Author Topic: The Atomic Attacks on Japan: Justified or Not?  (Read 3832 times)

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Online Hoodat

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Re: The Atomic Attacks on Japan: Justified or Not?
« Reply #50 on: August 07, 2020, 11:26:32 pm »
More people died in the taking of Saipan, a 45 sq. mi. island, than died in the Nagasaki blast.
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Offline EdinVA

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Re: The Atomic Attacks on Japan: Justified or Not?
« Reply #51 on: August 07, 2020, 11:48:30 pm »
Well, it was justified on 12/7/1941

Offline goatprairie

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Re: The Atomic Attacks on Japan: Justified or Not?
« Reply #52 on: August 08, 2020, 02:36:19 am »
More people died in the taking of Saipan, a 45 sq. mi. island, than died in the Nagasaki blast.
More than one hundred thousand Japanese died in a single  air raid on Tokyo.
I don't think many people grasped the enormous extent of the total carnage from that war, and that the people who died in the atomic blasts represented only a small percentage of that total.
If we had invaded Japan with the consequent loss of at least one hundred thousand allied dead and many more wounded when we had the a-bomb, the citizens would have been justified in hanging Truman and the advisors who counseled against using the a-bomb.

Offline DB

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Re: The Atomic Attacks on Japan: Justified or Not?
« Reply #53 on: August 08, 2020, 03:17:37 am »
More than one hundred thousand Japanese died in a single  air raid on Tokyo.
I don't think many people grasped the enormous extent of the total carnage from that war, and that the people who died in the atomic blasts represented only a small percentage of that total.
If we had invaded Japan with the consequent loss of at least one hundred thousand allied dead and many more wounded when we had the a-bomb, the citizens would have been justified in hanging Truman and the advisors who counseled against using the a-bomb.

Didn't it take 2 days and a second detonation to get Japan to surrender? How many lives would have been saved if Japan had not held out those 2 days?

Offline truth_seeker

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Re: The Atomic Attacks on Japan: Justified or Not?
« Reply #54 on: August 08, 2020, 03:26:00 am »
As an example, if you were a redhead taken prisoner by the Japanese your chances of survival were next to nothing.

I once knew a Japanese expate living here, and he share that people all axross Asia are racists.

Koreans were enslaved by "superior" Japs, in their view.

Generally Japs feel themselves to be above all others.



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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: The Atomic Attacks on Japan: Justified or Not?
« Reply #55 on: August 08, 2020, 10:09:47 am »
And for what exactly?
It's massive. Mass debate has its own level of self-gratification, or so I hear.... :whistle:
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Offline Gefn

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Re: The Atomic Attacks on Japan: Justified or Not?
« Reply #56 on: August 08, 2020, 10:28:31 am »
I don’t know, but my dad almost got sent to Japan during WW II. Instead he ended up in Germany because Germany surrendered. If they hadn’t, he would have gone to Japan, and might not have met my mom...etc.


I think we learned from Hiroshima and Nagasaki that a bomb should never be dropped on people or other living things again.

It’s like Einstein’s quote about WW IV being fought with sticks and stones.

And I believe but correct me please if I’m incorrect, but didn’t Oppenheimer regret helping creating this ?
« Last Edit: August 08, 2020, 10:30:56 am by Gefn »
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: The Atomic Attacks on Japan: Justified or Not?
« Reply #57 on: August 08, 2020, 10:49:58 am »
I don’t know, but my dad almost got sent to Japan during WW II. Instead he ended up in Germany because Germany surrendered. If they hadn’t, he would have gone to Japan, and might not have met my mom...etc.


I think we learned from Hiroshima and Nagasaki that a bomb should never be dropped on people or other living things again.

It’s like Einstein’s quote about WW IV being fought with sticks and stones.

And I believe but correct me please if I’m incorrect, but didn’t Oppenheimer regret helping creating this ?
Never say never.
 
It is, however a level of force escalation with profound implications, and nothing to be taken lightly.

There are those who would not hesitate to use it, however, if they thought we would fail to retaliate, and in order to prevent that, the deterrent must be maintained and credible.

Yes, some of those who helped create the bomb regretted it later. There would be a lot of soul searching associated with such a creation, especially after seeing the results. Likely not a few bad dreams at night, at least for a while. But then just meeting a few of the guys who were slated to go ashore in the invasion might change your mind about that. Like you said, your Dad might not have met your Mom...
I believe things work out, that there is someone at the helm, and all has purpose.

Imagine, instead, a Stalin (who invaded Manchuria to get the Japanese data on the atom) with a bomb and us without. If there was, at the time, one country which could temper its desire to use such power for conquest, this was the one.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Gefn

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Re: The Atomic Attacks on Japan: Justified or Not?
« Reply #58 on: August 08, 2020, 11:08:34 am »
@Smokin Joe

I do agree with you. My parents and grandparents felt the bombings were justified.

As for me, well, I was a month old during the Cuban Missile Crisis. I read John Hershey’s “Hiroshima” for AP World History class. So I’m coming in as a Monday morning quarterback.

I guess I had nightmares after September 11 that we would be nuked and I still do. I think this is why I’m the way I am on this issue. With the bombs of today, the carnage would be so much greater. But I do understand why we have them.

I guess, in a war situation we have evolved past cannons, guns and bayonets.
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: The Atomic Attacks on Japan: Justified or Not?
« Reply #59 on: August 08, 2020, 01:16:33 pm »
@Smokin Joe

I do agree with you. My parents and grandparents felt the bombings were justified.

As for me, well, I was a month old during the Cuban Missile Crisis. I read John Hershey’s “Hiroshima” for AP World History class. So I’m coming in as a Monday morning quarterback.

I guess I had nightmares after September 11 that we would be nuked and I still do. I think this is why I’m the way I am on this issue. With the bombs of today, the carnage would be so much greater. But I do understand why we have them.

I guess, in a war situation we have evolved past cannons, guns and bayonets.
I remember living 50 miles south of D.C., and my Dad drawing circles with a compass on the map of MD, VA, and DC. We were far enough out to survive a hit on the Mall, but would have had to take the boat to Virginia across nine miles of Potomac River to get away. Those were tense days. No one in our family much discussed Hiroshima or Nagasaki, but the rare mention would produce comments to the effect of "we did what we had to to win, and the Bomb saved a lot of our guys".
As it turns out, it saved a lot of Japanese, too, even though the 'peaceniks' pushing for unilateral disarmament focused on the casualties of the Bomb. It wasn't so clear then that many of them were, in fact, communist agitators or sympathizers who wanted nothing more than to strip the US of nuclear parity, so we'd either be cowed into submission or be able to be defeated.
That didn't happen.
Einstein may or may not have been right about WWIV, but no war is won until the ground is occupied. Small arms, whether they be pointy sticks and rocks or knives, or AR-15s or M4s will always play a part in that.

September 11 was not so much about total destruction as humiliation, even though it was definitely destructive. The idea that a couple dozen fanatics could strike a blow deep in our country, at the Pentagon, at the trade center in the heart of New York City, and another plane likely destined for the Capitol (something from a Tom Clancy Plot), using commercial planes as guided missiles, brought the war home to the US. The casualties here shocked the nation.

The effect was much as you described. For the first time since U-boats roamed the Atlantic off shore and air wardens kept watch on the rivers and bays of both coasts, since Americans watched for invaders all around this nation, we felt vulnerable in a way that was foreign to an entire generation.  And yes, the prospect of being on the receiving end of nuclear weapons is troubling indeed. Which is why both a deterrent force and the will to use it, if need be are essential to keeping the peace.  It is an issue I dealt with growing up in that shadow of Mutually Assured Destruction, and now I have a ringside seat, with silos within 75 miles of where I sit. We'd see the flash and the clouds from a pre-emptive strike. That's one ticket I hope I never use, because the implications would be dire.
But WWII also proved that while you can bomb an enemy's towns to rubble, but short of the Bomb--the only time a nation has met with final defeat from the air, you still have to have the infantry move in. Canons, guns, and bayonets will likely never go out of fashion, unless something more lethal and portable comes along. So, we remain, a nation with a rifle behind every blade of grass. May it ever be so.
While that may seem Spartan in outlook, I do not intend it to. It is only that we have those willing to do the unpleasant work of what it takes to protect this nation that gives so many its citizens the ability to enjoy so much, and why I place such high value upon all who have served it.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Online GtHawk

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Re: The Atomic Attacks on Japan: Justified or Not?
« Reply #60 on: August 08, 2020, 08:45:54 pm »
Didn't it take 2 days and a second detonation to get Japan to surrender? How many lives would have been saved if Japan had not held out those 2 days?

This is one of the reasons it was necessary unlike other nations that had a king or high elected leader Japan had a GOD as leader and they were taught from birth the belief that he was all powerful and that dying for him was accepted the same as breathing. Also the Japanese were told that the Americans were rapists and murderers(that projection thing) and would kill everyone so the Japanese were prepared to die, man, woman and child for their Emperor/God. Without the dropping of the bombs the casualties on both sides would have been insane.

Offline skeeter

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Re: The Atomic Attacks on Japan: Justified or Not?
« Reply #61 on: August 08, 2020, 08:52:37 pm »

This is one of the reasons it was necessary unlike other nations that had a king or high elected leader Japan had a GOD as leader and they were taught from birth the belief that he was all powerful and that dying for him was accepted the same as breathing. Also the Japanese were told that the Americans were rapists and murderers(that projection thing) and would kill everyone so the Japanese were prepared to die, man, woman and child for their Emperor/God. Without the dropping of the bombs the casualties on both sides would have been insane.
Although he was considered a God by the people the emperor risked his own life recording that surrender message to the nation. The recording had to be smuggled out of the imperial palace to a radio station for broadcasting as the same fanatical mid level officer caste who were responsible for the assassinations of many moderates in the thirties that led to war were STILL determined to carry on the war, even after Nagasaki, and were desperately searching the palace for the data.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2020, 08:53:50 pm by skeeter »

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: The Atomic Attacks on Japan: Justified or Not?
« Reply #62 on: August 08, 2020, 11:50:32 pm »
Although he was considered a God by the people the emperor risked his own life recording that surrender message to the nation. The recording had to be smuggled out of the imperial palace to a radio station for broadcasting as the same fanatical mid level officer caste who were responsible for the assassinations of many moderates in the thirties that led to war were STILL determined to carry on the war, even after Nagasaki, and were desperately searching the palace for the data.
Right. The invasion and subjugation of Manchuria was conducted at the onset by a rogue commander.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline LMAO

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Re: The Atomic Attacks on Japan: Justified or Not?
« Reply #63 on: August 09, 2020, 12:27:36 am »
It is a whole lot easier to question whether some previous generation's lives were worth losing to defeat the Japanese without the bomb. It is something else all together when it is your life or your families lives on the line....

As far as I'm concerned the Japanese earned it. They were absolutely brutal to everyone they attacked and enslaved. They were the aggressor.

@DB

Many years ago, I had a patient that was a WW2 vet and his unit was training as part of the Japanese invasion force.

If he's still alive today, this would be a question to ask him. I'm sure his wife, children, grandchildren are all thankful for Truman and the bomb
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Offline skeeter

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Re: The Atomic Attacks on Japan: Justified or Not?
« Reply #64 on: August 09, 2020, 12:59:23 am »
Right. The invasion and subjugation of Manchuria was conducted at the onset by a rogue commander.
It was a weird phenomena - these youg officers ended up being more powerful than the seasoned politicians and military brass and dragged that entire half of the world to war.

An example of how enthusiasm for a cause matters most of all.

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: The Atomic Attacks on Japan: Justified or Not?
« Reply #65 on: August 09, 2020, 05:16:42 am »
@DB

Many years ago, I had a patient that was a WW2 vet and his unit was training as part of the Japanese invasion force.

If he's still alive today, this would be a question to ask him. I'm sure his wife, children, grandchildren are all thankful for Truman and the bomb

I've had that conversation, years ago, with my Pop who was in the Navy, Pacific.  His landing boat was training for the invasion.  The news that it was called off because {Boom!} was the best news he'd ever heard.
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