Gov. Abbott: Blame outages on power generators

[thackney]

(1)That wasn't the point. 

But it should be if you are blaming him and think he should not be supported in the future because of this.

(2) Good leaders lead and have ready solutions to problems...  not point fingers.

Yep, but some situation have little in good solutions.  As for pointing fingers, that is exactly what I see most on this forum doing, with little understanding of the real cause of the problems.

(3) Good leaders would have surrounded themselves with people with the vision to forsee disasterous scenarios, and plan for contingencies and preventive measures.

Yep.  And let us go back to the question: What different result in this specific situation do you expect? 

More government regulations and more expense based on to the rate payer?  Is that your desire?

[thackney]

One of the governor's major responsibilities is to make appointments and if they turn out to be good ones he looks good and if they turn out to be bad he looks bad as well.

That is always reality.  But I expect conservatives to react and support/reject politicians based upon reality, not emotions.  Maybe my expectations are too high.

If the appointments are bad, what specific actions and by who, should have been different?

I did not like the results of Hurricane Harvey either.  But in reality, the only person I really expected to have performed better was myself.

[catfish1957]

More government regulations and more expense based on to the rate payer?  Is that your desire?

If it was not wasted, and spent directly to infrastructure that would improve grid reliability say double or triple?

Damn right I wouldn't mind paying a rate increase.

[Bigun]

That is always reality.  But I expect conservatives to react and support/reject politicians based upon reality, not emotions.  Maybe my expectations are too high.

If the appointments are bad, what specific actions and by who, should have been different?

I did not like the results of Hurricane Harvey either.  But in reality, the only person I really expected to have performed better was myself.

Econ 101: If you are in the electrical power generation business you should know that you cannot sell the power you cannot generate and therefore you should do whatever is necessary to make sure you can generate under all conditions.  It appears that was not done in many cases so put it down to bad management.

Individual liberty and personnel responsibility are inextricably linked. You cannot have one without the other and that applies to businesses as well.

[thackney]

If it was not wasted, and spent directly to infrastructure that would improve grid reliability say double or triple?

Damn right I wouldn't mind paying a rate increase.

My opinion, and only that, government would pass a regulation, say your equipment is required to be permitted, it must operate down to 20°F or some other number.

Gas wells, Gas Plants, Gas pipelines, Gas Power plants, wind turbines, nuke plants, substations, etc are then all required to be built to this standard, no grandfather clause, maybe 5 years to complete the work.  Verification by registered professional engineer providing design specs, drawings, etc.

We would get 40~80% compliance I suspect.  a quarter of so of that would not work, either from not following the design, bad design, or more often, some little piece that was still required was missed.

There would be a significant number that would fake the verification.  I suspect the average public would be shocked by how much.

There was a huge amount of dollars to be made this week if you could deliver gas or electricity to either "spot" market.  I'm talking often 100 times greater than normal price, and up.  That alone is going to cause a good number of companies at all levels to make some improvements.

But if you read the reports from what happened in 2011, it is the same crap as before, just more widespread and bigger numbers, but all the same problems.

Report on Outages and Curtailments During the Southwest Cold Weather Event of February 1-5, 2011
https://www.ferc.gov/sites/default/files/2020-04/08-16-11-report.pdf

[thackney]

Econ 101: If you are in the electrical power generation business you should know that you cannot sell the power you cannot generate and therefore you should do whatever is necessary to make sure you can generate under all conditions.  It appears that was not done in many cases so put it down to bad management.

Individual liberty and personnel responsibility are inextricably linked. You cannot have one without the other and that applies to businesses as well.

Econ 201 says you don't spend $100 dollars to make $50 1 week out of every 10 years.  This applies to most of the situation this week.

[Bigun]

Econ 201 says you don't spend $100 dollars to make $50 1 week out of every 10 years.  This applies to most of the situation this week.

Econ 301: Past performance is no indicator of the future. Not preparing for all contingencies is just plain irresponsible IMHO.

Or, as my dear departed grandmother pounded into my head, "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure."  Having to repair damage from incidents that could have been prevented seems silly to me.

[Idiot]

My opinion, and only that, government would pass a regulation, say your equipment is required to be permitted, it must operate down to 20°F or some other number.

Gas wells, Gas Plants, Gas pipelines, Gas Power plants, wind turbines, nuke plants, substations, etc are then all required to be built to this standard, no grandfather clause, maybe 5 years to complete the work.  Verification by registered professional engineer providing design specs, drawings, etc.

We would get 40~80% compliance I suspect.  a quarter of so of that would not work, either from not following the design, bad design, or more often, some little piece that was still required was missed.

There would be a significant number that would fake the verification.  I suspect the average public would be shocked by how much.

There was a huge amount of dollars to be made this week if you could deliver gas or electricity to either "spot" market.  I'm talking often 100 times greater than normal price, and up.  That alone is going to cause a good number of companies at all levels to make some improvements.

But if you read the reports from what happened in 2011, it is the same crap as before, just more widespread and bigger numbers, but all the same problems.

Report on Outages and Curtailments During the Southwest Cold Weather Event of February 1-5, 2011
https://www.ferc.gov/sites/default/files/2020-04/08-16-11-report.pdf

Are you serious? Gas wells required to have insulated pipe?  Yeah right...at $3 an mcf...yeah that would be economical....NOT!

Most of our transportation lines are run on top of the ground and most of that is solid rock.  This was a 1-100 year event.  Just like a hurricane....  Things happen...  Besides, with global warming this will never happen again...lololol.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

What different result in this specific situation do you expect with a different governor?  How would it be different this week?

Rather than answering directly, I will simply relate the composition of the current PUC board, all appointed by Greg Abbott and ask the question:  Do careers in law and politics qualify someone to understand and decide what to do about complex operational technical issues such as involved in protection of our electric grid?

Do you believe Greg Abbott could have selected someone competent in these operational issues instead of selecting his buddies?

BTW, I might send in a request to nominate you @thackney for one of the new positions which will most certainly be opening up soon.

Chairman DeAnn T. Walker - Law degree, worked as Asst general counsel for Greg Abbott
Commissioner Arthur C. D'Andrea - Lawyer and former Asst general counsel for Greg Abbott
Commissioner Shelly Botkin - Anthropology degree, worked as political aide for two state senators
http://www.puc.texas.gov/

[thackney]

Econ 301: Past performance is no indicator of the future. Not preparing for all contingencies is just plain irresponsible IMHO.

Or, as my dear departed grandmother pounded into my head, "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure."  Having to repair damage from incidents that could have been prevented seems silly to me.

If you think your crystal ball is crystal clear, go ahead and spend those dollars.

I've found mine to be rather clouding and thinking I can predict anything that will happen for ALL contingencies is rather silly.

Back to Econ 201

[thackney]

Are you serious? Gas wells required to have insulated pipe?  Yeah right...at $3 an mcf...yeah that would be economical....NOT!

Most of our transportation lines are run on top of the ground and most of that is solid rock.  This was a 1-100 year event.  Just like a hurricane....  Things happen...  Besides, with global warming this will never happen again...lololol.

What is the gas price in Canada?  They produce gas.

And the reality after all those demanding the government "DO SOMETHING" should expect to pay higher prices.

Same as those buying a house that prevents the pipes from freezing during an event that happens once or twice in their lifetime.

I'm with you brother.  The only person I expect to do something following this event is myself, to be better prepared.  I with others thought the same.

[Bigun]

Are you serious? Gas wells required to have insulated pipe?  Yeah right...at $3 an mcf...yeah that would be economical....NOT!

I don't think that is what is being discussed here. What I'm saying is that $100.00 spent hardening plants against freezing will pay many times that in returns over the long term.  It seems that my friend @thackney and I have a fundamental disagreement on that point which is not a problem as far as I'm concerned.

[Idiot]

I will never vote for Abbott for anything ever again.

Of course it was Abbot's fault that cold came down from the Arctic.  Just like it was Bush's fault Katrina destroyed New Orleans and Trump caused Covid.  Come on man!...lol

[thackney]

Rather than answering directly, I will simply relate the composition of the current ERCOT board, all appointed by Greg Abbott and ask the question:  Do careers in law and politics qualify someone to understand and decide what to do about complex operational technical issues such as involved in protection of our electric grid?

Do you believe Greg Abbott could have selected someone competent in these operational issues instead of selecting his buddies?

BTW, I might send in a request to nominate you @thackney for one of the new positions which will most certainly be opening up soon.

Chairman DeAnn T. Walker - Law degree, worked as Asst general counsel for Greg Abbott
Commissioner Arthur C. D'Andrea - Lawyer and former Asst general counsel for Greg Abbott
Commissioner Shelly Botkin - Anthropology degree, worked as political aide for two state senators
http://www.puc.texas.gov/

You jest.  That is a political position, doing political work.  I would not consider such a junk job.  I work in the mud just to avoid going to meetings with real technical content.

p.s.  I suspect most years that job would be a pay cut

https://www.zippia.com/electric-reliability-council-of-texas-careers-1345941/salary/

[IsailedawayfromFR]

You jest.  That is a political position, doing political work.  I would not consider such a junk job.  I work in the mud just to avoid going to meetings with real technical content.

Nope, Abbott has a political position.

He appoints people under him who are supposed to understand something about what they are involved in.

I saw this firsthand when I lived in the New Orleans area and the composition of Levee Boards, all political patronage positions, without experience in dealing with what they were supposed to govern.

And we all saw the results of that following Katrina.

[mystery-ak]

Pelosi says House panel to investigate Texas winter power outages
https://thehill.com/homenews/house/539415-pelosi-says-house-panel-to-investigate-texas-winter-power-outages

[thackney]

I don't think that is what is being discussed here. What I'm saying is that $100.00 spent hardening plants against freezing will pay many times that in returns over the long term.  It seems that my friend @thackney and I have a fundamental disagreement on that point which is not a problem as far as I'm concerned.

Then it is clear you do not understand the entire supply chain was the problem this week. 

Gas Power plants don't run without every system working at those temperatures.

Gas Power plants don't run without fuel.

Gas Pipelines don't delivery fuel without the compressor stations running.

Gas Pipelines don't get gas without the Gas Plants operating to separate gas, NG liquids, water, etc.

Gas Plants don't get gas without the gathering lines delivering gas.

Gas gathering lines don't get gas without the well delivering gas.

Every single step of the process had significant outages, intentionally or not.

If you don't change every step, the process will not work.

And this applies to every other method of power generation, but few have as many interrelated steps that have to run continuous for sustained operation.

[Bigun]

Then it is clear you do not understand the entire supply chain was the problem this week. 

Gas Power plants don't run without every system working at those temperatures.

Gas Power plants don't run without fuel.

Gas Pipelines don't delivery fuel without the compressor stations running.

Gas Pipelines don't get gas without the Gas Plants operating to separate gas, NG liquids, water, etc.

Gas Plants don't get gas without the gathering lines delivering gas.

Gas gathering lines don't get gas without the well delivering gas.

Every single step of the process had significant outages, intentionally or not.

If you don't change every step, the process will not work.

And this applies to every other method of power generation, but few have as many interrelated steps that have to run continuous for sustained operation.

I understand ALL of that quite well as I worked in that industry for many years. 

I SERIOUSLY doubt that gas gathering was/is a major part of the problem we are currently facing. I suspect that the problems mostly occurred downstream of that at separation and treatment facilities, compressor stations, and the generation facilities themselves. I find that unacceptable.  you obviously disagree with me on that.

[thackney]

I understand ALL of that quite well as I worked in that industry for many years. 

I SERIOUSLY doubt that gas gathering was/is a major part of the problem we are currently facing. I suspect that the problems mostly occurred downstream of that at separation and treatment facilities, compressor stations, and the generation facilities themselves. I find that unacceptable.  you obviously disagree with me on that.

Then you did not pay attention to @mrpotatohead

...As for the clueless people who wonder why gas/oil wells were shut in...  We shut ALL of our production in before the freeze, because we have waaaay too much equipment to put at risk of being destroyed.  What idiot would risk their equipment for the pitiful price we receive for the product?

[Bigun]

Then you did not pay attention to @mrpotatohead

Which came first the chicken or the egg?  You cannot tell me that those separation facilities cannot be hardened against cold weather because I KNOW DAMNED WELL THEY CAN BE. I've done it.  Do they shut-in production in Canada, Alaska, North Dakota, South Dakota, and every other cold place in the world just because it's cold outside?

I'm not suggesting that anything be mandated, I'm just saying that if I were the one running any of the affected facilities this would not have happened in that facility.

[thackney]

Which came first the chicken or the egg?  You cannot tell me that those separation facilities cannot be hardened against cold weather because I KNOW DAMNED WELL THEY CAN BE. I've done it.  Do they shut-in production in Canada, Alaska, North Dakota, South Dakota, and every other cold place in the world just because it's cold outside?

I'm not suggesting that anything be mandated, I'm just saying that if I were the one running any of the affected facilities this would not have happened.

I have said no such thing.  I worked on the Alaskan North Slope for years in Oil and Gas Production.  I know it can be done.

Where have I said any such thing that insinuated it could not be done?  Go back read my words and tell me where you think I meant that.

The only reason it is not typically done here is cost.

But it does not solve the problem to fix the separation facility for the cold and still shutdown the wells, or any other part of the process.

[Bigun]

I have said no such thing.  I worked on the Alaskan North Slope for years in Oil and Gas Production.  I know it can be done.

Where have I said any such thing that insinuated it could not be done?  Go back read my words and tell me where you think I meant that.

The only reason it is not typically done here is cost.

But it does not solve the problem to fix the separation facility for the cold and still shutdown the wells, or any other part of the process.

And I think those costs would be money well spent where you do not and I have said that very thing repeatedly now. 

We are talking past each other now.

[thackney]

And I think those costs would be money well spent where you do not and I have said that very thing repeatedly now. 

I hope many companies think like you.  I can use the work.  Trying to convince our primary client that has lots of Gas Plants around Texas and Oklahoma the same.

I have not made any claims the money would or would not be well spent.  I am only pointing out that many of the companies in the business already decided it was not in the best interest.  I hope they change their minds.  I believe some of them already have, I hope more of them do.

We are talking past each other now.

From my point, it looks like you keep arguing with things I have not written.  But I've been wrong before, will be again, after all I'm married with kids.

[Bigun]

I hope many companies think like you.  I can use the work.  Trying to convince our primary client that has lots of Gas Plants around Texas and Oklahoma the same.

I have not made any claims the money would or would not be well spent.  I am only pointing out that many of the companies in the business already decided it was not in the best interest.  I hope they change their minds.  I believe some of them already have, I hope more of them do.

From my point, it looks like you keep arguing with things I have not written.  But I've been wrong before, will be again, after all I'm married with kids.

LOL! So am I! Although all of mine are all grown up and not currently calling home for money!

I fully understand the conflict between getting money approved for a project and getting what is actually needed to be built.  I have experienced that many times and I've seen the result of that false economy in practice.  The local maintenance guys wind up spending many times over what it would have cost to do it right in the first place.

(Do you remember those old FRAM oil filter commercials: "You can pay me now or pay him later"?)

[thackney]

...Officials for the Electric Reliability Council of Texas, which manages most of Texas’ grid, said the primary cause of the outages Tuesday appeared to be the state’s natural gas providers. Many are not designed to withstand such low temperatures on equipment or during production.

By some estimates, nearly half of the state’s natural gas production has screeched to a halt due to the extremely low temperatures, while freezing components at natural gas-fired power plants have forced some operators to shut down....

https://www.texastribune.org/2021/02/16/natural-gas-power-storm/