Author Topic: Ukraine airliner crashes shortly after takeoff from Tehran just 3+ hours after the launch of missile  (Read 5506 times)

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Offline PeteS in CA

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The two missiles in the CBS News video clearly climb at two different angles to two different altitudes. The video doesn't show the timing between the two missile launches, but the different angles of climb and altitudes indicate there was significant time between the two launches. What the battery operators knew probably will never be known, but clearly the battery operators intended to bring down the plane.
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Offline Smokin Joe

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The two missiles in the CBS News video clearly climb at two different angles to two different altitudes. The video doesn't show the timing between the two missile launches, but the different angles of climb and altitudes indicate there was significant time between the two launches. What the battery operators knew probably will never be known, but clearly the battery operators intended to bring down the plane.
The time that has been reported between launches is 30 seconds.
Landing speed of a 737 is about 160 MPH, which allows for 1.3 miles of travel in 30 seconds at that speed, which is close to takeoff speed of 166 MPH. That does not account for positive or negative climb rate.

Maneuvering and loss of altitude may have affected the angle from the launcher to the plane as well.

That the second shot was delayed, aimed differently, at the same aircraft, indicates the intent was to bring the plane down.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline PeteS in CA

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This might be worthy of a thread of its own, but it relates to this deadly incident:

How digital sleuths unravelled the mystery of Iran's plane crash

Quote
At first, it seemed like an accident – engine failure was fingered as the cause – until the first video showing the plane seemingly on fire as it weaved to the ground surfaced. United States officials started to investigate, and a more complicated picture emerged. It appeared that the plane had been hit by a missile, corroborated by a second video that appears to show the moment the missile ploughs into the Boeing 737-800. While military and intelligence officials at governments around the world were conducting their inquiries in secret, a team of investigators were using open-source intelligence (OSINT) techniques to piece together the puzzle of flight PS752.
...
So how do they do it? “You can think of OSINT as a puzzle. To get the complete picture, you need to find the missing pieces and put everything together,” says Loránd Bodó, an OSINT analyst at Tech versus Terrorism, a campaign group. The team at Bellingcat and other open-source investigators pore over publicly available material. Thanks to our propensity to reach for our cameraphones at the sight of any newsworthy incident, video and photos are often available, posted to social media in the immediate aftermath of events. ...

OSINT investigators then utilise metadata, including EXIF data – which is automatically inserted into videos and photos, showing everything from the type of camera used to take the images to the precise latitude and longitude of where the taker was standing – to validify that the footage is legitimate. They’ll also try and identify who took the footage, and whether it’s practical for them to have been where they claim to have been at the time. However, for this instance, they couldn’t use EXIF data. “People would share photos and videos on Telegram which strip the metadata ...

Publicly available data such as Google Street View were used to locate where the video was taken, in what direction the person was facing, etc.. Geekasoid lifeforms in action!
If, as anti-Covid-vaxxers claim, https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2021/robert-f-kennedy-jr-said-the-covid-19-vaccine-is-the-deadliest-vaccine-ever-made-thats-not-true/ , https://gospelnewsnetwork.org/2021/11/23/covid-shots-are-the-deadliest-vaccines-in-medical-history/ , The Vaccine is deadly, where in the US have Pfizer and Moderna hidden the millions of bodies of those who died of "vaccine injury"? Is reality a Big Pharma Shill?

Millions now living should have died. Anti-Covid-Vaxxer ghouls hardest hit.

Offline PeteS in CA

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The time that has been reported between launches is 30 seconds.
Landing speed of a 737 is about 160 MPH, which allows for 1.3 miles of travel in 30 seconds at that speed, which is close to takeoff speed of 166 MPH. That does not account for positive or negative climb rate.

Maneuvering and loss of altitude may have affected the angle from the launcher to the plane as well.

That the second shot was delayed, aimed differently, at the same aircraft, indicates the intent was to bring the plane down.

Good info! I was just pointing out that the video could not have been creatively edited to show the same missile firing twice, as if it were two separate firings.
If, as anti-Covid-vaxxers claim, https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2021/robert-f-kennedy-jr-said-the-covid-19-vaccine-is-the-deadliest-vaccine-ever-made-thats-not-true/ , https://gospelnewsnetwork.org/2021/11/23/covid-shots-are-the-deadliest-vaccines-in-medical-history/ , The Vaccine is deadly, where in the US have Pfizer and Moderna hidden the millions of bodies of those who died of "vaccine injury"? Is reality a Big Pharma Shill?

Millions now living should have died. Anti-Covid-Vaxxer ghouls hardest hit.

Online Elderberry

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Iran Jet Disaster Setup: Was Electronic Warfare in Play?

Sign of the Times by Soraya Sepahpour-Ulrich & Finian Cunningham 1/15/2020

Questions arise about the improbable timing and circumstances of recording the precise moment when the plane was hit.

Subsequently, Iranian air-defense systems were on high alert for a possible counter-strike by US forces. Several reports indicate that the Iranian defense radars were detecting warnings of incoming enemy warplanes and cruise missiles on the morning of 8 January. It does seem odd why the Iranian authorities did not cancel all commercial flights out of Tehran during that period. Perhaps because civilian airliners can normally be differentiated by radar and other signals from military objects.

However, with the electronic warfare (EW) technology that the United States has developed in recent years it is entirely feasible for enemy military radars to be "spoofed" by phantom objects. One such EW developed by the Pentagon is Miniature Air-Launched Decoy (MALD) which can create deceptive signals on enemy radar systems of incoming warheads.

What we contend therefore is this: the Americans exploited a brink-of-war scenario in which they anticipated Iranian air-defense systems to be on a hair-trigger. Add to this tension an assault by electronic warfare on Iranian military radars in which it would be technically feasible to distort a civilian airliner's data as an offensive target. The Iranian military has claimed this was the nature of the shoot-down error. It seems plausible given the existing electronic warfare used by the Pentagon.

More: https://www.sott.net/article/427443-Iran-Jet-Disaster-Setup-Was-Electronic-Warfare-in-Play

Offline Smokin Joe

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This might be worthy of a thread of its own, but it relates to this deadly incident:

How digital sleuths unravelled the mystery of Iran's plane crash

Publicly available data such as Google Street View were used to locate where the video was taken, in what direction the person was facing, etc.. Geekasoid lifeforms in action!
Yeah. Now everyone in the neighborhood can be rounded up and shot.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

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Iran Jet Disaster Setup: Was Electronic Warfare in Play?

Sign of the Times by Soraya Sepahpour-Ulrich & Finian Cunningham 1/15/2020

Questions arise about the improbable timing and circumstances of recording the precise moment when the plane was hit.

Subsequently, Iranian air-defense systems were on high alert for a possible counter-strike by US forces. Several reports indicate that the Iranian defense radars were detecting warnings of incoming enemy warplanes and cruise missiles on the morning of 8 January. It does seem odd why the Iranian authorities did not cancel all commercial flights out of Tehran during that period. Perhaps because civilian airliners can normally be differentiated by radar and other signals from military objects.

However, with the electronic warfare (EW) technology that the United States has developed in recent years it is entirely feasible for enemy military radars to be "spoofed" by phantom objects. One such EW developed by the Pentagon is Miniature Air-Launched Decoy (MALD) which can create deceptive signals on enemy radar systems of incoming warheads.

What we contend therefore is this: the Americans exploited a brink-of-war scenario in which they anticipated Iranian air-defense systems to be on a hair-trigger. Add to this tension an assault by electronic warfare on Iranian military radars in which it would be technically feasible to distort a civilian airliner's data as an offensive target. The Iranian military has claimed this was the nature of the shoot-down error. It seems plausible given the existing electronic warfare used by the Pentagon.

More: https://www.sott.net/article/427443-Iran-Jet-Disaster-Setup-Was-Electronic-Warfare-in-Play
While I can't entirely discount such an idea (we've been spoofing radars since "window" in WWII), the Iranians know we can pretty much keep track of what they are up to.
The idea of drones or other aircraft in the vicinity to eliminate any launch locations as they fire is not completely out of the realm of possibility, but something I consider unlikely--mainly because no launch locations were eliminated.

I think this is just a case of nerves on edge, itchy trigger fingers, and a failure to ensure the safety of civilian air traffic.

Keep in mind, the Ukrainian airliner should have been climbing, originated from the airport, and was heading away. Not exactly the behaviour of a foreign military aircraft attacking. The plane should have had a transponder squawking in the commercial frequencies as ID/locator for the tower.

How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline DB

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Iran Jet Disaster Setup: Was Electronic Warfare in Play?

Sign of the Times by Soraya Sepahpour-Ulrich & Finian Cunningham 1/15/2020

Questions arise about the improbable timing and circumstances of recording the precise moment when the plane was hit.

Subsequently, Iranian air-defense systems were on high alert for a possible counter-strike by US forces. Several reports indicate that the Iranian defense radars were detecting warnings of incoming enemy warplanes and cruise missiles on the morning of 8 January. It does seem odd why the Iranian authorities did not cancel all commercial flights out of Tehran during that period. Perhaps because civilian airliners can normally be differentiated by radar and other signals from military objects.

However, with the electronic warfare (EW) technology that the United States has developed in recent years it is entirely feasible for enemy military radars to be "spoofed" by phantom objects. One such EW developed by the Pentagon is Miniature Air-Launched Decoy (MALD) which can create deceptive signals on enemy radar systems of incoming warheads.

What we contend therefore is this: the Americans exploited a brink-of-war scenario in which they anticipated Iranian air-defense systems to be on a hair-trigger. Add to this tension an assault by electronic warfare on Iranian military radars in which it would be technically feasible to distort a civilian airliner's data as an offensive target. The Iranian military has claimed this was the nature of the shoot-down error. It seems plausible given the existing electronic warfare used by the Pentagon.

More: https://www.sott.net/article/427443-Iran-Jet-Disaster-Setup-Was-Electronic-Warfare-in-Play

It sounds much more plausible that Iran jammed a wide range of radio communications frequencies on purpose not taking into account that they jammed the reception of the airplane's ID beacon by the antiaircraft battery so they didn't receive a commercial plane ID when it appeared on radar.

Unintended consequences.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2020, 08:36:04 pm by DB »

Offline PeteS in CA

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Whoever sott.net is, they seem eager to find a way to blame the US for the airliner being shot down. But they provide zero evidence that bridges the gap between their hypothetical "might" and their ASSumed "did".

Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
If, as anti-Covid-vaxxers claim, https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2021/robert-f-kennedy-jr-said-the-covid-19-vaccine-is-the-deadliest-vaccine-ever-made-thats-not-true/ , https://gospelnewsnetwork.org/2021/11/23/covid-shots-are-the-deadliest-vaccines-in-medical-history/ , The Vaccine is deadly, where in the US have Pfizer and Moderna hidden the millions of bodies of those who died of "vaccine injury"? Is reality a Big Pharma Shill?

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Offline TomSea

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Quote
Ukrainian Plane Tragedy Challenges Tehran's Narrative Of 1988 U.S. Shoot-Down Of Iranian Airliner

Iran’s unintentional downing of a Ukrainian passenger jet that killed 176 people, including many Iranians, has invoked memories of a similar tragedy: the 1988 U.S. shoot-down of an Iranian plane over the Strait of Hormuz that killed all 290 people on board, including 66 children.

For the past three decades, Iran’s clerical establishment has frequently used that disaster -- which came amid tensions between Tehran and Washington -- as a propaganda tool for what it calls American “state terrorism” and its disregard for human life while suggesting the U.S. Navy's shoot-down of Iran Air Flight 655 was intentional.

But in the wake of the January 8 downing of the Ukrainian airliner due to a “human mistake” by the Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps (IRGC), Tehran’s narrative about the 1988 air tragedy against the United States has been undermined, analysts say.

Read more at: https://www.rferl.org/a/ukrainian-plane-tragedy-challenges-tehran-s-narrative-on-1988-u-s-shoot-down-of-iranian-airliner/30383601.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Vincennes_(CG-49)

That shoot down was some story in itself....some history is unpleasant, I just try to move forward but I know someone who really gets animated when that topic comes up. Some really have studied it.

Offline TomSea

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A full investigation hopefully will determine any of these kinds of factors.

Good link by the way, good website, gets a more-or-less, pass from Media Bias Check, and yes, we know how we went through "Media Bias Check" I believe about 2 years ago, they have their own special interests too.

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/signs-of-the-times-sott/

Offline TomSea

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In context, it might take a long time to sue Iran, so Canada is doing this for families in need now. See quote below. It still doesn't seem like much imho... but maybe eventually charities can step in. It will surely, be difficult to sue, prevail and then, collect on Iran, additionally, that will be time consuming.
Quote
Justin Trudeau announces $25,000 each for families of Canadians killed in Iran plane crash

The jet operated by Ukraine International Airlines took off from Tehran for Kiev and minutes later disappeared from radar. Iran later admitted that the jetliner was 'accidentally' shot down.


Published: 18th January 2020

..

"I want to be clear: We expect Iran to compensate these families. But I have met them (the families). They can't wait weeks. They need support now," CNN quoted Trudeau as saying during a news conference in Ottawa.

Read more at: https://www.newindianexpress.com/world/2020/jan/18/justin-trudeau-announces-25000-each-for-families-of-canadians-killed-in-iran-plane-crash-2091264.html

Offline TomSea

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Bodies of Ukrainian Victims Returned Home as Iran Backtracks on Sending Flight Recorders
Sunday, 19 January, 2020 - 13:15

...

Meanwhile, the Iranian official leading the investigation into the accident appeared to backtrack Sunday on plans to send the flight recorders abroad for analysis, a day after saying they would be sent to Kiev, the Associated Press reported.

Hassan Rezaeifar was quoted by the state-run IRNA news agency as saying “the flight recorders from the Ukrainian Boeing are in Iranian hands and we have no plans to send them out.”

...

“But as of yet, we have made no decision.” Rezaeifar noted.

Read more at: https://aawsat.com/english/home/article/2090051/bodies-ukrainian-victims-returned-home-iran-backtracks-sending-flight-recorders

So,  this is extremely provocative.

Offline PeteS in CA

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There could be several things on the flight recorders that Iran doesn't want known:

* That the flight's commercial equivalent of IFF was engaged;

* The time between the two missile strikes;

* Communications between the flight crew and the airport and/or military.

IOW, I think the Iranians know the flight recorder will prove either that the Iranians knowingly shot down an airliner or that there was total non-communication between the airport and the military (and/or within the military).
If, as anti-Covid-vaxxers claim, https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2021/robert-f-kennedy-jr-said-the-covid-19-vaccine-is-the-deadliest-vaccine-ever-made-thats-not-true/ , https://gospelnewsnetwork.org/2021/11/23/covid-shots-are-the-deadliest-vaccines-in-medical-history/ , The Vaccine is deadly, where in the US have Pfizer and Moderna hidden the millions of bodies of those who died of "vaccine injury"? Is reality a Big Pharma Shill?

Millions now living should have died. Anti-Covid-Vaxxer ghouls hardest hit.

Offline Smokin Joe

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There could be several things on the flight recorders that Iran doesn't want known:

* That the flight's commercial equivalent of IFF was engaged;

* The time between the two missile strikes;

* Communications between the flight crew and the airport and/or military.

IOW, I think the Iranians know the flight recorder will prove either that the Iranians knowingly shot down an airliner or that there was total non-communication between the airport and the military (and/or within the military).
Almost all commercial flights are tracked by those transponders, even in the US. They identify the aircraft and give other data as well, which helps ATCs in the tower sort them out.
Surely, the transponder was engaged. Communications  and flight crew chatter should have been recorded, and the Flight data recorder would at least show the time of the first strike, and if not disabled, the second.

The Iranians know the data is damning, showing massive incompetence and/or negligence in the downing of the flight.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Online bigheadfred

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Almost all commercial flights are tracked by those transponders, even in the US. They identify the aircraft and give other data as well, which helps ATCs in the tower sort them out.
Surely, the transponder was engaged. Communications  and flight crew chatter should have been recorded, and the Flight data recorder would at least show the time of the first strike, and if not disabled, the second.

The Iranians know the data is damning, showing massive incompetence and/or negligence in the downing of the flight.

This is somewhat off-topic. I was reading aout the drone strike that killed Suleimani. An expert said they could bring that drone to the airport as a regular flight. Indistinguishable from any other plane. Then bring it in low and fast to make the strike. I've read that maybe there was some electronic hijinks with this commercial flight that could have caused it to be misidentified.
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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This is somewhat off-topic. I was reading aout the drone strike that killed Suleimani. An expert said they could bring that drone to the airport as a regular flight. Indistinguishable from any other plane. Then bring it in low and fast to make the strike. I've read that maybe there was some electronic hijinks with this commercial flight that could have caused it to be misidentified.

While I can see the value in disguising a military fight as civilian, I fail to see the utility of disguising a civilian flight as military.  :shrug:
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Online bigheadfred

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While I can see the value in disguising a military fight as civilian, I fail to see the utility of disguising a civilian flight as military.  :shrug:

Depends on the motive and who is putting on the disguise.
She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Offline DB

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Almost all commercial flights are tracked by those transponders, even in the US. They identify the aircraft and give other data as well, which helps ATCs in the tower sort them out.
Surely, the transponder was engaged. Communications  and flight crew chatter should have been recorded, and the Flight data recorder would at least show the time of the first strike, and if not disabled, the second.

The Iranians know the data is damning, showing massive incompetence and/or negligence in the downing of the flight.

Supposedly the Iranians were jamming radio comminications at the time. They could have inadvertantly jammed the flight's transponder from being received making the ID of the plane unavailable to the targetting system.

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Supposedly the Iranians were jamming radio communications at the time. They could have inadvertently jammed the flight's transponder from being received making the ID of the plane unavailable to the targeting system.


A very likely scenario.  If there's one thing we know about Persians and Arabs, it is they are fully capable of misusing or abusing their technology.  They are children who were given the tech, without having to develop it.
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Offline TomSea

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Very solemn in Ukraine in receiving the bodies of the 11 dead Ukrainians:
Quote

Mourners arrive for a farewell ceremony in Kyiv on January 19 for the Ukrainian victims of Flight PS572, which was shot down over Tehran last week, killing all on board.


Error 404 (Not Found)!!1

- More at: Radio Free Europe

Quote
Kyiv solemnly meets bodies of Ukrainians from PS752: Photos

Source : 112 Ukraine
The plane was met by top officials and hundreds of ordinary Ukrainians, including relatives of the victims
17:43, 19 January 2020


Official website of the President of Ukraine

See more at: Channel 112 Ukraine
« Last Edit: January 20, 2020, 03:27:45 am by TomSea »

Offline Smokin Joe

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Supposedly the Iranians were jamming radio comminications at the time. They could have inadvertantly jammed the flight's transponder from being received making the ID of the plane unavailable to the targetting system.
I'm not saying the Iranians shot down the airliner with malicious intent. Even Tehran knows this would be a worldwide PR disaster, and they are fighting that now.

Not halting civilian flights is the point where the real negligence occurred, especially if they were using a broad spectrum jammer which would mask transponder data from a civilian flight.

It is, however, a sad ending to a multitude, and TFUTEAFU, as military operations go.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline TomSea

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Quote
Iran releases investigation report on Ukrainian plane crash

...

The retrieved flight data recorder and the cockpit voice recorder are “some of the most advanced equipment of their kind in the world” and Iran lacks the facilities to decode them. French and U.S. accident investigation agencies have refused to send necessary equipment to Iran for decoding the black boxes.

As reported, a Ukraine International Airlines plane (Flight PS752) heading from Tehran to Kyiv crashed shortly after taking off from the Imam Khomeini International Airport at about 06:00 Tehran time (04:30 Kyiv time) on Wednesday, January 8.

More at: https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-polytics/2859737-iran-releases-investigation-report-on-ukrainian-plane-crash.html

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New video shows that 2 missiles struck the Ukrainian plane that crashed in Iran
David Slotnick
Jan 14, 2020, 2:53 PM


    A new video shows that two Iranian missiles struck Ukraine International Airlines Flight 752 before it crashed near Tehran last week.

    The video, which was verified by The New York Times, was uploaded to YouTube by an Iranian user early on Tuesday.

    The video shows that the plane continued flying, while engulfed in flames, for a short time after the missiles hit.

https://www.businessinsider.com/video-ukraine-iran-plane-crash-two-missiles-2020-1

Offline PeteS in CA

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New video shows that 2 missiles struck the Ukrainian plane that crashed in Iran
David Slotnick
Jan 14, 2020, 2:53 PM


    A new video shows that two Iranian missiles struck Ukraine International Airlines Flight 752 before it crashed near Tehran last week.

    The video, which was verified by The New York Times, was uploaded to YouTube by an Iranian user early on Tuesday.

    The video shows that the plane continued flying, while engulfed in flames, for a short time after the missiles hit.

https://www.businessinsider.com/video-ukraine-iran-plane-crash-two-missiles-2020-1

This post from a week ago, http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,388082.msg2128600.html#msg2128600 , links the original NYT article.
If, as anti-Covid-vaxxers claim, https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2021/robert-f-kennedy-jr-said-the-covid-19-vaccine-is-the-deadliest-vaccine-ever-made-thats-not-true/ , https://gospelnewsnetwork.org/2021/11/23/covid-shots-are-the-deadliest-vaccines-in-medical-history/ , The Vaccine is deadly, where in the US have Pfizer and Moderna hidden the millions of bodies of those who died of "vaccine injury"? Is reality a Big Pharma Shill?

Millions now living should have died. Anti-Covid-Vaxxer ghouls hardest hit.