Georgia shooting of Ahmaud Arbery spurs outcry

[Axeslinger]

@sneakypete

Hers the one I was thinking of:

https://www.amazon.com/Deadly-Force-Understanding-Right-Defense/dp/1440240612/ref=nodl_

[sneakypete]

1

What is the basis for this assumption?

@PeteS in CA

The obvious fact they didn't just shoot him and been done with it. You've never been in a gunfight,have you?

2 The McMichaels were illegally assaulting and attempting false arrest. What do you say Arbery should have done, @sneakypete? Surrender to the armed men who had been continually assaulting and threatening him?

Duhhhhh. If he had,he would have been alive today.

3 And you would be guilty of murder, because Arbery was defending himself, legally.

Opinions are like Democrats. Everybody has one.

4 A rational person would not have attempted a false arrest, would not have assaulted Arbery with a vehicle, and would not have threatened him with a gun. In short, a rational person would not have set in motion the train of events that led to Arbery's desperate attempt to escape the McMichaels' continual assaults.

What the HELL do you know about rational people? I think you have been in Ca too long.

5 No, what led to Arbery's death was the McMichaels' continual illegal assaults and illegal attempt at false imprisonment. Had they simply called 9-1-1 and followed Arbery - let the police do their job, professionally - Arbery would be alive. The McMichaels decided to play cop.

"CONTINUED ASSAULTS"?????? WHERE is any evidence he assaulted that punk the first time? If he had been interested in hurting him,he could have just bounced him off his truck.

You really need to get out more.

[Axeslinger]

@sneakypete , you’re arguing the rules of war.   They don’t apply here. 

@PeteS in CA   Is arguing the law of a civilian involved shooting.  They most certainly apply here.

[Axeslinger]

Pete S said:  “ what led to Arbery's death was the McMichaels' continual illegal assaults and illegal attempt at false imprisonment. Had they simply called 9-1-1 and followed Arbery - let the police do their job, professionally - Arbery would be alive. The McMichaels decided to play cop.”

Arberys decision to fight (and not flight) cost him his life.
The McMichaels decision to ILLEGALLY detain Arbery, and the death that resulted from that decision, will cost them their freedom.

[sneakypete]

@

sneakypete[/member] , you’re arguing the rules of war.   They don’t apply here. 

@Axeslinger
wit
ANYTIME someone is pointing a loaded gun at you with the intent to cause you harm or death,the rules of survival are in existence.

@PeteS in CA   Is arguing the law of a civilian involved shooting.  They most certainly apply here.

If you say so. Shot dead is shot dead to me.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

Looks to me that this is another Michael Brown or Trayvon Martin thing.  He was not hunted down.  Appears he was suspected of burglary by concerned neighbors and reacted violently when confronted.

Refusing to let the media define the Ahmaud Arbery narrative



https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2020/05/refusing_to_let_the_media_define_the_ahmaud_arbery_narrative.html

[sneakypete]

@sneakypete

Re the if they wanted him dead:    No, that would’ve made them guilty if premeditated murder.  I don’t believe a smart prosecutor will go for that.

What about a PC  prosecutor,banking minority votes for an upcoming election?

But, barring something unknown at this time, they will almost certainly be found guilty of at least manslaughter and probably murder, just not capital murder.  They didn’t go there with the intention of shooting anyone, they brought the gun because they thought they were confronting a criminal.

I don't like it,but agree.

Won’t matter. Legally they were wholly wrong.

And morally,100 percent right. You know what they call someone who allows an attacker to take their gun from them?

The word you are lookin for is "dead".

By any chance Pete, do you have or have you ever had a concealed carry permit?

 

 Yes,the local sheriff called me at home the day it was made legal,and insisted I be standing in his office at 9 AM the next morning because he was going to personally process all my paperwork and make sure it was sent off that day.

He also told his secretary to go ahead and sign off on the purchase of any weapon I wanted to buy,including machine guns,without bothering to ask him.

   

Because what these two guys did violates pretty much EVERYTHING you are taught when obtaining a Carry permit.

So what? Most of the people who teach those courses are asshats that have never been in a gunfight.

Know what THE number 1 rule is in a gun fight?

It's "be the one that survives it".

Massad Ayoob has written a number of fabulous books on the legalities of armed confrontations by civilians.  I’ll see if I can find a title if you’re interested. 

I know who Aboob is. I also know he has never been in a gunfight.

[PeteS in CA]

Looks to me that this is another Michael Brown or Trayvon Martin thing.  He was not hunted down.  Appears he was suspected of burglary by concerned neighbors and reacted violently when confronted.

Refusing to let the media define the Ahmaud Arbery narrative
...

Under GA law, a citizens arrest is only legal if the person doing it saw the crime committed or had immediate knowledge of it. Therefore the McMichaels were violating the law when they attempted to detain Arbery (false imprisonment) and threatened Arbery with deadly force. The McMichaels' multiple assaults forced on Arbery a choice between defending himself, which would have been entirely legal, or surrendering to people who had been illegally and irrationally hounding him.

Those are the simple facts. The McMichaels acted illegally from the moment they acted beyond following Arbery and calling 9-1-1.

[Cyber Liberty]

Under GA law, a citizens arrest is only legal if the person doing it saw the crime committed or had immediate knowledge of it. Therefore the McMichaels were violating the law when they attempted to detain Arbery (false imprisonment) and threatened Arbery with deadly force. The McMichaels' multiple assaults forced on Arbery a choice between defending himself, which would have been entirely legal, or surrendering to people who had been illegally and irrationally hounding him.

Those are the simple facts. The McMichaels acted illegally from the moment they acted beyond following Arbery and calling 9-1-1.

I still don't know enough about the case to leap to either "side." 

[skeeter]

I still don't know enough about the case to leap to either "side."

That should be everyone's opinion. When all is said and done I suspect that the truth lies somewhere between a lynching and a legitimate neighborhood watch.

[catfish1957]

Looks to me that this is another Michael Brown or Trayvon Martin thing.  He was not hunted down.  Appears he was suspected of burglary by concerned neighbors and reacted violently when confronted.

There are a few differences, especially in the Michael Brown deal.  The LEO officer was arresting him after a robbery, and Brown tried to commandere this officer's gun, and lunged at the officer.  LEO was fully and 100% justifiable in killing this POS.  Sadly, that LEO's life was ruined afterwards.

Travon Martin was shot and killed after attacking Zimmerman, in a probable robbery.  Zimmerman was in the right for defending himself.

The Arbery case does  not meet either  muster.  Arbery was apparently attacked by a couple of vigalantes who went too far.  Was Arbery a robber and a lowlife?  I am guessing yeah.  But that is not how we administer justice in this country.

Still, we need to get 100% of the facts before passing full judgement.

[verga]

I still want to know the political affiliation of the suspects.

[catfish1957]

I still want to know the political affiliation of the suspects.

Not sure, but sure can discern a color on their neck....   

[PeteS in CA]

I still want to know the political affiliation of the suspects.

Obviously of the Moronic Party.

[Cyber Liberty]

What do the all three of the cases mentioned so far have in common (Martin, Brown and Arbery)?

In all three cases, the decedents became that way after making plays for the shooters' guns.

Not a dispositive point in any case.  Just a non-germane observation.

[goatprairie]

What do the all three of the cases mentioned so far have in common (Martin, Brown and Arbery)?

In all three cases, the decedents became that way after making plays for the shooters' guns.

Not a dispositive point in any case.  Just a non-germane observation.

Yeah, but the Arbery case is not the same as the other two. Arbery was accosted by the McMichaels who had no idea if he had committed a crime. They pointed a loaded weapon at him. They were not duly authorized law officers.
In the other cases the perps attacked the persons involved (Zimmerman, Wilson) who were not threatening the perps who got themselves shot.
In Arbery's case, he was running down the street when some people jumped out of car and pointed a gun at him. He had done nothing wrong.
I can't believe how many people twist themselves into knots trying portray the McMichaels as innocent motorists simply going down the street when they were attacked by Arbery.
The facts are completely opposite. They stopped a person who was running down the street, accosted him, and pointed a loaded weapon at him.
What difference does it make whether he grabbed for the gun or tried to run away? He had no idea what the two dopes were going to do. He thought grabbing for the gun was better than trying to outrun bullets.
In short, Arbery is innocent. The McMichaels are guilty of at least manslaughter. Period.

[Cyber Liberty]

Yeah, but the Arbery case is not the same as the other two. Arbery was accosted by the McMichaels who had no idea if he had committed a crime. They pointed a loaded weapon at him. They were not duly authorized law officers.
In the other cases the perps attacked the persons involved (Zimmerman, Wilson) who were not threatening the perps who got themselves shot.
In Arbery's case, he was running down the street when some people jumped out of car and pointed a gun at him. He had done nothing wrong.
I can't believe how many people twist themselves into knots trying portray the McMichaels as innocent motorists simply going down the street when they were attacked by Arbery.
The facts are completely opposite. They stopped a person who was running down the street, accosted him, and pointed a loaded weapon at him.
What difference does it make whether he grabbed for the gun or tried to run away? He had no idea what the two dopes were going to do. He thought grabbing for the gun was better than trying to outrun bullets.
In short, Arbery is innocent. The McMichaels are guilty of at least manslaughter. Period.

Speaking for myself, I prefer to wait until I'm comfortable that I saw all the facts.   

[goatprairie]

Speaking for myself, I prefer to wait until I'm comfortable that I saw all the facts.   

Like what? Was Arbery stalking the McMichaels? No. They were stalking him.
Was Arbery committing a crime or had recently committed one? No.
Was Arbery legally running down the road when the McMichaels stopped him and pointed loaded guns at him?
Yes.
Were the McMichaels duly authorized police officers legally questioning a possible perp? No, they had no legal authority to hold a gun on someone simply running down the street.
If you lunge at someone unlawfully holding a gun on you, do you deserve to be shot?
I don't think so.

[Cyber Liberty]

Like what? Was Arbery stalking the McMichaels? No. They were stalking him.
Was Arbery committing a crime or had recently committed one? No.
Was Arbery legally running down the road when the McMichaels stopped him and pointed loaded guns at him?
Yes.
Were the McMichaels duly authorized police officers legally questioning a possible perp? No, they had no legal authority to hold a gun on someone simply running down the street.
If you lunge at someone unlawfully holding a gun on you, do you deserve to be shot?
I don't think so.

Well, did you obviously make up your mind before ALL the facts are in?  Yes.   In the words of Bartleby:  "I would prefer not to."

[goatprairie]

Well, did you obviously make up your mind before ALL the facts are in?  Yes.   In the words of Bartleby:  "I would prefer not to."

Sure, I'll wait until all the facts are in. If I'm wrong, I'll admit it. But I don't think I'll be wrong.
When I first heard the official stories about Trayvon Martin and Michael Brown, I put two and two together and doubted the official version.
The problem is due the  past record of the media ignoring the staggering black crime rate and the overwhelming attacks by blacks on whites, many whites simply can't believe that a white or whites can be the perp(s) and guilty of a crime involving a black person.
Reading comments on other conservative forums by posters who actually believe Arbery was the aggressor because he charged the McMichaels leaves me stunned.
If it were a white man running down the road accosted by two armed black persons, you know what their reaction would be then.
"he was trying to protect himself from getting shot"
"the blacks had no right to accost him and point a loaded weapon at him"
"the blacks are guilty of first degree murder"
Those would be the comments I'd be reading if Arbery were white and the McMichaels were black.
Whites have to accept that other white people can screw up and commit crimes.
I don't think it's first degree murder, but the whole thing could have been avoided if the McMichaels had simply called the police instead of taking the law into their own hands.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

Yeah, but the Arbery case is not the same as the other two. Arbery was accosted by the McMichaels who had no idea if he had committed a crime. They pointed a loaded weapon at him. They were not duly authorized law officers.
In the other cases the perps attacked the persons involved (Zimmerman, Wilson) who were not threatening the perps who got themselves shot.
In Arbery's case, he was running down the street when some people jumped out of car and pointed a gun at him. He had done nothing wrong.
I can't believe how many people twist themselves into knots trying portray the McMichaels as innocent motorists simply going down the street when they were attacked by Arbery.
The facts are completely opposite. They stopped a person who was running down the street, accosted him, and pointed a loaded weapon at him.
What difference does it make whether he grabbed for the gun or tried to run away? He had no idea what the two dopes were going to do. He thought grabbing for the gun was better than trying to outrun bullets.
In short, Arbery is innocent. The McMichaels are guilty of at least manslaughter. Period.

Pretty bold statement.

What knowledge do you possess which prompts you to make such a statement?

[catfish1957]

Pretty bold statement.

What knowledge do you possess which prompts you to make such a statement?

I do believe he was doing something wrong, but this still doesn't justify two armed vigalantes gunning him down.  Not the way we administer justice in this country.  These guys have no business being considered remotely in the same category as Zimmerman or Wilson

[Cyber Liberty]

Pretty bold statement.

What knowledge do you possess which prompts you to make such a statement?

I gave up asking.  Goat just "knows."  It reminds me of certain Members back when Roy Moore was the accused.

[Cyber Liberty]

I do believe he was doing something wrong, but this still doesn't justify two armed vigalantes gunning him down.  Not the way we administer justice in this country.  These guys have no business being considered remotely in the same category as Zimmerman or Wilson

That is what this case will turn on.  The fact that the decedent tried to grab the shotgun could be a mitigating factor, but isn't going to get them off the hook if they were trying to do a "citizens arrest" without a proper predicate.  If they didn't witness this guy doing a crime, they're screwed if I understand this part of GA law.

[mortarman]

Reminds me of the Rodney King case. As in that case, you have someone who was caught engaging in if not actual criminal behavior, then very suspicious behavior. The escalation occurred when Arbery started running. If he wasn't doing anything wro-wro-wro-wro-wrong,  why did he run? Then to resist when caught.

In the Rodney King case, nobody talks about the fact that before the incident, King had an arrest record as long as an Ourangatang's arm. Also when he was finally caught, it had been after a 100 mph+ car chase through residential neighborhoods. Also the tape of the beating waa edited an' only showed the end of the fight. Nor does the Propaganda Ministry For the Left-wing Fascist Agenda admit that King continued his criminal activities after he was released from custody. They will never admit that he was nothing more than a career criminal.