Author Topic: Secession Is A Radical Solution That Sadly Doesn’t Seem So Radical Any More  (Read 4151 times)

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Offline Sled Dog

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@Sled Dog

What *I* find interesting is you seem to think posting multiple paragraphs of babble negates a basic truth.

What you are not doing is presenting the proper counterpoint and are instead presenting snide remarks as argument.

A man who enlists in the military has voluntarily associated.   His contract defines when he may voluntarily terminate his voluntary association.

The states voluntarily entered into an association and agreed to a contract that does not permit any voluntary withdrawal at any time.

And you've still failed to cite any place in that contract that permits self-extraction.

Heck, there's no provision for expulsion, either.   Something California should be glad about.
The GOP is not the party leadership.  The GOP is the party MEMBERSHIP.   The members need to kick the leaders out if they leaders are going the wrong way.  No coddling allowed.

Online sneakypete

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What you are not doing is presenting the proper counterpoint and are instead presenting snide remarks as argument.

A man who enlists in the military has voluntarily associated.   His contract defines when he may voluntarily terminate his voluntary association.

The states voluntarily entered into an association and agreed to a contract that does not permit any voluntary withdrawal at any time.

And you've still failed to cite any place in that contract that permits self-extraction.

Heck, there's no provision for expulsion, either.   Something California should be glad about.

@Sled Dog

Once again,"voluntary union".

Granted,Mr.Lincolns war of aggression and the carpetbagging afterwards pretty much destroyed the original agreement along with the south,but might still does NOT "make right".
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Offline The_Reader_David

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The Constitution forbids state secession. 

Actually, it does not.  The military settlement of the (pick your favorite name) War Between the States, Civil War, War of Northern Aggression, forbade it.
And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know what this was all about.

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Actually, it does not.  The military settlement of the (pick your favorite name) War Between the States, Civil War, War of Northern Aggression, forbade it.

@The_Reader_David

The war itself was an illegal invasion of sovereign territory.

They got away with it because they won and nobody has had the stones to call it what it was and offer legislation to nullify it.
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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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What you are not doing is presenting the proper counterpoint and are instead presenting snide remarks as argument.

A man who enlists in the military has voluntarily associated.   His contract defines when he may voluntarily terminate his voluntary association.

The states voluntarily entered into an association and agreed to a contract that does not permit any voluntary withdrawal at any time.

And you've still failed to cite any place in that contract that permits self-extraction.

Heck, there's no provision for expulsion, either.   Something California should be glad about.
I really wonder why you continue to persist in an argument in which you have no defense?

Is there some issue with your capability to assimilate data?
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline Sled Dog

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I really wonder why you continue to persist in an argument in which you have no defense?

Is there some issue with your capability to assimilate data?

Why are you people persisting in prosecuting a process argument when your failure is demonstrably in the realm of facts and reality?

I've presented MY argument.  It's called the Constitution.

You've presented no refutation to the Constitution whatsoever.

Again.  The Constitution requires the Congress to suppress rebellion.   Explain how secession is constitutional when the Constitution requires it's suppression.   Cite the clause of the Constitution you are referencing in your response if you wish to be considered a valid participant in the discussion.

Come on, man.  Get with the program.   Try to hold up your position.   Your ad hom responses aren't cutting it.
The GOP is not the party leadership.  The GOP is the party MEMBERSHIP.   The members need to kick the leaders out if they leaders are going the wrong way.  No coddling allowed.

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Why are you people persisting in prosecuting a process argument when your failure is demonstrably in the realm of facts and reality?

I've presented MY argument.  It's called the Constitution.

You've presented no refutation to the Constitution whatsoever.

Again.  The Constitution requires the Congress to suppress rebellion.   Explain how secession is constitutional when the Constitution requires it's suppression.   Cite the clause of the Constitution you are referencing in your response if you wish to be considered a valid participant in the discussion.

Come on, man.  Get with the program.   Try to hold up your position.   Your ad hom responses aren't cutting it.
For one thing, I do not refute the Constitution.  I uphold it.

And a secession is NOT a rebellion, no matter how many times you say it is.

When one enters into a contract, in this case the Constitution in which the sovereign country of Texas voluntarily did when it agreed to enter the Union under the terms of the Constitution, both parties have the obligation to honor the terms of the contract.

It does not condemn a state like Texas to endure an abrogation of that contract.  Texas freely joined the Union and can freely leave the Union.

There really is nothing that the US can do about it should the citizens of Texas decided to leave.

So go ahead and continue spouting off all the ridiculous reasons you feel otherwise.  Perhaps that makes you feel good about your self.
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Offline DefiantMassRINO

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There may not be a 'hard' succession, but, there is the possibility of a 'soft' seccession - a weak, ineffectual Federal Government that necessitates that states exercise more independence, self-reliance, and regionalism for state and local governments to function.  We saw this with Covid and the Northeast states.
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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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There may not be a 'hard' succession, but, there is the possibility of a 'soft' seccession - a weak, ineffectual Federal Government that necessitates that states exercise more independence, self-reliance, and regionalism for state and local governments to function.  We saw this with Covid and the Northeast states.
Not a bad idea.

The power of the federal government makes it difficult as it can step in and unconstitutionally stop state efforts to assert its sovereignty, as has been done time and time again.

That strategy would be best deployed by a union of concerned states rather than in isolation.
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Online sneakypete

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There may not be a 'hard' succession, but, there is the possibility of a 'soft' seccession - a weak, ineffectual Federal Government that necessitates that states exercise more independence, self-reliance, and regionalism for state and local governments to function.  We saw this with Covid and the Northeast states.

@DefiantMassRINO

True. Let's hope that is what happens,anyhow.
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Offline libertybele

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The Constitution forbids state secession.  Individuals have the freedom to secede.  But they can't take their land with them.   When the person secedes, he announces it by LEAVING the country.

Secession won't be allowed by the Rodents, hence war.

The seceding states will still have their internal Rodents along with them.  Montana keeps electing Rodent senators, even though they voted Trump.

Where in the Constitution does it forbid states from secession?

 The  10th amendment states ; The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

I would also call your attention to the Declaration of Independence which I feel gives a backdrop for secession.  We are a "free" people ... "WE the PEOPLE" are the government.  There was a need to break away from Britain and consequently one of the greatest nation's on earth was formed.

"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation."

Romans 12:16-21

Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly, do not claim to be wiser than you are.  Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all.  If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all…do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Offline Fishrrman

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Libertybele has it right in reply 35 above. She wins the thread.

And as I've said before, it's time for a "New Continental Congress" of the traditional-freedom states, meeting with no particular goal in mind other than to discuss what's happening to DC and the country, and perhaps come to ideas as to what's to be done about it.

Online sneakypete

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Libertybele has it right in reply 35 above. She wins the thread.

And as I've said before, it's time for a "New Continental Congress" of the traditional-freedom states, meeting with no particular goal in mind other than to discuss what's happening to DC and the country, and perhaps come to ideas as to what's to be done about it.

@Fishrrman   @libertybele

Yup! Can't argue with that one!

Not that I am the argumentative type,mind you.
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Offline Sled Dog

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The whole thrust of the last 160 years of federal history is the strengthening of the federal government at the expense of state and individual liberties.

There is no chance, none whatsoever, of there ever being anything like this so-called "soft" secession.

There's also no chance of any other form of secession working, either, but what the hell, cultists have to cult, don't they?

Since there are people who want to dig a hole and pull it in after them, no matter how badly they are needed to fight the Rodents, there is going to be that useless segment of the population that is going to leave the good fight to the good people.    Freeloaders exist where they're least expected, don't they?
The GOP is not the party leadership.  The GOP is the party MEMBERSHIP.   The members need to kick the leaders out if they leaders are going the wrong way.  No coddling allowed.

Offline Sled Dog

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For one thing, I do not refute the Constitution.  I uphold it.

And a secession is NOT a rebellion, no matter how many times you say it is.


Oh, for Pete's sake.   What is wrong with these people, anyway?   Words mean things.  They don't mean things people who are using them incorrectly do not like because those meanings torpedo their arguments.

Rebellion:
1. An act or state of armed, open resistance to authority, government, etc.
2. a defiance of or opposition to any control.
3. a rebelling
syn: insurrection, sedition, revolt, mutiny, resistance, contumacy, anarchy, revolution.

Secession:
a going apart, separation.
1. an act of seceding; formal withdrawal or separation,
2. the withdrawal of a State from the Federal Union,
3. the act of withdrawing from fellowship and communion.

Webster's New Encyclopedic Dictionary of the English Language, Unabridged 1977.   Damn thing weight 10 pounds, has more than 3000 pages, and cost me $1.75.   Thanks for the workout.  I always like the opportunity to dig into the thing.  Makes my investment worth while.

Raise your hands, people. 

Who thinks the fantasy secession that isn't going to happen anyway is going to peaceful and full of brotherly love and Christian fellowship?

Right.

So the secession would be VIOLENT.

Which automatically makes it a "rebellion".

Or don't you people study American history? 
The GOP is not the party leadership.  The GOP is the party MEMBERSHIP.   The members need to kick the leaders out if they leaders are going the wrong way.  No coddling allowed.

Offline Sled Dog

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Where in the Constitution does it forbid states from secession?

 The  10th amendment states ; The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

I would also call your attention to the Declaration of Independence which I feel gives a backdrop for secession.  We are a "free" people ... "WE the PEOPLE" are the government.  There was a need to break away from Britain and consequently one of the greatest nation's on earth was formed.

"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation."

See post #6.

Since the Congress is explicitly directed to suppress rebellion, rebellion is not one of the rights reserved to the States under Amendments 9 or 10.

The Constitution is the law of the land. 

The poetry of the Declaration of Independence is not in itself a law, and the people that signed the DoI mostly wrote and ratified the Constitution that made rebellion illegal for the states.

Like I've been saying, the People, as individuals, can secede, by leaving.   They can take their cash with them, but not their land.  Their land is covered by the laws of their state and the state is covered by federal law.

Again, I'll repeat.

The act of secession withdraws from the people of a state the protections promised to those citizens under the Constitution, and there is no provision in the Constitution granting any state the authority to abrogate the rights of the citizens without a criminal trial for each citizen so proscribed.   

« Last Edit: March 06, 2021, 06:38:06 am by Sled Dog »
The GOP is not the party leadership.  The GOP is the party MEMBERSHIP.   The members need to kick the leaders out if they leaders are going the wrong way.  No coddling allowed.

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So the secession would be VIOLENT.

 

@Sled Dog

Has there ever been one that wasn't?

That IS,in fact,the reason why rebellion should never be suggested casually. It is a VERY serious thing with very serious consequences for a lot of people,which is why it is rare except for in the most extreme cases.

Even the Russians understood this when they overthrew Communism,which was no small thing. In fact,I seriously doubt there has ever been a nation THAT powerful with that many people under their thumbs,and ended with so few deaths and so little destruction.

Seems to me that if a formal police state like the USSR can find a way to change virtually EVERYTHING in their legal code without massive bloodshed and fighting in the streets,we should be able to do the same right here in the US.
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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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The whole thrust of the last 160 years of federal history is the strengthening of the federal government at the expense of state and individual liberties.

There is no chance, none whatsoever, of there ever being anything like this so-called "soft" secession.

There's also no chance of any other form of secession working, either, but what the hell, cultists have to cult, don't they?

Since there are people who want to dig a hole and pull it in after them, no matter how badly they are needed to fight the Rodents, there is going to be that useless segment of the population that is going to leave the good fight to the good people.    Freeloaders exist where they're least expected, don't they?
If people held those beliefs 250 years ago, we would have never held fast against Britain and created this great country we call America.

Those who choose freedom rather than servitude will continue to fight, regardless of those who meekly submit.
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Oh, for Pete's sake.   What is wrong with these people, anyway?   Words mean things.  They don't mean things people who are using them incorrectly do not like because those meanings torpedo their arguments.

Rebellion:
1. An act or state of armed, open resistance to authority, government, etc.
2. a defiance of or opposition to any control.
3. a rebelling
syn: insurrection, sedition, revolt, mutiny, resistance, contumacy, anarchy, revolution.

Secession:
a going apart, separation.
1. an act of seceding; formal withdrawal or separation,
2. the withdrawal of a State from the Federal Union,
3. the act of withdrawing from fellowship and communion.

Webster's New Encyclopedic Dictionary of the English Language, Unabridged 1977.   Damn thing weight 10 pounds, has more than 3000 pages, and cost me $1.75.   Thanks for the workout.  I always like the opportunity to dig into the thing.  Makes my investment worth while.

Raise your hands, people. 

Who thinks the fantasy secession that isn't going to happen anyway is going to peaceful and full of brotherly love and Christian fellowship?

Right.

So the secession would be VIOLENT.

Which automatically makes it a "rebellion".

Or don't you people study American history?
You should have studied American history more closely.

The War of Union Aggression began when the Union sent a military contingent to overtly threaten a southern state.  Not a rebellion if one uses arms in self defense.

Rather than submit meekly, the Confederate strategists chose to strike first.

Freedom is never meek, and only fools would not take advantage to prevent being destroyed by bullies.

Yeah, you just like to pump yourself up with self accolades of undeserved smartness on your knowledge, but demonstrate a decided weakness in so doing.  Bad $1.75 investment.
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline Sled Dog

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@Sled Dog

Has there ever been one that wasn't?


Right.

Which is why it's a rebellion.

And the Constitution forbids rebellion.

Duh.

The GOP is not the party leadership.  The GOP is the party MEMBERSHIP.   The members need to kick the leaders out if they leaders are going the wrong way.  No coddling allowed.

Offline Sled Dog

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You should have studied American history more closely.

The War of Union Aggression began when the Union sent a military contingent to overtly threaten a southern state.  Not a rebellion if one uses arms in self defense.

Rather than submit meekly, the Confederate strategists chose to strike first.

Freedom is never meek, and only fools would not take advantage to prevent being destroyed by bullies.

Yeah, you just like to pump yourself up with self accolades of undeserved smartness on your knowledge, but demonstrate a decided weakness in so doing.  Bad $1.75 investment.


Honest historians call that the US Civil War.

The Civil War started when the rebels fired upon Fort Sumter, a federal possession in Charleston Harbor.  Even the island the fort was built on was constructed using federal dollars.

Why do you hate the Constitution?  What did it ever do to you, sitting there in it's helium filled glass case?

Your twisting of history is as equally vile as what the Rodents do.

You should ask yourself why I can buy good history books and references at such low prices.   This fact is an indication that reality is being devalued in the US at the present, and has been for a long time.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2021, 03:43:42 pm by Sled Dog »
The GOP is not the party leadership.  The GOP is the party MEMBERSHIP.   The members need to kick the leaders out if they leaders are going the wrong way.  No coddling allowed.

Offline Sled Dog

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If people held those beliefs 250 years ago, we would have never held fast against Britain and created this great country we call America.

Those who choose freedom rather than servitude will continue to fight, regardless of those who meekly submit.

Why are you people so unhappy that an honest man is telling you your fantasies of secession are illegal on their face?

Why are you people so unhappy that someone is pointing out that secession aka "fights for independence" are not only always violent but usually quite unsuccessful?  And even when the split or revolution succeeds on it's face, the people who forced the split almost always wind up with a worse tyranny than they started with.  CF Russian Revolution, French Revolution, Cuba, China, South America, South Africa, Weimar Republic.

There's nothing to indicate that if a bunch of fools ripped the US apart and attempted to form a new nation that the final product would be better.   History says most likely not.

How did things turn out for the Southern secesh?  Most of them lost their property, some of them their lives.  They had no sacred honor to lose.

Y'all need to put down those Kurt Schlichter fantasy novels and confront reality.   The Rodents WANT you people to fake up a secession.   That gives Duke Nuke'm a chance to play political hero again.

And you simply cannot count on today's military to refrain from shooting you.   West Point has been graduating open commies.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2021, 03:46:05 pm by Sled Dog »
The GOP is not the party leadership.  The GOP is the party MEMBERSHIP.   The members need to kick the leaders out if they leaders are going the wrong way.  No coddling allowed.

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Right.

Which is why it's a rebellion.

And the Constitution forbids rebellion.

Duh.

@Sled Dog

"DUH",yersef. It would be UNCONSTITUTIONAL for the Constitution to forbid rebellion. "When there comes a time that in the hearts of men......"
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Offline Sled Dog

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@Sled Dog

"DUH",yersef. It would be UNCONSTITUTIONAL for the Constitution to forbid rebellion. "When there comes a time that in the hearts of men......"


Which came first, the egg or the Constitution?

Answer:  Not the Declaration of Independence.

Which is the law of the land?

Answer: Not the Declaration of Independence.

The GOP is not the party leadership.  The GOP is the party MEMBERSHIP.   The members need to kick the leaders out if they leaders are going the wrong way.  No coddling allowed.

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Quote
Honest hithestorians call that the US Civil War.

The Civil War started when the rebels fired upon Fort Sumter,


@Sled Dog

You couldn't be more ass-backwards if you tried. After SC declared themselves to no longer be a part of the United States (You DID get taught the part about SC being one of the "volunteer union states",right),the Yankee troops no longer had a right to be there,and they had refused to leave after being ordered to leave.

They were armed invaders refusing to leave,so they were fired upon.
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