Author Topic: Stephen Moore’s Big Idea: Replace federal income tax with national sales tax  (Read 1113 times)

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Offline The_Reader_David

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Good policy idea, but it requires the repeal of the 16th Amendment.  Otherwise, you know that within two Congressional election cycles of the replacement of the federal income tax with a national sales tax (personally I prefer a VAT, but that's another matter) we'll have both and never be able to get rid of either.
And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know what this was all about.

Online Bigun

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Good policy idea, but it requires the repeal of the 16th Amendment.  Otherwise, you know that within two Congressional election cycles of the replacement of the federal income tax with a national sales tax (personally I prefer a VAT, but that's another matter) we'll have both and never be able to get rid of either.

That (repealing of the 16th) is also a feature of the Fairtax legislation. Mind telling me why you would prefer a VAT over a NRST @The_Reader_David That mystifies me.

BTW: The 16th amendment does not require an income tax.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2020, 10:43:30 AM by Bigun »

Online Bigun

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Can anyone here imagine what would happen in this country if you could start or expand a business without having to spend so much a one second of time or one penny of money considering the tax implications of doing so?  I can!

Online Bigun

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BTW: This is by no means Steven Moore's idea. This kind of taxation was universally endorsed by our founders and Bill Archer (R, Texas) reintroduced it to the congress back in the 1970s

Offline Slide Rule

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I have directly addressed it and will do so again for your benefit @Slide Rule

What is being proposed here is not ANY form of income tax but rather National Retail Sales Tax (NRST) that taxes New goods and services one time only at the point of retail sale. There would be no need for the goobermint to know even so much as one's name for it to operate and definitely no need for anything like the IRS. In fact, the legislation specifically does away with the IRS and requires the destruction of its records.


F R E E D O M ! ! !


Since when has a lack of need prevented government from doing anything?

I like the idea, but we have too many greedy bas!ards in Washington.

I really dislike being on the opposite side of any of your concepts.

Al
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Offline The_Reader_David

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That (repealing of the 16th) is also a feature of the Fairtax legislation. Mind telling me why you would prefer a VAT over a NRST @The_Reader_David That mystifies me.

BTW: The 16th amendment does not require an income tax.

VATs are less intrusive at the consumer level and put more of the burden of collection on larger businesses.  The mom and pop store or Amazon reseller doesn't add value by selling goods, that's done at the production/importation level so they wouldn't have to do anything by way of tax collection and payment (direct to the government) but would be responsible for collecting a NRST.  The producer (usually a larger business) adds value, pays VAT and passes it on as a cost to the wholesaler or retailer who sells the goods. VAT or NRST is a wash for folks selling goods at farmers markets or handicrafts on Etsy they'd have to pony up both to the government and collect them from customers, but for most commerce, the onus for collecting and reporting a VAT will be on enterprises that can afford accounting and legal departments.
And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know what this was all about.

Online jmyrlefuller

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That (repealing of the 16th) is also a feature of the Fairtax legislation.
You can't repeal a Constitutional amendment with legislation—only with another amendment, which means supermajority of Congress, 38 state legislatures... or an Article V convention, which requires 34 state legislatures.
"The people (...) have had enough of experts from organizations with acronyms, saying that they know what is best, and getting it consistently wrong." —Michael Gove

Online EdinVA

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VATs are less intrusive at the consumer level and put more of the burden of collection on larger businesses.  The mom and pop store or Amazon reseller doesn't add value by selling goods, that's done at the production/importation level so they wouldn't have to do anything by way of tax collection and payment (direct to the government) but would be responsible for collecting a NRST.  The producer (usually a larger business) adds value, pays VAT and passes it on as a cost to the wholesaler or retailer who sells the goods. VAT or NRST is a wash for folks selling goods at farmers markets or handicrafts on Etsy they'd have to pony up both to the government and collect them from customers, but for most commerce, the onus for collecting and reporting a VAT will be on enterprises that can afford accounting and legal departments.
If you assemble a bicycle/lawn mower, Mount a tire, paint a car you add value..... I think the wording of the regulation needs to be very very clear...

Online jmyrlefuller

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If you assemble a bicycle/lawn mower, Mount a tire, paint a car you add value..... I think the wording of the regulation needs to be very very clear...
Only when you sell it—though in those cases, depreciation will far outweigh the value you add. Which brings up an interesting point: if you use the VAT, do you get a rebate for selling a used care after it depreciates? After all, it's like adding a negative value.
"The people (...) have had enough of experts from organizations with acronyms, saying that they know what is best, and getting it consistently wrong." —Michael Gove

Online EdinVA

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Only when you sell it—though in those cases, depreciation will far outweigh the value you add. Which brings up an interesting point: if you use the VAT, do you get a rebate for selling a used care after it depreciates? After all, it's like adding a negative value.

hmmm.. If we "do away with the IRS" then would there be a way to realize a depreciation?
I am all for exploring these concepts and dumping the power of the IRS but we gotta be careful that we have our parachute on before we jump.

Online Bigun

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hmmm.. If we "do away with the IRS" then would there be a way to realize a depreciation?
I am all for exploring these concepts and dumping the power of the IRS but we gotta be careful that we have our parachute on before we jump.

It is a mystery to me @EdinVA why folks have so much trouble getting their minds wrapped around the FACT that with a NRST such as the Fairtax ALL of this worrying about how much income one makes and it's sources goes away completely!  You would be able to make all the money you want from whatever source you want and NONE of it ever gets taxed until YOU spend it on a new good or service. 

Mr. Billionaire, who lives lavishly and has the ability to manage things so as to realize little to no ''Income"  with the current system would pay his share under the NRST as well as would Mr. Drugdealer,  Ms Streetwaker and her pimp. etc. etc.

Online Bigun

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Since when has a lack of need prevented government from doing anything?

I like the idea, but we have too many greedy bas!ards in Washington.

I really dislike being on the opposite side of any of your concepts.

Al

@Slide Rule and those greedy bastards in Washington currently have and shouldn't a VERY large weapon (the IRS) which they use all the time to bludgeon us with!  ALL they need to do to destroy anyone of us is make an allegation and even if you eventually win you lose because they have WAY more lawyers and $$$ than you do.  They can and do break people and never even say they are sorry when it's all over after you've beaten them in court but find yourself broke and with no hope of recovering a dime of the money you spent fighting them.

Online EdinVA

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It is a mystery to me @EdinVA why folks have so much trouble getting their minds wrapped around the FACT that with a NRST such as the Fairtax ALL of this worrying about how much income one makes and it's sources goes away completely!  You would be able to make all the money you want from whatever source you want and NONE of it ever gets taxed until YOU spend it on a new good or service. 

Mr. Billionaire, who lives lavishly and has the ability to manage things so as to realize little to no ''Income"  with the current system would pay his share under the NRST as well as would Mr. Drugdealer,  Ms Streetwaker and her pimp. etc. etc.
Don't forget the 20 million illegals...  :whistle:

Online Bigun

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Don't forget the 20 million illegals...  :whistle:

Yes indeed!  And the beauty part of that is that they would ALL pay at the maximum rate!

Online catfish1957

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The day you "abolish the IRS" is the day you eliminate taxation altogether—which of course will never happen. As long as there are taxes, there will be an IRS to collect them in some form.

My $.02 on this idea....'


(1) Others also seem oblivious to the fact that there are other nefarious functions within the IRS to torment, control, or leverage the populus or tip the scales of balance politically?  Did everyone forget how one particular president used the IRS to give certain entities exemption status or not.  Executive and Legislative Branches are not going to cede that power.

(2) Tax will be seen as highly regressive in nature.  In this system every shares in the tax burden uniformly.  That will never get by the obstructive left, will never get the legislative support, and even if it did, would be subjected to so much court review.....   It'd die in the next administration, or party change.

(3) Early on, the added up front sales tax...  15%, 20%?  would have adverse purchase impacts of perceived initial higher cost.  I know that sounds ludicrous, but when you have most of the population living pay check to paycheck, and no savings......    Fiscal IQ of the average American is poor. 

(4) New system will be as rife with fraud and circumvention  as the old.  New levels of black market systems on large ticket items will be rampant.  Barter will expand exponentially.  People will buy foreign, outside the watchfall eyes of sales tax collectors.  Tax inlays will come up woefully short of expectations.

Don't get me wrong.  I would absolutely love a natiional sales tax, becasue I am a miser, obsessive investor, spendthrift, and would come out a huge winner in this kind of change.  But the one thing that puts a dagger in this idea at square 1, is that removing complicated enforcement driven taxation is a tool and a weapon that our government will not relinquish.
I display the Confederate Battle Flag in honor of my great great great grandfathers who spilled blood at Wilson's Creek and Shiloh.  5 others served in the WBTS with honor too.

Online Bigun

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My $.02 on this idea....'


(1) Others also seem oblivious to the fact that there are other nefarious functions within the IRS to torment, control, or leverage the populus or tip the scales of balance politically?  Did everyone forget how one particular president used the IRS to give certain entities exemption status or not.  Executive and Legislative Branches are not going to cede that power.

(2) Tax will be seen as highly regressive in nature.  In this system every shares in the tax burden uniformly.  That will never get by the obstructive left, will never get the legislative support, and even if it did, would be subjected to so much court review.....   It'd die in the next administration, or party change.

(3) Early on, the added up front sales tax...  15%, 20%?  would have adverse purchase impacts of perceived initial higher cost.  I know that sounds ludicrous, but when you have most of the population living pay check to paycheck, and no savings......    Fiscal IQ of the average American is poor. 

(4) New system will be as rife with fraud and circumvention  as the old.  New levels of black market systems on large ticket items will be rampant.  Barter will expand exponentially.  People will buy foreign, outside the watchfall eyes of sales tax collectors.  Tax inlays will come up woefully short of expectations.

Don't get me wrong.  I would absolutely love a natiional sales tax, becasue I am a miser, obsessive investor, spendthrift, and would come out a huge winner in this kind of change.  But the one thing that puts a dagger in this idea at square 1, is that removing complicated enforcement driven taxation is a tool and a weapon that our government will not relinquish.

Neat Plausible and entirely wrong!

Read this and this and then get back to me.

This is a very good paper as well.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2020, 11:02:44 AM by Bigun »

Online catfish1957

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Neat Plausible and entirely wrong!

Read this and this and then get back to me.

This is a very good paper as well.

Bigun, I see you as an ally, and we see eye to eye on so many things here. 

But I hate to tell you, nothing in those papers proves me wrong what I mentioned above.   Like I said....   I'd love a flat sales tax on the populus....    But it will never happen.   We'll just have to agree to disagree.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2020, 11:12:56 AM by catfish1957 »
I display the Confederate Battle Flag in honor of my great great great grandfathers who spilled blood at Wilson's Creek and Shiloh.  5 others served in the WBTS with honor too.

Online EdinVA

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My $.02 on this idea....'


(1) Others also seem oblivious to the fact that there are other nefarious functions within the IRS to torment, control, or leverage the populus or tip the scales of balance politically?  Did everyone forget how one particular president used the IRS to give certain entities exemption status or not.  Executive and Legislative Branches are not going to cede that power.

(2) Tax will be seen as highly regressive in nature.  In this system every shares in the tax burden uniformly.  That will never get by the obstructive left, will never get the legislative support, and even if it did, would be subjected to so much court review.....   It'd die in the next administration, or party change.

(3) Early on, the added up front sales tax...  15%, 20%?  would have adverse purchase impacts of perceived initial higher cost.  I know that sounds ludicrous, but when you have most of the population living pay check to paycheck, and no savings......    Fiscal IQ of the average American is poor. 

(4) New system will be as rife with fraud and circumvention  as the old.  New levels of black market systems on large ticket items will be rampant.  Barter will expand exponentially.  People will buy foreign, outside the watchfall eyes of sales tax collectors.  Tax inlays will come up woefully short of expectations.

Don't get me wrong.  I would absolutely love a natiional sales tax, becasue I am a miser, obsessive investor, spendthrift, and would come out a huge winner in this kind of change.  But the one thing that puts a dagger in this idea at square 1, is that removing complicated enforcement driven taxation is a tool and a weapon that our government will not relinquish.
We cannot afford to go along to get along, it is time to shake the tree...
we may not accomplish all we want but if we don't try, we will surely drown in the swamp

Online Bigun

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We cannot afford to go along to get along, it is time to shake the tree...
we may not accomplish all we want but if we don't try, we will surely drown in the swamp

 :yowsa: pointing-up

If we wait for those little darlings in Washington who love their ability to use the taxcode for their social engineering projects we will get just exactly what we deserve!
« Last Edit: July 26, 2020, 11:36:34 AM by Bigun »

Online Bigun

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VATs are less intrusive at the consumer level and put more of the burden of collection on larger businesses.  The mom and pop store or Amazon reseller doesn't add value by selling goods, that's done at the production/importation level so they wouldn't have to do anything by way of tax collection and payment (direct to the government) but would be responsible for collecting a NRST.  The producer (usually a larger business) adds value, pays VAT and passes it on as a cost to the wholesaler or retailer who sells the goods. VAT or NRST is a wash for folks selling goods at farmers markets or handicrafts on Etsy they'd have to pony up both to the government and collect them from customers, but for most commerce, the onus for collecting and reporting a VAT will be on enterprises that can afford accounting and legal departments.

Less intrusive and completely hidden form the taxpayer @The_Reader_David .  How the heck are we ever going to get a handle on government spending if taxpayers don't know what all this government is costing them?

Online catfish1957

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We cannot afford to go along to get along, it is time to shake the tree...
we may not accomplish all we want but if we don't try, we will surely drown in the swamp

Again, I'm game. I love the idea.  What I wouldn't give to save a week of my life having to prepare tax returns.

But, and using CW analogies, doing this will be the equivalent of George Pickett's 4th of July charge. 

Our enemy has the high ground.  Wouldn't be prudent to yield our bayonets (political capital)  toward socialist takeover rather than tax reform?  i.e choose another battlefield. 

Once you add all left of center to 95% of government fighting this?  It will never get traction.

I display the Confederate Battle Flag in honor of my great great great grandfathers who spilled blood at Wilson's Creek and Shiloh.  5 others served in the WBTS with honor too.

Offline Victoria33

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Our government uses so much money, the price on goods to bring in all that money would make items so expensive, one could not buy them.

An side:  If China stops sending us goods, the US will fall as most of our medicines come from there and most of the goods we buy come from there.

Right now, we have a man cutting our yard and he works at Nebraska Furniture.  They had laid him off due to closing the place and now he is back working there except he said they have little furniture to sell because it comes from China and they aren't sending furniture to them.  He said they would get it from China, but he did not know when shipments will start again.

Online catfish1957

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Less intrusive and completely hidden form the taxpayer @The_Reader_David .  How the heck are we ever going to get a handle on government spending if taxpayers don't know what all this government is costing them?

This matter and issue was lost 4 POTUS' ago, when deficit spending went into logrithmic escalation. I hate to keep sounding defeatist, but when we screamed this 20 years ago the sheeple chose not to react. 

Now fast forward.  Just wait till the socialist dims tell the 44% of Americans who do not pay fed income tax that they now have to pony up to the trough in what they will view as an extra  XX% surcharge......  You don't think rioting won't escalate?
I display the Confederate Battle Flag in honor of my great great great grandfathers who spilled blood at Wilson's Creek and Shiloh.  5 others served in the WBTS with honor too.

Online Bigun

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Our government uses so much money, the price on goods to bring in all that money would make items so expensive, one could not buy them.

An side:  If China stops sending us goods, the US will fall as most of our medicines come from there and most of the goods we buy come from there.

Right now, we have a man cutting our yard and he works at Nebraska Furniture.  They had laid him off due to closing the place and now he is back working there except he said they have little furniture to sell because it comes from China and they aren't sending furniture to them.  He said they would get it from China, but he did not know when shipments will start again.

BS!  You are paying far more today that is HIDDEN in prices due to the Corporate income tax and its compliance costs!

And BTW: If the Fairtax ever does become law all those manufacturers who have left for other places will not be able to get back to the USA fast enough to suit them because they will be  completely free of all the tax overhead that currently kills them in the market place.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2020, 11:55:42 AM by Bigun »

Online Bigun

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This matter and issue was lost 4 POTUS' ago, when deficit spending went into logrithmic escalation. I hate to keep sounding defeatist, but when we screamed this 20 years ago the sheeple chose not to react. 

Now fast forward.  Just wait till the socialist dims tell the 44% of Americans who do not pay fed income tax that they now have to pony up to the trough in what they will view as an extra  XX% surcharge......  You don't think rioting won't escalate?

People (currently about 45% of the voting public) who perceive that they pay no taxes do not care what the costs are!


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