Author Topic: Trump’s triumphant-end run around the Democrats  (Read 3076 times)

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Offline SZonian

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Re: Trump’s triumphant-end run around the Democrats
« Reply #75 on: August 09, 2020, 08:16:40 pm »
@sneakypete

Pete, I am sorry to Scooge out on this one, but in most cases if people would have practiced financial restraint, saved for a rainy day, and invested wisely, we wouldn't have such a large entitlement class in this country.  Call it a hardened heart, but my level of empathy has dropped considerably with time, and to the point I resent having to not only foot the bill with my tax dollars, but plus watch our idiotic government spend us over a fiscal cliff while doing it.  It might make me look like an AH, but I don't give a shit.
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Offline skeeter

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Re: Trump’s triumphant-end run around the Democrats
« Reply #76 on: August 09, 2020, 08:19:03 pm »
@sneakypete

Pete, I am sorry to Scooge out on this one, but in most cases if people would have practiced financial restraint, saved for a rainy day, and invested wisely, we wouldn't have such a large entitlement class in this country.  Call it a hardened heart, but my level of empathy has dropped considerably with time, and to the point I resent having to not only foot the bill with my tax dollars, but plus watch our idiotic government spend us over a fiscal cliff while doing it.  It might make me look like an AH, but I don't give a shit.

Well for crying out loud then make your stand denying benefits to people who don't deserve the help. I'll say it again, what do you do with people who've lost their livelihoods because of state government covid policy?


« Last Edit: August 09, 2020, 08:19:52 pm by skeeter »

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Re: Trump’s triumphant-end run around the Democrats
« Reply #77 on: August 09, 2020, 08:24:54 pm »
Well for crying out loud then make your stand denying benefits to people who don't deserve the help. I'll say it again, what do you do with people who've lost their livelihoods because of state government covid policy?

My stand?   888mouth
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Offline skeeter

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Re: Trump’s triumphant-end run around the Democrats
« Reply #78 on: August 09, 2020, 08:26:23 pm »
My stand?   888mouth

This thread is about the most recent "Covid bailout", is it not?

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Re: Trump’s triumphant-end run around the Democrats
« Reply #79 on: August 09, 2020, 08:30:14 pm »
This thread is about the most recent "Covid bailout", is it not?

I may digress.  But then again, we have seen so many bailouts since 2008, I lose track.  How many $Trillion will this make now?
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Offline DB

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Re: Trump’s triumphant-end run around the Democrats
« Reply #80 on: August 09, 2020, 08:30:48 pm »
Well for crying out loud then make your stand denying benefits to people who don't deserve the help. I'll say it again, what do you do with people who've lost their livelihoods because of state government covid policy?

How about hold the state government accountable that is choosing to bankrupt business.

Why is someone's man made disaster due to who they elected become someone else's problem that had no say in that state?

For example why should any other state pay for Oregon's and Minnesota's choices on the riots?

Offline skeeter

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Re: Trump’s triumphant-end run around the Democrats
« Reply #81 on: August 09, 2020, 08:33:14 pm »
I may digress.  But then again, we have seen so many bailouts since 2008, I lose track.  How many Trillion will this make now?

Nice dodge.

We're talking about the virus.

Offline skeeter

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Re: Trump’s triumphant-end run around the Democrats
« Reply #82 on: August 09, 2020, 08:36:01 pm »
How about hold the state government accountable that is choosing to bankrupt business.

Why is someone's man made disaster due to who they elected become someone else's problem that had no say in that state?

For example why should any other state pay for Oregon's and Minnesota's choices on the riots?

Because a global pandemic is not the same as a state or city government actively accommodating anarchy. Because getting people back to work and the economy going is in everyone's interests.


Offline HoustonSam

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Re: Trump’s triumphant-end run around the Democrats
« Reply #83 on: August 09, 2020, 08:36:35 pm »
Forgotten the Laffer Curve?

Obviously spending is a problem. But stop the bleeding first.

The Laffer curve theorizes that tax revenue is maximized at a tax rate which achieves the optimum compromise between government revenue generation and private economy loss of capital.  Trump has not suggested an optimum tax rate, but a tax holiday, in other words a temporary effective tax rate of zero for some people, which will temporarily achieve zero government revenue from those people.

Trump's proposal might be necessary policy (I didn't say good policy) given the current needs of many Americans, and it might be good politics to shine a light on the irrelevant partisan outcomes desired by democrats.  But the Laffer curve actually predicts it will decrease Federal tax revenues, and if spending is not also reduced then Federal debt by definition will be increased.

The day must eventually arrive when everyone recognizes that spending our descendants' money is not an acceptable solution for our problems, because the day is drawing rapidly closer when the credit markets recognize that US Federal Debt actually commands a dramatically sub-par value.
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Re: Trump’s triumphant-end run around the Democrats
« Reply #84 on: August 09, 2020, 08:37:46 pm »
Nice dodge.

We're talking about the virus.

C'mon Man!!!!!

I am not going to be baited out that I support starving women and children.  That's a dim tactic.
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Offline XenaLee

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Re: Trump’s triumphant-end run around the Democrats
« Reply #85 on: August 09, 2020, 08:37:54 pm »
Because a global pandemic is not the same as a state or city government actively accommodating anarchy. Because getting people back to work and the economy going is in everyone's interests.

Well.... not "everyone's" interests. 
« Last Edit: August 09, 2020, 08:39:42 pm by XenaLee »
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Trump’s triumphant-end run around the Democrats
« Reply #86 on: August 09, 2020, 08:38:27 pm »
Well for crying out loud then make your stand denying benefits to people who don't deserve the help.

The question that begs is, "Who decides who's deserving?"

I'd peg that at, people who were thrown out of work due directly to a Gummint edict.  If you own or work at a bar, then you were put out of an income stream because of an action by the Masters over at the several State Capitals and should get compensated some.  Did you quit your job at a pizza delivery joint to get paid >2X what you got from the shop in unemployment?  Screw you.  Get a job.
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Re: Trump’s triumphant-end run around the Democrats
« Reply #87 on: August 09, 2020, 08:38:29 pm »
I may digress.  But then again, we have seen so many bailouts since 2008, I lose track.  How many $Trillion will this make now?

 happy77
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Re: Trump’s triumphant-end run around the Democrats
« Reply #88 on: August 09, 2020, 08:40:51 pm »
C'mon Man!!!!!

I am not going to be baited out that I support starving women and children.  That's a dim tactic.

My Facebook friends who hate President Trump are posting memes claiming he admitted that Social Security and Medicare are going to be cut.

LOL!   

Another take on Ryan tipping grandma's wheelchair over the cliff.   Hope it doesn't work THIS time.
"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

"Journalism is about covering the news.  With a pillow.  Until it stops moving."    - David Burge (Iowahawk)

"It was only a sunny smile, and little it cost in the giving, but like morning light it scattered the night and made the day worth living" F. Scott Fitzgerald

Offline skeeter

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Re: Trump’s triumphant-end run around the Democrats
« Reply #89 on: August 09, 2020, 08:43:18 pm »
The Laffer curve theorizes that tax revenue is maximized at a tax rate which achieves the optimum compromise between government revenue generation and private economy loss of capital.  Trump has not suggested an optimum tax rate, but a tax holiday, in other words a temporary effective tax rate of zero for some people, which will temporarily achieve zero government revenue from those people.

Trump's proposal might be necessary policy (I didn't say good policy) given the current needs of many Americans, and it might be good politics to shine a light on the irrelevant partisan outcomes desired by democrats.  But the Laffer curve actually predicts it will decrease Federal tax revenues, and if spending is not also reduced then Federal debt by definition will be increased.

The day must eventually arrive when everyone recognizes that spending our descendants' money is not an acceptable solution for our problems, because the day is drawing rapidly closer when the credit markets recognize that US Federal Debt actually commands a dramatically sub-par value.

Would you at least allow that even a temporary tax holiday would stimulate economic activity which might help offset the spending going out in the form of the covid salary subsidy? Which is the motive premise of Laffer's curve?

Offline skeeter

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Re: Trump’s triumphant-end run around the Democrats
« Reply #90 on: August 09, 2020, 08:46:30 pm »
The question that begs is, "Who decides who's deserving?"

I'd peg that at, people who were thrown out of work due directly to a Gummint edict.  If you own or work at a bar, then you were put out of an income stream because of an action by the Masters over at the several State Capitals and should get compensated some.  Did you quit your job at a pizza delivery joint to get paid >2X what you got from the shop in unemployment?  Screw you.  Get a job.

Granted. But what might have happened to the more unfortunate among us by the time we figure that out? Rent/mortgage is due in two weeks. Fridge is empty today. Sounds melodramatic but this is where many people are right now.

I totally agree with your standard, if its possible to quickly determine.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2020, 08:49:00 pm by skeeter »

Offline skeeter

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Re: Trump’s triumphant-end run around the Democrats
« Reply #91 on: August 09, 2020, 08:47:44 pm »
Well.... not "everyone's" interests.

No certainly not everyone.

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Trump’s triumphant-end run around the Democrats
« Reply #92 on: August 09, 2020, 08:51:35 pm »
Granted. But what might have happened to the more unfortunate among us by the time we figure that out? Rent/mortgage is due in two weeks. Fridge is empty today. Sounds melodramatic but this is where many people are right now.

I totally agree with your standard, if its possible to quickly determine.

A crapton of money has been shoveled out, yet delinquent rent is higher than ever.  There may be a flaw in the program.
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Offline libertybele

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Re: Trump’s triumphant-end run around the Democrats
« Reply #93 on: August 09, 2020, 08:54:10 pm »
Trump isn't going along with rat covid policy. He's parrying it. The way I see it the best way out of this is to get the economy going again by getting people off the 'vid welfare rolls and back to work, while throwing those thrown out of work, through no fault of their own, a lifeline.

The circumstances being what they are he is playing the only hand he has.

He isn't doing anything different than what the DEMS are proposing except cutting back the dollar amount of what they wanted and there's no guarantee that they won't take him to court and get what they want anyways.

A. People have to have jobs.  B. They need to have an incentive to go back to work instead of  being given an incentive not to find work.  C. Jobs need to be created; incentives to employers to expand, hire and train.

People have already been thrown a lifeline.  A life line that worked for a month, two at best and now we're back to the very same place with no resolution in sight.  The only resolution that has been proposed is throwing more money at the situation.  That continued practice is not sustainable.
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Offline libertybele

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Re: Trump’s triumphant-end run around the Democrats
« Reply #94 on: August 09, 2020, 09:06:38 pm »
Granted. But what might have happened to the more unfortunate among us by the time we figure that out? Rent/mortgage is due in two weeks. Fridge is empty today. Sounds melodramatic but this is where many people are right now.

I totally agree with your standard, if its possible to quickly determine.

It is not melodramatic and I know it is happening and it's been happening.  One huge problem as I have mentioned before is that there are still people who haven't gotten dime one.  There are people who have not received all of their benefits that they were due.  There are people who didn't receive all of their extended benefits promised.  My understanding is that this was being paid out by two different entities -- unemployment through the state -- extended benefits through the Feds.

FL is a prime example.  So -- what happened to all the money that should have been paid out that people didn't get? Where did it go?  It isn't just happening in FL.  Governors need to be held accountable and they're not and Trump is expecting them to help with 25% of the cost?? 

We're approaching round two and expecting different results when absolutely nothing has changed.

Sorry, but I don't see this as Trump being triumphant around the DEMS  -- he's doing the same thing.
Romans 12:16-21

Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly, do not claim to be wiser than you are.  Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all.  If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all…do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Trump’s triumphant-end run around the Democrats
« Reply #95 on: August 09, 2020, 09:11:34 pm »
I'm gonna guess you are financially untouched by this entire Covid disaster. Suffice it to say I, and many many other I know, are not. It has been an effing catastrophe.

BTW I have received not a dime from the government, and do not expect to.

The only income I have that I can count on right now is meager online work as a site manager. It'a really nothing much. That dough comes into my account directly, as all of that is paid monthly by credit card by my clients... But I can only get at my money 300 bucks at a time, delivered via ATM in 20 dollar bills. My business as a computer tech has dropped off the face of the planet. I am surviving mainly on stores, forage, fishing, the garden, and what little trade I get from hillbillies... Other than the beef we took to freezer camp a couple months ago, restocking has been hard to do, but harvest is here, and I will be topped off and then some shortly. And I am doubling down. I will have a year's worth stored up by the end of harvest,and I am going hunting for sure this year, and will get an elk in the freezer good Lord willing.

Last month, without the online dough I can't really get at, and without really resorting to printing a balance sheet, I made something around five to seven hundred bucks. SO don't think for a minute I am unaffected.

The exception is that I possess alternatives to a raw money income stream in barter and forage and farm, which will keep my belly full regardless. And I own my house, and the new place up in the holler. That's different life decisions than most all y'all, and right now I am kickin it because of it. Hillbilly Deluxe. The rest of the time, y'all would laugh at how I live, which is surely meager by comparison to most folks... But right now, when the chips are down, is why I live the way I do. Hard times always come. Hard scrabble is where I shine, because I have done it all along.

I DID get the 1200 bucks from uncle, and it went to pay my property taxes. Every bit of it. So woohoo.


Offline HoustonSam

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Re: Trump’s triumphant-end run around the Democrats
« Reply #96 on: August 09, 2020, 09:13:11 pm »
Would you at least allow that even a temporary tax holiday would stimulate economic activity which might help offset the spending going out in the form of the covid salary subsidy? Which is the motive premise of Laffer's curve?

I certainly concede that the payroll tax holiday can stimulate the economy, and that is sorely needed.  Simply from the standpoint of putting people back to work I believe it would be effective.

But I dispute that it offsets the additional federal expenditure on covid relief.  A growing economy that pays nothing in taxes does not provide government revenue.  I do believe the payroll tax holiday will cushion the impact of state and local shut-down edicts for many and will enable a somewhat-more-functioning economy to resume providing effective government revenues more quickly.  Whether or not Federal taxpayers in one state should incur greater debt because of questionable decisions made in a different state is still an open question however.

The Laffer curve really isn't about stimulating the economy, it's about tax policy which funds government without choking the economy.  A tax rate of 100% will provide no government revenue because it will kill the economy since no one will work just to turn over all they make to the government; a tax rate of 0% will provide no government revenue by mathematical definition but a roaring economy.

If we need to stimulate the economy now without recovering tax revenue from it (or recovering less), so be it, maybe that's necessary, but let's be clear about the immediate economics and the math.  The debt will increase.  In theory that additional debt could be paid later, but that's been the theory on every federal spending priority now for decades, and it's proven to be a failed theory.
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Trump’s triumphant-end run around the Democrats
« Reply #97 on: August 09, 2020, 09:15:43 pm »
But I can only get at my money 300 bucks at a time, delivered via ATM in 20 dollar bills.

You might be able to get that $300 limit increased by contacting your bank.  I can do it online at mine.
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Re: Trump’s triumphant-end run around the Democrats
« Reply #98 on: August 09, 2020, 09:16:13 pm »
My Facebook friends who hate President Trump are posting memes claiming he admitted that Social Security and Medicare are going to be cut.

LOL!   

Another take on Ryan tipping grandma's wheelchair over the cliff.   Hope it doesn't work THIS time.

LOL...  and no points for the cheesy Biden Meme?


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Offline roamer_1

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Re: Trump’s triumphant-end run around the Democrats
« Reply #99 on: August 09, 2020, 09:18:17 pm »
The day must eventually arrive when everyone recognizes that spending our descendants' money is not an acceptable solution for our problems, because the day is drawing rapidly closer when the credit markets recognize that US Federal Debt actually commands a dramatically sub-par value.

THIS!!!  pointing-up