Author Topic: What a difference 2 months Makes  (Read 2067 times)

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Online catfish1957

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Re: What a difference 2 months Makes
« Reply #25 on: May 29, 2020, 01:22:11 am »
--------------------------------
No argument and soundly articulated.
Adam Smith is very likely smiling.

@Absalom

That's a very kind complement, coming from a well respected and intelligent Briefer.  Thanks.
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Online berdie

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Re: What a difference 2 months Makes
« Reply #26 on: May 29, 2020, 09:07:11 pm »
-----------------------------
Certainly survival is paramount yet didn't the Ancients also survive?
The earliest cultures/societies of the Fertile Crescent up to the Enlightenment spanned
some 10,000 years, warts and all.
Many factors let them survive and thrive, most prominently their spiritual sensibilities.
Then the Enlightenment arrived touting material betterment as Man's higher calling and
for some, his salvation.
This idea has ruled the world ever since and in my judgement hardly for the better.
Let me leave you w/2 thoughts.
* Assessing the quality of Art and Science pre and post Enlightenment;
which era was/is infinitely superior?
*  Assessing religion, is the modern Roman Catholic Church superior to
its predecessor (as well, is the Pontiff himself a Catholic?)
Stay well!



I'm not sure how much the Enlightenment had to do with materialism and lack of spirituality. I hazard to guess that when Barney looked at Fred's cave and saw that it was bigger, better and safer than his...he strove to improve his station in life. I am of the opinion the desire to excel is inherent in mankind. In my mind I imagine the first to invent fire and then cook his meat had a revelation...this will keep me warm and the meat is great. Mankind has always, more than likely, been covetous. As time progressed there was more and more to covet. Thus the increase in greed/materialism. Likewise, I think spirituality has been in existence, in different forms, since Fred and Barney were around. Some hypocritical...some not. I agree that conventional spirituality maybe at low ebb in today's time. I could have summed this up easier...the more things change, the more they remain the same.

Art and Science are two completely different animals in my mind...both pre and post Enlightenment. Thus they aren't really comparable (at least to me). Both very necessary and valuable.

The Catholic Church was far more powerful prior to the Enlightenment/Reformation. Since I value difference of opinion/belief, I don't see that split as a bad thing. My own spiritual beliefs don't align with any denomination. Consequently (not being Catholic) I don't feel qualified to comment on the current Pope. I only know what I read in the media.

As you can see, I'm not a philosopher. And not a particularly good writer...So I hope you are a good "understander". happy77

You stay well, also @Absalom   

   

Offline roamer_1

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Re: What a difference 2 months Makes
« Reply #27 on: May 29, 2020, 09:28:19 pm »

I'm not sure how much the Enlightenment had to do with materialism and lack of spirituality. I hazard to guess that when Barney looked at Fred's cave and saw that it was bigger, better and safer than his...he strove to improve his station in life. I am of the opinion the desire to excel is inherent in mankind. In my mind I imagine the first to invent fire and then cook his meat had a revelation...this will keep me warm and the meat is great. Mankind has always, more than likely, been covetous. As time progressed there was more and more to covet. Thus the increase in greed/materialism. Likewise, I think spirituality has been in existence, in different forms, since Fred and Barney were around. Some hypocritical...some not. I agree that conventional spirituality maybe at low ebb in today's time. I could have summed this up easier...the more things change, the more they remain the same.


Materialism is a subjective charge... Family of 6. never had a new car, never lived in more than 1200 ft2... But we never went hungry. Always warm and dry. And sometimes close to wealth.

One could claim I am not materially driven compared to others in this day. Even so, I have far more material wealth that most of mankind in history.

How to properly thread that needle is beyond me.

Offline EdinVA

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Re: What a difference 2 months Makes
« Reply #28 on: May 29, 2020, 09:34:09 pm »
Materialism is a subjective charge... Family of 6. never had a new car, never lived in more than 1200 ft2... But we never went hungry. Always warm and dry. And sometimes close to wealth.

One could claim I am not materially driven compared to others in this day. Even so, I have far more material wealth that most of mankind in history.

How to properly thread that needle is beyond me.
Well @roamer_1 , some work to live, and some live to work...

Offline roamer_1

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Re: What a difference 2 months Makes
« Reply #29 on: May 29, 2020, 09:50:34 pm »
Well @roamer_1 , some work to live, and some live to work...

@EdinVA , I don't know how either of those necessarily result in materialism...

I mean, where is that line?

Is it a McMansion, a boat, and a motorhome?
Or is it a cabin, a duck boat, and a doghouse on the back of a pickup?

Is it landed gentry?  Plenty of farmers would disagree..

Offline Absalom

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Re: What a difference 2 months Makes
« Reply #30 on: May 29, 2020, 09:53:37 pm »


I'm not sure how much the Enlightenment had to do with materialism and lack of spirituality. I hazard to guess that when Barney looked at Fred's cave and saw that it was bigger, better and safer than his...he strove to improve his station in life. I am of the opinion the desire to excel is inherent in mankind. In my mind I imagine the first to invent fire and then cook his meat had a revelation...this will keep me warm and the meat is great. Mankind has always, more than likely, been covetous. As time progressed there was more and more to covet. Thus the increase in greed/materialism. Likewise, I think spirituality has been in existence, in different forms, since Fred and Barney were around. Some hypocritical...some not. I agree that conventional spirituality maybe at low ebb in today's time. I could have summed this up easier...the more things change, the more they remain the same.
Art and Science are two completely different animals in my mind...both pre and post Enlightenment. Thus they aren't really comparable (at least to me). Both very necessary and valuable.
The Catholic Church was far more powerful prior to the Enlightenment/Reformation. Since I value difference of opinion/belief, I don't see that split as a bad thing. My own spiritual beliefs don't align with any denomination. Consequently (not being Catholic) I don't feel qualified to comment on the current Pope. I only know what I read in the media.
As you can see, I'm not a philosopher. And not a particularly good writer...So I hope you are a good "understander". happy77
You stay well, also @Absalom   
-------------------------------
Not going to go back and forth w/you over this word and that sentence,
unlike some; as such, your opinions are well expressed.
Stay well!
« Last Edit: May 30, 2020, 05:59:39 am by Absalom »

Offline musiclady

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Re: What a difference 2 months Makes
« Reply #31 on: May 29, 2020, 10:17:51 pm »
-----------------------------
Certainly survival is paramount yet didn't the Ancients also survive?
The earliest cultures/societies of the Fertile Crescent up to the Enlightenment spanned
some 10,000 years, warts and all.
Many factors let them survive and thrive, most prominently their spiritual sensibilities.
Then the Enlightenment arrived touting material betterment as Man's higher calling and
for some, his salvation.
This idea has ruled the world ever since and in my judgement hardly for the better.
Let me leave you w/2 thoughts.
* Assessing the quality of Art and Science pre and post Enlightenment;
which era was/is infinitely superior?

*  Assessing religion, is the modern Roman Catholic Church superior to
its predecessor (as well, is the Pontiff himself a Catholic?)
Stay well!

Ahhh............. but BEETHOVEN!!

(Influenced deeply by Aufklarung)



Nonetheless, I get your point!
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

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Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline Absalom

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Re: What a difference 2 months Makes
« Reply #32 on: May 30, 2020, 06:26:14 am »
Ahhh............. but BEETHOVEN!!
(Influenced deeply by Aufklarung)
Nonetheless, I get your point!
----------------------------------
Neither said nor implied that quality in Art and Science disappeared w/the Enlightenment; rather
my assertion is that the greatest achievements in both categories occurred before rather than after.
What does the modern world have to offer in Architecture, competing w/the Greek Acropolis in
Athens, in Painting, to the interior of the Sistine Chapel in Rome, in Music, to the harmony and rhythm of the Baroque, in Drama, to the work of Aeschylus, Sophocles and Shakespeare, to categorize just a few?
« Last Edit: May 31, 2020, 05:29:13 pm by Absalom »

Online bigheadfred

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Re: What a difference 2 months Makes
« Reply #33 on: May 30, 2020, 09:38:35 am »
Ludwig van Beethoven. Ludwig from the town of "beethoven"

Johann Sebastian Bach,,, Sebastion Johann from Bach

Johannes Chrysostomus Wolfgangus Theophilus Mozart


seriesly


Throw a millstone around my neck like "Johannes Chrysostomus Wolfgangus Theophilus Mozart" and the last will becme first.

Mozart.



She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: What a difference 2 months Makes
« Reply #34 on: May 30, 2020, 12:30:13 pm »
----------------------------------
Neither said nor implied that quality in Art and Science disappeared w/the Enlightenment; rather
my assertion is that the greatest achievements in both categories occurred before rather than after.
What does the modern world have to offer in Architecture, in contrast to the Greek Acropolis in
Athens, in Painting to the interior of the Sistine Chapel in Rome, in Music to the harmony and rhythm of the Baroque, in Drama to the work of Aeschylus, Sophocles and Shakespeare, to categorize a few?
Point taken on the architecture from days gone by.

There are certainly some outstanding examples of how we as mankind have profited from relatively recent episodes of what you refer to as 'materialism'.

The 'Ancients' had an average life span of 3 to 4 decades while we now enjoy twice that.  There is certainly some profit in living twice as long if one suffers through the plague of materialism, which has assisted in longevity by improving our healthcare system.
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Online bigheadfred

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Re: What a difference 2 months Makes
« Reply #35 on: May 30, 2020, 02:22:51 pm »
Point taken on the architecture from days gone by.

There are certainly some outstanding examples of how we as mankind have profited from relatively recent episodes of what you refer to as 'materialism'.

The 'Ancients' had an average life span of 3 to 4 decades while we now enjoy twice that.  There is certainly some profit in living twice as long if one suffers through the plague of materialism, which has assisted in longevity by improving our healthcare system.

The "Ancients' had lifespans that lasted millennia. According to Sumerian glyphs.

That is not the point.

Life with life can replicate life but it is only the Creator of life to give that life to life.
She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Offline Absalom

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Re: What a difference 2 months Makes
« Reply #36 on: May 30, 2020, 08:41:34 pm »
Ludwig van Beethoven. Ludwig from the town of "beethoven"
Johann Sebastian Bach,,, Sebastion Johann from Bach
Johannes Chrysostomus Wolfgangus Theophilus Mozart seriesly
Throw a millstone around my neck like "Johannes Chrysostomus Wolfgangus Theophilus Mozart" and the last will became first. Mozart.
----------------------
Indeed Bach, Beethoven and Mozart were geniuses who matured and created
during the Enlightenment, which spanned some 75 years commencing in 1715.
Yet isn't it fair to assert that the the earlier Baroque Era was the legacy/heritage
that fed the creative impulse of these three.
As we move on through the 19th, 20th and 21st centuries, isn't it also obvious
that the quality of the music we moderns produce bears no linkage to that of its
pre-Enlightenment creators.
Further can't that be said of all the Art we moderns produce.
Anyway all opinions are entitled, so stay well.