Author Topic: BREAKING: Trump orders all places of worship open  (Read 1879 times)

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Online roamer_1

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Re: BREAKING: Trump orders all places of worship open
« Reply #25 on: May 22, 2020, 07:44:33 pm »
The Chair rules that both can happen concurrently. In this case having a 'decider' is the only way the happy result can be attained.

Of course it would be much better if we weren't in this situation but here we are.

There's the truth of it.
And why there should not have been a 'decider' in the first place.

Offline jmyrlefuller

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Re: BREAKING: Trump orders all places of worship open
« Reply #26 on: May 22, 2020, 07:49:58 pm »
Yea sure...Trump wants to force open all places of worship regardless of any governors' order.
That's all fine and good.
But why didn't he do it earlier?!
Concerned about unnecessary outbreaks, that's my best guess. That, and as I said upthread, he probably deferred to Fauci and Birx back in April when he wanted to do it on Easter. The virus was a greater and still less-known threat at that point.
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Offline skeeter

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Re: BREAKING: Trump orders all places of worship open
« Reply #27 on: May 22, 2020, 07:52:19 pm »
Concerned about unnecessary outbreaks, that's my best guess. That, and as I said upthread, he probably deferred to Fauci and Birx back in April when he wanted to do it on Easter. The virus was a greater and still less-known threat at that point.

My guess is his team is looking at the data coming in from states that are re-opening, and have deemed the risk of reopening churches minimal now.

And heck I'm realistic - its a good look from a political POV.


Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: BREAKING: Trump orders all places of worship open
« Reply #28 on: May 22, 2020, 08:05:58 pm »
Yea sure...Trump wants to force open all places of worship regardless of any governors' order.
That's all fine and good.
But why didn't he do it earlier?!

AG Barr has been dropping hints for some time that the Constitution, with all the Amendments, is not suspended for a Plandemic.  To my small mind, that means he'll move forward on suing states that persist in keeping churches closed while allowing Walmart, Lowes and CVS to remain open.  I'd be interested in finding out if Mosques were exempted from any of the states' orders, as well.

To @musiclady's point, that doesn't mean all churches would be forced to open, but would rather allow the Pastors to decide if they'll open.  They do love their flocks, and will do what it takes to keep them safe.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2020, 08:07:05 pm by Cyber Liberty »
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Online mystery-ak

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Re: BREAKING: Trump orders all places of worship open
« Reply #29 on: May 22, 2020, 08:14:46 pm »
Judge Napolitano: Trump doesn't have right to override governors on church openings

Quote
"As ill-advised as these gubernatorial orders are, as essential as is the right to worship, as fundamental as it is, as absolutely protected by the First Amendment as it is, the president does not have any authority to override the governors," he told Fox's "The Daily Briefing."

more
https://thehill.com/homenews/media/499204-judge-napolitano-trump-doesnt-have-right-to-override-governors-on-church
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Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: BREAKING: Trump orders all places of worship open
« Reply #30 on: May 22, 2020, 08:20:55 pm »
Lol.... I was gonna comment on that too.  So thanks for saving me the trouble.   :beer:

Mega dittos!   :laugh:

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: BREAKING: Trump orders all places of worship open
« Reply #31 on: May 22, 2020, 08:27:31 pm »
My guess is his team is looking at the data coming in from states that are re-opening, and have deemed the risk of reopening churches minimal now.

And heck I'm realistic - its a good look from a political POV.

I agree @skeeter  POTUS had to wait until the data showed a true downturn.  He's taking the responsibility for churches reopening .... I think his waiting until he was firmer ground makes good sense.

Now waiting for heads in California and New York to start exploding.

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: BREAKING: Trump orders all places of worship open
« Reply #32 on: May 22, 2020, 08:29:53 pm »
Judge Napolitano: Trump doesn't have right to override governors on church openings

more
https://thehill.com/homenews/media/499204-judge-napolitano-trump-doesnt-have-right-to-override-governors-on-church

The good judge has missed the DOJ's opinion on church closing.  I think designating them essential is more in line with Barr's opinion than Napolitano's.

Offline bilo

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Re: BREAKING: Trump orders all places of worship open
« Reply #33 on: May 22, 2020, 08:33:22 pm »
Perhaps he should also just open up the country and then we won't have to have him sign trillion dollar legislation.

This all has gone on long enough.

 :amen:

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Offline jmyrlefuller

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Re: BREAKING: Trump orders all places of worship open
« Reply #34 on: May 22, 2020, 08:36:29 pm »
Judge Napolitano: Trump doesn't have right to override governors on church openings

more
https://thehill.com/homenews/media/499204-judge-napolitano-trump-doesnt-have-right-to-override-governors-on-church
He does if the governors never had the authority to do so in the first place.

At least in New York, the governor acknowledged this—instead he "strongly discouraged" in-person attendance. And most have complied, though a few have gone to a drive-in model, which is now explicitly permitted.
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Offline bilo

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Re: BREAKING: Trump orders all places of worship open
« Reply #35 on: May 22, 2020, 08:43:59 pm »
He should open everything.  Some of these mega church have hundreds, even probably thousand on a Sunday. I want all churches to open but it doesn't make sense to allow church to open while a person cannot even operate their small business day to day.  Some might even only get a couple customers a day.  Come on.  Where is their liberty?  Its been the same all along.  People deciding who is essential and who is not.

And believe me this is only going to cause people who hate religion to hate it more.  It will cause people to have bad feelings about church and people.  They will feel like they have no rights, but religious people do.  So this is not about freedom of religion.  This is about destroying religion one more step.

I don't agree.  Just will cause hate of Jesus because people will feel discriminated against.

You're right about this.

Lives are being destroyed by these shut downs. Liberty is for those that don't fall apart when dealing with risk as well as those that do fall apart. IOW, if your anxiety about the Wuhan Virus is overwhelming you stay home, but don't stop me from going on about my life. We are not running out of hospital beds or ventilators so there's no reason to stay shut in.

As for your second point, I think the haters will hate no matter what. However, those with open ears and hearts will see the joy we have sharing worship of God and some may want that in their life, when they answer the call they will be saved.
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Offline bilo

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Re: BREAKING: Trump orders all places of worship open
« Reply #36 on: May 22, 2020, 08:46:45 pm »
Yea sure...Trump wants to force open all places of worship regardless of any governors' order.
That's all fine and good.
But why didn't he do it earlier?!

Because he actually believes this is a Republic.
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Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: BREAKING: Trump orders all places of worship open
« Reply #37 on: May 22, 2020, 08:50:11 pm »
Benny
@bennyjohnson
·
1m
BREAKING: President Trump deems ‘Houses of Worship’ as ‘Essential’

“In America, we need more prayer, not less.”

VIDEO at link: 

https://twitter.com/bennyjohnson/status/1263891389047242752

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Offline Chosen Daughter

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Re: BREAKING: Trump orders all places of worship open
« Reply #39 on: May 23, 2020, 12:44:02 am »
Sorry Jennifer, but the damned-if-you-do-or-don't schtick of jumping on both sides of the line ,and declaring yourself right each time, only makes you look intellectually dishonest and cravenly opportunist.


Well certainly I will be glad to get back to church.  But after I mentioned the church someone burned in Mississippi I asked myself will this stop that?  And my answer was no, and it will probably be worse.  Resentment is a strong emotion.  And of course I could be wrong but if you don't give everyone liberty expect resentment.  I just can't see how that will further the ministry of Christ.  And I worry that there will be more hate crimes against the church and people of faith.

And that is my answer Sean Hannity.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2020, 12:45:48 am by Chosen Daughter »
AG William Barr: "I'm recused from that matter because one of the law firms that represented Epstein long ago was a firm that I subsequently joined for a period of time."

Alexander Acosta Labor Secretary resigned under pressure concerning his "sweetheart deal" with Jeffrey Epstein.  He was under consideration for AG after Sessions was removed, but was forced to resign instead.

Offline Free Vulcan

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Re: BREAKING: Trump orders all places of worship open
« Reply #40 on: May 23, 2020, 02:55:30 am »

Well certainly I will be glad to get back to church.  But after I mentioned the church someone burned in Mississippi I asked myself will this stop that?  And my answer was no, and it will probably be worse.  Resentment is a strong emotion.  And of course I could be wrong but if you don't give everyone liberty expect resentment.  I just can't see how that will further the ministry of Christ.  And I worry that there will be more hate crimes against the church and people of faith.

And that is my answer Sean Hannity.

And if he didn't open the churches he'd be a tyrant and a dictator against religion, the 1st amendment, blah blah and so on.

But please, keep hopping.
The Republic is lost.

Offline Chosen Daughter

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Re: BREAKING: Trump orders all places of worship open
« Reply #41 on: May 23, 2020, 03:16:18 am »
And if he didn't open the churches he'd be a tyrant and a dictator against religion, the 1st amendment, blah blah and so on.

But please, keep hopping.

And again if you go back to my previous posts you will see that I support the decision to open up churches and house of worship.  My point is that there still will be people who consider Trump a dictator.  It will be the ones who don't have church or go to any house of worship.  It will be business owners who wonder why there can be a thousand in a church building but he can't open his mom and pop business.  And there will be resentment.

Open everything is what I am saying.  If he can open the church he can open the businesses too.
AG William Barr: "I'm recused from that matter because one of the law firms that represented Epstein long ago was a firm that I subsequently joined for a period of time."

Alexander Acosta Labor Secretary resigned under pressure concerning his "sweetheart deal" with Jeffrey Epstein.  He was under consideration for AG after Sessions was removed, but was forced to resign instead.

Offline DB

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Re: BREAKING: Trump orders all places of worship open
« Reply #42 on: May 23, 2020, 03:41:11 am »
If congress wants to get things going again they need to pass laws that protect businesses/public organizations from lawsuits for getting exposed to Covid19. That going to or working for any business/public organization is explicitly at your own risk. If people want to go to church or go to a movie, whatever, it is up to them to accept the risks. Then businesses can open without fear of being sued out of existence.

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: BREAKING: Trump orders all places of worship open
« Reply #43 on: May 23, 2020, 03:53:29 am »
If congress wants to get things going again they need to pass laws that protect businesses/public organizations from lawsuits for getting exposed to Covid19. That going to or working for any business/public organization is explicitly at your own risk. If people want to go to church or go to a movie, whatever, it is up to them to accept the risks. Then businesses can open without fear of being sued out of existence.

I'm pretty sure there's a Bill in the Senate concerning business laibility.  Don't know the particulars at the moment.
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: BREAKING: Trump orders all places of worship open
« Reply #44 on: May 23, 2020, 04:42:13 am »
Perhaps he should also just open up the country and then we won't have to have him sign trillion dollar legislation.

This all has gone on long enough.
He does not have the authority to override the Governors in their respective jurisdictions in thee matters of virus response except when that response conflicts directly with the US Constitution.

“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Shutting down Churches and threatening to keep them closed goes beyond the Constitutional authority of the Governors or localities.
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Offline Chosen Daughter

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Re: BREAKING: Trump orders all places of worship open
« Reply #45 on: May 23, 2020, 03:17:59 pm »
He does not have the authority to override the Governors in their respective jurisdictions in thee matters of virus response except when that response conflicts directly with the US Constitution.

“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Shutting down Churches and threatening to keep them closed goes beyond the Constitutional authority of the Governors or localities.

It really depends on how you interpret that.  Its says ; or the right of the people  peaceably to assemble and to petition the Government....

First of all I think that everyone has religion.  They have some sort of belief, even if it is not in a traditional religion.  Secondly this Amendment is broad and covers pretty much all people who want to assemble.  Be it in their business or in a church.  (opening their business under restriction is petition the Government for a redress of grievances) 

But I withdraw criticism based solely on the idea that Trump could, and should be working to open up the entire country.  To restore everyone's freedom to assemble.  I hope he is.  Because I believe this can only have an adverse affect on the mission to reach the unbeliever to Christ.  I don't want to have special treatment.  I want the Constitution to be upheld as intended.   
« Last Edit: May 23, 2020, 03:48:03 pm by Chosen Daughter »
AG William Barr: "I'm recused from that matter because one of the law firms that represented Epstein long ago was a firm that I subsequently joined for a period of time."

Alexander Acosta Labor Secretary resigned under pressure concerning his "sweetheart deal" with Jeffrey Epstein.  He was under consideration for AG after Sessions was removed, but was forced to resign instead.

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: BREAKING: Trump orders all places of worship open
« Reply #46 on: May 23, 2020, 03:36:01 pm »
It really depends on how you interpret that.  Its says ; or the right of the people  peaceably to assemble and to petition the Government....

First of all I think that everyone has religion.  They have some sort of belief, even if it is not in a traditional religion.  Secondly this Amendment is broad and covers pretty much all people who want to assemble.  Be it in their business or in a church.

But I withdraw criticism based solely on the idea that Trump could, and should be working to open up the entire country.  To restore everyone's freedom to assemble.  I hope he is.  Because I believe this can only have an adverse affect on the mission to reach the unbeliever to Christ.  I don't want to have special treatment.  I want the Constitution to be upheld as intended.

And that is the bottom line.  It remains to be seen if the Rat politicians can be reined in, now that they've tasted the power to command whole populations.
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Offline Chosen Daughter

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Re: BREAKING: Trump orders all places of worship open
« Reply #47 on: May 23, 2020, 03:51:56 pm »
Good information for businesses:

COVID-19: Emergency Powers and Constitutional Limits
Supreme Court and Appellate Alert
March 23, 2020

Takings Clause
Although the Due Process Clause does not afford businesses much protection, the Takings Clause of the Fifth Amendment may offer more. Under the Takings Clause, the government may not take private property for public use “without just compensation.” But whether an action constitutes a “taking” often depends on the nature of the government’s action. Below, we outline the different takings arguments in three situations:

1. Forced business closures
If the government forces a business to close indefinitely due to the pandemic, it could be considered a “regulatory taking.” In Lucas v. South Carolina Coastal Council, the Supreme Court stated that government action depriving owners of “all economically beneficial or productive use of the[ir] land” is a taking requiring just compensation.3 But if the closure is only temporary, then a court will be much less likely to deem it a “taking”; the Supreme Court has said that property “cannot be rendered valueless by a temporary prohibition on economic use, because the property will recover value as soon as the prohibition is lifted.”4 Assuming that any closures are temporary, a takings argument is unlikely to prove successful. But longer-term closures, or specialized circumstances that are the equivalent of a permanent closure (such as a closure that imposes an extreme or peculiar hardship on a business), may bolster a takings claim....

https://www.akingump.com/en/news-insights/covid-19-emergency-powers-and-constitutional-limits.html

We are way past a temporary situation and it could be considered a taking of property because many businesses will be forced to close.

AG William Barr: "I'm recused from that matter because one of the law firms that represented Epstein long ago was a firm that I subsequently joined for a period of time."

Alexander Acosta Labor Secretary resigned under pressure concerning his "sweetheart deal" with Jeffrey Epstein.  He was under consideration for AG after Sessions was removed, but was forced to resign instead.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: BREAKING: Trump orders all places of worship open
« Reply #48 on: May 24, 2020, 05:40:07 am »
It really depends on how you interpret that.  Its says ; or the right of the people  peaceably to assemble and to petition the Government....

First of all I think that everyone has religion.  They have some sort of belief, even if it is not in a traditional religion.  Secondly this Amendment is broad and covers pretty much all people who want to assemble.  Be it in their business or in a church.  (opening their business under restriction is petition the Government for a redress of grievances) 

But I withdraw criticism based solely on the idea that Trump could, and should be working to open up the entire country.  To restore everyone's freedom to assemble.  I hope he is.  Because I believe this can only have an adverse affect on the mission to reach the unbeliever to Christ.  I don't want to have special treatment.  I want the Constitution to be upheld as intended.
Well, I would have simply highlighted which of the five rights enumerated there apply, but I got lazy and emboldened all of them.
Stop believers from congregating for worship and what is upheld?  no law respecting an establishment of religion...  those who don't believe or congregate as a result of their belief are established.
Stop believers from congregating and ... or prohibiting the free exercise thereof is violated.
Stop believers from congregating and ...or the right of the people peaceably to assemble is violated
That's three of the five in my non lawyerly opinion.

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Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline dancer

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Re: BREAKING: Trump orders all places of worship open
« Reply #49 on: May 25, 2020, 07:15:06 am »
Can't you just accept good news coming from the white house, at long friggen last?
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