Author Topic: What Should West Point Do About Its Robert E. Lee Problem?  (Read 3948 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline conservativevoter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 490
Re: What Should West Point Do About Its Robert E. Lee Problem?
« Reply #25 on: July 03, 2020, 05:09:34 pm »
Robert E. Lee, second in his class at West Point, may have been A principled man, but he Was the reason the South lost.  He held his (uniform) rank as a colonel until his meeting with Grant in April 1865.

Grant was the most principled; Lee was in danger of being held on charges of treason when Grant spoke for him.

Offline Bigun

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 51,555
  • Gender: Male
  • Resistance to Tyrants is Obedience to God
    • The FairTax Plan
Re: What Should West Point Do About Its Robert E. Lee Problem?
« Reply #26 on: July 03, 2020, 05:32:59 pm »
My favorite way of pointing out the nuances of the Civil War it to note that for each side, the primary issue was the opposite of what the latter-day partisans of the two sides say it was.  For the South the issue was slavery, and the Confederacy was formed to defend that institution.  For the North the issue was states rights, the Union going to war to vindicate the position that states do no have the right to secede uniliaterally.

NO! Slavery was not the primary driving issue that compelled the secession of Southern states. It was instead the tariffs being imposed on them that forced them to buy the goods necessary for their farming enterprises from Northern industrialists instead of bartering for them in the world's markets.

Can you show me the word(s) or phrase(s) in the Constitution that prevents states from leaving a union that no longer serves them?  I'll wait. 

@The_Reader_David
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline EdinVA

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,584
  • Gender: Male
Re: What Should West Point Do About Its Robert E. Lee Problem?
« Reply #27 on: July 03, 2020, 05:35:05 pm »
NO! Slavery was not the primary driving issue that compelled the secession of Southern states. It was instead the tariffs being imposed on them that forced them to buy the goods necessary for their farming enterprises from Northern industrialists instead of bartering for them in the world's markets.

Can you show me the word(s) or phrase(s) in the Constitution that prevents states from leaving a union that no longer serves them?  I'll wait. 

@The_Reader_David
Exactly...
Then the north swapped Indentured Servitude for slavery

Offline Bigun

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 51,555
  • Gender: Male
  • Resistance to Tyrants is Obedience to God
    • The FairTax Plan
Re: What Should West Point Do About Its Robert E. Lee Problem?
« Reply #28 on: July 03, 2020, 05:36:44 pm »
Robert E. Lee, second in his class at West Point, may have been A principled man, but he Was the reason the South lost.  He held his (uniform) rank as a colonel until his meeting with Grant in April 1865.

Grant was the most principled; Lee was in danger of being held on charges of treason when Grant spoke for him.

Perhaps you can tell us why no Southern leader was ever prosecuted for any of their supposed crimes.

Jefferson Davis, Alexander Hamilton Stephens, Robert E. Lee, not any of them. Why?
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline AL

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 230
  • Gender: Male
Re: What Should West Point Do About Its Robert E. Lee Problem?
« Reply #29 on: July 03, 2020, 06:29:54 pm »
Well, Lee did finish near the top of his class at West Point while Ulysses Grant was near the bottom.  They were both respected by their men.  But on the battlefield, Grant was the superior fighter.

Removing the statue won't change history.  Only our so-called educator's and the worthless MSM will try to do that.

Offline Bigun

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 51,555
  • Gender: Male
  • Resistance to Tyrants is Obedience to God
    • The FairTax Plan
Re: What Should West Point Do About Its Robert E. Lee Problem?
« Reply #30 on: July 03, 2020, 06:40:55 pm »
Well, Lee did finish near the top of his class at West Point while Ulysses Grant was near the bottom.  They were both respected by their men.  But on the battlefield, Grant was the superior fighter.

Removing the statue won't change history.  Only our so-called educator's and the worthless MSM will try to do that.

Grant was the superior fighter only because Lee's principles would not allow him to use the same tactics.  He was urged by many to adopt unconventional tactics but refused to do so to the bitter end.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 56,678
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
Re: What Should West Point Do About Its Robert E. Lee Problem?
« Reply #31 on: July 03, 2020, 06:48:10 pm »
My favorite way of pointing out the nuances of the Civil War it to note that for each side, the primary issue was the opposite of what the latter-day partisans of the two sides say it was.  For the South the issue was slavery, and the Confederacy was formed to defend that institution.  For the North the issue was states rights, the Union going to war to vindicate the position that states do no have the right to secede uniliaterally.
If the North was going to war to invalidate the idea of a State's Right to secede from the compact, alone or in groups, then State's Rights was certainly an issue.
As I have noted, if the founding governments of their respective several and sovereign States had believed for a moment that in the event their State was no longer served by the compact that they could not leave that compact, it never would have been ratified in the first place. After all,
Why was slavery an issue if only 1/4 of southerners held slaves?
First, the slaves were the tractors before the industrial age. Certainly, draft animals did the heavy work, but farming was (and to some extent still is) labor intensive. Today, machinery acts as a force multiplier, but the job is still 24/7/365 to be done right. Prior to the introduction of many of the antecedents to today's planting and harvesting machinery, planting, cultivation, harvesting were done by hand. Crops like tobacco still rely on human labor for harvesting and lest we forget, that presently demonized crop was such an essential cash crop, it was literally used as money, including for the payment of taxes. The summary elimination of the agricultural labor force upon which the South relied for the production of the very stock in trade: agricultural products would have been economically devastating. The North had different needs, and a steady influx of immigrants the South did not, enough so that it could pick and choose which European groups were treated poorly. You could starve to death as an immigrant in the North, as a slave you'd at least be fed (or the owner would lose their investment).
Speaking of that investment, the summary and total manumission the Northerners (or at least the most ardent abolitionists) sought made no provisions for compensating owners for what at the time was considered "property", to be removed from them without due process, for no crime unless a new (ex post facto) law was passed.

Consider:
Quote
By the mid 19th Century, exports of raw cotton accounted for more than half of US oversees shipments. What wasn't sold abroad was sent to mills in northern states including Massachusetts and Rhode Island to be turned into fabric.

The money southern plantation owners earned couldn't be kept under mattresses or behind loose floorboards.

American banks accepted their deposits and counted enslaved people as assets when assessing a person's wealth.

In recent years, US banks have made public apologies for the role they played in slavery.

In 2005, JP Morgan Chase, currently the biggest bank in the US, admitted that two of its subsidiaries - Citizens' Bank and Canal Bank in Louisiana - accepted enslaved people as collateral for loans. If plantation owners defaulted on loan payment the banks took ownership of these slaves.

JP Morgan was not alone. The predecessors that made up Citibank, Bank of America and Wells Fargo are among a list of well-known US financial firms that benefited from the slave trade.

"Slavery was an overwhelmingly important fact of the American economy," explains Sven Beckert, Laird Bell Professor of American History at Harvard University.
source

Even northern interests were involved, first in the trade, but later as counting the value of slaves held as collateral for loans, loans which were deeply involved in maintaining the production of agricultural products on which the North not only relied for trade with Europe, but for its own textile and other mills.

The economic issues were not as simple as might appear, seriously wealthy interests were involved, both from the banking and industrial standpoint,and the simple bottom line is that the mercantile and banking class could not afford to have the South trading its products with the world, rather than being heavily tied to the Northern interests. Those loans were the leverage to keep the trade on track. The threat of summarily dismissing collateral for those loans would have left notes being called in and financial ruin/confiscation of major assets.

While, for instance, manumission was gaining in popularity in States like Maryland, where the expansion of the Federal District, Annapolis, and Baltimore (a major port and trade hub) changed the crops planted in the area to produce for market, requiring fewer slaves, and leading to many being freed, the need in the deeper South was still for agricultural labor to produce the crops to service the loans often held by northern banks.
Practical cotton harvesting machinery wasn't invented until the 1920s, and tobacco is still harvested by hand.
By 1860, though, just under half of the blacks living in Maryland were free, and manumission had been steadily increasing since 1810 source

 When the South threatened to leave (the first mutterings were as early as the 1830s) not only were the collateral holdings of the northern banks threatened, but the lock on southern materials for the markup in trade and the raw materials to feed the mills was as well. Secession was the economic (and political) reply to the brickbat of emancipation  which the north had waved once too often, but the underpinnings of the issue ultimately were economic, and that economic issue boiled down to two matters: The Right of a State to make its own laws, and at its core, the relation of that to slavery.

Considering the movement was away from slavery for economic reasons, namely that the influx of immigrants, often unwelcome in urban areas except to keep a sufficient surplus of labor to keep wages low, trickled down into the South.  As that labor became more available, we see things like forbidding slaves from the holds of ships being loaded, not to prevent escape so much as to protect the investment. If the cargo shifted, the slave would likely be severely injured or killed, a loss of an asset. Instead, if a hireling was sent into the hold and was killed or injured, a modest stipend might be tendered to the widow and hire another. In addition, as I have mentioned in other posts, the slave had to be provided for: food, housing, adequate clothing and medical care (such as it was), or the return on investment would be low or nonexistent. A wage earner, on the other hand, would provide such themselves out of their pay, or if housed (room and board), that could be deducted from their wages. The "Company Store" got so bad that many equated it with slavery, and no initial investment was necessary. Not all were treated thus, but it was common enough, and a system which persisted into the 20th century, in coal mining towns, especially.
If left to its economic devices, restrained to the States which practiced it, it is likely slavery would have died a natural death out of economic considerations.

The war was fought, invading the South, to preserve the Union, at least in the minds of many Northerners who made up the Army. Allegedly, Maryland was invaded for the purpose of securing the Federal District, (in actuality, with the occupation of the State Capitol, to prevent a vote on secession). There was no great cry of going forth to free people held in bondage, but to quash rebellion, in their eyes. It was no coincidence that after the emancipation proclamation there were problems in the ranks over not fighting to free slaves, and draft riots in New York City in mid 1863. Emancipation alone simply was not casus belli in the minds of Northerners, but the preservation of jobs and their economy was.




My point, however, is simply this. Slavery, as an issue, cannot be separated from the States' Rights issue, as it was the State's Rights issue which determined whether slavery would be allowed to persist. The roots of the war, of the forceful and brutal conquest of the South to make it stay in a 'voluntary' Union were by and large (as in all wars) economic.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2020, 06:54:55 pm by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline truth_seeker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 28,386
  • Gender: Male
  • Common Sense Results Oriented Conservative Veteran
Re: What Should West Point Do About Its Robert E. Lee Problem?
« Reply #32 on: July 03, 2020, 06:51:15 pm »
@Smokin Joe

In his final speech to southern troops, Lee told his troops them to go home and be as good a citizen and they were soldiers which went a long way toward reconciliation of the two sides.  He was also one of the first white southerners to kneel next to a black man to receive communion in a Virginia church, no small occurrence.  While he, no doubt, was bitter at losing the war, he exhibited the qualities of reconciliation he had encouraged his troops to do.  He was a leader by example.

That is a most powerful story.
"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Offline Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 56,678
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
Re: What Should West Point Do About Its Robert E. Lee Problem?
« Reply #33 on: July 03, 2020, 06:59:36 pm »
Robert E. Lee, second in his class at West Point, may have been A principled man, but he Was the reason the South lost.  He held his (uniform) rank as a colonel until his meeting with Grant in April 1865.

Grant was the most principled; Lee was in danger of being held on charges of treason when Grant spoke for him.
By no means do I see Grant as "principled". The wanton destruction of the south belies that.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Bigun

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 51,555
  • Gender: Male
  • Resistance to Tyrants is Obedience to God
    • The FairTax Plan
Re: What Should West Point Do About Its Robert E. Lee Problem?
« Reply #34 on: July 03, 2020, 07:01:06 pm »
By no means do I see Grant as "principled". The wanton destruction of the south belies that.

 :yowsa: pointing-up
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline GrouchoTex

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,382
  • Gender: Male
Re: What Should West Point Do About Its Robert E. Lee Problem?
« Reply #35 on: July 03, 2020, 07:05:41 pm »
There were 16 Northerners who chose to “go south”. All of these were West
Point graduates who had married Southern women;
• The 162 Southern men who remained loyal to the Union were all West
Pointers, although their marital situation is less clear;
• The traditional view that most Southern officers with West Point credentials
“went south” is not supported by the Statistics. Of a total of 330 officers of
Southern origin serving in the Army in December 1860, 162 (49.1%)
remained loyal to the Union while 168 (50.9%) joined the Confederacy; and
• Only one directly commissioned officer remained loyal to the Union
compared with 129 who “went south”.

Offline GrouchoTex

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,382
  • Gender: Male
Re: What Should West Point Do About Its Robert E. Lee Problem?
« Reply #36 on: July 03, 2020, 07:07:14 pm »
West Point produced 445 Civil War Generals, 294 fought for the Union and 151 for the Confederacy.

Offline catfish1957

  • Laken Riley.... Say her Name. And to every past and future democrat voter- Her blood is on your hands too!!!
  • Political Researcher
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,461
  • Gender: Male
Re: What Should West Point Do About Its Robert E. Lee Problem?
« Reply #37 on: July 03, 2020, 08:25:28 pm »


Grant was the most principled; Lee was in danger of being held on charges of treason when Grant spoke for him.

@conservativevoter

Whooooaaaa....

Not wanting to be disrespectful, but I have no idea where you are coming up with this revisionist stuff.  I'd could go maybe 5 pages countering that statement, but I will leave it to a few bullet points:

1. Grant was a sub-standard officer, and was pretty much drummed out after a few assignments after the Mexican-American War.  While Lee, created a sterling resume' in same war in the Engineerring Corp, and afterwards.  Thusly, given first choice in 1861.

2. Grant was a drunk, and was seen that way many times i\on the battle field.  Lee?  A sober highly focused tactician.

3. Grant's only trait as a field general was bombastic.  Many historians compare him to lucky maniac who drew a dozen 21's in a row at the black jack table.  If Johnston had lived at Shiloh, Grant may have been on the dust bin of history , as one of the worst.  He almost allowed his 15,000 remaining force at Pittsburg Landing to be pushed into the Tennessee River.
   
4. Prinicpals?  Grant gave his lackey Sherman free reign to rape, murder, steal, pillage through GA and SC.  During Lee's brief invasion of MD, and PA, he often instructed his officers to procure rations from the locals in a gentlemenly manner.

5. As POTUS his graft and corruption was legendary.  Well documented.

6. And lastly as the God Father of Reconstruction, what was disguised  a conciliatory and rebuilding exercise, ended up being 15 years of economic rape and theft.

Yes, he is honored for his bloodthirtstiness and getting the job done.  But don't give me or my other southern friends the sainthood speech.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2020, 09:05:35 pm by catfish1957 »
I display the Confederate Battle Flag in honor of my great great great grandfathers who spilled blood at Wilson's Creek and Shiloh.  5 others served in the WBTS with honor too.

Offline GrouchoTex

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,382
  • Gender: Male
Re: What Should West Point Do About Its Robert E. Lee Problem?
« Reply #38 on: July 03, 2020, 08:31:17 pm »
On another note, when Vicksburg fell on July 4th, after Grant's siege, the city didn't celebrate Independence Day for 100 years.

Offline mountaineer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 78,762
Re: What Should West Point Do About Its Robert E. Lee Problem?
« Reply #39 on: July 03, 2020, 09:46:25 pm »
All I know is that several of my ancestors fought for Virginia, and one fought for Ohio. I refuse to vilify any of them. None owned slaves - they were way too poor for that.
Support Israel's emergency medical service. afmda.org

Offline Bigun

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 51,555
  • Gender: Male
  • Resistance to Tyrants is Obedience to God
    • The FairTax Plan
Re: What Should West Point Do About Its Robert E. Lee Problem?
« Reply #40 on: July 03, 2020, 11:19:17 pm »
@conservativevoter

Whooooaaaa....

Not wanting to be disrespectful, but I have no idea where you are coming up with this revisionist stuff.  I'd could go maybe 5 pages countering that statement, but I will leave it to a few bullet points:

1. Grant was a sub-standard officer, and was pretty much drummed out after a few assignments after the Mexican-American War.  While Lee, created a sterling resume' in same war in the Engineerring Corp, and afterwards.  Thusly, given first choice in 1861.

2. Grant was a drunk, and was seen that way many times i\on the battle field.  Lee?  A sober highly focused tactician.

3. Grant's only trait as a field general was bombastic.  Many historians compare him to lucky maniac who drew a dozen 21's in a row at the black jack table.  If Johnston had lived at Shiloh, Grant may have been on the dust bin of history , as one of the worst.  He almost allowed his 15,000 remaining force at Pittsburg Landing to be pushed into the Tennessee River.
   
4. Prinicpals?  Grant gave his lackey Sherman free reign to rape, murder, steal, pillage through GA and SC.  During Lee's brief invasion of MD, and PA, he often instructed his officers to procure rations from the locals in a gentlemenly manner.

5. As POTUS his graft and corruption was legendary.  Well documented.

6. And lastly as the God Father of Reconstruction, what was disguised  a conciliatory and rebuilding exercise, ended up being 15 years of economic rape and theft.

Yes, he is honored for his bloodthirtstiness and getting the job done.  But don't give me or my other southern friends the sainthood speech.

Good post @catfish1957

Thanks for taking the time to write it.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 56,678
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
Re: What Should West Point Do About Its Robert E. Lee Problem?
« Reply #41 on: July 04, 2020, 12:31:47 am »
@conservativevoter

Whooooaaaa....

Not wanting to be disrespectful, but I have no idea where you are coming up with this revisionist stuff.  I'd could go maybe 5 pages countering that statement, but I will leave it to a few bullet points:

1. Grant was a sub-standard officer, and was pretty much drummed out after a few assignments after the Mexican-American War.  While Lee, created a sterling resume' in same war in the Engineerring Corp, and afterwards.  Thusly, given first choice in 1861.

2. Grant was a drunk, and was seen that way many times i\on the battle field.  Lee?  A sober highly focused tactician.

3. Grant's only trait as a field general was bombastic.  Many historians compare him to lucky maniac who drew a dozen 21's in a row at the black jack table.  If Johnston had lived at Shiloh, Grant may have been on the dust bin of history , as one of the worst.  He almost allowed his 15,000 remaining force at Pittsburg Landing to be pushed into the Tennessee River.
   
4. Prinicpals?  Grant gave his lackey Sherman free reign to rape, murder, steal, pillage through GA and SC.  During Lee's brief invasion of MD, and PA, he often instructed his officers to procure rations from the locals in a gentlemenly manner.

5. As POTUS his graft and corruption was legendary.  Well documented.

6. And lastly as the God Father of Reconstruction, what was disguised  a conciliatory and rebuilding exercise, ended up being 15 years of economic rape and theft.

Yes, he is honored for his bloodthirtstiness and getting the job done.  But don't give me or my other southern friends the sainthood speech.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:  Thank You!
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline conservativevoter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 490
Re: What Should West Point Do About Its Robert E. Lee Problem?
« Reply #42 on: July 06, 2020, 05:46:34 pm »
Oh, my!  The Southern Cause...…  Lee was so honest that he had insisted that Pickett's OR of Gettysburg was seen by all.

Grant got drunk nearly every time he was separated from Julia.

Sherman was SUCH a scoundrel for seeing that the south paid for what happened at Sumter.  (Ever hear of that war that occurred during the 1860's?)  As for locals 'selling' their field animals and food to the invading troops, our local historians have a somewhat different attitude on the matter.  (The confederate money offered was simply no good... including at the post office that was robbed of stamps, money, and the postmaster's uniform.) 

Longstreet would have been more up to the task than Lee, but then, he warn't a Virginian, were he?

Didn't the whole reconstruction thing start under Andrew Johnson?

 :patriot: :patriot: :patriot:


Offline Bigun

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 51,555
  • Gender: Male
  • Resistance to Tyrants is Obedience to God
    • The FairTax Plan
Re: What Should West Point Do About Its Robert E. Lee Problem?
« Reply #43 on: July 06, 2020, 06:16:10 pm »
Oh, my!  The Southern Cause...…  Lee was so honest that he had insisted that Pickett's OR of Gettysburg was seen by all.

Grant got drunk nearly every time he was separated from Julia.

Sherman was SUCH a scoundrel for seeing that the south paid for what happened at Sumter.  (Ever hear of that war that occurred during the 1860's?)  As for locals 'selling' their field animals and food to the invading troops, our local historians have a somewhat different attitude on the matter.  (The confederate money offered was simply no good... including at the post office that was robbed of stamps, money, and the postmaster's uniform.) 

Longstreet would have been more up to the task than Lee, but then, he warn't a Virginian, were he?

Didn't the whole reconstruction thing start under Andrew Johnson?

 :patriot: :patriot: :patriot:

Truth is truth and lies are lies and nothing is ever going to change that.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Hoodat

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 36,425
Re: What Should West Point Do About Its Robert E. Lee Problem?
« Reply #44 on: July 06, 2020, 06:44:30 pm »
Can you show me the word(s) or phrase(s) in the Constitution that prevents states from leaving a union that no longer serves them?  I'll wait. 

@The_Reader_David

If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

-Ayn Rand-

Offline catfish1957

  • Laken Riley.... Say her Name. And to every past and future democrat voter- Her blood is on your hands too!!!
  • Political Researcher
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,461
  • Gender: Male
Re: What Should West Point Do About Its Robert E. Lee Problem?
« Reply #45 on: July 06, 2020, 07:06:56 pm »
@conservativevoter

LMAO...  Took you three days to come back and respond?  You are in luck today....   I'll give you another history lesson.  No charge.

Oh, my!  The Southern Cause...…  Lee was so honest that he had insisted that Pickett's OR of Gettysburg was seen by all.

I have no idea what you are talking about or what you are alluding to.  Picketts Charge is a subset of Gettysburg.  Not a "and or or" statement.  Yes, Gettysburg was a failure, and Lee's worst decison of the war.  But up to that time, he was whooping the heck out of a larger, better equipped army on a consistent basis.  Now...   the merits of Lee's timing and choice of this spot in PA have been debated to death for the last 150+ years.  But the crust of it is that by the time of the Army of Northern Virginia's second incursion into U.S soil, Lee via attritution and supply line distruptons had lost enough men that successes were becoming more diffiicult, and Army was fragmented to hold defensive positions.  Lee's final offfensive push (Gettysburg) was not to win, but to score enough pain on the Union, get close enough to D.C, and force a truce.  Because prior to Gettysburg, there was enough dissent against Lincoln, public opion could have easily swayed Congress to force Lincoln in that direction.  Of course that didn't work, and Lee was left with fighting the rest of the war on a defensive front.  So bottom line, Lee really had no choice, and except would have had a better chance if Jeb Stuart would have been available for recon of a better place to fight.   

Grant got drunk nearly every time he was separated from Julia.

LMAO...  Which is typically when he was in command.  What relevance does that have to this argument. His little bender back in April 1862 almost got 15,000 Union Soldiers needlessly killed

Sherman was SUCH a scoundrel for seeing that the south paid for what happened at Sumter.  (Ever hear of that war that occurred during the 1860's?)  As for locals 'selling' their field animals and food to the invading troops, our local historians have a somewhat different attitude on the matter.  (The confederate money offered was simply no good... including at the post office that was robbed of stamps, money, and the postmaster's uniform.) 

Longstreet would have been more up to the task than Lee, but then, he warn't a Virginian, were he?

I am not even going to indulge your ridiculous little revisionist rant.  Beauregard was a Cajun Louisianan and was made head of the Western Theatre after Johnston's death in 1862.  Dumb dumb dumb claim of location based bias and discrimination 

Didn't the whole reconstruction thing start under Andrew Johnson?

Aww Geez..  don't you know anything about 19th century American History?  Johnson (a democrat) was there for political purposes to help hold together a coalition politically to keep the Union together. After Lincoln's assasination Johnson met an onslought of accusations, and basically spent 100% of his remaining political capital surviving.  Don't forget that after he was impeached he was one vote shy of a Senate conviction.  He basically became a politcal enuch afterwards.  Plus, by the way....   Read his terms of Reconstruction proposals, versus what was implemented during the Grant term.  Johnson basically had ZERO input into it.

 :patriot: :patriot: :patriot:

Come back in another three days when you are ready, and I'll give you another lesson.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2020, 02:56:28 am by catfish1957 »
I display the Confederate Battle Flag in honor of my great great great grandfathers who spilled blood at Wilson's Creek and Shiloh.  5 others served in the WBTS with honor too.

Offline Hoodat

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 36,425
Re: What Should West Point Do About Its Robert E. Lee Problem?
« Reply #46 on: July 06, 2020, 07:16:31 pm »
For the record, the Commonwealth of Virginia did not choose to secede until AFTER Lincoln demanded Virginia troops to attack South Carolina.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

-Ayn Rand-

Offline Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 56,678
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
Re: What Should West Point Do About Its Robert E. Lee Problem?
« Reply #47 on: July 06, 2020, 07:23:10 pm »
For the record, the Commonwealth of Virginia did not choose to secede until AFTER Lincoln demanded Virginia troops to attack South Carolina.
Had it done so sooner, there is a solid chance that Maryland would have, as well. By the time a vote finally came, Annapolis and Baltimore had been occupied, and the vote was held with the quorum which could be mustered in Frederick, MD, which had more Northern Sentiment than the tidewater portions of the State, a vote which was influenced by the already heavy presence of Northern Armies.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Bigun

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 51,555
  • Gender: Male
  • Resistance to Tyrants is Obedience to God
    • The FairTax Plan
Re: What Should West Point Do About Its Robert E. Lee Problem?
« Reply #48 on: July 06, 2020, 07:33:43 pm »
You are a much more patient man than I @catfish1957. Maybe I'm just getting too old for nonsense.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline catfish1957

  • Laken Riley.... Say her Name. And to every past and future democrat voter- Her blood is on your hands too!!!
  • Political Researcher
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,461
  • Gender: Male
Re: What Should West Point Do About Its Robert E. Lee Problem?
« Reply #49 on: July 06, 2020, 08:13:17 pm »
You are a much more patient man than I @catfish1957. Maybe I'm just getting too old for nonsense.

@Bigun

Considering the treatment all across of anything southern or Dixie is getting, I refuse to give any quarter to any revisionist bull shit right now.

It's almost like they are allying themselves with the Antifa / BLM thuggery and taking part in the confederate statue destruction by passive endorsement.
I display the Confederate Battle Flag in honor of my great great great grandfathers who spilled blood at Wilson's Creek and Shiloh.  5 others served in the WBTS with honor too.