Author Topic: Tampa megachurch pastor arrested after leading packed services despite 'safer-at-home' orders  (Read 2153 times)

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Online Elderberry

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FOX 13 News 3/30/2020

Tampa megachurch pastor arrested after leading packed services despite 'safer-at-home' orders

The pastor of a Tampa megachurch is facing charges after refusing to close its doors despite a "safer at home" order in effect in Hillsborough County, meant to stop the spread of COVID-19. The sheriff says up to 500 people were in attendance at Pastor Rodney Howard-Browne's Sunday services.

Sheriff Chad Chronister and State Attorney Andrew Warren on Monday announced that an arrest warrant had been issued for Pastor Howard-Browne. He faces misdemeanor charges of unlawful assembly and violation of public health emergency order.

The River at Tampa Bay Church held two services Sunday, Chronister said, and even offered bus transportation for those services. The chuch's livestream showed a packed crowd cheering and applauding.

"They have access to technology allowing them to livestream their services over the internet and broadcast to their 400 members from the safety of their own homes, but instead they chose to gather at church," Chronister said during a press conference.

More: https://www.fox13news.com/news/tampa-megachurch-pastor-arrested-after-leading-packed-services-despite-safer-at-home-orders

Online catfish1957

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Hate to see a pastor get arrested for religious assembly, but one would hope some common sense would enter the equation.
I display the Confederate Battle Flag in honor of my great great great grandfathers who spilled blood at Wilson's Creek and Shiloh.  5 others served in the WBTS with honor too.

Offline PeteS in CA

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Hate to see a pastor get arrested for religious assembly, but one would hope some common sense would enter the equation.

Exactly. This is a bundle of things that should not happen. The SiP order should have been voluntary for churches and churches should have the sense sense to suspend services. My county did a SiP order about a week before Newsom made it statewide. All the "mega-churches" I'm aware of in Silicon Valley went to online live-streaming.
If, as anti-Covid-vaxxers claim, https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2021/robert-f-kennedy-jr-said-the-covid-19-vaccine-is-the-deadliest-vaccine-ever-made-thats-not-true/ , https://gospelnewsnetwork.org/2021/11/23/covid-shots-are-the-deadliest-vaccines-in-medical-history/ , The Vaccine is deadly, where in the US have Pfizer and Moderna hidden the millions of bodies of those who died of "vaccine injury"? Is reality a Big Pharma Shill?

Millions now living should have died. Anti-Covid-Vaxxer ghouls hardest hit.

Offline Polly Ticks

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Apparently freedom of religion and freedom of assembly are subject to the approval of the government.  Who knew.
Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good, too. -Yogi Berra

Offline musiclady

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Hate to see a pastor get arrested for religious assembly, but one would hope some common sense would enter the equation.

Every pastor with common sense has gone to online services.

The Church is the Church whether it assembles for worship or worship and prays and sings in safety.

In Ohio, there has been a great effort to preserve freedom of religion while asking for common sense and loving, life-saving behavior toward your congregation.

In South Korea, a whole slew of victims were from one large church.  This pastor, were he informed and caring, would never have continued to have services.  He is a shepherd who is not taking care of his sheep.

I hope and pray that his massive congregation stays well, but judging from other cases, they will not.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline sneakypete

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Tampa megachurch pastor arrested after leading packed services despite 'safer-at-home' orders

In my NSHO,that is both immoral and illegal.

What RIGHT does he have to tell free citizens who they CAN associate with and WHERE and WHEN they can do this?

The Governor and the police chief are both violating the CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT of those free people to both associate with who they want to associate with,as well as to practice their religion.

He could POSSIBLY prevent them from taking minor children to the services for health reasons since they are minors,but not the adults.

This ain't rocket science,folks!
« Last Edit: March 31, 2020, 03:26:11 pm by sneakypete »
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline sneakypete

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Every pastor with common sense has gone to online services.

The Church is the Church whether it assembles for worship or worship and prays and sings in safety.

Neither you,a rabid cult member,or me,who can safely be said to be "not very religious" have the RIGHT to determine how other adults get to practice their religion as long as no actual crimes are being committed.

After all,it ain't like they are sacrificing virgins.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2020, 11:24:57 pm by Cyber Liberty »
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline sneakypete

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Hate to see a pastor get arrested for religious assembly, but one would hope some common sense would enter the equation.

@catfish1957

Common sense and religion are not,and will never be,a happy marriage.
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline sneakypete

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Apparently freedom of religion and freedom of assembly are subject to the approval of the government.  Who knew.

@Polly Ticks

Glad to see someone else is surprised.

Thanks! It was starting to get lonely on this board.
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline Polly Ticks

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Glad to see someone else is surprised.

Thanks! It was starting to get lonely on this board.

I have no problem with voluntary social distancing.  My own church moved to online services and I'm happily attending from my sofa.  Having said that, I have a HUGE problem with the government strong-arming churches and businesses to close down and arresting people for exercising their constitutionally guaranteed rights, no matter how foolish I may think they are for doing so.  They should be free to make their own choices just as I should be.
Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good, too. -Yogi Berra

Offline truth_seeker

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The point is to prevent the assembly, not to prevent religious exercise.

The purpose of preventing the meeting/contact, is to protect everybody from unwanted spreading of the silent virus.

In my opinion that is pro-life more so than a preacher who would encourage risks to other peoples' lives.

The science of pulic health; preventing the spread of contageous diseases instead of individual opinions on such matters.
"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Offline musiclady

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I have no problem with voluntary social distancing.  My own church moved to online services and I'm happily attending from my sofa.  Having said that, I have a HUGE problem with the government strong-arming churches and businesses to close down and arresting people for exercising their constitutionally guaranteed rights, no matter how foolish I may think they are for doing so.  They should be free to make their own choices just as I should be.

I understand your perspective and have problems with the arrest.

However, there has been no infringement on the Constitutional right to worship anywhere.  The vast majority of us continue to worship freely and even more out in the open than previously, since we are participating in online worship.

As for the right to assemble, the line is fuzzier.  I agree that the arrest is extreme, but is one Constitutionally guaranteed the right to have 2,000 people in the same space during a health emergency where assembling threatens the lives of everyone with whom those 2000 have contact?

I'm not so sure.

@Polly Ticks
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline Polly Ticks

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I understand your perspective and have problems with the arrest.

However, there has been no infringement on the Constitutional right to worship anywhere.  The vast majority of us continue to worship freely and even more out in the open than previously, since we are participating in online worship.

I understand your perspective and desire to be safe, as well, but there IS an infringement when the government tells me I am not allowed to gather in my church building.  I have no plans to do so, because I have some higher risks myself and also have responsibility for my 80-year-old parents who are in rather precarious health. However, that needs to be my choice, not a mandate from Big Brother.


As for the right to assemble, the line is fuzzier.  I agree that the arrest is extreme, but is one Constitutionally guaranteed the right to have 2,000 people in the same space during a health emergency where assembling threatens the lives of everyone with whom those 2000 have contact?

Yes, one is guaranteed that right. 

Quote
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

There is no clause in there abrogating that right in the event of zombies, an alien invasion, or a particularly nasty virus.  The whole idea is that I have the freedom to choose how to behave, understanding that the consequences of my actions cannot be avoided.  If I (or anyone else) am worried about catching a virus, then I am free to stay at home and away from everyone who may possibly be a carrier.  I have the rights, and I am free to exercise them or not.

Instead, the government - as governments are wont to do - has inserted itself and mandated what I can and cannot do and now Governor Andy has a snitch line my neighbors can call if they're worried that my kids are playing basketball with someone else's kids.  (They're not, by the way, but the point remains.  Big Brother is watching.)

Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good, too. -Yogi Berra

Offline Idiot

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I have mixed emotions about this.  On the one hand the church can meet online and not risk the congregation's health, but on the other hand I hate to see the government have this much power.  If the government does it once, it will open the floodgates for future problems.

Offline musiclady

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I understand your perspective and desire to be safe, as well, but there IS an infringement when the government tells me I am not allowed to gather in my church building.  I have no plans to do so, because I have some higher risks myself and also have responsibility for my 80-year-old parents who are in rather precarious health. However, that needs to be my choice, not a mandate from Big Brother.


Yes, one is guaranteed that right. 


There is no clause in there abrogating that right in the event of zombies, an alien invasion, or a particularly nasty virus.  The whole idea is that I have the freedom to choose how to behave, understanding that the consequences of my actions cannot be avoided.  If I (or anyone else) am worried about catching a virus, then I am free to stay at home and away from everyone who may possibly be a carrier.  I have the rights, and I am free to exercise them or not.

Instead, the government - as governments are wont to do - has inserted itself and mandated what I can and cannot do and now Governor Andy has a snitch line my neighbors can call if they're worried that my kids are playing basketball with someone else's kids.  (They're not, by the way, but the point remains.  Big Brother is watching.)

All good points, but where I still believe there is some question is that I don’t believe that my freedom to worship requires my being together in a building with other people when I am free to gather with those same people in front of a screen in the safety of my own home.

I happen to believe there has been more active worship in the past few weeks than in the past.  There has been no infringement of worship experiences online whatsoever.

I DO understand the slippery slope issue and I am very uncomfortable with the arrest, but I don’t believe that asking people to stay at home for their safety and the safety of others is going to be a long range problem.

And I am greatly looking forward to the joy we will all have when we get together to praise God together in person again.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline Polly Ticks

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I have mixed emotions about this.  On the one hand the church can meet online and not risk the congregation's health, but on the other hand I hate to see the government have this much power.  If the government does it once, it will open the floodgates for future problems.
Exactly.  I understand the fierce objections to the comparisons between COVID-19 and the season flu, but if you look at it purely from a perspective of the number of deaths what is to stop an unscrupulous and over-reaching government from closing church, school, and/or restaurant doors next winter, as well, when flu deaths again reach the tens of thousands?


All good points, but where I still believe there is some question is that I don’t believe that my freedom to worship requires my being together in a building with other people when I am free to gather with those same people in front of a screen in the safety of my own home.

I happen to believe there has been more active worship in the past few weeks than in the past.  There has been no infringement of worship experiences online whatsoever.
Agree that there isn't an issue with what we CAN do.  (Although I would note that many older people who aren't as tech-savvy as those who regularly use discussion boards and such aren't having as easy of a time joining their online services.)  It's an issue of what we've been told we CAN'T do.

I DO understand the slippery slope issue and I am very uncomfortable with the arrest, but I don’t believe that asking people to stay at home for their safety and the safety of others is going to be a long range problem.
I don't believe that asking them to stay home is a problem, either.  It's when we starting mandating that they stay home that there is a problem.

And I am greatly looking forward to the joy we will all have when we get together to praise God together in person again.
And on that, we wholeheartedly agree!
 034
Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good, too. -Yogi Berra

Offline musiclady

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Exactly.  I understand the fierce objections to the comparisons between COVID-19 and the season flu, but if you look at it purely from a perspective of the number of deaths what is to stop an unscrupulous and over-reaching government from closing church, school, and/or restaurant doors next winter, as well, when flu deaths again reach the tens of thousands?

Agree that there isn't an issue with what we CAN do.  (Although I would note that many older people who aren't as tech-savvy as those who regularly use discussion boards and such aren't having as easy of a time joining their online services.)  It's an issue of what we've been told we CAN'T do.
I don't believe that asking them to stay home is a problem, either.  It's when we starting mandating that they stay home that there is a problem.
And on that, we wholeheartedly agree!
 034

There is just a shade of difference in our opinions, and I really understand and respect your views.

I would love it if every pastor were responsible and caring enough to advise their congregations to stay home for the next few weeks.

In the long run not getting together for a month beats the heck out of having people suffer and die because your pastor doesn’t use the brain God gave him.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline sneakypete

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I have no problem with voluntary social distancing.  My own church moved to online services and I'm happily attending from my sofa.  Having said that, I have a HUGE problem with the government strong-arming churches and businesses to close down and arresting people for exercising their constitutionally guaranteed rights, no matter how foolish I may think they are for doing so.  They should be free to make their own choices just as I should be.

@Polly Ticks

Besides,isn't there something in some old documents not mentioned much these days about "Freedom of Assembly?"
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline sneakypete

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I have mixed emotions about this.
 

@mrpotatohead

Not me. You either have a right,or you have a privilege the state MIGHT let you enjoy occasionally. IF they are in the mood.

 
Quote
On the one hand the church can meet online and not risk the congregation's health,


The personal connection/feeling of Brotherhood/sisterhood many thumpers get from sharing their views with like-minded people in person can't be obtained online.  It's an emotional thing.
I
Now,if there are GENUINE concerns about danger, I can see the government banning minor children from attending services,but the adults should left alone to make their own decisions.

You are either free,or you are a subject.



 
Quote
If the government does it once, it will open the floodgates for future problems.


You can bet the farm on that one!
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline roamer_1

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Apparently freedom of religion and freedom of assembly are subject to the approval of the government.  Who knew.

Yeah... Go figger. Not so unalienable after all.

Offline truth_seeker

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The US has an increasingly "suburbanized population."

People hold a reasonable expectation for their pursuit of "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

They form government jurisdictions, to maintain public safety, like clean water, measures to mitigate against the spread of contageous diseases.

Individual and group freedoms (rights) extend only to the boundary where the exercize thereof infringes on another's rights.

Early laws dealt with resources like land, grazing, forestry, hunting, water, navigation, air safety, etc.

If this church has a managing authority, they likely purchase liability insurance. That authority should direct the pastor, because his action is criminally negligent. In fact the congregation, should want the guy removed. He could wipe out their financial resources.


Analogy: Owner/manager of public space has knowledge of mold damage.

Said owner takes no steps to remediate said potentially harmful condition. Commercial or residential property. Like apartment dwellers.

Nothing about infringing on religious practice. It is verything about reasonable expectations in modern society.

 
"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Offline GrouchoTex

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Apparently freedom of religion and freedom of assembly are subject to the approval of the government.  Who knew.

So it appears.
The local government, at that!

Offline GrouchoTex

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So some here are in agreement that when the government decides to get rid of parts of the first amendment for the greater good, that this is okay.

Next pandemic comes, or any other major, and a progressive is in power, which amendments will it be okay to suspend then?

the 2nd?
the 4th?
the 5th?

Be careful what you wish for.

I want my government to be able to run its affairs, by taking as little money as possible from me and spending it as wisely as they can.
No more.
No less.
Even in times of crisis.

Offline musiclady

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So some here are in agreement that when the government decides to get rid of parts of the first amendment for the greater good, that this is okay.

Next pandemic comes, or any other major, and a progressive is in power, which amendments will it be okay to suspend then?

the 2nd?
the 4th?
the 5th?

Be careful what you wish for.

I want my government to be able to run its affairs, by taking as little money as possible from me and spending it as wisely as they can.
No more.
No less.
Even in times of crisis.

I haven't seen anyone say that.  And I'm absolutely certain that no one here believes that.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline GrouchoTex

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Really, more than one post here suggest the current situation trumps (no pun intended) the freedom of assembly, an enumerated right.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Do not misunderstand, I do not disagree with not assembling right now, but one should not be arrested for it.
I am working from home myself.

So my statement stands, and the part that says that others in power, in times of crisis, will try to suspend other parts of other amendments, that they find "troublesome".