Author Topic: Supreme Court To Decide If Atheism Can Keep Its Monopoly On K-12 Schools  (Read 2403 times)

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Online corbe

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Supreme Court To Decide If Atheism Can Keep Its Monopoly On K-12 Schools

Today the Supreme Court hears a case that could undo a century of decisions that have attacked and undermined religious beliefs by secularizing public education.

By Joy Pullmann

January 22, 2020


Today the U.S. Supreme Court hears a case that could determine whether parents and taxpayers have any choices about the kind of religion American children are taught with taxpayer funds. Espinoza v. Montana Department of Revenue concerns whether private donations may support schools that make their religious beliefs explicit. It could also undo a century of U.S. court and legislative decisions that used animus between Protestants and Catholics to attack the faith of both kinds of Christians’ children over the last century.

Five years ago, Montana’s legislature enacted a tiny school choice program that allows residents to deduct up to $150 on state taxes for their donations to private school scholarships. Eighteen states offer similar charitable opportunities, which fund private schools using private money. Montana’s taxation agency, however, banned religious schools from accessing these private donations, on the grounds that would violate the state constitution’s ban on using public funds for “sectarian” schools.

Since these school choice programs employ private funds, instead of direct taxpayer support such as through vouchers, they have been less successfully challenged in courts on the grounds Montana’s bureaucracy employed. Thirty-seven states include some variation of this prohibition in their constitutions, and several run programs similar to Montana’s, often with courts’ approval. Now the Supreme Court will deal with the discrepancy.

<..snip..>

https://thefederalist.com/2020/01/22/supreme-court-to-decide-if-atheism-can-keep-its-monopoly-on-k-12-schools/
No government in the 12,000 years of modern mankind history has led its people into anything but the history books with a simple lesson, don't let this happen to you.

Offline PeteS in CA

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IMO, it's a pretty close call, and could come down to parsing out the specific clause. I can understand how the perception that it was Protestant vs. Catholic motivated - and the perception may be real, historically - but if the clause was written in a general way it, over time, would have been applied to Lutheran private schools (such as those of the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod), Fundie-gelical private schools such as became common in the 1960s and 1970s, and more. So, IMO, the Protestant vs. Catholic thingy may, historically (e.g. Pierce vs. Society of Sisters, regarding an OR law that basically forbade private schools), have been real, but it's irrelevant or a red herring in a modern context.

There's also lots of devils in the details if the degree of religious content/time becomes an issue.
If, as anti-Covid-vaxxers claim, https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2021/robert-f-kennedy-jr-said-the-covid-19-vaccine-is-the-deadliest-vaccine-ever-made-thats-not-true/ , https://gospelnewsnetwork.org/2021/11/23/covid-shots-are-the-deadliest-vaccines-in-medical-history/ , The Vaccine is deadly, where in the US have Pfizer and Moderna hidden the millions of bodies of those who died of "vaccine injury"? Is reality a Big Pharma Shill?

Millions now living should have died. Anti-Covid-Vaxxer ghouls hardest hit.

Offline sneakypete

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Atheism has a monolopy on K-12 schools?

Since when?

I see the faithful are still able to lie.
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Offline roamer_1

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Atheism has a monolopy on K-12 schools?

Since when?

I see the faithful are still able to lie.

@sneakypete
Yes - Humanism, which is largely the same thing.

Offline sneakypete

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@sneakypete
Yes - Humanism, which is largely the same thing.

@roamer_1

Are you coming out on the record as not being human?
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline roamer_1

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@roamer_1

Are you coming out on the record as not being human?

@sneakypete
Humanism is a doctrine. A philosophy... IOW a religion.
Look it up. Ignorance can be fixed.

Offline sneakypete

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@sneakypete
Humanism is a doctrine. A philosophy... IOW a religion.
Look it up. Ignorance can be fixed.

@roamer_1

And humans are people.

Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline roamer_1

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@roamer_1

And humans are people.

@sneakypete

So what? Two separate things.

Offline sneakypete

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@sneakypete

So what? Two separate things.

@roamer_1

Nice of you to finally notice.
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline PeteS in CA

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Believe it or not, the topic of this thread is a case that will be argued before the US Supreme Court. Anyone want to try an on-topic response?

 :im waiting:
If, as anti-Covid-vaxxers claim, https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2021/robert-f-kennedy-jr-said-the-covid-19-vaccine-is-the-deadliest-vaccine-ever-made-thats-not-true/ , https://gospelnewsnetwork.org/2021/11/23/covid-shots-are-the-deadliest-vaccines-in-medical-history/ , The Vaccine is deadly, where in the US have Pfizer and Moderna hidden the millions of bodies of those who died of "vaccine injury"? Is reality a Big Pharma Shill?

Millions now living should have died. Anti-Covid-Vaxxer ghouls hardest hit.

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Believe it or not, the topic of this thread is a case that will be argued before the US Supreme Court. Anyone want to try an on-topic response?

 :im waiting:

@PeteS in CA

I'm confused over exactly what this case is about, and I'm kind of tired of trying to find a clear statement of the question(s) presented.  The things I've read are so biased one way or the other that I can't find a fair statement of the issue.  What I do understand is that there was a Montana program that permitted taxpayers to give a credit for school tuition, without regard to whether the school had a religious affiliation.  The Tax Board said the money can't go to religious schools, and so barred the credit for people using it for religious schools.  They claimed religious bias, and so sued the Tax Board.  The Montana Supreme Court responded by tossing the entire program, so now there is no tax credit available at all even for secular private schooling.  But, the case hasn't been dismissed as moot, so that's the puzzle.  As I see it, there are two potential questions, and I don't know which is actually the case:

1) Cancelling an entire state program because some of the money might go to religious schools should parents direct it so is unconstitutional, because it is evidence of anti-religious bias.  So, even though wiping out the whole program would seem to be non-discriminatory, it in fact is unconstitutional because the motivation for killing the program is unconstitutional bias.  Or....

2) The Court is hearing the original underlying claim -- that a state cannot lawfully bar private religious schools from having the same access to funds as do private secular schools -- that was at issue before the Montana Supreme Court nuked the whole program.  In other words, they're ignoring the decision of the Montana Supreme Court to moot the whole issue by eliminating the program.

Or is it something else I'm not grasping?

Anyway, I'm thinking it is 1).  If so, I'm kind of torn.  I am not a fan of invalidating legislative or executive actions based on trying to discern the motivation of those passing the law.  Either the action is constitutional on its face, or it isn't.  That was kind of the issue in that North Carolina voting I.D. case.  So, my gut would be to side with Montana, and say that if they nuked the program so that everyone is treated evenly, that's constitutional.  Even if it was motivated by a desire to penalize religious private schools.

I say I'm torn because SCOTUS declined to take up that North Carolina case, and therefore let stand the idea that a bad motive can invalidate an otherwise constitutional law.  And if we're going to start basing constitutionality off motivations, then I'd side with the plaintiffs here.

If I'm right about this being 1), then it's actually a bigger case than it seems at first blush, and goes beyond just whether or not religious schools can get money.  For example, if Congress votes to reduce payments for something like Medicaid, could someone then sue and claim that Congress couldn't do that because minorities benefit from it disproportionately, and the cuts were (allegedly) motivated by anti-minority sentiment?  In other words, can all Congressional actions be second-guessed for constitutionality because of motive, even if they are unbiased on their face?
« Last Edit: January 23, 2020, 03:05:00 am by Maj. Bill Martin »

Offline Sighlass

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The correct ruling would be the government has no business in the process of education whatsoever. Stop taxing the hello out of folks to support a bloated secular indoctrination institution that breeds liberal unions. Let parents and churches/private donations (for those that can't afford it) foot the bill as intended. Government has only made a mess of things. 
Exodus 18:21 Furthermore, you shall select out of all the people able men who fear God, men of truth, those who hate dishonest gain; and you shall place these over them as leaders over ....

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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The correct ruling would be the government has no business in the process of education whatsoever. Stop taxing the hello out of folks to support a bloated secular indoctrination institution that breeds liberal unions. Let parents and churches/private donations (for those that can't afford it) foot the bill as intended. Government has only made a mess of things.

Well...this is kind of what that law did.  It gave a tax credit for people who made a donation for a school, but they got to decide whether to donate, which school got the money, etc..

Offline Smokin Joe

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Believe it or not, the topic of this thread is a case that will be argued before the US Supreme Court. Anyone want to try an on-topic response?

 :im waiting:
Sure. For the wording of the First Amendment to be violated, Congress would have to make a law respecting a particular religion. Congress didn't kick God out of the schools, the Court did.

I reckon lawyers could weasel out of that one.

IMHO, however, the State enforced absence of religion is a State mandated choice in and of itself. (Especially when Sharia and Islam are running roughshod over that concept).
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline sneakypete

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Sure. For the wording of the First Amendment to be violated, Congress would have to make a law respecting a particular religion. Congress didn't kick God out of the schools, the Court did.

@Smokin Joe

Damn shame there are no private religious schools,ain't it?

It's not about the fear of the religious that they are not going to be able to send their children to religious schools,it's about their fear that other American's WON'T send their children to these schools.

Boil it down to it's base,and it's all about political power for whatever your favorite superstition happens to be.
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline Smokin Joe

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@Smokin Joe

Damn shame there are no private religious schools,ain't it?

It's not about the fear of the religious that they are not going to be able to send their children to religious schools,it's about their fear that other American's WON'T send their children to these schools.

Boil it down to it's base,and it's all about political power for whatever your favorite superstition happens to be.
Just asking for equal time, not promoting one religion. If Sharia can be taught, if Islam can be taught, then Christianity should be represented along with Judaism, Hindu, Shinto, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, whatever, and let the kids pick if they so choose. You can even point out that there are people who believe everything is some sort of cosmic accident and when you die, game over. But at least level the playing field.

Right now, it isn't level at all.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline roamer_1

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Damn shame there are no private religious schools,ain't it?

No, what's a damn shame is that in order to send my kid to private school, I have to pay for public education anyway too. If the system wasn't rigged to indoctrinate children into the state approved religion, The allotment I am already paying for in public education would be handed to the private school instead, simultaneously denying the public system those funds. You know, something akin to competition.

Then the schools that teach best, and teach what the parents want taught would be free to ascend, and the schools that teach worst, and that teach indoctrination into communism and humanism would be free to fail, and be out of our hair.

Or at the very least, let me pay for the schooling, relieve me of the public tax, and let me go on my way unmolested.

Offline Hoodat

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Or at the very least, let me pay for the schooling, relieve me of the public tax, and let me go on my way unmolested.

Wish they would do that with social security too.
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Offline Hoodat

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Atheism has a monolopy on K-12 schools?

Since when?

Since Engel v. Vitale.  Atheism is the only religion allowed in public schools.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

-Ayn Rand-

Offline roamer_1

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Wish they would do that with social security too.

Yep.That which is not gobbled up by uncle nanny becomes familial wealth. What is being destroyed is the inter-generational promise of families.


Offline sneakypete

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Since Engel v. Vitale.  Atheism is the only religion allowed in public schools.

@Hoodat

WRONG! Atheism is a religion,and it is NOT taught in public schools.
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline Hoodat

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@Hoodat

WRONG! Atheism is a religion,and it is NOT taught in public schools.

I said 'allowed'.  Never said 'taught'.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

-Ayn Rand-

Offline sneakypete

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I said 'allowed'.  Never said 'taught'.

@Hoodat

In that case,religion is allowed in schools,also.

Or are you now going to claim there is a guard at the door that turns away any student that claims to be a member of your cult?
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline roamer_1

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I said 'allowed'.  Never said 'taught'.

Oh it most certainly is taught. Humanism is a form of Atheism... Evolution, sciences, history, health... all of it specifically concocted to counter one religion.

Offline roamer_1

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The occult '7 sacred sciences' ARE the 7 liberal arts.

What a coincidence.