Author Topic: Aircraft carrier captain removed from duty after pleading for help with coronavirus outbreak  (Read 1642 times)

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Offline bigheadfred

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Go through channels?  His whole crew could have been dead by the time he got through "channels" and anyone who has been in the  military knows it. 9999hair out0000

Do you really think he needed to go public? I don't.
She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Online Smokin Joe

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Do you really think he needed to go public? I don't.
It was my understanding that someone leaked the letter to the press, not that the Captain had sent it. If that is the case, and the letter was disclosed to people it was not addressed to, then the person(s) who leaked it should be before the mast, because they are the danger to national security.
While going around parts of the chain of command are viewed badly, if the needed action is being stymied by one person in that chain, however onerous to the fabric of the command structure, getting the job done is important.

In the meantime, if, as I am under the impression, the leaker is still out there, then there is a mole in the communications structure disclosing what may be sensitive information about the ability of US forces to retain readiness in the face of an introduced pathogen, something that should have been kept within the service and not dumped to the 4th column/5th estate.
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Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline mountaineer

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Twitter thread introduced by Brit Hume thusly:
Brit Hume   @brithume
12m
Thoughtful thread on the Crozier firing. Warning to the Trump-obsessed. It’s not about him.
Quote
Bryan McGrath  @ConsWahoo

A thread on the firing of the CO of USS THEODORE ROOSEVELT (CVN 71).  I'm not sure any reader is going to be perfectly satisfied by what I write, but that's the way the ball bounces. Let's start with what we know. An sophisticated, experienced, Naval Officer in command of a nuclear powered aircraft carrier drafted a well-written four page letter laying out his assessment of the emergency facing his crew and desired actions of his chain of command to fix them. We also know that this commanding officer was removed from command on the orders of the acting Secretary of the Navy as a result of the letter having found its way to the open press.

We have heard from the @SECNAV  https://navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=112537 , but we have not heard from the CO (CAPT Crozier). So now, let's move to things we assert, but which we don't know. First, I believe CAPT Crozier knew when he hit send on the email containing this letter that it could very well result in his being removed from command. Anyone who commands a Navy ship understands that it is not a birthright, and if you ask most who have (I'm one), they'll tell you that they had more than one conversation with themself in which they acknowledged that there were circumstances in which you would take the command at sea pin and put it on your boss's desk and say "I'm out". I think Crozier reached this point. The interesting question to me is why?

Time and thorough investigations will tell, but the most logical explanation is that he HAD done all these things but that the Chain of Command wasn't acting. I cannot judge this, but @SECNAV  statement above indicates that prior to the letter being released, he had gotten assurances from the very top that his needs would be met. But I am not certain of the chronology. But what I AM certain of is that the manner in which the letter was drafted and circulated (on unclasssified networks) without handling markings (at least For Officieal Use Only) virtually assured that it would be leaked.

 I am not saying Crozier leaked it. I'm saying the way he wrote and distributed it ensured its wide distribution. When this matter is thoroughly investigated, it will be useful to understand the degree to which Crozier was or wasn't being well served by the Chain of Command.

 Bottom line for me:  Crozier did what he thought was right for the safety and health of his crew, he determined that losing command was worth the risk of saving lives, and he let it ride. Let us now turn to the institutional Navy. A word of insight--I consult to the Navy. What I am writing here is what I think, and if they asked me, which no one has, would have been what I told them. So, the letter hits the press. @SECNAV  -- and presumably others -- are caught by surprise. It instantly becomes a global news story.

They are trying to manage a large and global organization's response to a pandemic. While CAPT Crozier has unimpeachable and unmatched "on scene" insight, he has little or no understanding of the scope and totality of the problem facing Navy leadership. He is doing his job as he sees fit.  And so was @secnav

  This is the most important point I can get across here. Both Crozier and Modly have done "a" right thing here. I'm not saying there was only one course of action for either of them. I'm saying that among the right answers, each chose one.

Crozier wrote his letter knowing it would likely mean his firing. Modly fired him likely knowing it would be an unpopular decision. Both men were right. Both men did their jobs. The Navy's institutional reaction to Crozier and his crew's plight was NOT working fast enough on scene. Given that Crozier did not know what was headed his way or what the breadth of the response was going to be, Modly's removal of him from this job was warranted. The country simply cannot have a Navy in which its commanders are freely communicating their concerns open source, NO MATTER HOW RIGHT CROZIER WAS IN THIS PARTICULAR CIRCUMSTANCE. Crozier's action got the attention he sought, good things are happening, and the crew is being taken care of. It cost him his command, but as I said, I suspect he knew it would. I honor his sacrifice, and hope that the Navy continues to pick men and women for command who UNDER EXTRAORDINARY CIRCUMSTANCES do what is necessary to ensure the safety and readiness of their crew and their ship.

But the NORM must continue to be using the chain of command and appropriate networks and transmission paths. The NORM must be the chain of command. That NORM must be protected institutionally by those entrusted with its upkeep...men like @SECNAV

To conclude--I hope that in his place, I would have done what Crozier did. Had I, I would have known that it would be the end of that command. And if I were in Modly's place, I would likely have done exactly what he did. Command is a unique position in the Navy, and an enormous amount of trust is placed in the CO. Crozier appears to have violated that trust. The optics and the narrative are terrible for the Navy right now, and it occurs to me that there were other "right" paths Modly could have taken.  But I do not fault him for the decision he made. Fin.

https://twitter.com/ConsWahoo/status/1246079067637587968
« Last Edit: April 04, 2020, 12:02:25 am by mountaineer »
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Online Smokin Joe

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Twitter thread introduced by Brit Hume thusly:
Brit Hume   @brithume
12m
Thoughtful thread on the Crozier firing. Warning to the Trump-obsessed. It’s not about him.

https://twitter.com/ConsWahoo/status/1246079067637587968
That thread is thoughtful.
If you are in command of a group of people, whether in the service, in industry, or as a first responder, you are middle management.
There are two sides to that job.

You look out for the people who hired you, their interests, the company's interests and viability and success...

which means you look out for the people you supervise, their interests, their needs, their safety. They make you successful, in the end, through your ability to garner their loyalty and inspire them to do and do well what the higher-ups want done.

Sometimes that places you right between the rubber and the road.
You know going in that you will either get a bonus/raise or get canned.
I'm one for three in that department, apparently failing to sell the people above me on better ideas, or eliminated so they could take credit (in one case, I'm pretty sure).
Often, doing right by both groups is doing the exact same thing, even when it is not recognized by all involved.
It is unfortunate, but everyone did what they had to do.

Now, still, find who leaked the letter and keel haul them.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline dancer

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If NCIS does a thorough investigation and finds out the skipper did indeed leak the letter...THEN fire him.  But not before the investigation is done.

For all we know someone in the Pentagon or over at the Navy Yard with an axe to grind on the President leaked the letter.  Since it went to the SF Chronicle for all we know Pelosi or DiFi leaked it.

Regardless this has a half ass poorly done relief for a cause we don't know everything about yet.

And a naval officers career is ruined because of it.
He did it to himself.  He cc'd to 20 people other than his higher ups, and he sent the email over an insecure network.   That is just plain stupid. 
« Last Edit: April 04, 2020, 03:37:12 am by dancer »

Offline Chosen Daughter

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Go through channels?  His whole crew could have been dead by the time he got through "channels" and anyone who has been in the  military knows it. 9999hair out0000

Knowing how fast this virus spreads and the fact that they already had 100 cases I think the Commander did what he had to.  For whatever reason, and hopefully we will find out why they didn't receive the help they needed.
AG William Barr: "I'm recused from that matter because one of the law firms that represented Epstein long ago was a firm that I subsequently joined for a period of time."

Alexander Acosta Labor Secretary resigned under pressure concerning his "sweetheart deal" with Jeffrey Epstein.  He was under consideration for AG after Sessions was removed, but was forced to resign instead.

Offline bigheadfred

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@mountaineer  @Smokin Joe

This, to start, is anecdotal. I have a nephew who served in the Navy as a career move. He got to the point that he couldn't stand the BS and was given an honorable after 16 years even though he had signed on for 20.

@rangerrebew  has posted numerous articles pertaining to the lack of "preparedness" of our Navy, etc. Especially, well, in two places. The Gulf of Hormuz and the South China Sea.

There IS a whole lot of BS going on in our armed services.

The gist is not how, diplomatically, strategically, or economically we are gearing to meet these threats. As in an intellectual thought process. It is a goddammed game of new supertoys. You don't have dedicated people. You have dedicated contracts.

I will retract my previous posts partially.

If our military is so infiltrated then, yeah, let us start there.

If our political system is so infiltrated then, yeah, let us start there.

If our fourth column is so infiltrated then yeah, let us start there.

If our educational system is so infiltrated then yeah, let us start there.

1
2
3
4
5: column

She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Online Smokin Joe

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From the age of ironclads to the battleship navies to carriers and beyond, adapting to change comes at the expense of the latest crop of young men and the antiquated tactics and materiel from the last war.

Future war will have elwments in it that could be best described as science fiction, but it ever has been that way, and it won't start that way, if history is any guide.
What would have William the Conqueror have thought of canned rations?
What would Napoleon have thought of Steam engines and railroads?
Or Lord Admiral Nelson have thought of the Ironclad?
Robert E. Lee of the tank?
Or Jellicoe of the aircraft carrier?
Or Alfred Nobel of nuclear weapons, ICBMs, "Rods from God"?
What's next?
If our command staff can't envision it, they won't have tactics to fight it, much less fight with it.
(WWI should have taught that lesson, written in rivers of blood shed by Maxims.)

AI aerial and ground drones giving mechanized infantry in power suits close air support?
Caseless, autoranging, man portable, miniartillery using rail gun principles to fire mini-artillery or kinetic rounds directly at enemy combatants?

Flanking unmanned surface, aerial, and submarine attack/defense drone screens for amphibious assault vessels?

Think ahead. Everything we have is so last war...

But remember, even Caesar knew an army marches on its belly, so logistics and resupply, spares, mechanics (self-repairing?), will remain critical.

Every aspect must be though through.

For want of a nail, the shoe was lost,
For want of a shoe, the horse was lost,
For want of a horse, the battle was lost...


Ever applies. It's the little sh*t that gets you.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline LilLamb

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The fact that he sent it on an unclassified network is enough for him to be fired as far as I’m concerned.
"When you can't make them see the light, make them feel the heat."  Ronald Reagan

Offline bigheadfred

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The fact that he sent it on an unclassified network is enough for him to be fired as far as I’m concerned.

 :thumbsup:
She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Online Smokin Joe

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The fact that he sent it on an unclassified network is enough for him to be fired as far as I’m concerned.
Yep. That should not have happened.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline bigheadfred

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Perhaps of interest. @Smokin Joe

There is a Youtube channel. If you have the interest or the time. Historical docs.

Kings and Generals.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMmaBzfCCwZ2KqaBJjkj0fw
She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Offline Absalom

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A reflection on an imaginary day in the near future!
Capt. Crozier commands Carrier TR in the South China Sea.
Crew illness has infected and quarantined 27% of his crew.
He sends an urgent e-mail, about his situation, requesting help and copying dozens.
His e-mail is intercepted by the Chinese Admiralty in Beijing who alert their warships
sending the following to their fleet: "Carrier TR is at latitude/longitude of..............
Ship's crew is incapacitated. Immediately engage and sink this enemy warship."
Back to the present!!!
How many grasp the utter recklessness of what Crozier did?????????????????????

« Last Edit: April 04, 2020, 07:56:58 pm by Absalom »

Offline bigheadfred

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@Smokin Joe @LilLamb

That is why I will partially retract my initial posts. If this man. Of the ability to command the vessel he did, had to put out a hue and cry, then, by G-D, we should hear him.

If he did it as an enemy within the gates then kill him now.
She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Offline bigheadfred

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A reflection on an imaginary day in the near future!
Capt. Crozier commands Carrier TR in the South China Sea.
Crew illness has infected and quarantined 27% of his crew.
He sends an urgent e-mail, about his situation, requesting help and copying dozens.
His e-mail is intercepted by the Chinese Admiralty in Beijing who alert their warships
sending the following to their fleet: "Carrier TR is at latitude/longitude of..............
Ship's crew is incapacitated. Immediately engage and sink this enemy warship."
Back to the present!!!
How many grasp the utter recklessness of what Crozier Did?????????????????????

LOL



She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Offline txradioguy

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He did it to himself.  He cc'd to 20 people other than his higher ups, and he sent the email over an insecure network.   That is just plain stupid.

No such thing as an “unsecure network” in the military. Even NIPRNET has layers of security beyond a normal connection.

He’s not the first one to CC many people on an email like that. There’s many reasons you do that. Most are for CYA and keeping your chain of command in the loop of what you’re doing.

Looking out for those you lead and doing everything possible to keep them safe and ready to fight is never stupid or the wrong decision. Even if it means putting your rank at risk.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline bigheadfred

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She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Offline bigheadfred

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hahaha

lyrics (partial)

Greater than to face it, give me your money
Make my life sunny for a day
Road that leads to nowhere, please, stop your crying
I ain't fit for dying this way

Go steal another with your eye
Go try some other heartless lie

Now I have hope of speaking, bring back the moon
Don't play your silly games with me
Oh, what a waste of daydream, what is your need?
I'm gonna bleed until you pay

You've lost all sign of your direction
You're only looking for the next one
The next one to kill

Ashes of destruction spread out so far
Blackened nurses crying over me
See a one-time city, now just a scar
Tears of the flower man fill the sea...

LOL
She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Offline bigheadfred

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We are we.

All it takes is the loving to care.

And a plan to kill everyone you meet.

LOL
She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Offline bigheadfred

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comon

This is the new americia (yeah, americia). Shoot first and shoot again when a ? is raised.

All you stupid people lapping on the gravy train denying the hot poker being shoved up your ass.

9/11? SPIT

You all dint like that hot poker until they told you whose fault it was.

Effing look at you now.

SPIT.



She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Online Smokin Joe

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No such thing as an “unsecure network” in the military. Even NIPRNET has layers of security beyond a normal connection.

He’s not the first one to CC many people on an email like that. There’s many reasons you do that. Most are for CYA and keeping your chain of command in the loop of what you’re doing.

Looking out for those you lead and doing everything possible to keep them safe and ready to fight is never stupid or the wrong decision. Even if it means putting your rank at risk.
Well, that network is "unsecure"--there's a leak.

Funny how many leaks there have been in this presidency, all of which can be used to reflect badly on him in the media.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline jafo2010

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It does not matter where the leak came from.  The Captain is 100% responsible, whether he leaked it or not.  He violated strict military protocol, bypassing the person he reported to and communicating to the higher ups.  He knew when he did it that it was the Kiss of Death and would result in the end of his career.

The US Navy does not need people like this in key positions responsible for a fleet aircraft carrier.

He will be lucky not to get court marshalled.


Online Smokin Joe

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It does not matter where the leak came from.  The Captain is 100% responsible, whether he leaked it or not.  He violated strict military protocol, bypassing the person he reported to and communicating to the higher ups.  He knew when he did it that it was the Kiss of Death and would result in the end of his career.

The US Navy does not need people like this in key positions responsible for a fleet aircraft carrier.

He will be lucky not to get court marshalled.
Sure, it matters. If they leaked once, they'll leak again, maybe something even more critical. Plug the leak.

Yeah, the Captain is done, anyway.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Axeslinger

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He has been removed from a command.  His career is over.   He knew that the moment he hit “send”.  He will be given the choice of retire w full bennies or a court martial.  And for his family’s sake he will walk.
"The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first." - Thomas Jefferson

rangerrebew

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A Navy Captain’s Brave Fight Against Coronavirus

There’s no social distancing on an aircraft carrier, so an emergency stop was the right call.
By James Stavridis
April 1, 2020, 12:24 PM EDT Updated on April 3, 2020, 11:53 AM EDT
Cramped quarters.
 

I have been a ship captain, a commodore in charge of a group of destroyers, and an admiral in command of a carrier strike group with a nuclear aircraft carrier, the USS Enterprise. In the course of my career, I made many hard choices at sea in both peace and combat — but I never faced the kind of hard choice that the captain of the carrier USS Theodore Roosevelt, Brett Crozier, just had to make.

Faced with the coronavirus sweeping through his 5,000-sailor crew, he reached out to his chain of command and requested permission to abort his assigned mission patrolling the Pacific and South China Sea, and come to all stop at Guam to disinfect his ship and save his crew from unnecessary medical risks. The Navy has now relieved him of command of the carrier. How should we evaluate his actions in the face of an invisible but deadly foe?

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-04-01/an-aircraft-carrier-is-no-place-to-fight-coronavirus