Author Topic: Jones, Sessions spar over renaming of military bases  (Read 1528 times)

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Offline Chosen Daughter

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Jones, Sessions spar over renaming of military bases
« on: June 14, 2020, 05:11:00 am »
Jones, Sessions spar over renaming of military bases
By Tal Axelrod - 06/13/20 07:11 PM EDT


Sen. Doug Jones (D-Ala.) and former U.S. Attorney General Jeff Sessions sparred Saturday over renaming Army bases that are named after Confederate military officers.

Sessions, who represented Alabama in the Senate for 20 years before becoming attorney general, first attacked Jones over his vote on the Senate Armed Services Committee to add an amendment to a defense spending bill supporting the renaming of the bases.

“.@DougJones vote to remove from all military facilities and installations the names of every soldier who fought for the Confederacy betrays the character and decency of every soldier who fought for the South in that bloody and monumental war,” Sessions, who is running for the chance to challenge Jones in the Alabama Senate race this year, tweeted.

“Make no mistake, this is not a little matter. It reveals a profound deficit in his understanding of what it means to be AL’s Senator. Doug Jones’ vote seeks to erase AL’s & America’s history and thousands of Alabamians for doing what they considered to be their duty at the time.”...

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/502621-jones-sessions-spar-over-renaming-of-military-bases
AG William Barr: "I'm recused from that matter because one of the law firms that represented Epstein long ago was a firm that I subsequently joined for a period of time."

Alexander Acosta Labor Secretary resigned under pressure concerning his "sweetheart deal" with Jeffrey Epstein.  He was under consideration for AG after Sessions was removed, but was forced to resign instead.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Jones, Sessions spar over renaming of military bases
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2020, 05:58:36 am »
Ultimately, these men defended their homes against an aggressive invader. There is no shame in that.
Many of those same officers had served honorably in the United States Army prior to having to choose between their home State Armies or the Federal Army.

Gee. Let's see. Do I join the invading Army, or do I defend my home against it?
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Chosen Daughter

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Re: Jones, Sessions spar over renaming of military bases
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2020, 06:02:19 am »
Ultimately, these men defended their homes against an aggressive invader. There is no shame in that.
Many of those same officers had served honorably in the United States Army prior to having to choose between their home State Armies or the Federal Army.

Gee. Let's see. Do I join the invading Army, or do I defend my home against it?

I can't understand how Republicans could support this.
AG William Barr: "I'm recused from that matter because one of the law firms that represented Epstein long ago was a firm that I subsequently joined for a period of time."

Alexander Acosta Labor Secretary resigned under pressure concerning his "sweetheart deal" with Jeffrey Epstein.  He was under consideration for AG after Sessions was removed, but was forced to resign instead.

Offline catfish1957

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Re: Jones, Sessions spar over renaming of military bases
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2020, 06:50:34 am »
I can't understand how Republicans could support this.

Seems way to many are okay with this cultural genocide.  It already is escalating past the Confederacy, with targets being the Jefferson and Washington Monuments in DC. and Columbus in other location(s).   And it won't end there.  Once they dispose of all the symbolic white  monuments, it will turn to a financial shakedown in the form expanded massive entitlements and reparations.  (See today's 56-5 vote in CA). And after that...   race attacks.
I display the Confederate Battle Flag in honor of my great great great grandfathers who spilled blood at Wilson's Creek and Shiloh.  5 others served in the WBTS with honor too.

Offline bilo

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Re: Jones, Sessions spar over renaming of military bases
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2020, 07:05:26 pm »
I can't understand how Republicans could support this.

I've always thought that naming military bases and erecting statues of confederate soldiers was more about reconciliation after a terrible war. However, some of these recognize people who went on to become actively involved with the KKK and denial of God given rights to Black Americans. I am a Republican, when the party is conservative. FWIW, I think the answer rests in State sovereignty. Federal military bases should be renamed, it doesn't make sense to honor treasonous generals. However, States should decide on their own whether they want to honor these dead Confederate officers. 
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Jones, Sessions spar over renaming of military bases
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2020, 11:47:15 pm »
I've always thought that naming military bases and erecting statues of confederate soldiers was more about reconciliation after a terrible war. However, some of these recognize people who went on to become actively involved with the KKK and denial of God given rights to Black Americans. I am a Republican, when the party is conservative. FWIW, I think the answer rests in State sovereignty. Federal military bases should be renamed, it doesn't make sense to honor treasonous generals. However, States should decide on their own whether they want to honor these dead Confederate officers.
In the days before the war, you were a Virginian, New Yorker, a Marylander, what have you, and owed your first loyalty to the State you were from.
After all, in the days before the idea of a Federal Government was twisted to be a National Government, the State was the most meaningful and large of the governments to which you would answer. Your State even had two representatives, elected by the Legislature, to represent its interests in the Federal Congress and was a sovereign entity unto itself.

To turn against your State was the Treason. Every dog in town would have been set upon any man who was an officer in the Union Army who came marching into his 'hometown' in the South.

Lee faced a hard decision. A West Point Graduate with a record of military service in the Federal Army he had to decide whether to serve the land of his birth, where his family lived and his heritage was solid, versus serving an Army which would invade and conquer his homeland.

Far from treason, he made the only decision he could.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline HoustonSam

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Re: Jones, Sessions spar over renaming of military bases
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2020, 01:09:57 am »
I've always thought that naming military bases and erecting statues of confederate soldiers was more about reconciliation after a terrible war. However, some of these recognize people who went on to become actively involved with the KKK and denial of God given rights to Black Americans. I am a Republican, when the party is conservative. FWIW, I think the answer rests in State sovereignty. Federal military bases should be renamed, it doesn't make sense to honor treasonous generals. However, States should decide on their own whether they want to honor these dead Confederate officers.

The outcome of the war conditions our understanding of treason; applying a current definition to people for whom that definition did not yet exist, or was at best unclear, is not intellectually fair.

Naming US Military bases for Confederate figures was, I think, an attempt to complete regional reconciliation so the country could fight united in the first and second world wars.  If the names of US Military bases are mechanisms for addressing disunity in the country, one can reasonably argue that bases can be re-named in the interest of greater unity; however it is not immediately clear that the proposed re-namings actually will achieve that.  What alternate names should be chosen?  Fort Malcolm X?  Joint Base Trayvon Martin?  Would WEB DuBois or MLK even have wanted military bases named for them?

Nathan Bedford Forrest was associated with the KKK.  Camp Forest, near Tullahoma, TN, was active during WWII primarily as a POW camp.  After the war it was closed and during the Truman administration became the Arnold Engineering Development Center.  So the only US Military camp named for the most prominent Confederate KKK figure was re-named almost 70 years ago.  I'm not aware of any KKK activity by Robert E. (Fort) Lee, John Bell (Fort) Hood, Braxton (Fort) Bragg, John Brown (Fort) Gordon, Henry (Fort) Benning, or Edmund (Fort) Rucker.  "Stonewall" (Fort) Jackson and A.P. (Fort) Hill were both dead before the KKK was founded.  There might be others I've overlooked or whose post-war biographies are insufficiently known to me.

If US Military bases are to be re-named to achieve racial reconciliation, how many of those bases should be re-named for Native American tribes and leaders?  Surely they have a case to make against US Military power.  Or do we also consider their resistance to Federal authority "treason"?
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Offline mountaineer

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Re: Jones, Sessions spar over renaming of military bases
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2020, 02:51:14 am »
That is a great explanation, Smoking Joe. My ancestors fought for Virginia, and this helps me understand what may have motivated them.
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Jones, Sessions spar over renaming of military bases
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2020, 02:59:43 am »
That is a great explanation, Smoking Joe. My ancestors fought for Virginia, and this helps me understand what may have motivated them.
You are welcome. West Virginia having been part of Virginia at the onset of the War might complete that picture, for those others reading and not so aware of that.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline catfish1957

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Re: Jones, Sessions spar over renaming of military bases
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2020, 06:36:08 am »
I've always thought that naming military bases and erecting statues of confederate soldiers was more about reconciliation after a terrible war. However, some of these recognize people who went on to become actively involved with the KKK and denial of God given rights to Black Americans. I am a Republican, when the party is conservative. FWIW, I think the answer rests in State sovereignty. Federal military bases should be renamed, it doesn't make sense to honor treasonous generals. However, States should decide on their own whether they want to honor these dead Confederate officers.

For many of the Southern Confederate boys, (who most just didn't happen to own slaves btw) what  you call treasonous was defending your homeland against a foreign invader.  That foreign invader was destroying your economy, livelihoods, and overall way of life.  Many of these confederate soldiers fought with valor, bravery, and skill, against a much better armed and supplied agresssor.  Some of these included mine, who died at Wilson's Creek, and Shiloh.  So, IMO...  It's none of any f'n BLM activist, nor  federal government,,   NOR STATE GOVERNMENT's business on how or why I choose to honor my ancestors.
I display the Confederate Battle Flag in honor of my great great great grandfathers who spilled blood at Wilson's Creek and Shiloh.  5 others served in the WBTS with honor too.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Jones, Sessions spar over renaming of military bases
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2020, 06:40:06 am »
For many of the Southern Confederate boys, (who most just didn't happen to own slaves btw) what  you call treasonous was defending your homeland against a foreign invader.  That foreign invader was destroying your economy, livelihoods, and overall way of life.  Many of these confederate soldiers fought with valor, bravery, and skill, against a much better armed and supplied agresssor.  Some of these included mine, who died at Wilson's Creek, and Shiloh.  So, IMO...  It's none of any f'n BLM activist, nor  federal government,,   NOR STATE GOVERNMENT's business on how or why I choose to honor my ancestors.
:yowsa: Precisely.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline catfish1957

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Re: Jones, Sessions spar over renaming of military bases
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2020, 06:46:02 am »
In the days before the war, you were a Virginian, New Yorker, a Marylander, what have you, and owed your first loyalty to the State you were from.
After all, in the days before the idea of a Federal Government was twisted to be a National Government, the State was the most meaningful and large of the governments to which you would answer. Your State even had two representatives, elected by the Legislature, to represent its interests in the Federal Congress and was a sovereign entity unto itself.

To turn against your State was the Treason. Every dog in town would have been set upon any man who was an officer in the Union Army who came marching into his 'hometown' in the South.

Lee faced a hard decision. A West Point Graduate with a record of military service in the Federal Army he had to decide whether to serve the land of his birth, where his family lived and his heritage was solid, versus serving an Army which would invade and conquer his homeland.

Far from treason, he made the only decision he could.

From bilo's viewpoint, 1775-1783 must be aghastly treasonous too.  It's all a matter of perspective.  You are correct about state loyalties, but in the more frontier western theatre, it was more about survival than pride.  Loss of the western rivers, and the few and far between railroad lifebloods were critical.
I display the Confederate Battle Flag in honor of my great great great grandfathers who spilled blood at Wilson's Creek and Shiloh.  5 others served in the WBTS with honor too.

Offline sneakypete

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Re: Jones, Sessions spar over renaming of military bases
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2020, 12:38:59 pm »
Ultimately, these men defended their homes against an aggressive invader. There is no shame in that.
Many of those same officers had served honorably in the United States Army prior to having to choose between their home State Armies or the Federal Army.

Gee. Let's see. Do I join the invading Army, or do I defend my home against it?

@Smokin Joe

AND......,it needs to be pointed out to those who went to school in the 60's and later that the original 13 colonies formed a VOLUNTARY UNION after agreeing to accept certain conditions,and having the freedom to withdraw from that union if those conditions were violated.

Which,.....here it comes.......,means they had a LEGAL RIGHT TO SUCCEED,AND THE UNION ARMY WERE AN INVADING FORCE.

Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline sneakypete

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Re: Jones, Sessions spar over renaming of military bases
« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2020, 12:41:12 pm »
  And after that...   race attacks.

@catfish1957

Whites won't be attacked unless there is gun confiscation first.  Very few blacks are that stupid,and the ones that are live in big northern and western cities.
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Offline mountaineer

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Re: Jones, Sessions spar over renaming of military bases
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2020, 12:44:44 pm »
You are welcome. West Virginia having been part of Virginia at the onset of the War might complete that picture, for those others reading and not so aware of that.
I currently live in the "Union" part of WV, but my ancestors were from the southern counties. They weren't exactly war heroes. A gg grandfather on my mother's side deserted after 10 months in the 17th Virginia Cavalry. A ggg grandfather on my father's side, 22nd Va. Infantry, was taken prisoner Nov. 10, 1861, released soon thereafter, and his military service ended Nov. 19, 1861.
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Offline sneakypete

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Re: Jones, Sessions spar over renaming of military bases
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2020, 12:47:57 pm »
I've always thought that naming military bases and erecting statues of confederate soldiers was more about reconciliation after a terrible war. However, some of these recognize people who went on to become actively involved with the KKK and denial of God given rights to Black Americans. I am a Republican, when the party is conservative. FWIW, I think the answer rests in State sovereignty. Federal military bases should be renamed, it doesn't make sense to honor treasonous generals. However, States should decide on their own whether they want to honor these dead Confederate officers.

@bilo

Ok,you missed the real reason for the so-called "Civil War". Hand nothing to do with individual slavery,and everything to do with making the independent states vassals (slaves) of Big Massa Government in the North.

What the War of Northern Aggression did was to permanently remove the RIGHT to leave the union that each state was guaranteed when they joined.

Winning that war not only meant no states would ever be able to peacefully resign from the union again,it also meant the states themselves became slaves to Big Massa Government,with no real say in how they operated.

The slavery of blacks was never a reason for the war. It was merely a convenient PC excuse.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2020, 12:49:10 pm by sneakypete »
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Offline catfish1957

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Re: Jones, Sessions spar over renaming of military bases
« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2020, 01:01:08 pm »
@catfish1957

Whites won't be attacked unless there is gun confiscation first.  Very few blacks are that stupid,and the ones that are live in big northern and western cities.

@sneakypete

You do realize that there are several states that have pretty much done that in an innoculous way?  Not every state is like Texas....
I display the Confederate Battle Flag in honor of my great great great grandfathers who spilled blood at Wilson's Creek and Shiloh.  5 others served in the WBTS with honor too.

Offline sneakypete

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Re: Jones, Sessions spar over renaming of military bases
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2020, 02:30:54 pm »
@sneakypete

You do realize that there are several states that have pretty much done that in an innoculous way?  Not every state is like Texas....

@catfish1957

Sorta,but I don't worry about those people. They got what they said they wanted,so let them live with it.

Or not.

They are too freaking stupid to live,anyhow.

Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Jones, Sessions spar over renaming of military bases
« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2020, 02:40:31 pm »
@Smokin Joe

AND......,it needs to be pointed out to those who went to school in the 60's and later that the original 13 colonies formed a VOLUNTARY UNION after agreeing to accept certain conditions,and having the freedom to withdraw from that union if those conditions were violated.

Which,.....here it comes.......,means they had a LEGAL RIGHT TO SUCCEED,AND THE UNION ARMY WERE AN INVADING FORCE.
Precisely, and that from someone whose roots go back 380 years in a State that was occupied by invaders, despite never having voted on secession.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Jones, Sessions spar over renaming of military bases
« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2020, 02:42:45 pm »
I currently live in the "Union" part of WV, but my ancestors were from the southern counties. They weren't exactly war heroes. A gg grandfather on my mother's side deserted after 10 months in the 17th Virginia Cavalry. A ggg grandfather on my father's side, 22nd Va. Infantry, was taken prisoner Nov. 10, 1861, released soon thereafter, and his military service ended Nov. 19, 1861.
Release from captivity was often based on a parole, with the promise that the released prisoner would not rejoin the fight.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Jones, Sessions spar over renaming of military bases
« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2020, 02:43:59 pm »
@bilo

Ok,you missed the real reason for the so-called "Civil War". Hand nothing to do with individual slavery,and everything to do with making the independent states vassals (slaves) of Big Massa Government in the North.

What the War of Northern Aggression did was to permanently remove the RIGHT to leave the union that each state was guaranteed when they joined.

Winning that war not only meant no states would ever be able to peacefully resign from the union again,it also meant the states themselves became slaves to Big Massa Government,with no real say in how they operated.

The slavery of blacks was never a reason for the war. It was merely a convenient PC excuse.
Yep, with the end result that what had been a Federal government ultimately became a National government, a distinction lost on many. If freeing slaves had been so important, that proclamation would have been made before 1863.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2020, 02:46:30 pm by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Jones, Sessions spar over renaming of military bases
« Reply #21 on: June 15, 2020, 02:52:31 pm »
@catfish1957

Sorta,but I don't worry about those people. They got what they said they wanted,so let them live with it.

Or not.

They are too freaking stupid to live,anyhow.
I'd be content to let them live with it, if they'd only be content to let me live without their self-imposed lifestyle.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline bilo

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Re: Jones, Sessions spar over renaming of military bases
« Reply #22 on: June 15, 2020, 08:25:50 pm »
From bilo's viewpoint, 1775-1783 must be aghastly treasonous too.  It's all a matter of perspective.  You are correct about state loyalties, but in the more frontier western theatre, it was more about survival than pride.  Loss of the western rivers, and the few and far between railroad lifebloods were critical.

Typical liberal strawman argument, claim something I never said.

The reality is the Untied States of America as formed was not a treaty among different nations. When the southern states choose to secede they were not breaking a treaty they were tearing a country apart in a civil war. If the southern states had been smart they would have ended slavery and the north would not have had the motivation to fight.

As I said before, I think State sovereignty should prevail as far as statues and flags, etc. goes, but federal (national) locations probably shouldn't honor Confederate generals.
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Offline bilo

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Re: Jones, Sessions spar over renaming of military bases
« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2020, 08:30:34 pm »
@bilo

Ok,you missed the real reason for the so-called "Civil War". Hand nothing to do with individual slavery,and everything to do with making the independent states vassals (slaves) of Big Massa Government in the North.

What the War of Northern Aggression did was to permanently remove the RIGHT to leave the union that each state was guaranteed when they joined.

Winning that war not only meant no states would ever be able to peacefully resign from the union again,it also meant the states themselves became slaves to Big Massa Government,with no real say in how they operated.

The slavery of blacks was never a reason for the war. It was merely a convenient PC excuse.

Okay, I didn't have to go any further than your first mistake.

The Republican party was created out of the abolitionist movement. The 2 principal causes driving the Pubs was ending slavery and polygamy. When Lincoln won the south attempted to secede because they knew slavery was going to be ended.
A stranger in a hostile foreign land I used to call home

Offline catfish1957

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Re: Jones, Sessions spar over renaming of military bases
« Reply #24 on: June 15, 2020, 09:33:11 pm »
Typical liberal strawman argument, claim something I never said.



Accusing me of taking this discussion to a liberal direction, or via liberal means just makes you look like the  bigger fool.

BTW...Let me know what you wearing tonight, so I can spot you on the news ripping down Confederate statues.
I display the Confederate Battle Flag in honor of my great great great grandfathers who spilled blood at Wilson's Creek and Shiloh.  5 others served in the WBTS with honor too.