Author Topic: The Atomic Attacks on Japan: Justified or Not?  (Read 3833 times)

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Offline goatprairie

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Re: The Atomic Attacks on Japan: Justified or Not?
« Reply #25 on: August 04, 2020, 05:41:34 pm »
It is a whole lot easier to question whether some previous generation's lives were worth losing to defeat the Japanese without the bomb. It is something else all together when it is your life or your families lives on the line....

As far as I'm concerned the Japanese earned it. They were absolutely brutal to everyone they attacked and enslaved. They were the aggressor.
"As far as I'm concerned the Japanese earned it. They were absolutely brutal to everyone they attacked and enslaved."

Absolutely true. The numbers of people murdered by the Japanese army in China and other Asian countries rivals what the Nazis did.  And the Germans treated Allied pows (apart from Russians) far better than the Japanese who deliberately tried to kill pows by starving them and many times simply killing them.
The warrior code of Bushido didn't allow for mercy towards captives.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2020, 05:42:42 pm by goatprairie »

Offline Hoodat

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Re: The Atomic Attacks on Japan: Justified or Not?
« Reply #26 on: August 04, 2020, 08:28:58 pm »
"As far as I'm concerned the Japanese earned it. They were absolutely brutal to everyone they attacked and enslaved."

Absolutely true. The numbers of people murdered by the Japanese army in China and other Asian countries rivals what the Nazis did.  And the Germans treated Allied pows (apart from Russians) far better than the Japanese who deliberately tried to kill pows by starving them and many times simply killing them.
The warrior code of Bushido didn't allow for mercy towards captives.

The War in the Pacific was truly a racist war in every respect.  When people complain about racism here, they should move to Asia and find out what real racism is all about.
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Offline skeeter

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Re: The Atomic Attacks on Japan: Justified or Not?
« Reply #27 on: August 04, 2020, 08:47:50 pm »
The War in the Pacific was truly a racist war in every respect.  When people complain about racism here, they should move to Asia and find out what real racism is all about.

As an example, if you were a redhead taken prisoner by the Japanese your chances of survival were next to nothing.

Offline berdie

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Re: The Atomic Attacks on Japan: Justified or Not?
« Reply #28 on: August 04, 2020, 08:51:39 pm »
Aside from the obvious, from what I have read, there were massive munition factories in both cities. They were both legit targets, imho. For whatever kind of warfare we used.

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Re: The Atomic Attacks on Japan: Justified or Not?
« Reply #29 on: August 04, 2020, 10:28:07 pm »
Aside from the obvious, from what I have read, there were massive munition factories in both cities. They were both legit targets, imho. For whatever kind of warfare we used.

That is correct.  They were both legitimate targets.
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Offline PeteS in CA

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Re: The Atomic Attacks on Japan: Justified or Not?
« Reply #30 on: August 04, 2020, 11:25:41 pm »
Battleships Kirishima (eventually), Hyuga, and battleship Musashi were built in Nagasaki. Heavy cruisers Mikuma, Chokai, Haguro, Aoba, Furutaka, Tone, and Chikuma were built in Nagasaki. Three light cruisers and some destroyers were built in Nagasaki.
If, as anti-Covid-vaxxers claim, https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2021/robert-f-kennedy-jr-said-the-covid-19-vaccine-is-the-deadliest-vaccine-ever-made-thats-not-true/ , https://gospelnewsnetwork.org/2021/11/23/covid-shots-are-the-deadliest-vaccines-in-medical-history/ , The Vaccine is deadly, where in the US have Pfizer and Moderna hidden the millions of bodies of those who died of "vaccine injury"? Is reality a Big Pharma Shill?

Millions now living should have died. Anti-Covid-Vaxxer ghouls hardest hit.

Offline skeeter

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Re: The Atomic Attacks on Japan: Justified or Not?
« Reply #31 on: August 04, 2020, 11:29:52 pm »
Aside from the obvious, from what I have read, there were massive munition factories in both cities. They were both legit targets, imho. For whatever kind of warfare we used.

Hiroshima was an army hub.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: The Atomic Attacks on Japan: Justified or Not?
« Reply #32 on: August 05, 2020, 09:02:54 am »
Hiroshima was an army hub.
They were legitimate military targets, but even more were relatively untouched by the incendiary bombing campaigns that has seriously damaged other Japanese cities, killing an estimated 80,000 to 100,000 in Tokyo alone.

Since they were undamaged, relatively speaking, they were ideal tests for bomb damage assessment for the bomb as well as military targets.
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Online The_Reader_David

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Re: The Atomic Attacks on Japan: Justified or Not?
« Reply #33 on: August 05, 2020, 12:49:47 pm »
I know it is a widely speculative number, but I have heard numbers like 50K-250K allied deaths had there been an invasion, and at least 2 to 3X that of Japanese. 

So, I go on the side of justified.

I've seen much higher casualty estimates for the never-launched Allied invasion of the Japanese home islands -- on the order of 2 million combat deaths on each side, plus about ten million Japanese civilians.  I, too am on the justified side. 
And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know what this was all about.

Offline Hoodat

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Re: The Atomic Attacks on Japan: Justified or Not?
« Reply #34 on: August 05, 2020, 04:48:21 pm »
Hiroshima was an army hub.

It was also home to POWs from the US, Britain, Australia, the Netherlands, Korea, etc.
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Re: The Atomic Attacks on Japan: Justified or Not?
« Reply #35 on: August 05, 2020, 04:57:29 pm »
I've seen much higher casualty estimates for the never-launched Allied invasion of the Japanese home islands -- on the order of 2 million combat deaths on each side, plus about ten million Japanese civilians.  I, too am on the justified side.

12M dead Japanese out of a population of about 72M?  I know this is the home of the kamikazeI  culture, but  I think that percentage of death ( 1 in 6, 16%)  seems a bit overstated.  Even as scorched earth as our Civil War was, only 2 1/2% died.
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Offline Hoodat

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Re: The Atomic Attacks on Japan: Justified or Not?
« Reply #36 on: August 05, 2020, 04:58:14 pm »
Battleships Kirishima (eventually), Hyuga, and battleship Musashi were built in Nagasaki. Heavy cruisers Mikuma, Chokai, Haguro, Aoba, Furutaka, Tone, and Chikuma were built in Nagasaki. Three light cruisers and some destroyers were built in Nagasaki.

Seven of those ten ships were at the Battle of Midway.  The Mikuma was sunk.
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Re: The Atomic Attacks on Japan: Justified or Not?
« Reply #37 on: August 06, 2020, 02:27:58 pm »
After 75 years, it’s time to for everyone to admit the Hiroshima atomic bombing saved millions of lives
By Thomas Lifson

https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2020/08/after_75_years_its_time_to_for_everyone_to_admit_the_hiroshima_atomic_bombing_saved_millions_of_lives.html
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Re: The Atomic Attacks on Japan: Justified or Not?
« Reply #38 on: August 06, 2020, 02:40:08 pm »
75 Years Later, It’s Clear Truman Was Right To Drop The Atomic Bomb
https://thefederalist.com/2020/08/06/75-years-later-its-clear-truman-was-right-to-drop-the-atomic-bomb/
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Online rustynail

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Re: The Atomic Attacks on Japan: Justified or Not?
« Reply #39 on: August 06, 2020, 02:46:55 pm »
Why the question?  Do we get a do over?

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Re: The Atomic Attacks on Japan: Justified or Not?
« Reply #40 on: August 06, 2020, 02:59:43 pm »
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Offline Fishrrman

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Re: The Atomic Attacks on Japan: Justified or Not?
« Reply #41 on: August 07, 2020, 12:13:47 am »
The left will abandon their wailing that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were "unjustified"... just after they admit that the Rosenbergs were guilty...

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Re: The Atomic Attacks on Japan: Justified or Not?
« Reply #42 on: August 07, 2020, 12:21:15 am »
The left will abandon their wailing that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were "unjustified"... just after they admit that the Rosenbergs were guilty...

LOL.  They're still carrying a torch for Sacco and Vanzetti.
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Offline jafo2010

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Re: The Atomic Attacks on Japan: Justified or Not?
« Reply #43 on: August 07, 2020, 06:22:30 am »
The doubt of those that question the dropping of the bombs on Japan is more idiocy.

I believe the numbers I read through the years reflected 1 million+ projected Allied casualties.  From my perspective, given the choice between one USA soldier/sailor dying versus 1 million Japanese enemies, I vote for the 1 million Japanese enemies.  Anything other than that is a reflection of our failure as a nation to understand the meaning of war.

Now for some facts not mentioned.  Russia would not have participated in an all out attack on Japan, or at least no greater than the French participation in the landings of Normandy, which were token participation.  Russia declared war on Japan for one primary reason.  They knew that Japan had successfully tested a nuclear weapon in Korea, and they wanted to move in to the Korean peninsula and capture the documentation for that technology, which is exactly what they did.  Anyone here doubt for one minute given the opportunity the Japanese would most certainly have used a nuclear device on the USA?  If so, give your brain an enema, for it is not functioning!

Japan used bio weapons on the Chinese to test them for their ultimate use on the USA.  The Japanese had designed an eight engine bomber that they planned to fly halfway across the USA and dump/blanket bio weapons on the western half of the USA.  Again, anyone doubt for a minute the Japanese would have used these bio weapons on the USA if they just had more time.  Had we not used nuclear weapons,  they would have stalled long enough to make that a reality, which could have well changed the outcome of the war.

The USA made numerous overtures to the Japanese requesting their surrender.  They ignored those requests.  Ignored them.  Therefore, Harry Truman had no choice in the matter.  He made a wise decision, and it should never be questioned.  And those that do question it should be told to shut the f*&^ up, for they are idiots.

My father was in the Navy, in the Pacific theater, driving a landing craft fighting the Japanese.  He was at the battles of Saipan, Leyte, Luzon, Okinawa and a couple smaller actions on other islands.  The death he witnessed if you know anything about these battles was significant.  He refused my whole life to ever discuss it with me.  He took all that knowledge to the grave in terms of the actual battles.

But I will tell you a funny story.  He refused all MY life to ever say a word about the war to me, but one day, my son, his only grandson comes home from school and...

Son says, "Wasn't Grandpa in a war or something?"
Me... "Yes he was.  He fought in WWII against the Japanese in the Pacific.  He was in the Navy".
Son..."I have to do an audio interview of a war veteran as a school project.  Do you think Grandpa would let me interview him about his experiences?"
Me..."You can call and ask him, but I have to tell you, all my life I asked him about his experiences during the war, and he adamantly refused to ever discuss it.  So, if he tells you something like that, do not be disappointed, for he saw some gruesome things during the war, many men being killed before his eyes, etc, and I would be surprised if he would want to discuss it with you."

So, my son calls my father, and of course, you can imagine what he said without me telling you.  My son told him about the assignment, and my father says, "Sure Neil, come on over and ask me anything."  Ugggh!!  I was happy for my son, but it bothered me that he never wanted to talk to me, his own son.  I worshiped him, read every book on the shelf about WWII, and always wanted to know more.

As I mentioned, my son only needed audio, but I decided to film it on VHS, and strip out the audio later for his assignment.  At the time, my father was diagnosed with metastasized lung cancer.  He had a tumor in his esophogus, told he only had two months to live(he was 1.5 years into that 2 months, using shark cartilage to stay alive...another story), and he met my son about six months before his death with the promise to answer any of his questions.

So I sat down with my son, and told him, he is going to answer all your questions, and all of mine that I never got to ask when I was a kid.  We listed out all the questions my son was to ask, and we went over one evening and sat down with my father, who lived only 4 miles away.  I helped him structure the interview without questions regarding the blood and guts of it all, because I did not want to upset my father in his condition.  My son was happy to avoid all that too at 11 or 12 years of age.

First question my son asks that has HUGE significance to me to this day.  This interview happened the first half of 1995.

Son..."Grandpa, can you tell me if you recall, how you first heard about the attack of Pearl Harbor by the Japanese?"
Grandpa...[he was 16 years of age, living in Mt. Washington in Pittsburgh, for those of you that know Pittsburgh, and for those that don't, it is a high hill overlooking the downtown area of the City of Pittsburgh]  [he chuckles]  'well, me and my buddies, we headed down the hill into the city that evening, and when we got in town, there were people running about and we were told that the Japanese attacked us at Pearl Harbor.  Now there were 6 or 7 of us, and we all looked at each other and said, where is Pearl Harbor?'

Not one of these boys had any idea where Pearl Harbor was.  Flash forward to 9/11 and compare what was done on that day to the USA.  For me, pick a number, 9/11 was 10x. 100x worse than December 7th, the Pearl Harbor attack.  The Japanese attacked military targets in the hopes of knocking us out of the war with one blow, targets that had the ability to defend themselves, and on 9/11, it was civilian facilities that were attacked in our country.  For me, many times worse than what the Japanese did.  That is why I have such a strong dislike for George Bush and his tea and crumpets response to 9/11.  Had I been POTUS, there would not have been need to spend one dime on Afghanistan, for I would have leveled it, and not lost a moment's sleep over it. 

So, back to the bombs in Japan.  These bombs being dropped brought a fast end to the war.  It saved my father's life possibly from further risk in battle with the Japanese, and the lives of many others.  Anyone that knows the mindset of the Japanese, they largely fought to the death with every island we took in the Pacific.  A lot of Americans died in those battles.  Even after we thought we had secured islands, the remaining Japanese would slip out of their caves and slit the throats of sleeping GIs, etc.  The Japanese on their own mainland would have fought with great ferocity to defend their islands, killing many.  There just wasn't another choice for Truman.  NONE!!!

BTW, anyone that has doubts of just how murderous the Japanese were during the war, please read the book The Rape of Nanking.  The Japanese were murderous, evil people.  They lined up Chinese civilians and competed with one another to see how many they could kill with one bullet.  They tore unborn babies from pregnant women and tossed the babies in the air to see who could impale them with their bayonets, they buried people partially in the ground and had dogs devour them alive while they watched and cheered.  Believe me, the Germans during WWII with their atrocities were to use an Obama phrase, the JV team versus the Japanese and their penchant for murder and evil.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2020, 06:37:07 am by jafo2010 »

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Re: The Atomic Attacks on Japan: Justified or Not?
« Reply #44 on: August 07, 2020, 02:18:58 pm »
The doubt of those that question the dropping of the bombs on Japan is more idiocy.

I believe the numbers I read through the years reflected 1 million+ projected Allied casualties.  From my perspective, given the choice between one USA soldier/sailor dying versus 1 million Japanese enemies, I vote for the 1 million Japanese enemies.  Anything other than that is a reflection of our failure as a nation to understand the meaning of war.

Now for some facts not mentioned.  Russia would not have participated in an all out attack on Japan, or at least no greater than the French participation in the landings of Normandy, which were token participation.  Russia declared war on Japan for one primary reason.  They knew that Japan had successfully tested a nuclear weapon in Korea, and they wanted to move in to the Korean peninsula and capture the documentation for that technology, which is exactly what they did.  Anyone here doubt for one minute given the opportunity the Japanese would most certainly have used a nuclear device on the USA?  If so, give your brain an enema, for it is not functioning!

Japan used bio weapons on the Chinese to test them for their ultimate use on the USA.  The Japanese had designed an eight engine bomber that they planned to fly halfway across the USA and dump/blanket bio weapons on the western half of the USA.  Again, anyone doubt for a minute the Japanese would have used these bio weapons on the USA if they just had more time.  Had we not used nuclear weapons,  they would have stalled long enough to make that a reality, which could have well changed the outcome of the war.

The USA made numerous overtures to the Japanese requesting their surrender.  They ignored those requests.  Ignored them.  Therefore, Harry Truman had no choice in the matter.  He made a wise decision, and it should never be questioned.  And those that do question it should be told to shut the f*&^ up, for they are idiots.

My father was in the Navy, in the Pacific theater, driving a landing craft fighting the Japanese.  He was at the battles of Saipan, Leyte, Luzon, Okinawa and a couple smaller actions on other islands.  The death he witnessed if you know anything about these battles was significant.  He refused my whole life to ever discuss it with me.  He took all that knowledge to the grave in terms of the actual battles.

But I will tell you a funny story.  He refused all MY life to ever say a word about the war to me, but one day, my son, his only grandson comes home from school and...

Son says, "Wasn't Grandpa in a war or something?"
Me... "Yes he was.  He fought in WWII against the Japanese in the Pacific.  He was in the Navy".
Son..."I have to do an audio interview of a war veteran as a school project.  Do you think Grandpa would let me interview him about his experiences?"
Me..."You can call and ask him, but I have to tell you, all my life I asked him about his experiences during the war, and he adamantly refused to ever discuss it.  So, if he tells you something like that, do not be disappointed, for he saw some gruesome things during the war, many men being killed before his eyes, etc, and I would be surprised if he would want to discuss it with you."

So, my son calls my father, and of course, you can imagine what he said without me telling you.  My son told him about the assignment, and my father says, "Sure Neil, come on over and ask me anything."  Ugggh!!  I was happy for my son, but it bothered me that he never wanted to talk to me, his own son.  I worshiped him, read every book on the shelf about WWII, and always wanted to know more.

As I mentioned, my son only needed audio, but I decided to film it on VHS, and strip out the audio later for his assignment.  At the time, my father was diagnosed with metastasized lung cancer.  He had a tumor in his esophogus, told he only had two months to live(he was 1.5 years into that 2 months, using shark cartilage to stay alive...another story), and he met my son about six months before his death with the promise to answer any of his questions.

So I sat down with my son, and told him, he is going to answer all your questions, and all of mine that I never got to ask when I was a kid.  We listed out all the questions my son was to ask, and we went over one evening and sat down with my father, who lived only 4 miles away.  I helped him structure the interview without questions regarding the blood and guts of it all, because I did not want to upset my father in his condition.  My son was happy to avoid all that too at 11 or 12 years of age.

First question my son asks that has HUGE significance to me to this day.  This interview happened the first half of 1995.

Son..."Grandpa, can you tell me if you recall, how you first heard about the attack of Pearl Harbor by the Japanese?"
Grandpa...[he was 16 years of age, living in Mt. Washington in Pittsburgh, for those of you that know Pittsburgh, and for those that don't, it is a high hill overlooking the downtown area of the City of Pittsburgh]  [he chuckles]  'well, me and my buddies, we headed down the hill into the city that evening, and when we got in town, there were people running about and we were told that the Japanese attacked us at Pearl Harbor.  Now there were 6 or 7 of us, and we all looked at each other and said, where is Pearl Harbor?'

Not one of these boys had any idea where Pearl Harbor was.  Flash forward to 9/11 and compare what was done on that day to the USA.  For me, pick a number, 9/11 was 10x. 100x worse than December 7th, the Pearl Harbor attack.  The Japanese attacked military targets in the hopes of knocking us out of the war with one blow, targets that had the ability to defend themselves, and on 9/11, it was civilian facilities that were attacked in our country.  For me, many times worse than what the Japanese did.  That is why I have such a strong dislike for George Bush and his tea and crumpets response to 9/11.  Had I been POTUS, there would not have been need to spend one dime on Afghanistan, for I would have leveled it, and not lost a moment's sleep over it. 

So, back to the bombs in Japan.  These bombs being dropped brought a fast end to the war.  It saved my father's life possibly from further risk in battle with the Japanese, and the lives of many others.  Anyone that knows the mindset of the Japanese, they largely fought to the death with every island we took in the Pacific.  A lot of Americans died in those battles.  Even after we thought we had secured islands, the remaining Japanese would slip out of their caves and slit the throats of sleeping GIs, etc.  The Japanese on their own mainland would have fought with great ferocity to defend their islands, killing many.  There just wasn't another choice for Truman.  NONE!!!

BTW, anyone that has doubts of just how murderous the Japanese were during the war, please read the book The Rape of Nanking.  The Japanese were murderous, evil people.  They lined up Chinese civilians and competed with one another to see how many they could kill with one bullet.  They tore unborn babies from pregnant women and tossed the babies in the air to see who could impale them with their bayonets, they buried people partially in the ground and had dogs devour them alive while they watched and cheered.  Believe me, the Germans during WWII with their atrocities were to use an Obama phrase, the JV team versus the Japanese and their penchant for murder and evil.

@jafo2010 my father was a U.S. Marine in the South Pacific during WWII and I have three uncles who crossed the beach at Normandy (Only one of them on D-Day and he's the one who made it all the way to Berlin. The others were wounded and Medevaced out but all survived)  From my earliest days, I recall those guys all winding up together at family gatherings or other social events talking among themselves.  Of course, if any of us younguns got near them they would clam up until we moved on. That remained so until I got back from Vietnam and they began to allow me in at times.
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Offline skeeter

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Re: The Atomic Attacks on Japan: Justified or Not?
« Reply #45 on: August 07, 2020, 02:27:51 pm »
Our Annual August Debate Over the Bombs
Victor Davis Hanson

https://townhall.com/columnists/victordavishanson/2020/08/06/our-annual-august-debate-over-the-bombs-n2573760

As we put time and distance between ourselves and the unimaginable suffering of WWII, not mentioning our ever-thinning skin, the annual self flagellation over the use of the atom bombs will only get worse.

I fully expect America will have surrendered to the Japanese before I go toes-up.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: The Atomic Attacks on Japan: Justified or Not?
« Reply #46 on: August 07, 2020, 09:10:50 pm »
As we put time and distance between ourselves and the unimaginable suffering of WWII, not mentioning our ever-thinning skin, the annual self flagellation over the use of the atom bombs will only get worse.

I fully expect America will have surrendered to the Japanese before I go toes-up.
If the Chinese don't steal it first.
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Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: The Atomic Attacks on Japan: Justified or Not?
« Reply #47 on: August 07, 2020, 09:19:58 pm »
It was justified, for a whole slew of reasons.  There are plenty of reasons to not like Harry Truman, this is NOT one of them.

We get this bullshit handwringing every August 6.  I just tell folks, "I would not be here to be a pain in your ass but for this great call."  I think others have mentioned upthread that our fathers were literally scheduled for first landings on the Main Island, after watching gruesome death in the island-hopping campaign across the South Pacific.  It was horrible.

My father was Navy, on a landing craft, heading for Japan Main Island when the news came over SSB that the war was OVER.  Done.  this was a couple months after being horrified FDR died in Warm Springs.  (I have been in the room where he had the cerebral hemorrhage while sitting for the "Unfinished Portrait.")
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
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Offline Slide Rule

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Re: The Atomic Attacks on Japan: Justified or Not?
« Reply #48 on: August 07, 2020, 09:36:45 pm »
Why the question?  Do we get a do over?


And could the do over be in Portland?
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Online Bigun

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Re: The Atomic Attacks on Japan: Justified or Not?
« Reply #49 on: August 07, 2020, 09:39:17 pm »
Quote
Our Annual August Debate Over the Bombs

And for what exactly?
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien