Author Topic: Can a middle-class budget buy a new car?  (Read 387 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online jmyrlefuller

  • J. Myrle Fuller
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 16,923
  • Gender: Male
    • Fullervision
Can a middle-class budget buy a new car?
« on: November 22, 2019, 02:16:05 PM »
https://www.cbsnews.com/video/middle-class-families-getting-priced-out-of-new-american-cars/

Americans were paying about 38% more for a new car or truck over the summer than they were just 10 years ago. The average transaction price for some popular vehicles is up nearly 50, 60 or even 70%. Many drivers can’t afford it. Tony Dokoupil reports.

November 22, 2019
The enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend. It may just be that I have two enemies.

Offline berdie

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,861
Re: Can a middle-class budget buy a new car?
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2019, 03:36:58 PM »
Well, you can buy a car. Yes, it's always been a big expense in proportion to salary. That isn't new.

Maybe, just maybe, you won't have a BMW or a Vette. But a mode of transportation one can have.

I say this as a person that carried transmission fluid and oil for my first car in my trunk.

Offline GtHawk

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 5,307
  • Gender: Male
  • Wake me up when the world is sane again!
Re: Can a middle-class budget buy a new car?
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2019, 03:42:08 PM »
I don't think they still make Yugos so maybe not. With all the new cars I see on the road I'm willing to bet it's lease, lease, lease.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2019, 12:08:04 AM by GtHawk »

Online libertybele

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 20,680
  • Gender: Female
Re: Can a middle-class budget buy a new car?
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2019, 05:36:55 PM »
I think they still make Yugos so maybe not. With all the new cars I see on the road I'm willing to bet it's lease, lease, lease.

According to Suze Orman, leasing is the worst thing that you can do.  Buying a reliable used car is best.  I drove my last car for over 10 years with 103,000+ miles on it.  I just traded it in at the end of September and they gave me $4,000 for my clunker and I wound up getting a decent deal.  Hopefully I'll be driving this one for the next 10 years or maybe longer.
"I believe in the United States of America as a Government of the people, by the people, for the people; whose just powers are derived from the consent of the governed; a democracy in a republic; a sovereign nation of many sovereign states; a perfect union one and inseparable; established upon those principles of freedom, equality, justice and humanity for which American patriots sacrificed their lives and fortunes. I therefore believe it is my duty to my country to love it; to support its Constitution; to obey it laws; to respect its flag; and to defend it against all enemies." -William Page

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 11,094
  • Sept 11 2001 or March 6 1836
Re: Can a middle-class budget buy a new car?
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2019, 06:45:11 PM »
According to Suze Orman, leasing is the worst thing that you can do.  Buying a reliable used car is best.  I drove my last car for over 10 years with 103,000+ miles on it.  I just traded it in at the end of September and they gave me $4,000 for my clunker and I wound up getting a decent deal.  Hopefully I'll be driving this one for the next 10 years or maybe longer.
I asked a car dealer salesman I know what is the most important thing on his ability to sell a car from his dealership.

He said it is all about monthly payments.  Hence the long term loans (nd leasing}.

So the article misleads in the ability of someone to make the purchase.

People do not think about paying cash for a car.

And why does not CBS highlight the many governmental mandates placed on cars as well as continued generous union contracts that escalate the costs of cars?
Yearning to stay free takes place in many ways at many different times, whether by withstanding planes or bayonets

Online sneakypete

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 18,328
Re: Can a middle-class budget buy a new car?
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2019, 07:13:17 PM »
I think they still make Yugos so maybe not. With all the new cars I see on the road I'm willing to bet it's lease, lease, lease.

@GtHawk

Yeah,but if you buy a Yugo you then have to buy a tow truck or a rollback to haul it around,so you end up spending even more.

The last truck I bought new was a 2016 Silverado Work Truck crew cab 4x4 with base everything except the 5.3 V-8. Base ac,base fm radio,no floor mats,no power mirrors,no remote start,etc,etc,etc. It did have the towing package with 3:73 limited slip gears.

IIRC,it cost me 33 grand,which was significantly below sticker price,but STILL 33 grand. Yeah,I can afford it. I could have afforded a much more expensive truck because my house is paid for and I don't have mortgage payments hanging over me. Still,when you consider I think I paid 2400 bucks for the first new truck I bought,even though it didn't have ac or power anything,that was a lot of money back them. Maybe even more "real" money than 33 grand today.

Still,that number scares me even though I can afford it now better than I could afford the 2400 in 1970.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
 Twitter is for Twits

Online sneakypete

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 18,328
Re: Can a middle-class budget buy a new car?
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2019, 07:19:02 PM »
According to Suze Orman, leasing is the worst thing that you can do.  Buying a reliable used car is best.  I drove my last car for over 10 years with 103,000+ miles on it.  I just traded it in at the end of September and they gave me $4,000 for my clunker and I wound up getting a decent deal.  Hopefully I'll be driving this one for the next 10 years or maybe longer.

@libertybele

Buying off-lease cars 2 to 3 years old seems to be the "Sweet spot" between "new" and "used". They don't have that many miles on them,and the discount from new is pretty steep. Plus,with modern manufacturing methods and materials,and modern oil and other lubs,"high mileage" doesn't mean what it used to mean. It used to mean you got rid of a car with 100 k on it because it was almost worn out,and today 100 k miles means it is broken in. Most go 300k miles or more before any major repairs are needed.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
 Twitter is for Twits

Online roamer_1

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 19,080
Re: Can a middle-class budget buy a new car?
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2019, 07:26:12 PM »
IIRC,it cost me 33 grand,which was significantly below sticker price,but STILL 33 grand. Yeah,I can afford it. I could have afforded a much more expensive truck because my house is paid for and I don't have mortgage payments hanging over me. Still,when you consider I think I paid 2400 bucks for the first new truck I bought,even though it didn't have ac or power anything,that was a lot of money back them. Maybe even more "real" money than 33 grand today.

Still,that number scares me even though I can afford it now better than I could afford the 2400 in 1970.

@sneakypete
I am fixin to restore an old Jeep CJ-5 I found this fall, and bought for 400 bucks. Now, to be fair, I already rebuilt this particular Jeep back in the day, so a lot of the stuff I would have to do is already done - The over-axle lift is already there, and it had all its innards turned Cheyy back in the day.

But it is most certainly all the way wore out, with 20 years on it since then. But I will replace the body parts it needs, sandblast the rest, replace all the brakes including rotors and lines, replaces all the wiring, Rebuild the 350, m22 rockcrusher, and 208/205 doubler t-case, paint, gauges, radiator, new tires all around (big ones), and upholstery (or replacement), rebuild the winch, and I really will not hit $10k. If I can do it right, I doubt I will hit $5k.

And that is a whole lot more Jeep than you can get new.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2019, 07:29:54 PM by roamer_1 »

Online libertybele

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 20,680
  • Gender: Female
Re: Can a middle-class budget buy a new car?
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2019, 07:45:17 PM »
@GtHawk

Yeah,but if you buy a Yugo you then have to buy a tow truck or a rollback to haul it around,so you end up spending even more.

The last truck I bought new was a 2016 Silverado Work Truck crew cab 4x4 with base everything except the 5.3 V-8. Base ac,base fm radio,no floor mats,no power mirrors,no remote start,etc,etc,etc. It did have the towing package with 3:73 limited slip gears.

IIRC,it cost me 33 grand,which was significantly below sticker price,but STILL 33 grand. Yeah,I can afford it. I could have afforded a much more expensive truck because my house is paid for and I don't have mortgage payments hanging over me. Still,when you consider I think I paid 2400 bucks for the first new truck I bought,even though it didn't have ac or power anything,that was a lot of money back them. Maybe even more "real" money than 33 grand today.

Still,that number scares me even though I can afford it now better than I could afford the 2400 in 1970.

Well, to put things in perspective, back in the 80's we purchased our first house for around $40,000.00.  It was a fixer upper and we sold it and doubled our money and moved.  Consequently we had a sizeable amount for a down payment and bought another house.  We had always bought older vehicles and paid cash.  I was absolutely astounded when we decided to by a newer vehicle and took at a loan.  The car loan was almost as much as our mortgage! 

Usually you can make money in the long run on property.  Cars on the other hand are a waste of money. They offer no return on your money and you have to spend even more money for rising insurance premiums, repairs and gas.   **nononono*
"I believe in the United States of America as a Government of the people, by the people, for the people; whose just powers are derived from the consent of the governed; a democracy in a republic; a sovereign nation of many sovereign states; a perfect union one and inseparable; established upon those principles of freedom, equality, justice and humanity for which American patriots sacrificed their lives and fortunes. I therefore believe it is my duty to my country to love it; to support its Constitution; to obey it laws; to respect its flag; and to defend it against all enemies." -William Page

Online libertybele

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 20,680
  • Gender: Female
Re: Can a middle-class budget buy a new car?
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2019, 07:49:10 PM »
@sneakypete
I am fixin to restore an old Jeep CJ-5 I found this fall, and bought for 400 bucks. Now, to be fair, I already rebuilt this particular Jeep back in the day, so a lot of the stuff I would have to do is already done - The over-axle lift is already there, and it had all its innards turned Cheyy back in the day.

But it is most certainly all the way wore out, with 20 years on it since then. But I will replace the body parts it needs, sandblast the rest, replace all the brakes including rotors and lines, replaces all the wiring, Rebuild the 350, m22 rockcrusher, and 208/205 doubler t-case, paint, gauges, radiator, new tires all around (big ones), and upholstery (or replacement), rebuild the winch, and I really will not hit $10k. If I can do it right, I doubt I will hit $5k.

And that is a whole lot more Jeep than you can get new.

You are lucky you have the skills to do so.  I used to be able to change the oil on my car and fix a flat tire.  That was about it.  Most I doubt would be able to rebuild a vehicle.
"I believe in the United States of America as a Government of the people, by the people, for the people; whose just powers are derived from the consent of the governed; a democracy in a republic; a sovereign nation of many sovereign states; a perfect union one and inseparable; established upon those principles of freedom, equality, justice and humanity for which American patriots sacrificed their lives and fortunes. I therefore believe it is my duty to my country to love it; to support its Constitution; to obey it laws; to respect its flag; and to defend it against all enemies." -William Page

Online sneakypete

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 18,328
Re: Can a middle-class budget buy a new car?
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2019, 07:50:39 PM »
@sneakypete
I am fixin to restore an old Jeep CJ-5 I found this fall, and bought for 400 bucks. Now, to be fair, I already rebuilt this particular Jeep back in the day, so a lot of the stuff I would have to do is already done - The over-axle lift is already there, and it had all its innards turned Cheyy back in the day.

But it is most certainly all the way wore out, with 20 years on it since then. But I will replace the body parts it needs, sandblast the rest, replace all the brakes including rotors and lines, replaces all the wiring, Rebuild the 350, m22 rockcrusher, and 208/205 doubler t-case, paint, gauges, radiator, new tires all around (big ones), and upholstery (or replacement), rebuild the winch, and I really will not hit $10k. If I can do it right, I doubt I will hit $5k.

And that is a while lot more Jeep than you can get new.

Yeah,but try to do it if you have to rent a garage space and buy all the tools needed. I pretty much have it all,including a car rotisserie,plasma cutter,etc,etc,etc,plus a 1800 sq ft workshop with ac,heat,full bath,wi-fi,hd tv,etc,etc,etc,but I could have bought several running and driving cars for what I spent on tools and putting the shop up.

I am not the type that can just retire. I need something to do or I start getting cranky.

BTW,just found and bought a set of NOS cast iron headers for the 51 DeSoto flat 6 I am putting in my 33 Dodge 4dr,and a seat of NOS cast iron headers for the 230 flat 6 engine in my 42 Dodge business couple. Already have finned aluminum high compression heads for them,and 3x1 intakes with glass-bowl Holley 1 brl carbs for them. IF I can ever get over the chemo brain,I should be driving the 33 next summer.


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
 Twitter is for Twits

Online roamer_1

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 19,080
Re: Can a middle-class budget buy a new car?
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2019, 08:31:00 PM »
You are lucky you have the skills to do so.  I used to be able to change the oil on my car and fix a flat tire.  That was about it.  Most I doubt would be able to rebuild a vehicle.

I'm a redneck boy... Prerequisite to that is a porch, and a man cave full of tools. Give me that and a glass gallon jug for making sweet tea, and I'll be fine.

 :beer:

I can't wait for this particular project... It will be pretty (Hugger orange) and sitting high on fatties. Just the ticket for beating around in the mountains. So I am figuring to keep it.

Online roamer_1

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 19,080
Re: Can a middle-class budget buy a new car?
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2019, 08:54:23 PM »
Yeah,but try to do it if you have to rent a garage space and buy all the tools needed. I pretty much have it all,including a car rotisserie,plasma cutter,etc,etc,etc,plus a 1800 sq ft workshop with ac,heat,full bath,wi-fi,hd tv,etc,etc,etc,but I could have bought several running and driving cars for what I spent on tools and putting the shop up.


@sneakypete
I know. I used to have 2500 ft2, but that went away with the illness, business crash, and divorce. All my crap is compressed into a 12x18 shed right now - but it's a nice shed. I can do quite a bit, though I have to quick-change it out for different functions... Still, I would be better off in small engine and smalls.... Another couple years in the computer lab should pay me off, and then I will have the fun tickets to put in something proper... If I don't move out to the sticks, which will change everything.

So for now, that dang ol jeep is going to come apart laying in a snowbank. Ain't the first time, and won't be the last, I reckon. It ain't all that bad. I have air, so once it is rattled apart, I can bring components inside the shed and fix em in the heat. I can still bore and line-bore, and I can get at the flycutter and the lathe... but I will have to do the heads on the Kwik-way, as the Sioux is flat buried.  I can get by... 

But I see all that different than you - Having them tools has paid for itself and then some, time and time again, all the way along. I don't even understand how a man can get by without that knowlege and tools... If I own it, I know how to fix it. And I always have. And if I don't own it, I can probably build it, and if I do, it will be better than what I can do buying it... A car trailer is high on my list... Probably come summer.

Love the car! my boy has a 40 chev sedan... He likes restoration. I am more into custom and hot rod. Except it has been a long time since I built a car. I stay pretty much in 4x4 and tractor.

If I ever run into another 65 Chevelle, or a 69 Camino, that would surely change.

 :beer:



Online sneakypete

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 18,328
Re: Can a middle-class budget buy a new car?
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2019, 09:38:41 PM »
@sneakypete
 

 
Love the car! my boy has a 40 chev sedan... He likes restoration. I am more into custom and hot rod. Except it has been a long time since I built a car. I stay pretty much in 4x4 and tractor.

 
 :beer:

I grew up loving hot rods,and even have an original 32 Ford 5 window coupe that was a  hot rod back in the late 40's that is almost done. Not going to be able to keep it,though. Steel 32 Ford coupes are worth too much money for me to keep one. I bought this one several years ago that was taken apart,and had a chassis that was twisted,cracked,bent,and "boxed" with body plastic. I got it to the condition you see in the photos and was maybe 2 weeks of work away from being able to drive it when I first started getting sick,so it has just sat. The engine with 6 carbs you see in it is a junker 283 I pulled out of the woods to use as a dummy to build motor mounts,trans mounts,radiator mounts,and the headers you see on it. The real engine is the red one on the test stand. A 69 350 dummied up to look like a 283 that has a short block that was assembled and balanced by a friend that works at a NASCAR speed shop,10 to 1 flattop pistons,a 7,000 rpm cam,roller rockers,Dart 2 heads,and a dual quad  Edelbrock intake and Pete Jackson gear drive. Should be plenty of power for a 2,000 lb car. I plan on driving it for a month or two and having a little fun,and then putting it up for sale and using the money on other projects,like my 33 Plymouth coupe with the 6 carb DeSoto  hemi and push-button 727.

BTW,you can see a side shot of my 33 Dodge 4dr in one of the photos,and the rear of my 38 Ford tudor "humpback" sedan in the other.

« Last Edit: November 22, 2019, 09:40:18 PM by sneakypete »
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
 Twitter is for Twits

Online Elderberry

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 8,961
Re: Can a middle-class budget buy a new car?
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2019, 10:40:21 PM »
@sneakypete
I am fixin to restore an old Jeep CJ-5 I found this fall, and bought for 400 bucks. Now, to be fair, I already rebuilt this particular Jeep back in the day, so a lot of the stuff I would have to do is already done - The over-axle lift is already there, and it had all its innards turned Cheyy back in the day.

But it is most certainly all the way wore out, with 20 years on it since then. But I will replace the body parts it needs, sandblast the rest, replace all the brakes including rotors and lines, replaces all the wiring, Rebuild the 350, m22 rockcrusher, and 208/205 doubler t-case, paint, gauges, radiator, new tires all around (big ones), and upholstery (or replacement), rebuild the winch, and I really will not hit $10k. If I can do it right, I doubt I will hit $5k.

And that is a whole lot more Jeep than you can get new.

400 bucks is a good deal! I picked my CJ-3B up 35 yrs ago for 300 bucks back then. It had set up in a co-worker's back yard for 10 yrs before I got it. I had told him I needed something to drag my jon boat up and down the river bank and he told me about it. It had a froze up 283 when I got it, so it was no sweat dropping a 350 in it. All the rest is stock, except I got tired of rebuilding the steering box, so I dropped a Saginaw PS box in it. That interfered with the pto shaft for the winch, so I moved it to the bed. I've mostly used it as a mobile winch. I can't number all the trees I've pulled out with it. I set it up for dual fuel using forklift tanks. As long as I have a hot battery it'll always start. It was my daily driver back in the Desert Storm days. I got a big kick outta pulling up to the troops heading out with it.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2019, 10:49:52 PM by Elderberry »
He who makes an attempt to enslave me, thereby puts himself into a state of war with me.

Online roamer_1

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 19,080
Re: Can a middle-class budget buy a new car?
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2019, 11:32:42 PM »
I grew up loving hot rods,and even have an original 32 Ford 5 window coupe that was a  hot rod back in the late 40's that is almost done.

@sneakypete
LOVE me a deuce coupe! You could not pry that ol girl outta my hands if you tried.
EXCEPT, I am gonna piss off about half the hot rodders out there, and declare they need big oversized fenders in the back and running boards wide enough to take those fenders, fading to dang near nothing in the front.

They look like a million bucks with that big sexy fat a$$. a little bit of chop, and an open front end. I get the old-schoolers wanting the original rod look... But the rat rodders have made it about standard nowadays to leave the fenders off, and that's a sin to me... Just... Disappointing. She could look SO FINE.

Good on ya!
 888high58888

Online sneakypete

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 18,328
Re: Can a middle-class budget buy a new car?
« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2019, 12:02:39 AM »
@sneakypete
LOVE me a deuce coupe! You could not pry that ol girl outta my hands if you tried.
EXCEPT, I am gonna piss off about half the hot rodders out there, and declare they need big oversized fenders in the back and running boards wide enough to take those fenders, fading to dang near nothing in the front.

They look like a million bucks with that big sexy fat a$$. a little bit of chop, and an open front end. I get the old-schoolers wanting the original rod look... But the rat rodders have made it about standard nowadays to leave the fenders off, and that's a sin to me... Just... Disappointing. She could look SO FINE.

Good on ya!
 888high58888

@roamer_1

That's odd. I grew up in the early 50's,and there were 1 Model A and two deuce coups within 2 blocks of me,and they were ALL channeled and had no fenders. One had a Caddy engine with 6 carbs,one had a Chrysler hemi with 6 carbs,and the other had a 324 Olds with 6 carbs. This was on the east coast.

If you like full-fendered coupes,there ain't much prettier than the 33 Plymouth and Dodge coupes. This one is one of my keepers. It's getting a 6 carb DeSoto hemi,push button 727, and 8-3/4 Mopar rear. Nothing in the car will be newer than 1956,and everything will be Mopar. BTW,the top is NOT chopped. That's the way they left the factory.

BTW,that is the rear of my 42 Dodge business coupe in the background.

And if you like jacked up 4x4's,you should like my 37 Dodge 1 ton. It's sitting on a 72 Ford F-250 4X4 Chassis and has a modified 390 in it with a granny-gear 4 speed truck transmission and 4:11 gears. Torque is no problem.

« Last Edit: November 23, 2019, 12:12:47 AM by sneakypete »
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
 Twitter is for Twits

Online roamer_1

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 19,080
Re: Can a middle-class budget buy a new car?
« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2019, 12:46:23 AM »
400 bucks is a good deal! I picked my CJ-3B up 35 yrs ago for 300 bucks back then. It had set up in a co-worker's back yard for 10 yrs before I got it. I had told him I needed something to drag my jon boat up and down the river bank and he told me about it. It had a froze up 283 when I got it, so it was no sweat dropping a 350 in it. All the rest is stock, except I got tired of rebuilding the steering box, so I dropped a Saginaw PS box in it. That interfered with the pto shaft for the winch, so I moved it to the bed. I've mostly used it as a mobile winch. I can't number all the trees I've pulled out with it. I set it up for dual fuel using forklift tanks. As long as I have a hot battery it'll always start. It was my daily driver back in the Desert Storm days. I got a big kick outta pulling up to the troops heading out with it.

They're still around here cheap if they need the work. The thing with this one is that I did it all them years ago... You think your work is bulletproof when you do it... And it was! But seeing the old girl reduced to a pile of crap out behind the shed just broke my heart. I almost didn't recognize it. In fact, I really didn't until I saw the fabrication around the winch and knew it was mine.

Somehow I have never seen one I done all wore out.  Made it through 4 owners, and it's still the same motor I threw in there way back when... Said it still ran when it was parked there somewhat over 5 years ago, but she was huffin bad.

So to me it is nearly a matter of honor to bring her back

I really miss pto driven winches... It is too nice being able to move that electric, so that's how I go...

Online Elderberry

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 8,961
Re: Can a middle-class budget buy a new car?
« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2019, 08:28:15 AM »
I really miss pto driven winches... It is too nice being able to move that electric, so that's how I go...

I was able without too much grief to reverse the output shaft on the pto adapter to run the shaft back under the bed. Then it was simple to run a chain up to the winch. If I come across another pto winch I'd like to mount one in the bed of my 56 3/4T. I already have a set of gin poles for it I can pin in an out.
He who makes an attempt to enslave me, thereby puts himself into a state of war with me.

Online roamer_1

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 19,080
Re: Can a middle-class budget buy a new car?
« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2019, 02:46:41 PM »
I was able without too much grief to reverse the output shaft on the pto adapter to run the shaft back under the bed. Then it was simple to run a chain up to the winch. If I come across another pto winch I'd like to mount one in the bed of my 56 3/4T. I already have a set of gin poles for it I can pin in an out.

I have welding cable run from front to back, and my winch sits in a receiver. Also can be mounted on the headache rack, or low in the bed,  or plugged into the trailer, or plugged into its 'sled', which turns it portable with a 3hp gas motor, batt, and alt, for draggin sticks out of the woods. I just can't do that with a PTO. Do miss the PTO though. Raw power, that.

Gin Poles... There's one of those things you always make do without, but always wish you had. That's going on my short list.  :beer:



Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf