Author Topic: Stephen Moore’s Big Idea: Replace federal income tax with national sales tax  (Read 1115 times)

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Online Elderberry

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Who bears the burden of a national retail sales tax?

https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/who-bears-burden-national-retail-sales-tax

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A national retail sales tax would create a wedge between the prices consumers pay and the amount sellers receive. Theory and evidence suggest that the tax would be passed along to consumers via higher prices.

Because lower-income households spend a greater share of their income than higher-income households do, the burden of a retail sales tax is regressive when measured as a share of current income: the tax burden as a share of income is highest for low-income households and falls sharply as household income rises. The burden of a sales tax is more proportional to income when measured as a share of income over a lifetime. Even by a lifetime income measure, however, the burden of a sales tax as a share of income is lower for high-income households than for other households: a sales tax (like any consumption tax) does not tax the returns (such as dividends and capital gains) from new capital investment and income from capital makes up a larger portion of the total income of high-income households.

Online Bigun

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That is just plain not true with the Fairtax which is the ONLY tax plan out there that truly and completely untaxes the poor so that they can get started on building a career.

Educate yourself!  https://fairtax-structure-psyclone.netdna-ssl.com/client_assets/fairtaxorg/media/attachments/56c4/aa29/6970/2d1d/5600/0000/56c4aa2969702d1d56000000.pdf?1455729193

Online catfish1957

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People (currently about 45% of the voting public) who perceive that they pay no taxes do not care what the costs are!

Wait a minute.  So let me run this sceanrio by you....  (and based on your arbitrary 23% flat VAT, and a 1 Jan 2024 implementation)

Joe Poor who pays no federal income tax, and is oblivous to news or even keeps up with anything involving politics goes to the Grocery Store and finds that his EBT card which has about $100 credit won't pay for his routine bill, and has to take items out his cart to net out the newly updated $123 bill

Susy Millenial has her eyes set on the 2024 Toyota Corolla, but has just found out that the drive out price of that cute little car just went up $10K.  Sadly she has to instead sink more money into her junker.

Greedy Catfish has been wanting a new Truck, but with the mindset of not having to give the government one penny more than he has to, decides to pass on the transaction. 

You really think people are indofferent in that way?  Because there has been plenty of angst about taxes in our history from Boston in 1773, to FDR's 94% upper tax bracket in the '40's. 
I display the Confederate Battle Flag in honor of my great great great grandfathers who spilled blood at Wilson's Creek and Shiloh.  5 others served in the WBTS with honor too.

Online Bigun

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Wait a minute.  So let me run this sceanrio by you....  (and based on your arbitrary 23% flat VAT, and a 1 Jan 2024 implementation)

What I'm proposing is NOT a VAT in any shape , form or fashion!  it is a point of retail sale only SALES TAX on NEW goods and services only.

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Joe Poor who pays no federal income tax, and is oblivous to news or even keeps up with anything involving politics goes to the Grocery Store and finds that his EBT card which has about $100 credit won't pay for his routine bill, and has to take items out his cart to net out the newly updated $123 bill

Nope! Joe poor and everyone else who is a United States Citizen, would get a check every month from the government for the taxes on his spending up to the poverty level as determined by HHS.  In addition, when all of the current tax overhead is wrung out of prices they will not be any more than they currently are. Especially true of things with long supply chains.  And further, the most regressive taxes Joe Poor pays (SSI and medicare payrole taxes) (he pays on the very first dollar earned) are GONE!


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Susy Millenial has her eyes set on the 2024 Toyota Corolla, but has just found out that the drive out price of that cute little car just went up $10K.  Sadly she has to instead sink more money into her junker.
 

How much money does Susy have to earn under the present system in order to have the cash available to make that purchase?  Under the FAirtax she who have to earn whatever the shelf price is including the tax and since that Toyota is a very long supply chain Item that price, including tax is going to be much less than it is today.

Quote
Greedy Catfish has been wanting a new Truck, but with the mindset of not having to give the government one penny more than he has to, decides to pass on the transaction.


Greedy Catfish will have a hell of a lot more money in his pocket because he now gets his ENTIRE paycheck and the price of that truck will be less then it was under the old system.

Quote
You really think people are indofferent in that way?  Because there has been plenty of angst about taxes in our history from Boston in 1773, to FDR's 94% upper tax bracket in the '40's.

What I can tell you is that excises (taxes) on article of consumption is the ONLY tax system the founder universally endorsed.

"It is a signal advantage of taxes on articles of consumption that they contain in their own nature a security against excess. They prescribe their own limit, which cannot be exceeded without defeating the end proposed - that is, an extension of the revenue.
 
When applied to this object, the saying is as just as it is witty that, "in political arithmetic, two and two do not always make four." If duties are too high, they lessen the consumption; the collection is eluded; and the product to the treasury is not so great as when they are confined within proper and moderate bounds. This forms a complete barrier against any material oppression of the citizens by taxes of this class, and is itself a natural limitation of the power of imposing them.


Federalist #21

There was no anti-federalist response.

Online Elderberry

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The Trouble with the FairTax

https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxvox/trouble-fairtax

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In fact, it’s the bottom third of the economy who benefit the most from the Fair Tax, and the people at the top third who benefit the least. Everybody benefits some. That tax study is one that has been discredited by the people who spent over $20 million, very thoughtful economic study developing the FairTax. It’s not just some political idea.

 The tax is designed to protect low-income people from higher taxes via a large new cash transfer program called a “prebate.”  Every household would get a cash transfer equal to the amount of tax that a family at the poverty level would owe.  (Ironically, this would be the largest welfare program in history.)

The problem is that very high-income households spend only a fraction of their income, while low- and middle-income people spend all or most of what they make.   A sales tax, by design, exempts a large share of income at the top.  If it includes a prebate to protect people at the bottom and doesn’t add to the deficit, then it must raise taxes on people in the middle.

The Panel also found that the prebate would be extremely expensive, hard for taxpayers to manage, and complex for the IRS to administer.   In addition, the panel was concerned  a federal retail sales tax rate of 30 percent or more would result in widespread evasion and create real problems for states that rely heavily on their own sales taxes.

FairTax advocates counter that their proposal would also replace regressive payroll and excise taxes (as well as highly progressive estate taxes), but the bottom line is that tax burdens on middle-income households would surely rise while high-income families would get a big tax cut.

Some people might call that an UnfairTax.

Online sneakypete

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Never. Gonna. Happen.

@Fishrrman

Nope.

Mostly because there would be no way for the "Trust Fund Parasites" to avoid paying taxes if it were.

It would also put a huge amount of tax attorney's out of work.
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As that famous philosopher Goober Gore noted,"Whutz sposta be up iz doawn,and whutz sposta be doawn iz up!"

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The Trouble with the FairTax
Quote
The tax is designed to protect low-income people from higher taxes via a large new cash transfer program called a “prebate.”  Every household would get a cash transfer equal to the amount of tax that a family at the poverty level would owe.  (Ironically, this would be the largest welfare program in history.)
https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxvox/trouble-fairtax

Now, I wonder.....What agency will compute all that and mail out the "prebates?"   :pondering:
We need to re-coin the expression, "Press Bias" to "Media Bigotry."
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Online sneakypete

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45 of the 50 states already have sales tax collection mechanisms in place and accommodating a NRST would require them to add a few lines of code to their software for which they would be well compensated.  And Yes, I'm  perfectly onboard with giving states more control over the feral government.

@Bigun

Ahhhh,glad to see someone else spelling it correctly!
Ever think you would be arrested for NOT wearing a mask when entering a convenience store?

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Online Bigun

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@Fishrrman

Nope.

Mostly because there would be no way for the "Trust Fund Parasites" to avoid paying taxes if it were.

It would also put a huge amount of tax attorney's out of work.

Not to mention taking away all the opportunities for social engineering projects the current Marxist income tax system provides the little darlings in Washington who lord over us.

The ONLY way this happens is a ground up demand that can no longer be suppressed and those of us who advocate for it have known that from day one.


Online Bigun

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https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxvox/trouble-fairtax


Now, I wonder.....What agency will compute all that and mail out the "prebates?"   :pondering:

HHS computes the poverty rate. The social security Administration does the actual transfers.  ALL in the bill if anyone would bother to read it.

https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/25?q=%7B%22search%22%3A%5B%22HR25%22%5D%7D&s=2&r=1

« Last Edit: July 26, 2020, 01:00:26 PM by Bigun »

Online Cyber Liberty

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HHS computes the poverty rate. The social security Administration does the actual transfers.  ALL in the bill if anyone would bother to ready it.

I'm against the whole idea of "prebates."  They offer an excellent hook for turning taxing authority right back into social engineering, which is what we are trying to get rid of.  Why build mischief-making into the structure of the tax?
We need to re-coin the expression, "Press Bias" to "Media Bigotry."
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Online Bigun

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I'm against the whole idea of "prebates."  They offer an excellent hook for turning taxing authority right back into social engineering, which is what we are trying to get rid of.  Why build mischief-making into the structure of the tax?

So am I, but the fact is that the little darlings in Washington start yelling REGRESSIVE (its really not but they don't get economics any better then joe six-pack) at the top of their lungs without it.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2020, 01:09:26 PM by Bigun »

Online catfish1957

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What I'm proposing is NOT a VAT in any shape , form or fashion!  it is a point of retail sale only SALES TAX on NEW goods and services only.

VAT or non-VAT....  still does not impact the vaiidity of my argument.

Nope! Joe poor and everyone else who is a United States Citizen, would get a check every month from the government for the taxes on his spending up to the poverty level as determined by HHS.  In addition, when all of the current tax overhead is wrung out of prices they will not be any more than they currently are. Especially true of things with long supply chains.  And further, the most regressive taxes Joe Poor pays (SSI and medicare payrole taxes) (he pays on the very first dollar earned) are GONE!

WTF???  Everyone gets a check up front? Up to poverty level?  So you are basically exempting everything spent up to $30K annually give or take?  And @ 23% afterwards?  And this is supposed to be tax revenue nuetral?  Skeptical is the least of my comments on that one.

 

How much money does Susy have to earn under the present system in order to have the cash available to make that purchase?  Under the FAirtax she who have to earn whatever the shelf price is including the tax and since that Toyota is a very long supply chain Item that price, including tax is going to be much less than it is today.

Assume Suzy is of moderate income (my intent).  Your comment concerning supply chain savings is really puzzling.  You really think that will drop the cost of that vehicle by that $10K surcharge.  Nope...   We might be talking $100's at most.
 

Greedy Catfish will have a hell of a lot more money in his pocket because he now gets his ENTIRE paycheck and the price of that truck will be less then it was under the old system.

No Greedy Catfish, and others  will save that money, and withhold it from the economy.  How does your system address budget shortfalls, capital gains, estate taxes, etc.  Seems the system you are is more aligned to payroll and general income, where is the accounting for shortfalls in those areas?  Don't get me wrong, I would be the first to raise the banner of lower taxes, but I also am keen to when someone starts the smoke and mirrors light show, and the snake oil cocktails start flowing

What I can tell you is that excises (taxes) on article of consumption is the ONLY tax system the founder universally endorsed.

Blame 150 or so years of fed imposed bureacracy that have usurped peoples money and power.  It's been a slow and steady creep of rot.  It's going to take more than this to reverse that.  Like I previously said.....   The headwinds are of hurricane force, and the force leading the charge is too small and too weak.  If there is change, tax revolt would  be just one part of that revoution.  But again, I am not holding my breath.  The sheeple are too meek.


I display the Confederate Battle Flag in honor of my great great great grandfathers who spilled blood at Wilson's Creek and Shiloh.  5 others served in the WBTS with honor too.

Online Bigun

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OK! I'm all for more savings!

And you are completely wrong about how much prices would drop. Especially on long supply chain items because all that tax an compliance cost overhead I have previously mentioned cascades all the way up and own that supply chain. 

The guy who digs up the iron ore includes ALL of his costs in his prices to the smelter and on and on and on!

I am under no illusions as to the headwinds @catfish1957 I am trying to save a little of what remains of the republic for my posterity.

Edit to add: The revenew neutral rate would be about 17% without the prebate feature.

« Last Edit: July 26, 2020, 01:26:34 PM by Bigun »

Online Elderberry

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https://alliedprogress.org/news/a-tax-day-reminder-stephen-moores-tax-ideas-are-so-bad-they-wrecked-kansas-economy/

Stephen Moore Was One Of The “Principal Architects” Of Kansas Governor Sam Brownback’s “Massive Tax Cuts,” Which Did Not Create The Economic Boom He Predicted. “But those who will evaluate the revised Trump tax cut proposal should keep something in mind: Moore and Laffer were principal architects of Kansas Governor Sam Brownback’s massive tax cuts, and their predictions that those tax cuts would spur an ‘immediate’ Kansas economic boom have proved strikingly inaccurate.” [Michael Mazerov, “Kansas’ Tax Cut Experience Refutes Economic Growth Predictions of Trump Tax Advisors,” Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, 08/12/16]

Although Brownback Promised That The Tax Cuts Would Be A “‘Shot Of Adrenaline’” To The Economy When They Were Passed By The Legislature In 2012, Kansas’ Revenues Fell, Its Economy Grew At A Slower Rate Than The Rest Of The Nation, And The State Cut Investment In Education And Infrastructure. “In 2012, the Republican governor pushed reforms through the state Legislature that dramatically cut income taxes across the board. Brownback boasted the plan would deliver a ‘shot of adrenaline’ to the Kansas economy. Revenues shrank, and the economy grew more slowly than in neighboring states and the country as a whole. Kansas’ bond rating plummeted, and the state cut funding to education and infrastructure.” [Jeremy Hobson, Dean Russell, and Samantha Raphelson, “As Trump Proposes Tax Cuts, Kansas Deals With Aftermath Of Experiment,” NPR, 10/25/17]

Just Four Years After Governor Brownback’s Tax Experiment Was Enacted, Kansas’ Republican Legislature “Voted To Roll Back The Tax Cuts,” And The State Was Still Struggling To Close A $900 Million Deficit As Of Late 2017. In 2016, “the Republican-controlled state Legislature voted to roll back the tax cuts, but Kansas is still dealing with the aftermath of this bold experiment. State lawmakers are now seeking to close a $900 million budget gap over the next two years.” [Jeremy Hobson, Dean Russell, and Samantha Raphelson, “As Trump Proposes Tax Cuts, Kansas Deals With Aftermath Of Experiment,” NPR, 10/25/17]

Despite The Havoc It Wreaked On Kansas’ Economy, Stephen Moore Maintained Just Last Year That The Kansas Plan Was “Mostly Very Positive,” While Admitting That “The Revenues Didn’t Come In As Anticipated.”

Online catfish1957

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Despite The Havoc It Wreaked On Kansas’ Economy, Stephen Moore Maintained Just Last Year That The Kansas Plan Was “Mostly Very Positive,” While Admitting That “The Revenues Didn’t Come In As Anticipated.”

Kind of exactly where I was going with the whole discussion.  Things like shortalls in estate taxes, and captial gains as examples, just don't seem to be taken account in the equation.
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Online Bigun

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https://alliedprogress.org/news/a-tax-day-reminder-stephen-moores-tax-ideas-are-so-bad-they-wrecked-kansas-economy/

Stephen Moore Was One Of The “Principal Architects” Of Kansas Governor Sam Brownback’s “Massive Tax Cuts,” Which Did Not Create The Economic Boom He Predicted. “But those who will evaluate the revised Trump tax cut proposal should keep something in mind: Moore and Laffer were principal architects of Kansas Governor Sam Brownback’s massive tax cuts, and their predictions that those tax cuts would spur an ‘immediate’ Kansas economic boom have proved strikingly inaccurate.” [Michael Mazerov, “Kansas’ Tax Cut Experience Refutes Economic Growth Predictions of Trump Tax Advisors,” Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, 08/12/16]

Although Brownback Promised That The Tax Cuts Would Be A “‘Shot Of Adrenaline’” To The Economy When They Were Passed By The Legislature In 2012, Kansas’ Revenues Fell, Its Economy Grew At A Slower Rate Than The Rest Of The Nation, And The State Cut Investment In Education And Infrastructure. “In 2012, the Republican governor pushed reforms through the state Legislature that dramatically cut income taxes across the board. Brownback boasted the plan would deliver a ‘shot of adrenaline’ to the Kansas economy. Revenues shrank, and the economy grew more slowly than in neighboring states and the country as a whole. Kansas’ bond rating plummeted, and the state cut funding to education and infrastructure.” [Jeremy Hobson, Dean Russell, and Samantha Raphelson, “As Trump Proposes Tax Cuts, Kansas Deals With Aftermath Of Experiment,” NPR, 10/25/17]

Just Four Years After Governor Brownback’s Tax Experiment Was Enacted, Kansas’ Republican Legislature “Voted To Roll Back The Tax Cuts,” And The State Was Still Struggling To Close A $900 Million Deficit As Of Late 2017. In 2016, “the Republican-controlled state Legislature voted to roll back the tax cuts, but Kansas is still dealing with the aftermath of this bold experiment. State lawmakers are now seeking to close a $900 million budget gap over the next two years.” [Jeremy Hobson, Dean Russell, and Samantha Raphelson, “As Trump Proposes Tax Cuts, Kansas Deals With Aftermath Of Experiment,” NPR, 10/25/17]

Despite The Havoc It Wreaked On Kansas’ Economy, Stephen Moore Maintained Just Last Year That The Kansas Plan Was “Mostly Very Positive,” While Admitting That “The Revenues Didn’t Come In As Anticipated.”

What Went Wrong In Kansas? Maybe Nothing

Quote
I think it's too early to tell if the Kansas experiment was a failure. It may be that the tax cuts have not been given enough time, because tax changes rarely have immediate consequences at the state level. I have often pointed out that tax increases almost never harm the economy in the short run. Neither businesses nor people move immediately after a tax increase. Corporations don't sell their plants and equipment and move their workforce on short notice. And people don't sell their houses, quit their country clubs, or take their kids out of school because the income tax rate goes up. I believe that increasing tax burdens harms economic development in the long run -- it doesn't happen overnight.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/taxanalysts/2014/07/16/what-went-wrong-in-kansas-maybe-nothing/#44627efa5ddc

Online Bigun

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Kind of exactly where I was going with the whole discussion.  Things like shortalls in estate taxes, and captial gains as examples, just don't seem to be taken account in the equation.

But they are: https://fairtax.org/research-library/the-economy

Online catfish1957

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But they are: https://fairtax.org/research-library/the-economy

There is nothing in that linked articled which addresses shortfalls in either of those tax inlays.
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Failed tax-cut experiment in Kansas should guide national leaders

https://thehill.com/opinion/finance/418768-kansas-voters-render-final-verdict-on-failed-tax-cut-experiment

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The reason for the failure of the Brownback experiment, and the likely failure of the Trump tax cuts, is that they didn’t account for the ways that economic inequality today obstructs, distorts and subverts the pathways to economic growth that is strong, stable and broadly shared.

They ignore extensive evidence of what — in fact — drives economic growth and stability and can deliver improvements in living standards.

Instead, they reflect supply-side economics, as trumpeted by Arthur Laffer, who was a paid consultant for the Brownback plan and a volunteer cheerleader for the Trump tax cuts. Laffer’s theory of growth has been a foundation for economic policies since the 1980s. 

There is an alternative explanation for how the economy grows. A strong economy comes from a society where good ideas and talented people are not obstructed from economic opportunity.

It’s when investors don’t have distorted incentives but rather see that a strong middle class is ready and able to purchase the goods and services their firms produce.



Online catfish1957

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Failed tax-cut experiment in Kansas should guide national leaders

https://thehill.com/opinion/finance/418768-kansas-voters-render-final-verdict-on-failed-tax-cut-experiment

Since I pretty much budget down to the dollar, I (if capital gains taxes are outlawed or excluded) have calculated that Mr. Brownback's changes would save me $73,298 the first  year in taxes alone.  Sign me up. !!!! :cool:

And I am just one person.  No one is gonna let this pipe dream fly!!!!!
I display the Confederate Battle Flag in honor of my great great great grandfathers who spilled blood at Wilson's Creek and Shiloh.  5 others served in the WBTS with honor too.

Online Bigun

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There is nothing in that linked articled which addresses shortfalls in either of those tax inlays.

There is plenty in those article that addresses all the taxes that are repealed which includes those you mentioned.

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A strong economy comes from a society where good ideas and talented people are not obstructed from economic opportunity.


Yep! And the Marxist income tax obstructs people from economic opportunity at every turn whereas the Fairtax would allow anyone to open or expand a business without first spending one second of time or one penny of money investigating the tax implications of that move.

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There is plenty in those article that addresses all the taxes that are repealed which includes those you mentioned.

Okay I dug, and found it.  Everything is deep sixed.    Seems in almost all cases everyone wins, and pays less taxes. I sure do, to the tone of $73K.    So just where do you find the skittle pooping unicorns that generate enough keeps Fedzilla fed and solvent?   Seems like smoke and mirrors at this point.
I display the Confederate Battle Flag in honor of my great great great grandfathers who spilled blood at Wilson's Creek and Shiloh.  5 others served in the WBTS with honor too.

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Okay I dug, and found it.  Everything is deep sixed.    Seems in almost all cases everyone wins, and pays less taxes. I sure do, to the tone of $73K.    So just where do you find the skittle pooping unicorns that generate enough keeps Fedzilla fed and solvent?   Seems like smoke and mirrors at this point.

From the folks who currently pay no "income" taxes mainly despite what may seem to you.  The fact is that the Fairtax bill is very likely the single most researched bill (about $30 Million all privately paid for) ever put before Congress.

The fairtax base is hugely larger than that of the current mess! 

https://fairtax-structure-psyclone.netdna-ssl.com/client_assets/fairtaxorg/media/attachments/56c4/aec2/6970/2d1c/f608/0000/56c4aec269702d1cf6080000.pdf?1455730370


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