Georgia shooting of Ahmaud Arbery spurs outcry

[goatprairie]

Pretty bold statement.

What knowledge do you possess which prompts you to make such a statement?

So you can, like the McMichaels did, see a person running down the road, assume he had just committed a crime, jump out of your vehicle, and point a loaded gun at him or her?
If that's the case, then maybe we can assume any person we see running down the road had just committed a crime, accost him or her and point a loaded gun at him or her.
Well, we can't. The McMichaels had no idea Arbery had committed a crime.
The elder McMichael saw someone he knew from a previous incident and just decided to stop and question him WHILE POINTING A LOADED WEAPON AT HIM!!!
He had absolutely no authority to do so.
Citizens arrests are only allowable when a citizen has seen a crime committed. This was not the case with Arbery. They had no idea what Arbery had been doing. They simply decided to take the law into their hands.

[goatprairie]

I gave up asking.  Goat just "knows."  It reminds me of certain Members back when Roy Moore was the accused.

We shall see.

[goatprairie]

That is what this case will turn on.  The fact that the decedent tried to grab the shotgun could be a mitigating factor, but isn't going to get them off the hook if they were trying to do a "citizens arrest" without a proper predicate.  If they didn't witness this guy doing a crime, they're screwed if I understand this part of GA law.

Arbery had been trespassing on private property. But the McMichael's didn't know that. Even if they had seen him trespassing, would that justify them stopping him and pointing a loaded weapon at him?

[goatprairie]

Reminds me of the Rodney King case. As in that case, you have someone who was caught engaging in if not actual criminal behavior, then very suspicious behavior. The escalation occurred when Arbery started running. If he wasn't doing anything wro-wro-wro-wro-wrong,  why did he run? Then to resist when caught.

In the Rodney King case, nobody talks about the fact that before the incident, King had an arrest record as long as an Ourangatang's arm. Also when he was finally caught, it had been after a 100 mph+ car chase through residential neighborhoods. Also the tape of the beating waa edited an' only showed the end of the fight. Nor does the Propaganda Ministry For the Left-wing Fascist Agenda admit that King continued his criminal activities after he was released from custody. They will never admit that he was nothing more than a career criminal.

 

Except you can't stop a career criminal if you're not a leo and point a loaded weapon at him and you haven't seen him committing a crime.
The cops stopped Rodney King. They were authorized to do so.
The McMichaels had no authority to stop Arbery because they hadn't seen him commit a crime and they were not law officers.

[Cyber Liberty]

Arbery had been trespassing on private property. But the McMichael's didn't know that. Even if they had seen him trespassing, would that justify them stopping him and pointing a loaded weapon at him?

Exactly, this is what the case turns on, and they will probably be found guilty of Murder, short of First Degree.

[Cyber Liberty]

Except you can't stop a career criminal if you're not a leo and point a loaded weapon at him and you haven't seen him committing a crime.
The cops stopped Rodney King. They were authorized to do so.
The McMichaels had no authority to stop Arbery because they hadn't seen him commit a crime and they were not law officers.

Additionally, in the cases of Trayvon Martin and Michael Brown, the decedents were clearly the aggressors in the fatal altercations.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

So you can, like the McMichaels did, see a person running down the road, assume he had just committed a crime, jump out of your vehicle, and point a loaded gun at him or her?
If that's the case, then maybe we can assume any person we see running down the road had just committed a crime, accost him or her and point a loaded gun at him or her.
Well, we can't. The McMichaels had no idea Arbery had committed a crime.
The elder McMichael saw someone he knew from a previous incident and just decided to stop and question him WHILE POINTING A LOADED WEAPON AT HIM!!!
He had absolutely no authority to do so.
Citizens arrests are only allowable when a citizen has seen a crime committed. This was not the case with Arbery. They had no idea what Arbery had been doing. They simply decided to take the law into their hands.

You are speaking 100% hyperbole.

You made the statement he did nothing wrong.

If you cannot support that statement with evidence, just shut up.

[roamer_1]

The elder McMichael saw someone he knew from a previous incident and just decided to stop and question him WHILE POINTING A LOADED WEAPON AT HIM!!!

So what? I have had that done to me a lot. Around here, if you are where you do not belong, and arouse suspicion, the folks that do belong will detain you with some prejudice. That's nothing new, or necessarily nefarious... And if they figger you are packin (which is a likely assumption), you are normally detained with a threat of greater force.

And by the by, if one is in such a situation, you've got to be an idiot to force the issue.

It is commonplace to approach a cabin in full view, hollerin out, and showing yourself unloading your rifle. It's just polite. It's also common for the owner of that cabin to be on the porch with a loaded 12ga pointed right at you till you've said your piece, and he can decide your worth.

And God help you if you approach that cabin (or his land for that matter) in any other way.

So just because you are confronted with a loaded weapon does not immediately mean a dang thing other than a fairly determined resolve to detain you, and that is not necessarily wrong.

[PeteS in CA]

https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Ex-detective-charged-in-death-of-Ahmaud-Arbery-15269309.php

Ex-detective charged in death of Ahmaud Arbery lost power to make arrests after skipping use-of-force training
Michael Brice-Saddler and Cleve R. Wootson Jr., The Washington Post
Published 3:50 am PDT, Thursday, May 14, 2020

The former police detective whose actions in the fatal shooting of Ahmaud Arbery in Georgia were defended as a citizen's arrest was stripped of his law enforcement certification and power to arrest a year before the deadly encounter, according to personnel records acquired by The Washington Post.

Gregory McMichael's certification was suspended in February 2019 after repeated failures to complete required training, according to documents from the Brunswick Judicial Circuit District Attorney's Office, including a warning in 2014 that McMichael had neglected to finish mandatory firearms and use-of-force courses.

"Repeated failures" suggests he also had a problem with people having authority over him.

#######################

WRT "trespassing", my understanding is that under Georgia law, entering property without permission is not criminal trespass unless the one doing so is instructed not to, by the owner directly or by posted sign. Someone could verify or correct this, but I believe the home Arbery entered did not have a "No Trespassing" sign. IF that is correct, then Arbery did not even commit a misdemeanor, trespassing, when he entered that home.

[roamer_1]

WRT "trespassing", my understanding is that under Georgia law, entering property without permission is not criminal trespass unless the one doing so is instructed not to, by the owner directly or by posted sign. Someone could verify or correct this, but I believe the home Arbery entered did not have a "No Trespassing" sign. IF that is correct, then Arbery did not even commit a misdemeanor, trespassing, when he entered that home.

Entering a property may not be, but entering a building?

[PeteS in CA]

Entering a property may not be, but entering a building?

https://law.justia.com/codes/georgia/2010/title-16/chapter-7/article-2/part-1/16-7-21/

2010 Georgia Code
TITLE 16 - CRIMES AND OFFENSES
CHAPTER 7 - DAMAGE TO AND INTRUSION UPON PROPERTY
ARTICLE 2 - CRIMINAL TRESPASS AND DAMAGE TO PROPERTY
PART 1 - GENERAL PROVISIONS
§ 16-7-21 - Criminal trespass
O.C.G.A. 16-7-21 (2010)
16-7-21. Criminal trespass


(a) A person commits the offense of criminal trespass when he or she intentionally damages any property of another without consent of that other person and the damage thereto is $500.00 or less or knowingly and maliciously interferes with the possession or use of the property of another person without consent of that person.

(b) A person commits the offense of criminal trespass when he or she knowingly and without authority:

(1) Enters upon the land or premises of another person or into any part of any vehicle, railroad car, aircraft, or watercraft of another person for an unlawful purpose;

(2) Enters upon the land or premises of another person or into any part of any vehicle, railroad car, aircraft, or watercraft of another person after receiving, prior to such entry, notice from the owner, rightful occupant, or, upon proper identification, an authorized representative of the owner or rightful occupant that such entry is forbidden; or

(3) Remains upon the land or premises of another person or within the vehicle, railroad car, aircraft, or watercraft of another person after receiving notice from the owner, rightful occupant, or, upon proper identification, an authorized representative of the owner or rightful occupant to depart.

[roamer_1]

https://law.justia.com/codes/georgia/2010/title-16/chapter-7/article-2/part-1/16-7-21/

That's nuts.

[verga]

That is what this case will turn on.  The fact that the decedent tried to grab the shotgun could be a mitigating factor, but isn't going to get them off the hook if they were trying to do a "citizens arrest" without a proper predicate.  If they didn't witness this guy doing a crime, they're screwed if I understand this part of GA law.

Colion Noir did a very good video breaking down Georgia law on this. He is a 2A advocate and a lawyer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yr-HMjlr1sU
 

[goatprairie]

You are speaking 100% hyperbole.

You made the statement he did nothing wrong.

If you cannot support that statement with evidence, just shut up.

Just shut up? You made a statement that Arbery couldn't prove he didn't do something?
Really? Can you prove you didn't do something? Can you prove a negative?
But I don't tell you to shut up, do I?

[goatprairie]

So what? I have had that done to me a lot. Around here, if you are where you do not belong, and arouse suspicion, the folks that do belong will detain you with some prejudice. That's nothing new, or necessarily nefarious... And if they figger you are packin (which is a likely assumption), you are normally detained with a threat of greater force.

And by the by, if one is in such a situation, you've got to be an idiot to force the issue.

It is commonplace to approach a cabin in full view, hollerin out, and showing yourself unloading your rifle. It's just polite. It's also common for the owner of that cabin to be on the porch with a loaded 12ga pointed right at you till you've said your piece, and he can decide your worth.

And God help you if you approach that cabin (or his land for that matter) in any other way.

So just because you are confronted with a loaded weapon does not immediately mean a dang thing other than a fairly determined resolve to detain you, and that is not necessarily wrong.

So whenever you see a stranger around your parts on a public road, you drive up to them, stop them, and point a loaded gun at them? Really?

[goatprairie]

https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Ex-detective-charged-in-death-of-Ahmaud-Arbery-15269309.php

Ex-detective charged in death of Ahmaud Arbery lost power to make arrests after skipping use-of-force training
Michael Brice-Saddler and Cleve R. Wootson Jr., The Washington Post
Published 3:50 am PDT, Thursday, May 14, 2020
"Repeated failures" suggests he also had a problem with people having authority over him.

#######################

WRT "trespassing", my understanding is that under Georgia law, entering property without permission is not criminal trespass unless the one doing so is instructed not to, by the owner directly or by posted sign. Someone could verify or correct this, but I believe the home Arbery entered did not have a "No Trespassing" sign. IF that is correct, then Arbery did not even commit a misdemeanor, trespassing, when he entered that home.

Even he was wrongfully/criminally trespassing, the McMichaels had no way of knowing that. In any event, it was not their property, Arbery had not stolen anything or threatened anybody, and the McMichaels had no authority to stop him and point a  loaded gun at him.

[roamer_1]

So whenever you see a stranger around your parts on a public road, you drive up to them, stop them, and point a loaded gun at them? Really?

No, not 'whenever'... But it ain't unheard of.

[goatprairie]

No, not 'whenever'... But it ain't unheard of.

I think you live out west somewhere. The wife and I have been out west quite a bit in the last twenty years or so including some very out of the way areas.
We've never had anybody drive up to us and point a loaded gun at us. But we've never trespassed on somebody's property. Neither was Arbery at the time he was shot.
If that happened, you can be rest assured if they didn't kill us, the authorities would be talking to them, and we'd be pressing charges.

[roamer_1]

I think you live out west somewhere. The wife and I have been out west quite a bit in the last twenty years or so including some very out of the way areas.
We've never had anybody drive up to us and point a loaded gun at us. But we've never trespassed on somebody's property. Neither was Arbery at the time he was shot.
If that happened, you can be rest assured if they didn't kill us, the authorities would be talking to them, and we'd be pressing charges.

I seen a cow was out... And I chased him up a holler. And there I was, ducking into places and back out, Going up this away and that, and back out. looking where she'd gone.Wasn't long before I ran up on a pickup blocking the road with folks and shotguns (one pointed at me), asking my business.

County road, sure enough. For all they knew I was up there robbing folks or casing joints to rob em later. Now, had I no real reason for my suspicious actions, they'd have sent me packing. Had I pulled a weapon in the mean time, I'd have been shot dead as a matter of defense. But I was going no further, under force of arms, until I explained myself.

Now, if I were to say I was looking for someone's property, and was lost, the shotgun would have come down and I would have been given direction and sent on my way... As it was, I told em I had shagged a loose cow up the mountain, and was looking to round it up, and told em which homestead below I figured it was from, and we were all fine then. They helped find it and put it in a corral and since they knew the feller it belonged to, that was my end done. They would take it from there. Wound up with sweet tea and a piece of pie, sitting on that porch, and sent away with thanks.

No fault, no foul. If you don't see the sense in that, I'd just as soon you stay where you are. No offense meant. Folks ten to twenty miles out have to look after their own. There ain't gonna be no sheriff in time for anything but the body bags. What they did  was right by me, and what I did was right by them. That the guns were involved was of little matter.
 

[IsailedawayfromFR]

Just shut up? You made a statement that Arbery couldn't prove he didn't do something?
Really? Can you prove you didn't do something? Can you prove a negative?
But I don't tell you to shut up, do I?

I really have no idea what you are now blabbering about.

You stated yourself unequivocally that the person killed did nothing wrong.

Why is it so difficult for you to produce the evidence that he did nothing wrong?

The burden is on you as you made the statement.

Where is the evidence?

You do not have it, then you really need to just shut up as there is nothing of substance you could say, unless you admit you are empty on the facts side of things.

[verga]

I really have no idea what you are now blabbering about.

You stated yourself unequivocally that the person killed did nothing wrong.

Why is it so difficult for you to produce the evidence that he did nothing wrong?

The burden is on you as you made the statement.

Where is the evidence?

You do not have it, then you really need to just shut up as there is nothing of substance you could say, unless you admit you are empty on the facts side of things.

Actually according tot he rules of debate the burden of proof is on you. You hold the "positive" position, so you need to prove that he did do something wrong.After watching both videos, (The second one is "Claimed " to be him entering a house that is under construction. The owners and construction people stated that NOTHING was taken. So at worst he is guilty of trespassing. And under Georgia law this would be hard to prove since there was not fence or signs up. I am pretty sure thqt trespassing is not a death penalty offense.

[roamer_1]

I am pretty sure thqt trespassing is not a death penalty offense.

Two separate things. What he got dead for is going for the gun.

[Cyber Liberty]

Two separate things. What he got dead for is going for the gun.

Yeah, that was pretty dumb.  What did he think was going to happen when he yanked on that muzzle?

[roamer_1]

Yeah, that was pretty dumb.  What did he think was going to happen when he yanked on that muzzle?

Yeah... Not the best option.

[goatprairie]

I seen a cow was out... And I chased him up a holler. And there I was, ducking into places and back out, Going up this away and that, and back out. looking where she'd gone.Wasn't long before I ran up on a pickup blocking the road with folks and shotguns (one pointed at me), asking my business.

County road, sure enough. For all they knew I was up there robbing folks or casing joints to rob em later. Now, had I no real reason for my suspicious actions, they'd have sent me packing. Had I pulled a weapon in the mean time, I'd have been shot dead as a matter of defense. But I was going no further, under force of arms, until I explained myself.

Now, if I were to say I was looking for someone's property, and was lost, the shotgun would have come down and I would have been given direction and sent on my way... As it was, I told em I had shagged a loose cow up the mountain, and was looking to round it up, and told em which homestead below I figured it was from, and we were all fine then. They helped find it and put it in a corral and since they knew the feller it belonged to, that was my end done. They would take it from there. Wound up with sweet tea and a piece of pie, sitting on that porch, and sent away with thanks.

No fault, no foul. If you don't see the sense in that, I'd just as soon you stay where you are. No offense meant. Folks ten to twenty miles out have to look after their own. There ain't gonna be no sheriff in time for anything but the body bags. What they did  was right by me, and what I did was right by them. That the guns were involved was of little matter.

If I was looking for one of my lost livestock, and I was on a public road, and some armed people, who weren't leos, stopped me with one pointing a gun at me, they would have been visited by the authorities.
Those idiots had absolutely NO RIGHT to accost you on a public road and point a loaded gun at you.