Author Topic: Our universe not so special ??  (Read 3442 times)

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Offline roamer_1

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Re: Our universe not so special ??
« Reply #50 on: May 26, 2020, 12:50:26 am »
Your own lying eyes? You've seen all of this stuff, like giants, whales swallowing people, burning bushes etc.?


Like I said, I have personally had my hand in a Sasquatch track, twice in my life. Your science discounts Sasquatch (a giant btw). Who shall I believe? your science or my own lying eyes?

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I've personally never seen anything close to that, nor have I seen any proof of it. I have seen proof of stuff in science, or at least I know that the methodology to arrive at some of the more abstract conclusions is sounder than believing some book.

Nor are you likely to see anything close to that.. firmly ensconced in the matrix as it were.

Tell me, what does your science do with megalithic cyclopean architecture, found the world over, that we can neither build, nor even begin to move some of the rocks, not to mention sculpt them with all of our vaunted technology applied?

Your science says they were built with stone and copper tools by near savages... Do you believe that?

Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Re: Our universe not so special ??
« Reply #51 on: May 26, 2020, 12:53:55 am »
Like I said, I have personally had my hand in a Sasquatch track, twice in my life. Your science discounts Sasquatch (a giant btw). Who shall I believe? your science or my own lying eyes?

Seeing a track is one thing, I need better proof of them.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.


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Tell me, what does your science do with megalithic cyclopean architecture, found the world over, that we can neither build, nor even begin to move some of the rocks, not to mention sculpt them with all of our vaunted technology applied?

Your science says they were built with stone and copper tools by near savages... Do you believe that?

Do you have a link for what you're talking about?

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Our universe not so special ??
« Reply #52 on: May 26, 2020, 01:15:08 am »
Seeing a track is one thing, I need better proof of them.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.


LOL! of course you do. Lord knows you cannot believe a track on the ground. Not a single track, mind you... in both cases a track way. several prints. Enough to track a ways. One was female. I can tell by the way she pissed. The other a huge male with a stride I could barely leap across, and sunk deep despite its surface area, much deeper than my near 300lbs and 40 lb pack could even begin to do.

That IS extraordinary evidence. I know the sign of every single thing in these woods, and I have been tracking since I was a pup. The natives know he's there, and have stories going back centuries. The hillbillies know he's there. Thousands of prints. Thousands of fecal samples. Thousands of hair samples. Even DNA. But y'all need extraordinary evidence.

Can't see what's plain on the ground. Because science.

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Do you have a link for what you're talking about?

No... Go look. search 'Megaliths' or 'Cyclopean Architecture' ... Ancient architecture... It's everywhere. Start with the three sisters of Baalbek. Tell me how they were moved. Look in Egypt, Japan, the Czech countries, Anglo Celtic countries...the Pre Aztec/Mayan... Megaliths are literally everywhere.

Pay attention to hardness too - granites and diorite... copper tools... riiight.

Offline truth_seeker

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Re: Our universe not so special ??
« Reply #53 on: May 26, 2020, 01:54:41 am »
After the jury listened to the lawyer explain DNA, one OJ Simpson juror stated: "what about DNA? Eberybody gots DNA.

Dat don't prove nuthin.

OTOH they found the Arc, or made one in Kentucky, so that settles that.

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Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Re: Our universe not so special ??
« Reply #54 on: May 26, 2020, 02:01:36 am »
LOL! of course you do. Lord knows you cannot believe a track on the ground. Not a single track, mind you... in both cases a track way. several prints. Enough to track a ways. One was female. I can tell by the way she pissed. The other a huge male with a stride I could barely leap across, and sunk deep despite its surface area, much deeper than my near 300lbs and 40 lb pack could even begin to do.

That IS extraordinary evidence. I know the sign of every single thing in these woods, and I have been tracking since I was a pup. The natives know he's there, and have stories going back centuries. The hillbillies know he's there. Thousands of prints. Thousands of fecal samples. Thousands of hair samples. Even DNA. But y'all need extraordinary evidence.

Not sure how this got turned into a thread on the veracity of bigfoot, but at least that's in the realm of science. i'm sure there's undiscovered creatures the world over. Of course, it's amusing that every few years the media gets fooled by some clowns with a gorilla suit in a freezer who claim to have "found bigfoot".  :rolling:

I'd love for it to be real, but i need some concreate proof. With valid DNA evidence it could be shown to fit into our understanding of the great apes tree somehow. And 100 years of bigfoot "sightings" and nothing more than some tracks and some deer hair?

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No... Go look. search 'Megaliths' or 'Cyclopean Architecture' ... Ancient architecture... It's everywhere. Start with the three sisters of Baalbek. Tell me how they were moved. Look in Egypt, Japan, the Czech countries, Anglo Celtic countries...the Pre Aztec/Mayan... Megaliths are literally everywhere.

Pay attention to hardness too - granites and diorite... copper tools... riiight.

So back to our original debate, is this supposed to prove that giants exist and the earth is 6000 years old?

Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Re: Our universe not so special ??
« Reply #55 on: May 26, 2020, 02:07:47 am »

Offline Absalom

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Re: Our universe not so special ??
« Reply #56 on: May 26, 2020, 03:02:12 am »
The power of Physics derives from its Laws and Principles which advance Mankind:
* The Principle of Archimedes explains buoyancy, permitting ocean travel.
* The Laws of Motion of Newton permit travel by auto.
* The Principle of Bernoulli explains aerodynamic lift permitting travel by airplane.
There are dozens of these Laws and Principles which affect the daily life of Man.
In contrast, the Theories of Darwin and Einstein, among many, are just that, Theories,
which have virtually no impact on daily life. Rather they are a catalyst for speculation
by those who desire to remake this world, as well as Man, in their own image.

Offline Absalom

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Re: Our universe not so special ??rB
« Reply #57 on: May 26, 2020, 05:18:59 am »
Evolutionary 'science' is still stuck on Darwin, a nearly 200 y/o theory.
As theories go, evolution sucks. It's wildly speculative, but very little proof.
-----------------------------
Indeed it's merely a Theory, yet the evolutionist fanatics insist it's a Law.

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Our universe not so special ??
« Reply #58 on: May 26, 2020, 08:13:21 pm »
Not sure how this got turned into a thread on the veracity of bigfoot, but at least that's in the realm of science. i'm sure there's undiscovered creatures the world over. Of course, it's amusing that every few years the media gets fooled by some clowns with a gorilla suit in a freezer who claim to have "found bigfoot".  :rolling:

I'd love for it to be real, but i need some concreate proof. With valid DNA evidence it could be shown to fit into our understanding of the great apes tree somehow. And 100 years of bigfoot "sightings" and nothing more than some tracks and some deer hair?


There IS valid DNA. Double blind, two labs. But unless you go looking, you'll never know.

But that is not the point. I don't care what you believe about it. I KNOW. I have had my hand in the bloody track. incontrovertible evidence.  There could have been no other thing that laid those tracks.

Yet science convinces you, or at least most, that I am a quack, and that there is no proof, YET for fifty years and even now, absolute forgeries like the piltdown man are in the history books.

THAT is the point, and why should I believe it? That which I know to be real, pushed down. That which is false lifted up. And if I can point to it there, and in the timeline attributed to Egypt, and in the absurdity of human and societal development - HISTORY ACCORDING TO SCIENCE - Why should I believe any of it?

I know it to cower behind group think and politics... also in evolution. Also in the Flood. Why would I not assume the very same across the board? It all works the same way.

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So back to our original debate, is this supposed to prove that giants exist and the earth is 6000 years old?

It is supposed to prove that a false narrative exists. Explain this world-wide society, built in stone, that we cannot do with all our might today. Yet the whole of it written off as being built by savages. Because science.

It is errata, and stands against the proofs. If they cannot tell me that, why the hell should I believe the fairy stories they are so positive of that assuredly happened millions and millions of years ago?

I think the story is entirely different.
Like I said, history attests that men were fighting dragons (read dinos)... Matter-of-factly, in military reports.

The same with giants. I mean to pit history - factual accounts in known time - Against what 'science' has to say. And when the two are opposed, which they very certainly are, which then will you believe?

Offline Sighlass

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Re: Our universe not so special ??
« Reply #59 on: May 26, 2020, 08:38:19 pm »
When these thread pop up, I usually just remember Job 38 where God just mentions that we don't know, will never know, and probable are foolish thinking we can figure it out. String theory out your behinds, it is beyond our grasp.

4. Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. 
5  Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?   
6  Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 
7  When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? 
Exodus 18:21 Furthermore, you shall select out of all the people able men who fear God, men of truth, those who hate dishonest gain; and you shall place these over them as leaders over ....

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Our universe not so special ??
« Reply #60 on: May 26, 2020, 08:46:43 pm »
When these thread pop up, I usually just remember Job 38 where God just mentions that we don't know, will never know, and probable are foolish thinking we can figure it out. String theory out your behinds, it is beyond our grasp.

4. Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. 
5  Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?   
6  Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 
7  When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?


Quote from: 2 Pete 3 KJV
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

-2 Peter 3 : 3-7

 :beer:

Offline Sighlass

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Exodus 18:21 Furthermore, you shall select out of all the people able men who fear God, men of truth, those who hate dishonest gain; and you shall place these over them as leaders over ....

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Our universe not so special ??
« Reply #62 on: May 26, 2020, 09:18:37 pm »
Whazziss got to do wit' Bigfoot?  :pondering:
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Offline roamer_1

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Re: Our universe not so special ??
« Reply #63 on: May 26, 2020, 09:24:59 pm »
Whazziss got to do wit' Bigfoot?  :pondering:

Just a tool for demonstration purposes.

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Our universe not so special ??
« Reply #64 on: May 26, 2020, 09:32:46 pm »
Just a tool for demonstration purposes.

Ah!  An anology!   :beer: :beer: :2popcorn:
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Offline The_Reader_David

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Re: Our universe not so special ??
« Reply #65 on: May 26, 2020, 09:48:58 pm »
Well, this thread has wandered off a long way from the original topic -- a gee-whiz post about the things string theorists claim in a desperate attempt to keep all of physics inside differential geometry, rather than needing to learn any other mathematics, thereby rendering their enterprise non-scientific (and disadvantaging it in terms of Occam's Razor, in comparison to a theory invoking Divine intervention, by needing not one not-directly observable entity, but a whole host of them, string vacuum states in the early universe, dark matter, dark energy, a whole host of "other universes",...).

I would observe about the rest of what has come up:

(1)  Strictly speaking evolution means "change in allele frequency over time".  That this happens is an indisputable fact.  What is open to debate scientifically is whether the Darwinian mechanism of "random" mutation and natural selection provides a complete or even adequate explanation for the change in allele frequency.  There are hints that there may be some subtle Lamarkian mechanisms involved as well, and epigenetics makes the whole project much more complicated.

Of course the "debate" about Darwinian evolution is not primarily scientific, but rather metaphysical, and is so heated because both sides seem to accept as true the notion that a mechanism that involves randomness is somehow or other contrary to the mechanism's operation being intentional.  One side says "random variation was involved in the development of biological diversity, therefore there is no Creator"; the other says, "God made the world, humanity included, therefore a description of its making that involves random variation must be false."  I say, remember that hardening metal and annealing metal involve sequences of thermal (that is random) effects, but an archeologist who finds a piece of well-hardened metal or a piece of annealed metal will assume they are a fragment of an artifact, something created intentionally.  We Orthodox Christians say "I believe in One God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible..."  Among the invisible things are the laws of physics, the laws of logic, the laws of probability, space, time, numerosity, extent .... The Sovereignty of God does not end at the door of a casino.

(2)  Biblical literalism is the odd view that the books of Scripture were addressed principally to post-Rennaisance rationalists, and thus that their truths should be discovered by reading them with the same mind-set (we Orthodox prefer the word phronema) with which one reads post-Rennaisance scientific treatises.  This was certainly not how Christians who lived in the same culture as the Holy Apostles read them.  St. Basil the Great, whose commentary on Genesis, The Hexameron is often held up to claim the Fathers of the Church were literalists in their interpretation of Genesis, writes early in the book, "it matters not whether you say 'day' or 'aeon', the thought is the same".  There is also an ancient Christian tradition of referring to the Age to Come as "the Eighth and Eternal Day", which refers to the related tradition that all of human history lies within the seventh day on which God rested from His works.  The Psalmist's warning about God's time scales is a bit more flexible than equating a day and a millenium: "For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night."  (Note the deliberate lack of precision, a watch in the night is perhaps 3 hours, and it is not a day, but 'yesterday when it is past', the mere memory of a day gone by.)  I commend to your attention the commentary on Genesis by probably the best Greek lay theologian of the last century, Alexander Kalamiros, here: https://www.scribd.com/document/75080212/The-Six-Dawns-by-Dr-Alexander-Kalomiros .  By reading Genesis in the partistic phronema, rather than a rationalist phronema, he quite masterfully shows that there is no conflict between the Truth of Scripture and the truths of modern science.
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Offline roamer_1

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Re: Our universe not so special ??
« Reply #66 on: May 26, 2020, 10:49:42 pm »
Well, this thread has wandered off a long way from the original topic -- a gee-whiz post about the things string theorists claim in a desperate attempt to keep all of physics inside differential geometry, rather than needing to learn any other mathematics, thereby rendering their enterprise non-scientific (and disadvantaging it in terms of Occam's Razor, in comparison to a theory invoking Divine intervention, by needing not one not-directly observable entity, but a whole host of them, string vacuum states in the early universe, dark matter, dark energy, a whole host of "other universes",...).

I would observe about the rest of what has come up:

(1)  Strictly speaking evolution means "change in allele frequency over time".  That this happens is an indisputable fact.  What is open to debate scientifically is whether the Darwinian mechanism of "random" mutation and natural selection provides a complete or even adequate explanation for the change in allele frequency.  There are hints that there may be some subtle Lamarkian mechanisms involved as well, and epigenetics makes the whole project much more complicated.

Of course the "debate" about Darwinian evolution is not primarily scientific, but rather metaphysical, and is so heated because both sides seem to accept as true the notion that a mechanism that involves randomness is somehow or other contrary to the mechanism's operation being intentional.  One side says "random variation was involved in the development of biological diversity, therefore there is no Creator"; the other says, "God made the world, humanity included, therefore a description of its making that involves random variation must be false."  I say, remember that hardening metal and annealing metal involve sequences of thermal (that is random) effects, but an archeologist who finds a piece of well-hardened metal or a piece of annealed metal will assume they are a fragment of an artifact, something created intentionally.  We Orthodox Christians say "I believe in One God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible..."  Among the invisible things are the laws of physics, the laws of logic, the laws of probability, space, time, numerosity, extent .... The Sovereignty of God does not end at the door of a casino.

(2)  Biblical literalism is the odd view that the books of Scripture were addressed principally to post-Rennaisance rationalists, and thus that their truths should be discovered by reading them with the same mind-set (we Orthodox prefer the word phronema) with which one reads post-Rennaisance scientific treatises.  This was certainly not how Christians who lived in the same culture as the Holy Apostles read them.  St. Basil the Great, whose commentary on Genesis, The Hexameron is often held up to claim the Fathers of the Church were literalists in their interpretation of Genesis, writes early in the book, "it matters not whether you say 'day' or 'aeon', the thought is the same".  There is also an ancient Christian tradition of referring to the Age to Come as "the Eighth and Eternal Day", which refers to the related tradition that all of human history lies within the seventh day on which God rested from His works.  The Psalmist's warning about God's time scales is a bit more flexible than equating a day and a millenium: "For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night."  (Note the deliberate lack of precision, a watch in the night is perhaps 3 hours, and it is not a day, but 'yesterday when it is past', the mere memory of a day gone by.)  I commend to your attention the commentary on Genesis by probably the best Greek lay theologian of the last century, Alexander Kalamiros, here: https://www.scribd.com/document/75080212/The-Six-Dawns-by-Dr-Alexander-Kalomiros .  By reading Genesis in the partistic phronema, rather than a rationalist phronema, he quite masterfully shows that there is no conflict between the Truth of Scripture and the truths of modern science.

Well, I cannot get to the recommended material, merely a preface.

If that preface us what you meant to point to, rather than the work, Then I can reject it on its face. The primary criteria being:

First, Yah did not create an ascending creation... something striving for the perfection of Man... No, the whole of it was perfect. In fact he draws that perfection in a beast as well - The Behemoth - which Yah also claims as perfect.

Secondly, asserting that Yah has given us 'science' so we must not seek against it omits that Yah also identifies a 'science so called', which leads one to ask which one we are seeking after. Because Yah proclaims he will make them laughingstocks in the end.

Thirdly, in a more practical sense, DNA flatly destroys evolutionary theory. The degradation thereof, and the basics of thermodynamics do too. Man is not ascendant, but rather descendant. Nothing gets better with time, but rather decays. The very same with genetic coding. Evolving does not make better, it makes worse.

In the post you opine that evolution is fact. Within a kind that is obvious, and no one has contended otherwise. But those changes are limited to kind and there is no evidence otherwise.

I would submit that DNA contains all that myriad variety from its start within a kind. And that DNA is degrading across the ages, not improving. Genesis describes 5 kinds of flesh I believe, and in fact describes as part of the fall a corruption of all flesh, the primary reason for the flood. the mixing of flesh is directly against Torah.

If that is the case (which it is) then the boundaries that set flesh as a 'kind' are set, and they do not mix naturally. lest there would be no adamant law against it. And it is adamant. With emphasis.

Thus the mixing above the 'kind' would require more than nature - a manipulation - one present twice on this earth... Once in Noah's day, And today. Because science.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Our universe not so special ??rB
« Reply #67 on: May 27, 2020, 07:00:24 am »
Evolution is 100 percent fact !! Anyone who disagrees is “ Science illiterate”
String theory has the math but not the “ physical evidence “..yet

Evolution has the genetics/DNA, the fossil record and many other things .
For example , Your DNA and a fish DNA are very similar and suggest common origins . Your arm  and a cats paw are Very similar in origins . Humans are littered with bad evolutionary designs and dead ends

The Bible is good for morals and teachings but it has zero science !!!
100% fact? seems I heard the same thing about Anthropogenic Global Warming, back before the world ended a few times. Oh wait. It didn't...Maybe in just 10 more years?

The fossil record has more holes than a collander.
There are a buttload of hypothetical ancestral stocks, transitional forms (missing links), and dotted lines just to get to amphioxus.

It stands to reason creatures in a similar environment would have to have similar body chemistries, otherwise, they'd be dead. Quicker and easier to create them than evolve them, and there is your common origin.
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Re: Our universe not so special ??
« Reply #68 on: May 27, 2020, 11:19:02 am »
I don’t want to get into a Darwin debate on this thread.

All I know is the first time I ever looked into a telescope, and it was the one at Princeton University for a Girl Scout badge in 4th grade, I’ve been hooked as an amateur astronomer, ever since.

Now that more and more exoplanets are being discovered it may be our universe isn’t special. The Milky Way May be structured like millions of galaxies, and when it collides with Andromeda in several billion years, that too may be considered an “ordinary” or “common” thing.

All I know is when I look through a telescope, or I see pictures from Hubble, Cassini, Juno, Huygens (which landed on Titian) etc, I’m struck in awe and wonder. It may be ordinary in the grand scheme of things, or if I was a space traveler like say Captain Kirk, or Picard, but to me they are among the most beautiful sights I’ve ever seen. Extraordinary. They make me happy, and that is priceless.

I know I’ll never get to go to another planet or moon in my lifetime but I do in my dreams. 
« Last Edit: May 27, 2020, 11:21:58 am by Gefn »
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Offline bigheadfred

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Re: Our universe not so special ??
« Reply #69 on: May 27, 2020, 11:46:20 am »
Darwinian Dumbasses

Astro-physicists estimate that there are no more than 1080 infinitesimal "particles" in the universe, and that the age of the universe in its present form is no greater than 1018 seconds (30 billion years). Assuming each particle can participate in a thousand billion (1012) different events every second (this is impossibly high, of course), then the greatest number of events that could ever happen (or trials that could ever be made) in all the universe throughout its entire history is only 1080 x 1018 x 1012, or 10110 (most authorities would make this figure much lower, about 1050). Any event with a probability of less than one chance in 10110, therefore, cannot occur. Its probability becomes zero, at least in our known universe.

Thus, the above-suggested ordered arrangement of 100 components has a zero probability. It could never happen by chance. Since every single living cell is infinitely more complex and ordered than this, it is impossible that even the simplest form of life could ever have originated by chance. Even the simplest replicating protein molecule that could be imagined has been shown by Golay1 to have a probability of one in 10450. Salisbury2 calculates the probability of a typical DNA chain to be one in 10600.
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