to the Constitution as written. Much more concise & identifiable. Describing yourself as a Constitutionalist (with exception of those lunatics who otherwise hate the very idea of the USA) it removes the barriers so often erected inadvertently erected in debate when labels are used."

Calling yourself "a Constitutionalist" before the leftists today is tantamount to stating that you're a white extremist/supremacist.
...As far as they're concerned.

Not sayin' that folks shouldn't do it.
But be aware that when one says as much, that one is defining the side upon which he/she will be expected to fight in the future.

Aside:
I don't call myself "a conservative" any more.
I think of myself more as a "traditional-minded American" who prefers the rules, mores and society of about 1954. And that includes [what you might consider] "the bad" as well as the good...

Offline roamer_1

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Re: The Death of Conservatism
« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2021, 05:50:02 PM »
What is the difference between a Conservative and advocate/follower/disciple of the originalists' US Constitution, politically speaking?

Politically speaking? 3 more factions.

Offline roamer_1

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Re: The Death of Conservatism
« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2021, 06:06:47 PM »
"Those who deny God's created order and purposes when it comes to human identity, sexual identity, and individuality are no friend to the civil society in the long run.


I have been toying with the philosophical mechanics of that, @HoustonSam , and it seems to me that 'society' and its offshoot, 'culture' ... 'civility' if you will, is only there to provide one thing: A safe place for women to raise children. In its very root, that is why man's 'Hell on Wheels' at the head of the tracks must necessarily make way for quiet towns with safe streets... Picket fences flowers, shops, councilmen, constables, and magistrates... That is, in the end, what it is all *FOR* - A safe place for women and children.

If in fact that root dries up, there is nothing left but a predictable collapse, and in fairly short order.

Quote
They will inevitably turn on those who still believe that God is King of this world.  This point has been lost on too many conservatives as they have welcomed haters of God and his moral order not only into their tent, but into their hearts and their minds — a self-deluded treachery of "openness" that has softy sounded the death knell of conservatism in America."

FACTS. Evil spreads not when good men do nothing - but rather, when good men compromise with evil. We are infested with it at every level now - even rural towns, the last bastions of America's heartland.

Quote
We argue back and forth here about Conservatism, what it means, and whether or not the American people are primarily Conservative.  In my opinion the American people are *not* Conservative because we've fully adopted the pluralistic, un-Conservative idea that belief in and about God is entirely separate from social order.  While the American people will quickly advocate for the desirable results of Conservatism, they continue to vote against Conservatives because the American people are *not* Conservatives; they just want some of the tangible results created by Conservative policies but without the fundamental recognition of what Man is capable of and incapable of.

"My people perish for a lack of knowledge."

Quote
Many who identify themselves as "Conservatives" argue about the political dimension of Conservatism, which is a mere outcome of a broader set of Conservative principles and ideals.  The farther that political dimension strays from the fundamental Conservative belief in God-created social order, the more powerless and meaningless the political dimension becomes.

Precisely so. Those who would bend around the 'messy bits' and cherry-pick their hyphenated Conservatism do not understand that political Conservatism is there to keep government from intruding on REAL Conservatism, which is a way of life. Those things that are omitted by their hyphenation are precisely and predictably what government will use to grow, to flourish, and finally, to enslave them.

You can't pick and choose. It is all interwoven.

Good post.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2021, 06:07:43 PM by roamer_1 »

Offline roamer_1

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Re: The Death of Conservatism
« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2021, 06:20:57 PM »
Except, of course, one does not have to be a religious believer to be an American conservative.

One does not have to hold to a religion to believe that people should have the freedom to practice their religion.

There's that.

So clearly "conservatism" is something outside of religion, even though many devout christians and jews are conservatives.    The Rodents have their religions, too, from Gaia to weird old Uncle Karl Marx.

In the end that is necessarily false - And quite the other way around. You are allowed your atheism. It is in fact a fundamental Protestant Christian principle behind that unalienable right. Your free will is given in that. You must come to what you will of your own volition. That has seldom happened before outside of Christian Protestantism.

But that it is allowed you in American Conservatism cannot break the premise of HOW that right is bestowed - That right is unalienable to you because it's cause is endowed beyond all courts of men - in an Higher Court where the fallacies of men dare not tread.

Your rights are !yours! because God gave them to you. We can even argue that it was the Christian God - Yahweh, that put them there... Because no other god is so inclined, as proven in world history.

Remove that, and it is men that endowed you - and that which men give, men can also take away.
A massively important distinction - If omitted,  one is left with nothing but the French 'Rights of Man' and the socialism it inspired.

Offline roamer_1

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Re: The Death of Conservatism
« Reply #22 on: April 04, 2021, 06:31:36 PM »
Regarding Adams' statement, I don't know that "Conservative" was a term in use when he said that.  I believe he said it before Burke wrote, so whatever definition once attached to "Conservative" post-dated Adams I think.  Although we rush to identify the founders as Conservatives I'm not sure they were; they created something revolutionary that later Americans wanted to Conserve.

Conservatism per se is older than Burke - Though I will accept that we get ours through Locke, Kirk, and Burke etc... So in that your observation is likely right. Conservatism in America revolves around the preservation of the Great Experiment. Certainly it does in the political sense. But I think it true in the greater sense as well.

What we know as true is different than what came before - Even more (as the culmination) than Britain and the ancient line of Celtic Common Law from which we have sprung. For we, more than any other in history, have been blessed with God's own liberty.

There was a time, within my lifetime, that would go without saying.

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Re: The Death of Conservatism
« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2021, 07:08:29 PM »
Quote
I can sum up my own belief by saying I am a constitutional originalist in my politics and a Christian in my personal life.

In the time I have spent posting on this forum I do not recall every once characterizing myself as anything other than those things in my personal beliefs @skeeter .
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Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: The Death of Conservatism
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2021, 07:55:30 PM »
FTA:

Quote
The issue here is cultural-moral, where the heart of conservatism once beat.

Quoting Edmund Burke, Kirk says there is a reason conservatives are called "the party of order."  This order is not just external; it starts within the person.  "The twentieth-century conservative is concerned, first of all, for the regeneration of the spirit and character — with the perennial problem of the inner order of the soul, the restoration of the ethical understanding, and the religious sanction upon which any life worth living is founded. This is conservatism at its highest."

If Ms. McAllister were being truthful, she would have entitled her essay: "The Death of Christianity: And Only Christians Are Conservatives". 

A little more from Ms. McAllister today   pointing-down

Quote
Denise McAllister
@McAllisterDen


We need Christians who speak the truth and are willing to put their neck on the block because they know this world is nothing compared to the next. Who are the Pauls? Who are the Peters? Who are the Christians in the pits? Sadly too many fold today out of fear of offense.

6:54 PM · Apr 4, 2021·Twitter Web App
https://twitter.com/McAllisterDen/status/1378843360643985409
"Remember this day forever." -- President Donald J. Trump, January 6, 2021