Author Topic: Conservatism Is the Real Resistance  (Read 596 times)

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Online txradioguy

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Re: Conservatism Is the Real Resistance
« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2020, 09:35:00 PM »

Under which of Reagan's  "Principles," woul we position the 1986 Amnesty?

Like with his original stance on abortion as Governor of California...he admitted it was a mistake.

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And the huge Deficits?

You mean the ones under the Democrat controlled House?  Shall we talk about the nearly two decade long economic wave of prosperity that Regan's policies created despite Tip O'Neill and company?

The $2 trillion increase in GDP during his tenure.

The decline in the poverty level

The 69% increase in fiscal year Federal receipts when he was in office?

You sound just like Trump did when he was an invited speak on behalf of the House Democrats when he trashed Reagan's tax cuts and compared his policies to those of Russia.

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As a soldier, certainly you would recognize the vital importance of winning, as per Reagan's push to end the Cold War, fortunately by WINNING it.

Reagan won it by increasing the size of the military and investing in MilTech that forced the USSR into bankruptcy.  One of his first acts as Commander in Chief was to across the board raise our wages to the equivalent of our civilian counterparts and made sure we were paid well (by 1980's standards).

The 600 ship Navy (real count: 594 by 1987). 


Congress right now has rejected 3 times this Administration's effort to mothball a carrier 25 years early.  We've gotten legit raise in the last three years...no increase to the size of any of the branches of the Armed Forces meanwhile we've got a very modernized Russian military taking over huge chunks of their former SSR's encouraged by Trump's repeated threats to pull out of NATO.

China is executing a takeover of the entire South China Sea with a 500 mile exclusion zone and we're watching it happen and doing nothing about it.

Reagan won because he didn't just talk about winning he executed and implemented polices and plans to ensure we won the Cold War.

We're in Cold War 2.0 right now and all we're responding with is hot air and bluster.

I recognize the vital importance...I'm not sure if you do.  It takes more than just saying "winning" to actually do just that.



As for the first part of your question...I suggest you read the Constitution, The Bill of Rights and the Declaration if Independence.

If that kind of reading is too heavy for you...pull up youTube and watch "A Time For Choosing".  Or maybe read some William F. Buckley or study Barry Goldwater.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

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Online Smokin Joe

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Re: Conservatism Is the Real Resistance
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2020, 09:44:05 PM »
While we all navel gaze constitutionalists are being named to the bench, regulations are being reduced, the rule of law re established, the rat party disassembled, etc etc.

Who cares about it which definition is more accurate?
It's nice to have an objective, a goal when your opponents are is disarray, so you can meaningfully exploit that advantage.

I look for a government which governs least, in the sense that the Fed is confined to and complying with it's Constitutional Limitations and duties, respectively. That would make for smaller, cheaper government focused on National Defense, infrastructure (post roads), and maintaining standards for trade. WHile I can't agree with all that is going on in the several states, let those be the test beds for policy, that those States will prosper or decline based on how well they conduct themselves.

And above all, keep Government out of my rights, except to uphold them.
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Online Absalom

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Re: Conservatism Is the Real Resistance
« Reply #27 on: February 12, 2020, 11:59:30 PM »
Like with his original stance on abortion as Governor of California...he admitted it was a mistake.
You mean the ones under the Democrat controlled House?  Shall we talk about the nearly two decade long economic wave of prosperity that Regan's policies created despite Tip O'Neill and company?
The $2 trillion increase in GDP during his tenure.
The decline in the poverty level
The 69% increase in fiscal year Federal receipts when he was in office?
You sound just like Trump did when he was an invited speak on behalf of the House Democrats when he trashed Reagan's tax cuts and compared his policies to those of Russia.
Reagan won it by increasing the size of the military and investing in MilTech that forced the USSR into bankruptcy.  One of his first acts as Commander in Chief was to across the board raise our wages to the equivalent of our civilian counterparts and made sure we were paid well (by 1980's standards).
The 600 ship Navy (real count: 594 by 1987). 
Congress right now has rejected 3 times this Administration's effort to mothball a carrier 25 years early.  We've gotten legit raise in the last three years...no increase to the size of any of the branches of the Armed Forces meanwhile we've got a very modernized Russian military taking over huge chunks of their former SSR's encouraged by Trump's repeated threats to pull out of NATO.
China is executing a takeover of the entire South China Sea with a 500 mile exclusion zone and we're watching it happen and doing nothing about it.
Reagan won because he didn't just talk about winning he executed and implemented polices and plans to ensure we won the Cold War.
We're in Cold War 2.0 right now and all we're responding with is hot air and bluster.
I recognize the vital importance...I'm not sure if you do.  It takes more than just saying "winning" to actually do just that.
As for the first part of your question...I suggest you read the Constitution, The Bill of Rights and the Declaration if Independence.
If that kind of reading is too heavy for you...pull up youTube and watch "A Time For Choosing".  Or maybe read some William F. Buckley or study Barry Goldwater.
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Online Absalom

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Re: Conservatism Is the Real Resistance
« Reply #28 on: February 13, 2020, 03:28:28 PM »
My number one conservative principle, is winning.
If you fail with that, all the volumes of words and claims, and debates are not very much good.
If Trump (or another) fall short of one hundred percent perfect "conservatism," I readily accept that, knowing the alternative is not good.
If your one hundred percent  pure conservative can't get nominated, and elected, what good is he?
Romney, Kasich, Weld, Sanford, Amash, Flake, Kristol, etc.
-----------------------
Politics and winning have absolutely NOTHING to do w/principled conservatism.
The former are the obsession of assorted hustlers and those addicted to gambling.

Online Absalom

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Re: Conservatism Is the Real Resistance
« Reply #29 on: February 13, 2020, 04:07:10 PM »
On TBR all are entitled to their opinion yet that does not include the freedom to define
established concepts as one pleases.
For example, the great religions of Judaism and Roman Catholicism were defined at their
creation by their creed, doctrine, faith, practices, belief system; among many attributes.
So too were the economic systems of capitalism and socialism so defined and differentiated.
Yet on this topic, poster after poster implies that they are free to define conservatism or
libertarianism or liberalism, by what they perceive or understand these terms to mean.
THAT IS ARRANT NONSENSE AND UTTER HORSE MANURE!!!!!!
These terms have been defined by their creators thousands of years ago and that is the basis
for any debate or disagreement, not some hair brained notion someone heard on tee-vee!!!
 
« Last Edit: February 14, 2020, 03:11:43 PM by Absalom »

Online roamer_1

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Re: Conservatism Is the Real Resistance
« Reply #30 on: February 13, 2020, 06:39:25 PM »
What's with the antipathy towards "ism"? Isn't "conservatism" an "ism"?  Isn't capitalism an "ism"?

Maybe the discussion is more about Burkean conservatism versus the libertarian strain of conservatism that Reagan generally supported.  Because though there is overlap, they aren't quite the same thing.  Because if you're talking the conservatism of someone like Edmund Burke, then that's something a bit different, and does involve social values rather than just our view of government.  It places a lot more emphasis on tradition, stability, values, and "manners".

The Bushes and Romney are Burkean conservatives.  Trump very much is not, and that probably comes closest to explaining the fault line between those self-described conservatives who support him, and those who don't.

Not quite right @Maj. Bill Martin .

The Bushes are from the moderate wing, and Romney from the liberal wing of the Republican party
None are conservative at all.

Conservatives come from the right wing of the Republican party. The Goldwater/Reagan wing, which is also decidedly libertarian.If one does not believe in basic libertarianism, I find it hard to claim political Conservatism at all, because that is the very core set of values.

I would also submit that Reaganism would be a better couch for Burkean Conservatism to sit upon, as the major difference between Goldwater and Reagan is the addition of the social right and their principles to Goldwater libertarianism. Not a perfect fit perhaps, but the moral social context is there.

Online roamer_1

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Re: Conservatism Is the Real Resistance
« Reply #31 on: February 13, 2020, 07:35:54 PM »
That sounds an awful lot like hair splitting.



No it's not.  Again you're hair splitting in an attempt to distance yourself from the more Liberal/Progressive aspects of your party.

No @txradioguy , that ain't right. Political Conservatism ala Goldwater is conservative libertarianism, somewhat referred to as civil-libertarianism, to provide a distinction between the libertarians on the Right and the Big 'L' libertarian party.

@Maj. Bill Martin is correct. It is unfortunate that the moderate republicans have become so successful in shearing libertarianism from conservatism by a false concatenation between Goldwater and the Libertarian party. Because it used to be that the Libertarian Party would often vote with and for Conservatives because for them, Goldwater was good enough.

American Conservatism is at its core a blending of libertarianism and classic liberalism - Classic Liberalism largely became libertarianism to draw a distinction when modern liberalism took over the name.  And then, when the Libertarian party bastardized libertarianism, doctrinal libertarians moved over to Goldwater Conservatism.

Online roamer_1

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Re: Conservatism Is the Real Resistance
« Reply #32 on: February 13, 2020, 07:48:41 PM »
On TBF all are entitled to their opinion yet that does not include the freedom to define
established concepts as one pleases.
For example, the great religions of Judaism and Roman Catholicism were defined at their
creation by their creed, doctrine, faith, practices, belief system; among many attributes.
So too were the economic systems of capitalism and socialism so defined and differentiated.
Yet on this topic, poster after poster implies that they are free to define conservatism or
libertarianism or liberalism, by what they perceive or understand these terms to mean.
THAT IS ARRANT NONSENSE AND UTTER HORSE MANURE!!!!!!
These terms have been defined by their creators thousands of years ago and that is the basis
for any debate or disagreement, not some hair brained notion someone heard on tee-vee!!!

 :beer:

The problem @Absalom is in the purposeful confusion of terms and the intentional attempts to redefine conservatism with this current lot trying to win the Conservative mantle by redefinition into a populist pragmatism, which Conservatism of any stripe definitely is not.

Online Absalom

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Re: Conservatism Is the Real Resistance
« Reply #33 on: February 13, 2020, 09:10:53 PM »
:beer:
The problem @Absalom is in the purposeful confusion of terms and the intentional attempts to redefine conservatism with this current lot trying to win the Conservative mantle by redefinition into a populist pragmatism, which Conservatism of any stripe definitely is not.
--------------------------
Thanks for the click.
As you well know, all this verbal sophistry further confuses and muddles,
as it subtracts from our knowledge/understanding of Principled Conservatism.

Online musiclady

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Re: Conservatism Is the Real Resistance
« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2020, 10:38:35 PM »
Bkmk

Some great stuff here!
Character still matters.  It always matters.

May 3, 2016 - the day the Republican party left ME.  I am now without a Party, and quite possibly without a country.  May God have mercy!

Online Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Conservatism Is the Real Resistance
« Reply #35 on: February 16, 2020, 05:47:40 PM »
No @txradioguy , that ain't right. Political Conservatism ala Goldwater is conservative libertarianism, somewhat referred to as civil-libertarianism, to provide a distinction between the libertarians on the Right and the Big 'L' libertarian party.

@Maj. Bill Martin is correct. It is unfortunate that the moderate republicans have become so successful in shearing libertarianism from conservatism by a false concatenation between Goldwater and the Libertarian party. Because it used to be that the Libertarian Party would often vote with and for Conservatives because for them, Goldwater was good enough.

American Conservatism is at its core a blending of libertarianism and classic liberalism - Classic Liberalism largely became libertarianism to draw a distinction when modern liberalism took over the name.  And then, when the Libertarian party bastardized libertarianism, doctrinal libertarians moved over to Goldwater Conservatism.

@roamer_1

 :yowsa:

Online Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Conservatism Is the Real Resistance
« Reply #36 on: February 16, 2020, 05:57:49 PM »
Not quite right @Maj. Bill Martin .

The Bushes are from the moderate wing, and Romney from the liberal wing of the Republican party
None are conservative at all.

They are Burkean conservatives -- interested above all else in preserving tradition and stability, believing that manners and not giving offense are of high importance, etc...  Edmund Burke used to be called the father of conservatism, and at the time, he was.  To him, radicalism and conservatism were polar opposites.  And he was more or less right. 

The problem is that the meaning of conservatism in the Burkean sense changes as the status quo changes.  If the country has moved significantly to the left, and you are still defending stability, tradition, and decorum, you are no longer defending classical liberal values.  You end up defending leftist values because they have become the new status quo, and you end up preserving/defending values that are inconsistent with classical liberalism.

So when the company has drifted (or perhaps moved rapidly) leftward, "stability" and "tradition" and "respect for dominant values" are no longer good things.  What you need is more radicalism.  And that is where the Bushes and Romneys have split from those who now support Trump.  They are still locked in the mindset of Burkean conservatives who think manners, etc., are so very important.  Well, there comes a time when you have to drop the manners, and start getting more ornery.  And they just are temperamentally not suited to doing that.

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Re: Conservatism Is the Real Resistance
« Reply #37 on: February 16, 2020, 11:55:52 PM »
They are Burkean conservatives -- interested above all else in preserving tradition and stability, believing that manners and not giving offense are of high importance, etc...  Edmund Burke used to be called the father of conservatism, and at the time, he was.  To him, radicalism and conservatism were polar opposites.  And he was more or less right. 

The problem is that the meaning of conservatism in the Burkean sense changes as the status quo changes.  If the country has moved significantly to the left, and you are still defending stability, tradition, and decorum, you are no longer defending classical liberal values.  You end up defending leftist values because they have become the new status quo, and you end up preserving/defending values that are inconsistent with classical liberalism.

So when the company has drifted (or perhaps moved rapidly) leftward, "stability" and "tradition" and "respect for dominant values" are no longer good things.  What you need is more radicalism.  And that is where the Bushes and Romneys have split from those who now support Trump.  They are still locked in the mindset of Burkean conservatives who think manners, etc., are so very important.  Well, there comes a time when you have to drop the manners, and start getting more ornery.  And they just are temperamentally not suited to doing that.

@roamer_1

I will have to flatly disagree @Maj. Bill Martin ... Your portrayal of tradition is far too fluid to suit me.
I do not see Burke's sense of 'dominant values' changing critically with whatever society determines to be the norm - Quite the opposite. I see tradition as established in Burkean Conservatism as being anchored by history - By a vast run of history, proving the efficacy of those traditional mores.

I can see in Burke the adoption of Christian values as permissible in comparison to ages-old Celtic mores as contained in Natural law - Largely because they are compatible in the first place, recognizing in one the continuance of the other... That is a far different thing than blithely accepting the so-called 'post-Christian' modernity as expressed in a societal change developed in a decade or two. If tradition were to be thought that malleable it would be of no value at all.

Likewise your sense that radicalism cannot be contained within a gentleman's conduct - Simply false.
A proper gentleman is a gentleman by choosing. Restraint implies - nay, demands - that it is in fact a choice, and that choosing requires the ability to do otherwise. A gentleman is not incapable - Rather, spring steel, tightly wound. And in that, even in battle, comes a constant self-monitoring. The ability to cease, to grant mercy, to abhor torture, to kill quickly. To conduct oneself and acquit oneself accordingly in all things as a form, as an example, of justice.

That is not what is demonstrated in the Bush moderates, nor in Romney's liberals...What is found there is compliance with the overturning of tradition. The subversion of justice. That is just as abhorrent as the boorishness of Tump - One kind the way of a coward, the other the way of an oaf.
In that I must reject your portrayal of things wholesale, with no offense intended.


Online txradioguy

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Re: Conservatism Is the Real Resistance
« Reply #38 on: February 17, 2020, 08:44:09 PM »
No @txradioguy , that ain't right. Political Conservatism ala Goldwater is conservative libertarianism, somewhat referred to as civil-libertarianism, to provide a distinction between the libertarians on the Right and the Big 'L' libertarian party.

But if it weren't for traditionalist conservatism as espoused by Bill Buckley Goldwater and Reagan after him wouldn't have been the major figures in Conservatism that they were IMHO.

He laid the groundwork for both of them and there's more classic liberalism (not the modern version) than there was Libertarian in him when he espoused his political views.



Quote
@Maj. Bill Martin is correct. It is unfortunate that the moderate republicans have become so successful in shearing libertarianism from conservatism by a false concatenation between Goldwater and the Libertarian party. Because it used to be that the Libertarian Party would often vote with and for Conservatives because for them, Goldwater was good enough.

No what's done more to "shear Libertarianism from conservatism" as you put it has been the likes of Lyndon LaRouche and Ron Paul and to a small extend Rand Paul.

You ask most people today who they think of when they think if Libertarianism...those are the three names you get.  And the absolutely loony positions of Ron Paul that he espoused during his last presidential run did the Libertarians no favors either.

Quote
American Conservatism is at its core a blending of libertarianism and classic liberalism - Classic Liberalism largely became libertarianism to draw a distinction when modern liberalism took over the name.  And then, when the Libertarian party bastardized libertarianism, doctrinal libertarians moved over to Goldwater Conservatism.

Disagree to a point.  "Doctrinal" Libertarians are still...from what I can tell...anti war...open borders and pro drug.  That's not anywhere near being what a Goldwater or even a Reagan conservative would have stood for.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

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Online roamer_1

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Re: Conservatism Is the Real Resistance
« Reply #39 on: February 17, 2020, 11:34:54 PM »
Disagree to a point.  "Doctrinal" Libertarians are still...from what I can tell...anti war...open borders and pro drug.  That's not anywhere near being what a Goldwater or even a Reagan conservative would have stood for.

Not exactly true. Goldwater libertarians, and I know a few, may not be pro drug, but they ARE against the drug war, pointing directly there as a big reason for the authoritarian fed, and I have to agree.  TWoD turned a lot of em off, and I am getting turned off too. Turns out they were right.  It has lost us a lot of liberty, and didn't work to boot.

Perhaps we should have listened to those libertarians who were screaming, "Federalism!" at the top of their lungs. They are the purists when it comes to the Constitution.

Online Smokin Joe

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Re: Conservatism Is the Real Resistance
« Reply #40 on: February 18, 2020, 01:18:45 AM »
Not exactly true. Goldwater libertarians, and I know a few, may not be pro drug, but they ARE against the drug war, pointing directly there as a big reason for the authoritarian fed, and I have to agree.  TWoD turned a lot of em off, and I am getting turned off too. Turns out they were right.  It has lost us a lot of liberty, and didn't work to boot.

Perhaps we should have listened to those libertarians who were screaming, "Federalism!" at the top of their lungs. They are the purists when it comes to the Constitution.
IF the 'drug war' had started with securing the borders, the alleged need to trash the 4th and other Amendments would never have arisen.
The key to that is securing the borders, stopping the influx. Domestic operations can be taken down from there, but with literally tons of that stuff coming in from all over, it's like pissing on a house fire. Some people stay employed, stuff gets taken, opportunities for corruption are rampant, and like you said, the whole WoD is ineffective overall, despite all the seizures.

In the meantime, you can't get the good cold medicine, and ffs don't buy organic solvents in bulk, even if you have a legitimate use for them or you are going to be shook down at some level.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
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Online DCPatriot

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Re: Conservatism Is the Real Resistance
« Reply #41 on: February 18, 2020, 07:34:23 AM »
ROFL!

Some of you guys here have been waiting 5 years for this article.

Pathetic....if this were a Schlichter column, it would have been locked by now.
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Online roamer_1

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Re: Conservatism Is the Real Resistance
« Reply #42 on: February 18, 2020, 09:31:52 AM »
IF the 'drug war' had started with securing the borders, the alleged need to trash the 4th and other Amendments would never have arisen.
The key to that is securing the borders, stopping the influx. Domestic operations can be taken down from there, but with literally tons of that stuff coming in from all over, it's like pissing on a house fire. Some people stay employed, stuff gets taken, opportunities for corruption are rampant, and like you said, the whole WoD is ineffective overall, despite all the seizures.

In the meantime, you can't get the good cold medicine, and ffs don't buy organic solvents in bulk, even if you have a legitimate use for them or you are going to be shook down at some level.

And now the seizures drive the deal... What is left of justice when you can be arrested and hauled to jail, and your property seized and sold before you are even convicted. And we all know Columbian grease in DC is what keeps that southern border open. Nobody's going to give up something that lucrative.  And that in the end is what the WoD has given us.


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