Author Topic: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]  (Read 1583 times)

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Offline Fishrrman

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Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
« Reply #50 on: February 08, 2020, 07:02:51 PM »
Pete sneakily observed:
"If so,you must be one of those Republicans that like losing."

Indeed. Seem to be a gaggle of 'em, right here in this forum!

Offline txradioguy

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Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
« Reply #51 on: February 08, 2020, 07:13:31 PM »
Yes.. but he was trying to dispel the liberal speak  "revenge"...

Doesn’t matter. There’s FOIA and 1974 Privact Act violations associated with what he just did by talking about those.

Not cool at all.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

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Online Smokin Joe

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Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
« Reply #52 on: February 08, 2020, 07:33:46 PM »
@240B

Let's hope. That used to be SOP,but the Pentegram is now loaded with Clinton and Obomber appointees.
Seems to me, keeping your mouth shut was part of that whole 'security' thingy.
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Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
« Reply #53 on: February 08, 2020, 07:43:11 PM »
Doesn’t matter. There’s FOIA and 1974 Privact Act violations associated with what he just did by talking about those.

Not cool at all.

Yep...Mike and I talked about this at dinner and said the same thing...have we ever seen John Kerry's file on his Purple Hearts...NO...
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Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
« Reply #54 on: February 08, 2020, 07:50:12 PM »
Doesn’t matter. There’s FOIA and 1974 Privact Act violations associated with what he just did by talking about those.

Not cool at all.

Perhaps you can answer the question I previously asked @Night Hides Not @txradioguy

Can you point out to me the mention of ANY specific document in what the president said?  I cannot find that for the life of me.

Online Smokin Joe

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Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
« Reply #55 on: February 08, 2020, 07:52:50 PM »
Yep...Mike and I talked about this at dinner and said the same thing...have we ever seen John Kerry's file on his Purple Hearts...NO...
True enough, but it was seared into the popular fable that he was in Cambodia....

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Offline txradioguy

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Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
« Reply #57 on: February 08, 2020, 08:32:53 PM »
Perhaps you can answer the question I previously asked @Night Hides Not @txradioguy

Can you point out to me the mention of ANY specific document in what the president said?  I cannot find that for the life of me.

@Bigun the very fact he mentioned the performance evaluations (Officer Evaluation Report) means he's seen them and knows he had at least one bad one in there.  You want to split hairs to try and defend Trump running his mouth on this and I get that.  He doesn't have to mention a specific OER to be in violation.

The Privacy Act of 1974 and FOIA are very specific with these types of evaluations. 

And for everyone rah-raging Trump doing this...do a little introspection and ask yourself how pissed would you be if Hillary or Obama or President Sanders (God forbid) pulled the same stunt on an officer who'd been critical of them and make disparaging comments about performance reviews of an officer that had been critical of one of them.

Y'all would have veins exploding in your foreheads over the mere thought of that happening.

I'm not defending what Vindman did and he deserved to be let go from his position so does his brother.  He stepped in it big time and it's very safe to say he's reached terminal rank in his military career.

But he's still a member of the uniform armed forces just like I am and as such deserves the same protections just as he deserves the same punishments for wrong doing as any soldier does.

Just because the person he dared to challenge was the President doesn't strip him of those protections just because the pitchfork and torches crowd wants it that way.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

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Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

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Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
« Reply #58 on: February 08, 2020, 08:34:36 PM »
Yep...Mike and I talked about this at dinner and said the same thing...have we ever seen John Kerry's file on his Purple Hearts...NO...

Or how about the fact that all of his awards are dated and signed by officials who were in positions in the DoD after Carter gave blanket amnesty for the Vietnam War protesters and deserters?
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
« Reply #59 on: February 08, 2020, 08:35:07 PM »
Bottom line is that he worked in the White House, and if the President no longer trusts either his judgment or discretion, he cannot be effective in his job.  This has to be one of those things where the President has absolute authority to discharge someone.  And I'm guessing that any law that tried to prevent him from firing Vindeman likely would be declared unconstitutional.

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Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
« Reply #60 on: February 08, 2020, 08:37:27 PM »
@Bigun the very fact he mentioned the performance evaluations (Officer Evaluation Report) means he's seen them and knows he had at least one bad one in there.  You want to split hairs to try and defend Trump running his mouth on this and I get that.  He doesn't have to mention a specific OER to be in violation.

The Privacy Act of 1974 and FOIA are very specific with these types of evaluations. 

And for everyone rah-raging Trump doing this...do a little introspection and ask yourself how pissed would you be if Hillary or Obama or President Sanders (God forbid) pulled the same stunt on an officer who'd been critical of them and make disparaging comments about performance reviews of an officer that had been critical of one of them.

Y'all would have veins exploding in your foreheads over the mere thought of that happening.

I'm not defending what Vindman did and he deserved to be let go from his position so does his brother.  He stepped in it big time and it's very safe to say he's reached terminal rank in his military career.

But he's still a member of the uniform armed forces just like I am and as such deserves the same protections just as he deserves the same punishments for wrong doing as any soldier does.

Just because the person he dared to challenge was the President doesn't strip him of those protections just because the pitchfork and torches crowd wants it that way.
You are, of course, right. It isn't right to release information (leak) from the bully pulpit of the POTUS any more than it was right for Vindman to do so. He serves in the White House at the discretion of the POTUS, and that alone should be sufficient cause for removal. Let the Democrats whine all they want. He never claimed 'whistleblower' status, he just leaked.
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Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
« Reply #61 on: February 08, 2020, 08:47:37 PM »
Yep...Mike and I talked about this at dinner and said the same thing...have we ever seen John Kerry's file on his Purple Hearts...NO...

@mystery-ak

Yes,and no. The awards and the details were posted on FR years ago.For example,we know at least two of the wounds didn't even need stitches. They quit bleeding on their own. We also know he  wrote himself up for them.

Here is the deal. Kerry volunteered for VN so he could get "war hero pt boat" creds like his idol,JFK. At the time he volunteered to go to VN,the boats were patrolling off-shore,stopping and searching VN fishing boats. Pretty safe duty because your boat has multiple heavy weapons and some armor plating,and you are facing off with an unarmed wooden fishing boat.

By the time he got to VN the focus had shifted to smaller boats patrolling the river systems,and getting shot at from NVA hiding along the river banks. MUCH riskier duty,and he wanted no part of it. The rules at that time was any soldier,sailor,or airman that got wounded 3 times automatically got orders to be transferred back to the US,unless they protested the transfer.

So John Wayne Kerry got "wounded" 3 times in maybe 3 months,and none of the wounds required hospitalization. At least two of them
scabbed over and quit bleeding on their own.

He also wrote himself up for the SS while serving as acting CO of the squadron while the actual CO was on leave. With his political
connections with the Brass via the Kennedy family,this wasn't questioned and he got the award as well as a transfer back to the
US as a "3 times wounded hero". Even though there seems to have been no witnesses or official records of the battles.

He comes back to the US and serves out his obligation by using HIS own private plane to fly an Admiral around to staff meetings,and
when he gets out of the Navy he joins the Peace Movement as a wounded hero who is anti-war. At one protest he was filmed throwing
"his medals" over the WH fence. Turns out they were medals he bought at a pawn shop,which actually makes them worth about as much as
the ones he "bought" with political influence. We know this because after he became a US Senator his medals and the awards were hung on his
office wall.
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Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
« Reply #62 on: February 08, 2020, 08:52:42 PM »
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1226154003551178752?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.foxnews.com%2Fpolitics%2Ftrump-slams-very-insubordinate-vindman-day-after-ouster-from-white-house

I could be wrong here @EdinVA @txradioguy but MY reading of that is that the president is refering to the public statements of Vindman's CO and NOT any paper performance report which, I VERY much doubt, the president has seen.

Here is the relevant language:

Quote
...given a horrendous report by his superior, the man he reported to, who publicly stated that Vindman had problems with judgement, adhering to the chain of command and leaking information.

Offline txradioguy

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Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
« Reply #63 on: February 08, 2020, 08:55:33 PM »
I could be wrong here @EdinVA @txradioguy but MY reading of that is that the president is refering to the public statements of Vindman's CO and NOT any paper performance report which, I VERY much doubt, the president has seen.

Here is the relevant language:

I've read the quotes from the LTC that reprimanded him during an exercise in Germany.  That's different than referring to his performance evaluations.  The rebuke given to Vindman about his comments to some Russian and Ukranian soldiers that degraded his fellow soldiers is different than what Trump is hinting at in his comments today.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

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Online EdinVA

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Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
« Reply #64 on: February 08, 2020, 09:06:03 PM »
I could be wrong here @EdinVA @txradioguy but MY reading of that is that the president is refering to the public statements of Vindman's CO and NOT any paper performance report which, I VERY much doubt, the president has seen.

Here is the relevant language:
@Bigun @txradioguy
I absolutely understand txradioguy and under "normal" circumstances, agree.
Vindman, in my mind, committed treason by knowingly and with purpose leaking classified information to pursue his personal agenda thereby forfeiting all of his rights, including privacy.
But I am no lawyer and I just hope these guy are held accountable and if the only accountability I can get is a public thrashing, then I will take it.

Offline Night Hides Not

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Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
« Reply #65 on: February 08, 2020, 09:09:42 PM »
@Night Hides Not Can you point out for me when the President ever mentioned any specific document in that tweet?  it seems pretty damned generic to me.

Quote
Actually, I don’t know him, never spoke to him, or met him (I don’t believe!) but, he was very insubordinate, reported contents of my “perfect” calls incorrectly, & was given a horrendous report by his superior, the man he reported to, who publicly stated that Vindman had problems with judgement, adhering to the chain of command and leaking information,' he continued.

Seems a little more than just generic to me. To use an adjective like "horrendous", Trump either was talking out of his rear, or he saw the report.

Whoever Vindman's superior is/was, he's in the wrong, too.

I can see where others have a different interpretation than mine. I just think it's bad form to discuss an officer's efficiency reports in public. LTC Vindman needs to retire and get the hell out of Dodge. He'll probably make big bucks as a "national security analyst" for CNN or MSNBC.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2020, 09:14:40 PM by Night Hides Not »
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Offline txradioguy

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Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
« Reply #66 on: February 08, 2020, 09:16:54 PM »
@Bigun @txradioguy
I absolutely understand txradioguy and under "normal" circumstances, agree.

"Normal circumstances" or not the standard is the same.  Anything else is just making excuses for bad behavior.


Vindman, in my mind, committed treason by knowingly and with purpose leaking classified information to pursue his personal agenda thereby forfeiting all of his rights, including privacy.[/quote]

In your mind maybe...in realty and what the law defines as "treason" no he didn't do that.  There are other laws that cover what he did and as I said before it's inexcusable...but that doesn't make the President doing it justifiable.  If anything Trump should set a BETTER example than the people that work for him.


Quote
But I am no lawyer and I just hope these guy are held accountable and if the only accountability I can get is a public thrashing, then I will take it.

You and the rest of the pitchfork and torches crowd won't get your pound of flesh.  What I laid out earlier in this thread about how they will treat him is the most likely course of action for what they will do with him and his brother.

Sorry...but that's just the reality of how the military works.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

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Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
« Reply #67 on: February 08, 2020, 09:16:56 PM »
@Bigun @txradioguy
I absolutely understand txradioguy and under "normal" circumstances, agree.
Vindman, in my mind, committed treason by knowingly and with purpose leaking classified information to pursue his personal agenda thereby forfeiting all of his rights, including privacy.
But I am no lawyer and I just hope these guy are held accountable and if the only accountability I can get is a public thrashing, then I will take it.

OK @EdinVA Again, I very much doubt that the president has seen even one official (U.S. Army) report of any kind relating to Colonel Vindman but I do agree with you otherwise. 

IMHO the SOB should be, at minimum,  Court Martialed under Article 81 UCMJ which reads:


Quote
Text of statute. Any person subject to this chapter who conspires with any other person to commit an offense under this chapter shall if one or more of the conspirators does an act to effect the object of the conspiracy, be punished as a court-martial may direct.

It is VERY clear to me.

« Last Edit: February 08, 2020, 09:18:23 PM by Bigun »

Online mystery-ak

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Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
« Reply #68 on: February 08, 2020, 09:18:44 PM »
Seems a little more than just generic to me. To use an adjective like "horrendous", Trump either was talking out of his rear, or he saw the report.

Whoever Vindman's superior is/was, he's in the wrong, too.

If the CinC asked Vindman's CO about his performance the CO is obligated to tell the CinC....but the CinC is not obligated and should not tell the world about his performance...the only way the world would hear about his performance is during a Court Martial unless it was sealed...I expect the treasonous twins will file a lawsuit now...

Trump should have just fired them which is his prerogative, and kept his mouth shut....jmo
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Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
« Reply #69 on: February 08, 2020, 09:20:12 PM »
OK @EdinVA Again, I very much doubt that the president has seen even one official (U.S. Army) report of any kind relating to Colonel Vindman but I do agree with you otherwise. 

IMHO the SOB should be Court Martialed under Article 81 UCMJ which reads:


It is VERY clear to me.



As long as the Dems protect these people all we have is speculation and not enough to meet the requirements for even an Article 32 investigation.  It's all circumstantial.

The Vindman brothers will retire and be in their dotage before there is ever enough proof to back up what we all think happened.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

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Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
« Reply #70 on: February 08, 2020, 09:20:33 PM »
If the CinC asked Vindman's CO about his performance the CO is obligated to tell the CinC....but the CinC is not obligated and should not tell the world about his performance...the only way the world would hear about his performance is during a Court Martial unless it was sealed...I expect the treasonous twins will file a lawsuit now...

Trump should have just fired them which is his prerogative, and kept his mouth shut....jmo

QFT
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

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Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
« Reply #71 on: February 08, 2020, 09:21:25 PM »
"Normal circumstances" or not the standard is the same.  Anything else is just making excuses for bad behavior.


Vindman, in my mind, committed treason by knowingly and with purpose leaking classified information to pursue his personal agenda thereby forfeiting all of his rights, including privacy.

In your mind maybe...in realty and what the law defines as "treason" no he didn't do that.  There are other laws that cover what he did and as I said before it's inexcusable...but that doesn't make the President doing it justifiable.  If anything Trump should set a BETTER example than the people that work for him.


You and the rest of the pitchfork and torches crowd won't get your pound of flesh.  What I laid out earlier in this thread about how they will treat him is the most likely course of action for what they will do with him and his brother.

Sorry...but that's just the reality of how the military works.

You are probably right @txradioguy and IMHO, that is a cryin damned shame!  In my day the Army would have thrown the book at a bastard like him.

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Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
« Reply #72 on: February 08, 2020, 09:24:17 PM »
You are probably right @txradioguy and IMHO, that is a cryin damned shame!  In my day the Army would have thrown the book at a bastard like him.

I'm not disagreeing with you on that @Bigun.  Im old school enough to think they need to be put in front of formation and have their ranks ripped off their uniform...the Army name tapes stripped off their BDU's and the formation turns their back on them as they are escorted off post in shame.

But having served long enough in the current Army environment...that's not gonna happen anymore.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2020, 09:31:32 PM by txradioguy »
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

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Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
« Reply #73 on: February 08, 2020, 09:28:02 PM »
I'm not disagreeing with you on that @Bigun.  Im old school enough to think they need to be put in front of formation and have their ranks rilled off their uniform...the Army name tapes stripped off their BDU's and the formation turns their back on them as they are escorted off post in shame.

But having served long enough in the current Army environment...that's not gonna happen anymore.

 :crying: :crying: :crying:

Offline ArneFufkin

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Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
« Reply #74 on: February 08, 2020, 09:28:08 PM »
If the CinC asked Vindman's CO about his performance the CO is obligated to tell the CinC....but the CinC is not obligated and should not tell the world about his performance...the only way the world would hear about his performance is during a Court Martial unless it was sealed...I expect the treasonous twins will file a lawsuit now...

Trump should have just fired them which is his prerogative, and kept his mouth shut....jmo

Respectfully disagree Myst.

It would have leaked.  This is better.   So what if they sue the CinC?   There is a "problematic" little thing called ... Discovery.  That NONE of the Palace Coup participants can ever survive.

He and his odious twin were moles and betrayers.   I never thought it possible .. but they may be more despicable Americans than the "Castro Twins".   Public humiliation is better, and the predictable MSM/Dimm outrage only amplifies his treachery.   DoD needs to handle his career at this juncture. 

Transfer him out of the WH.  Get RID of all of them.  I kinda like one proposal that the NSC be moved across the Potomac and out of the White House.   They're entrenched enemies until proven otherwise IMO.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2020, 09:32:47 PM by ArneFufkin »


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