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Online DCPatriot

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I Have To Ask....
« on: November 24, 2020, 05:44:22 PM »
I Have To Ask....

Tuned in to the History Channel on my television to watch AGAINST THE ODDS - 46 DAYS IN FALLUJAH

Really heartbreaking to watch, as I was never in the military. 
A house to house search and fight 24,000 homes/buildings to ferret out the 'Insurgents'.

There were two battles of Fallujah.  After the success of the 1st battle, where our troops made it to the center of the city, General "Mad Dog" Mattis said, "Okay, let's finish this!"

However, inexplicably the Americans were told to retreat.

They returned 6 months later on November 6th, 2004 and attacked from the North edge of the city.  Many were KIA and many more suffered from life-changing wounds.

Error 404 (Not Found)!!1


WHY?

Why weren't leaflets dropped giving them the opportunity to vacate by a specific time? 
Why then, wasn't the entire city flattened, where no pile of bricks was higher than 3ft high?

I just don't understand the reasoning behind this?  For what?  To save Iraqi lives??  Eff that.

Seems to me that if one can justify dropping an Atomic Bomb on 2 Japanese cities "...to save 2 million Japanese and American lives", then why weren't the remaining citizens of Fallujah sacrificed to save American lives?

I mean... WHAT THE F*CK??

@txradioguy  @sneakypete  @Bigun @rangerrebew

You guys are the only servicemen who I'm aware of here on the forum.

Please explain this strategy?

What is the sense of having all this weapons superiority if you're afraid to use it?  Why kill our best and bravest for some shithole Middle Eastern city?





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Online txradioguy

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Re: I Have To Ask....
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2020, 06:19:56 PM »
@DCPatriot IMHO the most obvious reasons are twofold the way I look at it.

1) The second battle came just 5 days after the 2004 Presidential election.

2) The second battle had different commanders and a different mix of forces.

The first battle was straight up U.S. forces top to bottom.  The Marines famously gave people 24 hours to get out of town and Fallujah was a free fire zone agree that.

The second battle had British and Iraqi troops as part of the order of battle.  The Iraqi Army at this point was in its infancy at this point and wasn't a very seasoned or trained fighting force.  The Brits, have always IMO had a different philosophy in engaging the enemy.  Not that they are wrong and not saying they don't have the same end result...they just have different styles that get them to the same objective.

Perfect example of that is Patton vs. Montgomery in WWII.

Plus you have to understand that even within our own branches of military...different leaders have different philophosipies on conducting combat operations, how to lead the troops etc etc.

One simple thing like a change of command can shift the entire command philosophy and strategy on how to engage the enemy.  Sometimes it goes off with out a hitch and is very seamless...other times...not so much.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

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Online DCPatriot

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Re: I Have To Ask....
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2020, 06:24:14 PM »
@DCPatriot IMHO the most obvious reasons are twofold the way I look at it.

1) The second battle came just 5 days after the 2004 Presidential election.

2) The second battle had different commanders and a different mix of forces.

The first battle was straight up U.S. forces top to bottom.  The Marines famously gave people 24 hours to get out of town and Fallujah was a free fire zone agree that.

The second battle had British and Iraqi troops as part of the order of battle.  The Iraqi Army at this point was in its infancy at this point and wasn't a very seasoned or trained fighting force.  The Brits, have always IMO had a different philosophy in engaging the enemy.  Not that they are wrong and not saying they don't have the same end result...they just have different styles that get them to the same objective.

Perfect example of that is Patton vs. Montgomery in WWII.

Plus you have to understand that even within our own branches of military...different leaders have different philophosipies on conducting combat operations, how to lead the troops etc etc.

One simple thing like a change of command can shift the entire command philosophy and strategy on how to engage the enemy.  Sometimes it goes off with out a hitch and is very seamless...other times...not so much.

This documentary was riveting, @txradioguy   The brotherhood among the guys, yet they said you had no time to cry or dwell on fallen friends.

Me?   I would have simply destroyed the entire city without losing a man.  Long distance drone strikes works for me.

Thank you for your service and sacrifice!   :patriot:
"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

"Journalism is about covering the news.  With a pillow.  Until it stops moving."    - Iowahawk

Violence is NEVER the answer.  Violence is how you GET the answer.

Online sneakypete

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Re: I Have To Ask....
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2020, 06:29:11 PM »
I Have To Ask....

Tuned in to the History Channel on my television to watch AGAINST THE ODDS - 46 DAYS IN FALLUJAH

Really heartbreaking to watch, as I was never in the military. 
A house to house search and fight 24,000 homes/buildings to ferret out the 'Insurgents'.

There were two battles of Fallujah.  After the success of the 1st battle, where our troops made it to the center of the city, General "Mad Dog" Mattis said, "Okay, let's finish this!"

However, inexplicably the Americans were told to retreat.

They returned 6 months later on November 6th, 2004 and attacked from the North edge of the city.  Many were KIA and many more suffered from life-changing wounds.

Error 404 (Not Found)!!1


WHY?

Why weren't leaflets dropped giving them the opportunity to vacate by a specific time? 
Why then, wasn't the entire city flattened, where no pile of bricks was higher than 3ft high?

I just don't understand the reasoning behind this?  For what?  To save Iraqi lives??  Eff that.

Seems to me that if one can justify dropping an Atomic Bomb on 2 Japanese cities "...to save 2 million Japanese and American lives", then why weren't the remaining citizens of Fallujah sacrificed to save American lives?

I mean... WHAT THE F*CK??

@txradioguy  @sneakypete  @Bigun @rangerrebew

You guys are the only servicemen who I'm aware of here on the forum.

Please explain this strategy?

What is the sense of having all this weapons superiority if you're afraid to use it?  Why kill our best and bravest for some shithole Middle Eastern city?

@DCPatriot

Sorry. I was enlisted swine,and doan no nutting bout nunna dat stratigity stuff.

I can only "GUESS" there were "political considerations".
The Democratic Party has declared war on America.

Online txradioguy

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Re: I Have To Ask....
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2020, 06:30:47 PM »
This documentary was riveting, @txradioguy   The brotherhood among the guys, yet they said you had no time to cry or dwell on fallen friends.

That's very true.  When you hear people say that in combat you're night fighting for a cause or for a leader etc you're fighting for the guy beside you i the fox hole that's 100% true.

When you're in the thick of it you have to stay focused because if you don't there's a high price to pay.  The more chaotic the situation gets the calmer you have to force yourself to be.

And when it's over you go find a quiet corner somewhere and mourn the ones that died. 

Quote
Me?   I would have simply destroyed the entire city without losing a man.  Long distance drone strikes works for me.

That's something neither you nor I would lose a minute's sleep over having happen.

Quote
Thank you for your service and sacrifice!   :patriot:

No thanks needed...but it is appreciated.  I thank you for supporting us.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline rangerrebew

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Re: I Have To Ask....
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2020, 06:03:05 AM »
@sneakypete  @txradioguy  @DCPatriot

I particularly like the term Political Considerations. I rather suspect this all too often the case with such disasters.  Also, the generals looking for another star may use such situations to show how "tough" they are and how willing to battle.  A good example would be MacArthur in WWII.  What a great leader!  Don't forget he was fighting a Japanese military which was pretty well beaten down at that point.  They still had a lot of fight but were beaten down by the manufacturing might of the US.  It was estimated that up to a million people would die in the invasion of Japan, and 250, 000 would be Americans.  Purple Hearts were ordered for the blood bath, so many, the purple hearts being issued today are from those ordered for the invasion of Japan.  It seems a prudent General would have tried some other way before committing 250,000 men to their deaths.  But he was an egotistical SOB who thought his legacy was in that invasion.  I"m sure he was crestfallen by the use of the nukes instead of invasion.

That gets back to DC's comment about different command styles bring different ways of combat.  When, military-wise,
the person with the most stars says to do this or that, that is what is done.  They are one step below Jesus in those  combat situations and people who balk might earn their purple hearts with a bullet in the back.

Two other things can be involved: bad intelligence and bad communication.  Both were major killers of people in the Civil War.  Many battles were one or lost by over-estimating or under-estimating the size of the force being faced.  While both are much, much better today, those generals getting the intelligence to make plans may or may not believe the intelligence and plan accordingly.  Gen McClellan was a perfect example.  He had Lee's written battle plan for Antietam in his hands but thought Lee's army was much larger than it was so he didn't attack when he should have.

When all the above are mixed together, it can be hell on the little guys.

C.S. Lewis: “I dread government in the name of science. That is how tyrannies come in.”

Online DCPatriot

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Re: I Have To Ask....
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2020, 06:31:27 AM »
@sneakypete  @txradioguy  @DCPatriot

I particularly like the term Political Considerations. I rather suspect this all too often the case with such disasters.  Also, the generals looking for another star may use such situations to show how "tough" they are and how willing to battle.  A good example would be MacArthur in WWII.  What a great leader!  Don't forget he was fighting a Japanese military which was pretty well beaten down at that point.  They still had a lot of fight but were beaten down by the manufacturing might of the US.  It was estimated that up to a million people would die in the invasion of Japan, and 250, 000 would be Americans.  Purple Hearts were ordered for the blood bath, so many, the purple hearts being issued today are from those ordered for the invasion of Japan.  It seems a prudent General would have tried some other way before committing 250,000 men to their deaths.  But he was an egotistical SOB who thought his legacy was in that invasion.  I"m sure he was crestfallen by the use of the nukes instead of invasion.

That gets back to DC's comment about different command styles bring different ways of combat.  When, military-wise,
the person with the most stars says to do this or that, that is what is done.  They are one step below Jesus in those  combat situations and people who balk might earn their purple hearts with a bullet in the back.

Two other things can be involved: bad intelligence and bad communication.  Both were major killers of people in the Civil War.  Many battles were one or lost by over-estimating or under-estimating the size of the force being faced.  While both are much, much better today, those generals getting the intelligence to make plans may or may not believe the intelligence and plan accordingly.  Gen McClellan was a perfect example.  He had Lee's written battle plan for Antietam in his hands but thought Lee's army was much larger than it was so he didn't attack when he should have.

When all the above are mixed together, it can be hell on the little guys.

@rangerrebew   @txradioguy

Excellent take, rangerrebew!

That insight was offered by txradioguy, not myself.  I am the civilian questioning sending our good me die or be maimed and scarred for life both physically and emotionally when other guaranteed winning methods are ignored or deemed inhumane.
"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

"Journalism is about covering the news.  With a pillow.  Until it stops moving."    - Iowahawk

Violence is NEVER the answer.  Violence is how you GET the answer.

Online sneakypete

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Re: I Have To Ask....
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2020, 10:57:53 AM »
@sneakypete  @txradioguy  @DCPatriot

I particularly like the term Political Considerations. 

@rangerrebew

Being ex-SF,I am probably more familiar with that term than most enlisted swine,but that doesn't mean I like it.

In fact,I am trying hard and unsuccessfully to come up with a term I hate more. 

IF *I* were the CMMFIC of the US military and some dickhead politician were to even WHISPER that term to me,I would tell him to GTF out of the room before I ordered him shot,or shot him myself.

You either fight a freaking war to win the GD thing,or you don't fight it!

Once you win it,the parasites we call politicians can then discuss and establish the political aspects.

The ones I don't order hanged for treason at the end of the war,that is.

« Last Edit: November 25, 2020, 11:01:05 AM by sneakypete »
The Democratic Party has declared war on America.

Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Re: I Have To Ask....
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2020, 10:59:33 AM »
Maybe Mattis doesn't give shit about his troops lives? Why put them in harm's way twice for the same land?

Like you, no military experience so I don't know.

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Re: I Have To Ask....
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2020, 05:15:05 PM »
Maybe Mattis doesn't give shit about his troops lives? Why put them in harm's way twice for the same land?

Like you, no military experience so I don't know.

@Weird Tolkienish Figure I can tell you from first hand experience at the border two years ago he DOES care about the troops.  He was taking the time on his visit to Donna, TX when I covered him to talk with the soldiers, encourage them and everything a great military leader should do.

However...

From my experience great military leaders...whether enlisted or commissioned officer suck at being politicians.

There are exceptions though.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline bigheadfred

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Re: I Have To Ask....
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2020, 05:24:28 PM »
This documentary was riveting, @txradioguy   The brotherhood among the guys, yet they said you had no time to cry or dwell on fallen friends.

Me?   I would have simply destroyed the entire city without losing a man.  Long distance drone strikes works for me.

Thank you for your service and sacrifice!   :patriot:

Is this where I ask for my Neutron bombs?
She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Offline rangerrebew

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Re: I Have To Ask....
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2020, 06:53:04 AM »
Is this where I ask for my Neutron bombs?

Neutron bombs wouldn't be eco-friendly.  They would turn all that sand to glass and keep reflecting the heat from the sun back into the atmosphere.  Global warming, you know. :whistle:
« Last Edit: November 26, 2020, 06:53:54 AM by rangerrebew »
C.S. Lewis: “I dread government in the name of science. That is how tyrannies come in.”

Offline bigheadfred

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Re: I Have To Ask....
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2020, 08:14:13 AM »
Neutron bombs wouldn't be eco-friendly.  They would turn all that sand to glass and keep reflecting the heat from the sun back into the atmosphere.  Global warming, you know. :whistle:

Aim that residual energy at solar panels. They would even work on cloudy days.
She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Re: I Have To Ask....
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2020, 10:09:36 PM »
@Weird Tolkienish Figure I can tell you from first hand experience at the border two years ago he DOES care about the troops.  He was taking the time on his visit to Donna, TX when I covered him to talk with the soldiers, encourage them and everything a great military leader should do.

However...

From my experience great military leaders...whether enlisted or commissioned officer suck at being politicians.

There are exceptions though.

I lost all respect for him during the George Floyd riots.

Online sneakypete

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Re: I Have To Ask....
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2020, 07:44:37 AM »
@Weird Tolkienish Figure I can tell you from first hand experience at the border two years ago he DOES care about the troops.  He was taking the time on his visit to Donna, TX when I covered him to talk with the soldiers, encourage them and everything a great military leader should do.

However...

Quote
From my experience great military leaders...whether enlisted or commissioned officer suck at being politicians.

Of course they do. Completely different job requirements. You will never hear of a great politician that became a great military leader,either.

Quote
There are exceptions though.


Never heard of one. Don't suggest Eisenhower. He was never a great anything unless it was bureaucrat.
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Online txradioguy

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Re: I Have To Ask....
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2020, 11:44:53 PM »
I was goin to point to two current members of Congress...Tom Cotton and Dan Crenshaw.

The one former one that comes to mind is Congressional Medal of Honor recipient Bob Kerrey.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline rangerrebew

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Re: I Have To Ask....
« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2020, 06:06:45 AM »
The one former one that comes to mind is Congressional Medal of Honor recipient Bob Kerrey.

I would think ex-military officers might be no good at politics since they are used to having orders carried out at once without discussion.

As far as Kerry, the CMH has very little effect a person's intelligence or ability to get along with people.  A horse's *ss who might be awarded one will still be a horses  *ss after he/she receives it.  A lot of not overly intelligent people seem to believe that being elected to congress gives them more intelligence and qualifications to make decisions affecting the lives of all Americans.  A horse's *ss before being elected will still be a horses *ss when seated.
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