Author Topic: Saudi Arabia takes steps to lead the $700B global hydrogen market  (Read 942 times)

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Offline thackney

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Saudi Arabia takes steps to lead the $700B global hydrogen market
https://www.worldoil.com/news/2021/3/5/saudi-arabia-takes-steps-to-lead-the-700b-global-hydrogen-market

Sun-scorched expanses and steady Red Sea breezes make the northwest tip of Saudi Arabia prime real estate for what the kingdom hopes will become a global hub for green hydrogen.

As governments and industries seek less-polluting alternatives to hydrocarbons, the world’s biggest crude exporter doesn’t want to cede the burgeoning hydrogen business to China, Europe or Australia and lose a potentially massive source of income. So it’s building a $5 billion plant powered entirely by sun and wind that will be among the world’s biggest green hydrogen makers when it opens in the planned megacity of Neom in 2025....

...Hydrogen is morphing from a niche power source — used in zeppelins, rockets and nuclear weapons — into big business, with the European Union alone committing $500 billion to scale up its infrastructure. Huge obstacles remain to the gas becoming a major part of the energy transition, and skeptics point to Saudi Arabia’s weak track record so far capitalizing on what should be a competitive edge in the renewables business, especially solar, where there are many plans but few operational projects....

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Offline thackney

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Re: Saudi Arabia takes steps to lead the $700B global hydrogen market
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2021, 01:47:03 pm »
Saudi Arabia’s bold plan to rule the $700 billion hydrogen market
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/saudi-arabia/saudi-arabias-bold-plan-to-rule-the-700-billion-hydrogen-market/articleshow/81374199.cms

...Terium, who is Dutch, joined Neom in 2018 to design its energy, water and food networks. His enthusiasm for technologies such as electric vehicles and digital networks wasn’t matched by Innogy’s investors, but it is by the backers of Neom.

The most important of those is Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, the 35-year-old de facto ruler, who envisions Neom as a zero-emissions exemplar helping transform society and the economy. The hydrogen plant is part of that vision. But while Neom’s $500 billion price tag prompts questions about whether it will go ahead exactly as planned, the hydrogen effort doesn’t depend on the megacity’s overall success....

...For starters, Helios will produce 650 tons of hydrogen a day by electrolysis – enough for conversion to 1.2 million tons per year of green ammonia. Air Products will buy all of that ammonia, which is easier to ship than liquid or gaseous hydrogen, and convert it back upon delivery to customers....
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Offline thackney

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Re: Saudi Arabia takes steps to lead the $700B global hydrogen market
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2021, 01:56:19 pm »
Potential Roles of Ammonia in a Hydrogen Economy
https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2015/01/f19/fcto_nh3_h2_storage_white_paper_2006.pdf

...EXECUTIVE SUMMARY...

...Ammonia has a number of favorable attributes, the primary one being its high capacity for
hydrogen storage, 17.6 wt.%, based on its molecular structure. However, in order to release
hydrogen from ammonia, significant energy input as well as reactor mass and volume are
required. Other considerations include safety and toxicity issues, both actual and perceived, as
well as the incompatibility of polymer electrolyte membrane (PEM) fuel cells in the presence of
even trace levels of ammonia (> 0.1ppm).

Given the state of the art in ‘cracking’ ammonia to produce hydrogen, there are many issues in
the on-board use of ammonia similar to those identified for on-board fuel processors.
Specifically, these include: high operating temperature (>500° C); longevity and reliability of
catalysts and other components (at high temperatures and in the presence of impurities); start-up
time (to get the system up to operating temperature); purification requirements (to prevent
ammonia poisoning of fuel cells); complexity of the overall system; energy efficiency (on-board
ammonia would have to be burned in the cracking process); cost (currently ~$100K for 1-3 g
H2/s stationary units); and reactor weight and volume (commercial units with sufficient
throughput currently weigh about 2000-5000 kg and are about 3000-6000 liters in size). Simply
stated, most of the performance parameters of ammonia reactors would need at least two orders
of-magnitude improvements in order to be used on-board commercially viable hydrogen powered
fuel cell vehicles.

Due to the above reasons, DOE does not plan to fund R&D to improve ammonia fuel processing
technologies for use on board light weight vehicles at the present time. However, a distinction
may be made between conventional fuel processing of ammonia (e.g. high temperature, low
efficiency, slow start-up/time response crackers) versus novel approaches to store ammonia and
release its hydrogen content under conditions available on-board PEM fuel cell vehicles....
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Saudi Arabia takes steps to lead the $700B global hydrogen market
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2021, 02:13:10 pm »
This insanity is all driven by the idea that CO2 is somehow damaging the planet. If it is "global warming" they are concerned with, or even "climate change", dumping massive quantities of water vapor into the atmosphere should have even more of an effect than CO2. Think 'lake effect' snow or rain, just without the lake.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Saudi Arabia takes steps to lead the $700B global hydrogen market
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2021, 02:29:41 pm »
This insanity is all driven by the idea that CO2 is somehow damaging the planet. If it is "global warming" they are concerned with, or even "climate change", dumping massive quantities of water vapor into the atmosphere should have even more of an effect than CO2. Think 'lake effect' snow or rain, just without the lake.
Always there is a downside to attempting to outwit what God has provided to benefit man, hydrocarbons.

In this case, the downside may be such a climate catastrophe it could dwarf anything done by hydrocarbon usage.
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Saudi Arabia takes steps to lead the $700B global hydrogen market
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2021, 03:25:30 pm »
Always there is a downside to attempting to outwit what God has provided to benefit man, hydrocarbons.

In this case, the downside may be such a climate catastrophe it could dwarf anything done by hydrocarbon usage.
I wonder what increasing rainfall across the Arabian Peninsula will do in terms of livability. Soaking a mineral soil does not turn it into a garden of Eden, rather a quagmire. Without an organic base, there won't be the 'greening' of the desert regions envisioned, and without controls on erosion offered by that vegetative biomass, the rivers will run with mud. Estuaries will be adversely impacted, as will nearshore environments in the marine waters nearby. Such would lead to unnavigable waterways as they fill with silt and sand. It's a predictable result, and fisheries would suffer as well from increased turbidity in the runoff. That sediment plume could affect the livelihoods of the region, not to mention food supplies.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Joe Wooten

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Re: Saudi Arabia takes steps to lead the $700B global hydrogen market
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2021, 10:18:39 pm »
Hydrogen as an energy source will always be a net loser and nothing can change that. It takes more energy to crack methane or water to make hydrogen than you can get out of it.

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Saudi Arabia takes steps to lead the $700B global hydrogen market
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2021, 10:55:52 pm »
Hydrogen as an energy source will always be a net loser and nothing can change that. It takes more energy to crack methane or water to make hydrogen than you can get out of it.
Sorta the way ethanol works too?
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

BassWrangler

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Re: Saudi Arabia takes steps to lead the $700B global hydrogen market
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2021, 04:03:28 am »
This insanity is all driven by the idea that CO2 is somehow damaging the planet. If it is "global warming" they are concerned with, or even "climate change", dumping massive quantities of water vapor into the atmosphere should have even more of an effect than CO2. Think 'lake effect' snow or rain, just without the lake.

Burning one gallon of gasoline produces one gallon of water (if it were liquid - it's mostly water vapor)

Online Hoodat

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Re: Saudi Arabia takes steps to lead the $700B global hydrogen market
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2021, 04:29:23 am »
I had no idea there was a global hydrogen market.  How are the Saudis going to deliver their hydrogen to European and Chinese buyers?
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Saudi Arabia takes steps to lead the $700B global hydrogen market
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2021, 05:14:49 am »
Burning one gallon of gasoline produces one gallon of water (if it were liquid - it's mostly water vapor)
And most of that runs out the tailpipe or forms pucks of ice on the ground in winter (at this latitude), or even ices up the exhausts in older cars left idling.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline thackney

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Re: Saudi Arabia takes steps to lead the $700B global hydrogen market
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2021, 12:21:25 pm »
I had no idea there was a global hydrogen market.  How are the Saudis going to deliver their hydrogen to European and Chinese buyers?

Saudi Arabia’s bold plan to rule the $700 billion hydrogen market
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/saudi-arabia/saudi-arabias-bold-plan-to-rule-the-700-billion-hydrogen-market/articleshow/81374199.cms

Quote
...For starters, Helios will produce 650 tons of hydrogen a day by electrolysis – enough for conversion to 1.2 million tons per year of green ammonia. Air Products will buy all of that ammonia, which is easier to ship than liquid or gaseous hydrogen, and convert it back upon delivery to customers....

- - - - - - - - - - - -

I believe the economics will only work with governments paying subsidies to justify the high cost over normal hydrogen.
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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Saudi Arabia takes steps to lead the $700B global hydrogen market
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2021, 01:13:35 pm »

I believe the economics will only work with governments paying subsidies to justify the high cost over normal hydrogen.
Translation:

It is a loser financially.
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline thackney

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Re: Saudi Arabia takes steps to lead the $700B global hydrogen market
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2021, 01:20:26 pm »
Translation:

It is a loser financially.

No, lots of products are a financial success while depending on the stupidity of those that pay.
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Online Hoodat

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Re: Saudi Arabia takes steps to lead the $700B global hydrogen market
« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2021, 01:57:41 pm »
Saudi Arabia’s bold plan to rule the $700 billion hydrogen market
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/saudi-arabia/saudi-arabias-bold-plan-to-rule-the-700-billion-hydrogen-market/articleshow/81374199.cms

- - - - - - - - - - - -

I believe the economics will only work with governments paying subsidies to justify the high cost over normal hydrogen.

@thackney , thanks for the info.  I applaud the Saudis here for getting it half right.  From the production end, they are tying the price of hydrogen to the price of electricity instead of the price of natural gas.  This is the ONLY WAY hydrogen becomes economically feasible.  Yet the only way for it to become economically viable is for the price of electricity to fall below the price of natural gas.  The Saudis will have a good setup with cheap land and lots of sunshine and wind.  However, that doesn't make it 'free', especially considering their bargain basement cost of natural gas.

Overlooking the flaws of using ammonia as the transport agent (more on that in a moment), a $5 billion price tag for a plant that only produces 1.2 million tons of ammonia per year is astronomical.  For one-sixth of that cost, you could have a conventional ammonia plant generating the same amount (although there would also be 2.33 million tons of CO2).

Ammonia as a storage agent would require additional electricity to separate out the hydrogen.  The overall purpose of this exercise is to use hydrogen as a way to store electricity.  There is a considerable drop-off in efficiency when ammonia is used instead.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

-Ayn Rand-

Offline thackney

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Re: Saudi Arabia takes steps to lead the $700B global hydrogen market
« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2021, 02:02:14 pm »
Ammonia as a storage agent would require additional electricity to separate out the hydrogen.  The overall purpose of this exercise is to use hydrogen as a way to store electricity.  There is a considerable drop-off in efficiency when ammonia is used instead.

Compressing Hydrogen to a useful volume has a significant energy loss as well.  I have worked on refinery projects with hydrogen.  From that experience I am convinced Hydrogen is a horrible choice for fuel unless Mass is the concern and cost is not (rockets).
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Online Hoodat

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Re: Saudi Arabia takes steps to lead the $700B global hydrogen market
« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2021, 02:21:23 pm »
Compressing Hydrogen to a useful volume has a significant energy loss as well.  I have worked on refinery projects with hydrogen.  From that experience I am convinced Hydrogen is a horrible choice for fuel unless Mass is the concern and cost is not (rockets).

Again, hydrogen should be considered as a means of storing electricity.  It should never be used as a combustible fuel.  This Saudi project wishes to create electricity from solar and wind energy and then store that electricity in the form of hydrogen which can later be converted back into electricity via fuel cells.  The primary problem here is how to deliver the hydrogen from the Saudi Arabia plant to the marketplace.

I envision an economy where hydrogen production is small scale, local, and totally reliant upon electric generation.  There is no electric power line running from Saudi Arabia to China.  So liquifying hydrogen and putting it on a tanker is one way to transfer that electricity.  But I suspect 10-20% of the hydrogen would leak through the steel walls before it arrived.   
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

-Ayn Rand-

BassWrangler

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Re: Saudi Arabia takes steps to lead the $700B global hydrogen market
« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2021, 03:43:46 pm »
Compressing Hydrogen to a useful volume has a significant energy loss as well.  I have worked on refinery projects with hydrogen.  From that experience I am convinced Hydrogen is a horrible choice for fuel unless Mass is the concern and cost is not (rockets).

 I never did understand the push for hydrogen. It seemed like it came from a different group than those pushing for electric vehicles using battery technology.

BassWrangler

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Re: Saudi Arabia takes steps to lead the $700B global hydrogen market
« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2021, 03:45:17 pm »
And most of that runs out the tailpipe or forms pucks of ice on the ground in winter (at this latitude), or even ices up the exhausts in older cars left idling.

Actually mostly is emitted as water vapor just like hydrogen. I'm not advocating for hydrogen, which I think is a terrible idea, just pointing out the absurdity of your comment.

Offline Fishrrman

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Re: Saudi Arabia takes steps to lead the $700B global hydrogen market
« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2021, 09:35:11 pm »
They'll make hydrogen look great for vehicle propulsion.

... Until a few "Hindenburg style" incidents...

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Saudi Arabia takes steps to lead the $700B global hydrogen market
« Reply #20 on: March 09, 2021, 01:32:37 am »
No, lots of products are a financial success while depending on the stupidity of those that pay.
A sucker is born every minute?
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington