Target Workers Get a Predictable Rude Awakening After Company Implements Minimum Wage Increase

[OfTheCross]

You contradict yourself. You are saying these things are cheap but people can't afford them because they aren't paid enough...

I'm saying that with the wage increase they'd be affordable.

They're cheap enough that it's probably better to do it that way than subsidize everyone with SNAP and tax credits

[roamer_1]

I'm saying that with the wage increase they'd be affordable.

No, that is not how it works.
Wage increase forces product increase.
Value is separate from the actual dollar.
Money is just a way of keeping score.

[roamer_1]

Labor is a percentage of cost.
Increase the cost of labor, and general cost will necessarily increase.
Dictating a price for labor above it's value simply raises the cost of production above it's value, raising the cost of living. You are chasing your tail, because what happens next is government assistance to cover the cost of living, and more increase wage dictated.

Inevitably that is an exponential spiral that also inevitably ends with government dictating a low cost of goods (instant full on socialism).  With no incentive to work hard for the laborer, and no incentive to profit well for the entrepreneur, the whole thing collapses into communism, which will predictably collapse in a single generation.

Them that do not know history are doomed to repeat it. 

[Smokin Joe]

Got a nephew who was laid off.  After a couple of months, I asked him when he was going to begin looking for another job.

His answer was when his unemployment ran out.

That is a lazy bum.

Got laid off in '82 (oil price crash). Spent a year looking for work, had one nibble, but it paid less than my (then) nontaxable unemployment check, and I didn't have to buy gas to get to work. It also paid so much less than my former pay I didn't have to accept the offer, by law, and could still draw unemployment.
What brought in the most money to live on?
I still found plenty to do, in between filling out applications and knocking on doors...

[OfTheCross]

Labor is a percentage of cost.
Increase the cost of labor, and general cost will necessarily increase.
Dictating a price for labor above it's value simply raises the cost of production above it's value, raising the cost of living. You are chasing your tail, because what happens next is government assistance to cover the cost of living, and more increase wage dictated.

Inevitably that is an exponential spiral that also inevitably ends with government dictating a low cost of goods (instant full on socialism).  With no incentive to work hard for the laborer, and no incentive to profit well for the entrepreneur, the whole thing collapses into communism, which will predictably collapse in a single generation.

Them that do not know history are doomed to repeat it.

The cost of labor hasn't kept up with production. We're working more, producing more, and making less money.

[sneakypete]

What if we support a living wage and get rid of most government assistance?

@OfTheCross

Interesting theory,but like everything else that flies in the face of human nature,it will never work because there are ALWAYS people willing to live right on the edge of starvation and homelessness as long as they don't have to work. They will lie,they will steal,they will even sometimes purposely injure themselves in order to get paid for sleeping in. The only thing they WON'T do is go to work.

IMHO,the ONLY practical solution to this is to DEMAND that churches and other charities spend a MINIMUM of 75 percent (more would be betta) of the income they get to provide food,clothing,medical care,and temporary housing to the indigent. I don't see this happening,though. People in the "charity biz" tend to see the money that comes in as THEIR money,and they want to use it to build their empire on. As a result,the various preachers,priests,shamans,and other witch doctors will shriek in horror and demand any congressman that votes to do that be thrown out of office.

No one organization is as guilty of this as the Catholic Church. Those bastards give money,food,clothing,and shelter to a lot (most) of the illegals entering the country because they KNOW the illegals from the Catholic Countries to the south of us will donate a minimum of 10 percent of their welfare money to the Catholic Church,and 100 percent of their votes to whoever their local Priest tells them to vote for.

You have to squint and look really hard to tell the difference between organized crime and organized religion. Both want you to kiss their rings.

Not that the "lesser" religions are any better. The fact that they take in less only means they are less successful as shearing the sheep.

[sneakypete]

You contradict yourself. You are saying these things are cheap but people can't afford them because they aren't paid enough...

@DB

Therein lies the problem. We ALL have different definitions,depending on how and where we grew up,where we have worked,and how much it costs us to live our normal lives today. There are places you can buy a house and small lot for 50k,or even less. There are also other places where 50k isn't even a down payment for a small apartment.

"Cheap" and "expensive" are relative words.

I remember being stunned while watching "the price is right" on teebee back in the 60's,and one woman who seemed to be in her early 30's guessed the price of a new Thunderbird to be "50 THOUSAND DOLLARS!" at the showcase. I almost lost my breath when it occurred to me she actually meant it. At MOST,a fully-equipped T-Bird back then was maybe 6 grand. This wasn't a stupid woman,either. Dressed nicely,and was well-spoken and seemed to be bright.

Right away I figured out she was a Trust Fund Child and had no idea what anything cost. Later on I figured out she might have been from somewhere like Manhattan,where most people live in apartments and take taxi's or buses to work or play because it's cheaper and more practical than owning a car. People like Bawa Walters,who has never driven a car in her life if you eliminate the Texaco commercial she was in back in the 60's,that show this "news woman" telling everyone about how she would never consider using any other gas than Texaco in her convertible,and then putting the car in gear and seeming to drive away. She later confessed she didn't even know how to put the car into gear until she was shown,and that she only drove a few feet and then stopped. Hey! If you can't trust a woman like that to tell you the truth in the news,who CAN you trust?

Good thing she had "Uncle Walter" sitting in the CBS News "command chair",ain't it? The SOB that lied about Tet of 68 on-air,and KNEW he was lying,but lied to try to prevent a Republican President from looking like he had a victory against the North Vietnamese after nothing but failure after failure by the Kennedy Klan.

I still refuse to watch CBS News.

[thackney]

BUT, I recently heard (possibly on C-Span) that, that minimum wage earners in 1968 could support family of three above poverty line.

Go back to the standard of living for 1968, including what is spent on phones, TV, cars, etc.

[sneakypete]

Go back to the standard of living for 1968, including what is spent on phones, TV, cars, etc.

@thackney

Not to mention rent or house payment. I was living in Virginia Beach,Va in 1971 or so,and brand new 2 or 3br houses with carports were selling for 18 grand,with interest rates below 4 percent,and no down if you had a VA loan.

You could buy a new car or pu truck for 1500 bucks,and gas was from 18 to 25 cents per gallon.

[roamer_1]

The cost of labor hasn't kept up with production. We're working more, producing more, and making less money.

@OfTheCross
First of all, nonsense. Very few people work 60-80 hrs a week, Heck, most folks hardly work 40 hrs. The work ethic this country was imbued with is nearly gone.
As far as labor not keeping up with production, the two do not correlate (are not tied).

[sneakypete]

@OfTheCross
First of all, nonsense. Very few people work 60-80 hrs a week, Heck, most folks hardly work 40 hrs. The work ethic this country was imbued with is nearly gone.
As far as labor not keeping up with production, the two do not correlate (are not tied).

@roamer_1

I don't think I turned down a single hour my entire work history. A 50 hour week was a short week for me. The first time I had a job with paid vacation,I was forced to take two weeks or lose it,so I did. By the end of the first week I caught myself looking at part time help wanted ads in the paper so I would have something to do. Never took over a week at a time after that.

After I was forced into medical retirement,I had a 1800 sq ft workshop put up,and filled it with tools and antique cars and parts so I would have something to when I feel good enough to do something.

I miss work like a junkie misses a fix.

[Cyber Liberty]

I'm saying that with the wage increase they'd be affordable.

Incredible ignorance on parade.  Not one drop of understanding that forcing wages up forces the prices of the goods produced up as well, leaving the unskilled worker no better off at all. 

I marvel at your ability to form words.

[roamer_1]

I don't think I turned down a single hour my entire work history. A 50 hour week was a short week for me. The first time I had a job with paid vacation,I was forced to take two weeks or lose it,so I did. By the end of the first week I caught myself looking at part time help wanted ads in the paper so I would have something to do. Never took over a week at a time after that.

@sneakypete
Me too. My first company was started around age 18... And I have not worked for anyone but myself since around 22... So like all business owners, my lessons were learned raw.

Other than rain, I did not have days off. Other than when I walked off (off season), I have never had a vacation, other than long range traveling to pick up a machine, or a car for business... I worked most of my life from sun up until sundown, and then did books and repairs after darkness fell. Roundup and haying merely added more work,and I kept up my calls in spite of it, and did ranch chores every day too.

Nothing pisses me off more than crybabies whining that their paper route or job at Mickey D's doesn't produce a 'living wage'... Folks don't have a clue what it means to actually work anymore, not to mention get ahead.

But I do.

After I was forced into medical retirement,I had a 1800 sq ft workshop put up,and filled it with tools and antique cars and parts so I would have something to when I feel good enough to do something.

I miss work like a junkie misses a fix.

I heard that. STILL trying to keep a hand in the game. Which is why I fix pooters. How I wish I had my bones back so I could play a real game... Good Lord willin and the creeks don't rise...

 

[libertybele]

The cost of labor hasn't kept up with production. We're working more, producing more, and making less money.

That's known as corporate greed.

[thackney]

That's known as corporate greed.

Better tools and equipment raise production faster than wages.  Smart companies invest for improvement which makes a stronger company for the employees.

It is silly to think they would always rise the same.

[sneakypete]

@sneakypete
 

   Nothing pisses me off more than crybabies whining that their paper route or job at Mickey D's doesn't produce a 'living wage'... Folks don't have a clue what it means to actually work anymore, not to mention get ahead.

@roamer_1

The thing that drives me nuts is all those people are missing out on the feeling of satisfaction bordering on joy that comes with doing a good job and getting rewarded for it. So what if that sounds like dog treats? Damned if it doesn't make a dog happy to be rewarded for doing a good job,and humans are no different.

On top of that,"happy" is it's own reward because someone that is happy gets sick less often and lives longer. It works kinda like a "reverse avalanche. You start at the bottom,and as the rewards increase,your happiness increases. When you happiness increases,you sleep better and your  appetite AND metabolism increase,and you have more energy and enthusiasm for your work. It's just win/win any way you want to look at it.

Especially when you consider the option,which is to have no work,and nothing to look forward to but finding a way to fill more dead time. I have honestly never seen anyone happy who has never held an actual job. Has nothing to do with money,either. Look at all the trust fund children that turn into junkies,go off and join ISIS,etc,etc,etc. Sitting on your ass and doing nothing is just contrary to human nature.

MY beliefs,and I am sticking to them.
 

[sneakypete]

That's known as corporate greed.

@libertybele

Yeah,and taxes to pay for all the welfare programs for states as well as people has nothing to do with it,right?

I don't want to shock you,but it is an established FACT that businesses compete for business,and one way they compete is to offer lower prices. The company that sells the identical dollar item a nickel cheaper sells more of them,and by virtue of that make more money.

Unless,of course,they are subsidized by the goobermint. Then they always lose money and need more grants. Funny how that works out,ain't it?

[Cyber Liberty]

The only reason this thread is still running is because somebody who has Stalinist nostalgia decided to regale us with the wonderful times brought to the Russian people by his wage policies to stamp out wage inequality for all but the Nomenklatura.

[roamer_1]

The thing that drives me nuts is all those people are missing out on the feeling of satisfaction bordering on joy that comes with doing a good job and getting rewarded for it. So what if that sounds like dog treats? Damned if it doesn't make a dog happy to be rewarded for doing a good job,and humans are no different.

@sneakypete

For me it's never been about the money... Like I said upthread, money's just a way of keeping score.
For me the reward is in the craft. Whether cowboying, bushcrafting, building a house or a dresser or a birch bark canoe, the art of moving things and tying down loads, Rebuilding a motor, Skyjacking a truck, anything mechanical, the beauty of well crafted code - For me it is in the mastery. And in the recognition of folks that really matter... The old masters whose praise comes damn hard and means something when it does come. That's when you know you are on target.

But yeah. Satisfaction. Doesn't matter which way... A good job well done has always given me that.

Worry about the work and the money will come.

MY beliefs,and I am sticking to them.
 

Damn well right.

[thackney]

Continued demonstration that "share the wealth" scams essentially always end in "share the poverty".

[roamer_1]

Continued demonstration that "share the wealth" scams essentially always end in "share the poverty".

That's right. Sooner or later, you run out of other people's money.

[sneakypete]

The only reason this thread is still running is because somebody who has Stalinist nostalgia decided to regale us with the wonderful times brought to the Russian people by his wage policies to stamp out wage inequality for all but the Nomenklatura.

@Cyber Liberty

You have to cut them some slack. Remember,many,many posters are too young to remember where,when,and why the term "Potemkin village" was created,if they have even heard the term.

I went to Russia a couple of times right after the collapse of the USSR,and it was amazing to hear all the hilarious jokes the Russians used to tell each other about their system. Stuff like "today's slogan is,"We pretend to work,and they pretend to pay us!"

What wasn't hilarious was having them tell you that everybody had a grandmother or grandfather living with the family because their had to be somebody in each family free during the day to stand in the fish line at the fish store,the meat line at the meat store,the shoe line at the department store,and even,honest to GAWD,the "light bulb line at the light bulb store." Worse,once you stood in line at the light bulb store,there was no guarantee there would be any light bulbs left once you got to the front of the line,even if there were you couldn't buy one unless you had the old one to trade in.  The Soviets did that in order to keep a "light bulb black market" from forming.

Oh yeah,the store workers mostly got off work at the same time as the factory workers,so there was no such thing as stopping by after work. If you didn't have an elderly relative living with you to shop for you during the day,you had to pay one of your neighbors elderly relatives to shop for you while he was shopping for them. You had to pay them,because to buy two light bulbs,you had to buy one,and then go to the back of the line and wait to get to the front again to buy the second one,and all that walking on cement and standing in lines is hard on old people.

[goatprairie]

@Cyber Liberty

You have to cut them some slack. Remember,many,many posters are too young to remember where,when,and why the term "Potemkin village" was created,if they have even heard the term.

I went to Russia a couple of times right after the collapse of the USSR,and it was amazing to hear all the hilarious jokes the Russians used to tell each other about their system. Stuff like "today's slogan is,"We pretend to work,and they pretend to pay us!"

What wasn't hilarious was having them tell you that everybody had a grandmother or grandfather living with the family because their had to be somebody in each family free during the day to stand in the fish line at the fish store,the meat line at the meat store,the shoe line at the department store,and even,honest to GAWD,the "light bulb line at the light bulb store." Worse,once you stood in line at the light bulb store,there was no guarantee there would be any light bulbs left once you got to the front of the line,even if there were you couldn't buy one unless you had the old one to trade in.  The Soviets did that in order to keep a "light bulb black market" from forming.

Oh yeah,the store workers mostly got off work at the same time as the factory workers,so there was no such thing as stopping by after work. If you didn't have an elderly relative living with you to shop for you during the day,you had to pay one of your neighbors elderly relatives to shop for you while he was shopping for them. You had to pay them,because to buy two light bulbs,you had to buy one,and then go to the back of the line and wait to get to the front again to buy the second one,and all that walking on cement and standing in lines is hard on old people.

"You had to pay them,because to buy two light bulbs,you had to buy one,and then go to the back of the line and wait to get to the front again to buy the second one,and all that walking on cement and standing in lines is hard on old people."

I get highly irritated when I read quotes from some liberal westerners questioning why we have so many choices in our stores.
I remember reading Michael Palin's (Monty Python) memoir about when he first went into an American grocery store and was astounded at the choices available just for breakfast cereal.
His quote was something to the effect that "surely we don't need that many different kinds of cereal."
That was similar to Bernie "The Idiot" Sanders's statement about too many deodorant brands.
It's a shame they couldn't have been made to live in one of those old socialist republics for a long period of time where they might have just one choice or many times no choice. I'm sure they'd both been very happy with that situation. 

[berdie]

"You had to pay them,because to buy two light bulbs,you had to buy one,and then go to the back of the line and wait to get to the front again to buy the second one,and all that walking on cement and standing in lines is hard on old people."

I get highly irritated when I read quotes from some liberal westerners questioning why we have so many choices in our stores.
I remember reading Michael Palin's (Monty Python) memoir about when he first went into an American grocery store and was astounded at the choices available just for breakfast cereal.
His quote was something to the effect that "surely we don't need that many different kinds of cereal."
That was similar to Bernie "The Idiot" Sanders's statement about too many deodorant brands.
It's a shame they couldn't have been made to live in one of those old socialist republics for a long period of time where they might have just one choice or many times no choice. I'm sure they'd both been very happy with that situation. 

Many years ago my brother brought 2 of his co-workers here for a 4th of July celebration. They were just recently here. I loved talking to them. The thing that amazed me most was how they loved going to the grocery store. Huge selections and no line to get in. I realized how we are blessed but didn't really understand until talking to them. I laughed and asked about the lines to get out and they looked at me like I had two heads.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

Got laid off in '82 (oil price crash). Spent a year looking for work, had one nibble, but it paid less than my (then) nontaxable unemployment check, and I didn't have to buy gas to get to work. It also paid so much less than my former pay I didn't have to accept the offer, by law, and could still draw unemployment.
What brought in the most money to live on?
I still found plenty to do, in between filling out applications and knocking on doors...

Got laid off after 27 years and it took me 2 years to find another fulltime job.  In between my family tightened the belt and survived, with a couple of consulting jobs I could find.

It was a dark time, but resulted in the best possible situation I could dream about.

God knows what is best for us, no matter what us humans think.