Author Topic: Defying Pentagon, Trump Backs Turkish Operation in Syria Targeting U.S.-backed Kurds  (Read 7914 times)

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Offline txradioguy

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My rebuttal is logical but you will not accept it so why bother? I do not believe we can fix the centuries old problem between the Kurds and the Turks and whomever else. Every other time we've intervened militarily in the ME we've failed to really improve anything, if our involvement hasn't actually made things worse. I am tired of wars with no congressional buy-in. I do not want to see another open-ended, indefinite military occupation.

No one here or in DC is talking about that.  No one is trying to fix the centuries old problems or engage in an endless war. 

I've been reading replies from Rand Paul suppporters on social media and hearing it on talk radio yesterday by numerous callers so I see you've got the same talking points because they are saying almsot verbatim what you just said above.  It's all fortune cookie bumpersticker crap.

This isn't about intervention...endless war or centires old conflicts.  They've been critical in the fight against ISIS and now we're just gonna say "see ya you're on your own".

This is simply about do we or do we not abandon an ally.

How are we ever going to get anyone to trust us if we continue to do that to people that have bled and died along side us on the field of battle.  How is it soild stratigic foreign policy to cut and run whenever we feel like it or it's not politically expedient for us to be engaged?

It's not. 

Quote
But as I said, carry on.

I will because your radical Libertarian isolationist pablum is dangerous to our country.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2019, 11:29:04 AM by txradioguy »
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

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THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

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Offline skeeter

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No one here or in DC is talkign about that.  No one is trying to fix the centuries old problems or engage in an endless war. 

I've been reading replies from Rand Paul suppporters on social media and hearing it on talk radio yesterday by numerous callers so I see you've got the same talking points because they are saying almsot verbatim what you just said above.  It's all fortune cookie bumpersticker crap.

This isn't about intervention...endless war or centires old conflicts.  They've been critical in the fight against ISIS and now we're just gonna say "see ya you're on your own".

This is simply about do we or do we not abandon an ally.

How are we ever going to get anyone to trust us if we continue to do that to people that have bled and died along side us on the field of battle.  How is it soild stratigic foreign policy to cut and run whenever we feel like it or it's not politically expedient for us to be engaged?

It's not. 


Thanks for your contradictory non-answer.

All you did was try to characterize my reply. Thats why its not worth the effort.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2019, 11:02:34 AM by skeeter »

Offline TomSea

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Well, at this point and what I was reading Sen. Rubio tweeted this morning:
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Marco Rubio
@marcorubio
#Syria isn’t about neocons or hawks,it’s about reality.

The Kurds were lead ground force against ISIS & currently hold 1000’s of ISIS killers in jail. Abandoning them is morally repugnant,stains our nations reputation & could lead to 1000’s of ISIS killers back on battlefield.
8:17 AM · Oct 8, 2019·Twitter for iPad

https://twitter.com/marcorubio/status/1181559355256295424

So, we do have the 'prisoners' issue...I think most people could admit, whether they like it or not, that it is important to keep these prisoners behind bars.

I guess, there is an "aftermath" for war, lacking a better term, we are still in Germany but that war ended 74 years ago.

So, I get the "end endless wars" bit, it's a good soundbyte, I'm not criticizing anyone who says that.  We need to leave... leave at the right time, we certainly don't have many troops there and at this time, they are keeping peace.

Offline TomSea

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Quote
Trump: Writing Letters to Parents of Fallen Soldiers is 'Hardest Thing I Have to Do' President opens up about the difficult process following death of troops

READ MORE: https://neonnettle.com/news/9036-trump-writing-letters-to-parents-of-fallen-soldiers-is-hardest-thing-i-have-to-do-
© Neon Nettle

Probably so...I think the initial message of what we are doing in Syria got, intentionally or not, a lot of people upset at how it came off. I think, if one wanted to avoid all of this, it should have been put differently.

As it is, almost nobody understands as to what it means and what is happening. It probably was made with some positive intent.

Offline txradioguy

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Thanks for your contradictory non-answer.

All you did was try to characterize my reply. Thats why its not worth the effort.

If that's what you want to call it *shrug*...ok.

I rebutted your talking points and showed where your non-interventionist and isolationst beliefs are dangers and hurt our allies.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline txradioguy

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Probably so...I think the initial message of what we are doing in Syria got, intentionally or not, a lot of people upset at how it came off. I think, if one wanted to avoid all of this, it should have been put differently.

As it is, almost nobody understands as to what it means and what is happening. It probably was made with some positive intent.

What does this have to do with the topic?

Oh yeah that's right....
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline XenaLee

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@XenaLee

They aren't an ally.  And in the past they have repeatedly denied the U.S. use of Incirlik for offensice military purposes.  The 4th Infantry Division of which I'm a curent member...was suppsoed to land the division at a port in Turkey and roll into Iraq from the north. And until the civil war in Syria broke out there was talk of dropping them form NATO because they'd become so hostile to the other partner nations. 

Turkey...an (alleged) NATO ally...denied us use of their ports do offload the division.

But they sure were fast to invoke Article 5 of the NATO charter (Collective defence...an attack against one Ally is considered as an attack against all Allies.) when Syria bombed refugee camps inside Turkey.

Over the last 5 years they have physically harassed U.S. sailors during Liberty when their ship was in port...and as of 2016 family members of the U.S. military there had to evacuate to Germany because the situation had grown so tense.  Turkey will not more than likely become an unaccompanied tour for those assigned there.

In addition to that Erdogan has been funneling oil via his pipelines to help ISIS market oil.


ANd here we go just backing out of the way....screwing over a very loyal ally in the region to let Turkey bomb the shit out of them.


Those are NATO shared nukes.  Blame Brussels.

Let me guess.  In other words... blame Obama = Soros?

If so, that figures.   The evil Einstein behind most of the disastrous-for-America decisions and actions for the past decade plus.

Time for unity in America! (better late than never)


Offline txradioguy

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Let me guess.  In other words... blame Obama = Soros?

If so, that figures.   The evil Einstein behind most of the disastrous-for-America decisions and actions for the past decade plus.

To a certain point yes.  But Trump owns the U.S. foreign policy now and if he makes the same mistakes that Obama did...then it's his fault not Obama's.

The politicians in NATO and to some extent some of their Generals are captives of PC and their own Progressive governments.  I'll give Trump credit he has cajoled most of them into finally living up to their 2% of GDP pledge for defense. 

But as far as doing anything outside of their own borders...not many of them will do it.  Certainly not those countries that have recieved the most "refugees" as of late.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2019, 12:58:10 PM by txradioguy »
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline skeeter

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If that's what you want to call it *shrug*...ok.

I rebutted your talking points and showed where your non-interventionist and isolationst beliefs are dangers and hurt our allies.

No. You responded to simple reason with what you call 'bumper sticker' slogans.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2019, 12:03:15 PM by skeeter »

Offline XenaLee

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I must admit... I am conflicted about this issue.   While I do want our guys brought home (nobody ever said they were supposed to stay in Syria forever).... I can see the critical issue of ISIS prisoners being allowed to be set free (by Turkish factions) as a deal breaker.   Why the hell can't the US arrange a prisoner transfer to Gitmo?   That would solve the main problem with pulling out.  Am I missing something? 
Time for unity in America! (better late than never)


Offline skeeter

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I must admit... I am conflicted about this issue.   While I do want our guys brought home (nobody ever said they were supposed to stay in Syria forever).... I can see the critical issue of ISIS prisoners being allowed to be set free (by Turkish factions) as a deal breaker.   Why the hell can't the US arrange a prisoner transfer to Gitmo?   That would solve the main problem with pulling out.  Am I missing something?
I don't want to have to be buying these guys Fruitloops until some rat judge orders them released here under the US asylum policy. Why not let the Kurds deal with them old school. It'd be good therapy for em.

Offline XenaLee

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I don't want to have to be buying these guys Fruitloops until some rat judge orders them released here under the US asylum policy. Why not let the Kurds deal with them old school. It'd be good therapy for em.

Because under the Kurds', they may end up being released if or when Turkish factions attack the Kurds.  I thought that point was already made upthread.    :shrug:
Time for unity in America! (better late than never)


Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Just so we don't completely lose our heads over whats happening here - we're withdrawing ~1000 personnel from northern Syria, who've been there just over two years. Presumably material support will continue.

Just some perspective.

But it's the KURDS!!   9999hair out0000
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Offline kevindavis

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No one here or in DC is talking about that.  No one is trying to fix the centuries old problems or engage in an endless war. 

I've been reading replies from Rand Paul suppporters on social media and hearing it on talk radio yesterday by numerous callers so I see you've got the same talking points because they are saying almsot verbatim what you just said above.  It's all fortune cookie bumpersticker crap.

This isn't about intervention...endless war or centires old conflicts.  They've been critical in the fight against ISIS and now we're just gonna say "see ya you're on your own".

This is simply about do we or do we not abandon an ally.

How are we ever going to get anyone to trust us if we continue to do that to people that have bled and died along side us on the field of battle.  How is it soild stratigic foreign policy to cut and run whenever we feel like it or it's not politically expedient for us to be engaged?

It's not. 

I will because your radical Libertarian isolationist pablum is dangerous to our country.


The last time we listened to Isolationists was in the 1930's. Looked how well it worked out.  The problem with the Libertarian Isolationists is that the following:


1. They think the oceans will protect us from dangers. Nope not anymore.. We where close to being bombed by the Germans in WWII (Yes the Nazi's was almost came close to developing an America bomber).


2. Fortress America is better. Nope. Not gonna work.



"If we die, we want people to accept it. We're in a risky business, and we hope that if anything happens to us it will not delay the program. The conquest of space is worth the risk of life."

Gus Grissom

Offline TomSea

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I must admit... I am conflicted about this issue.   While I do want our guys brought home (nobody ever said they were supposed to stay in Syria forever).... I can see the critical issue of ISIS prisoners being allowed to be set free (by Turkish factions) as a deal breaker.   Why the hell can't the US arrange a prisoner transfer to Gitmo?   That would solve the main problem with pulling out.  Am I missing something?

But, keeping up with this, I believe there are actually 5,000 such prisoners, that's just male prisoners. The logistics are not there.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/isis-suspects-in-overcrowded-syria-prison-tell-cbs-news-theyre-american-sdf-says-needs-help-2019-09-17/

To me, that's way to many to put in Gitmo or even other arrangements. The Kurds/SDF have said,  previously, when it didn't appear we were going to cut bait and run, that they would hold them and let them do their time for justice.

BTW, that we are withdrawing and things like that, I consider that to be far from calling this a fact. In a way, it seems no, we are not. A bit of confusion on this issue.

Offline kevindavis

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And you notice he was out there doing another victory lap yesterday too.


Yes he was..
"If we die, we want people to accept it. We're in a risky business, and we hope that if anything happens to us it will not delay the program. The conquest of space is worth the risk of life."

Gus Grissom

Offline skeeter

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The last time we listened to Isolationists was in the 1930's. Looked how well it worked out.  The problem with the Libertarian Isolationists is that the following:


1. They think the oceans will protect us from dangers. Nope not anymore.. We where close to being bombed by the Germans in WWII (Yes the Nazi's was almost came close to developing an America bomber).


2. Fortress America is better. Nope. Not gonna work.

There is a significant difference between a 'libertarian isolationist' and those who refuse to risk American lives except in pursuit of America's immediate interests.

No one here is saying we shouldn't involve ourselves in other ways in service of our general interests or where there's a clear moral imperative.

Personally I'm tired of the globalists leading Americans around by the nose.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2019, 12:30:22 PM by skeeter »

Offline skeeter

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Because under the Kurds', they may end up being released if or when Turkish factions attack the Kurds.  I thought that point was already made upthread.    :shrug:

Yeah, well the thread is 9 pages long.

Offline aligncare

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There is a significant difference between a 'libertarian isolationist' and those who refuse to risk American lives except in pursuit of America's immediate interests.

No one here is saying we shouldn't involve ourselves in other ways in service of our general interests or where there's a clear moral imperative.

Personally I'm tired of the globalists leading Americans around by the nose.

Yeah, but isolationist seems so much sexier, don’t you think? Rhetorical question.  :cool:
« Last Edit: October 08, 2019, 12:45:52 PM by aligncare »

Offline TomSea

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There is a significant difference between a 'libertarian isolationist' and those who refuse to risk American lives except in pursuit of America's immediate interests.

No one here is saying we shouldn't involve ourselves in other ways in service of our general interests or where there's a clear moral imperative.

Personally I'm tired of the globalists leading Americans around by the nose.

This makes sense.

Now, one can dispute this, that's fine.

I think there is the possibility of the Kurds/others cutting a deal with Assad and RUSSIA because they have no other options. I think Assad probably is more responsible than anyone else for all the trouble there, probably overwhelmingly so.

<a  href="https://twitter.com/Charles_Lister"> Charles Lister [/url] probably believes so.

So, this isn't a good option and as of now, our troops are not in real danger there...

A lesson for all, we were there last December, Trump called for this "withdrawal", within days, a cafe was suicide bombed or bombed, we lost at least 2 soldiers and a translator who was American. The terrorists really did this it looks like, in response to Trump's announcement. That's probably why this time,  in part, the announcement was done differently.

Offline skeeter

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This makes sense.

Now, one can dispute this, that's fine.

I think there is the possibility of the Kurds/others cutting a deal with Assad and RUSSIA because they have no other options. I think Assad probably is more responsible than anyone else for all the trouble there, probably overwhelmingly so.

<a  href="https://twitter.com/Charles_Lister"> Charles Lister [/url] probably believes so.

So, this isn't a good option and as of now, our troops are not in real danger there...

A lesson for all, we were there last December, Trump called for this "withdrawal", within days, a cafe was suicide bombed or bombed, we lost at least 2 soldiers and a translator who was American. The terrorists really did this it looks like, in response to Trump's announcement. That's probably why this time,  in part, the announcement was done differently.

All this aside, your attempt to interject a moderate tone into the debate here is appreciated.

Offline txradioguy

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I don't want to have to be buying these guys Fruitloops until some rat judge orders them released here under the US asylum policy. Why not let the Kurds deal with them old school. It'd be good therapy for em.

Because the Kurds are about to be blasted to oblivion in that region and won't beable to do that because Trump retreated and left them open to attack from Turkey.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline txradioguy

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The last time we listened to Isolationists was in the 1930's. Looked how well it worked out.  The problem with the Libertarian Isolationists is that the following:


1. They think the oceans will protect us from dangers. Nope not anymore.. We where close to being bombed by the Germans in WWII (Yes the Nazi's was almost came close to developing an America bomber).


2. Fortress America is better. Nope. Not gonna work.

Asbolutely correct.

You would think that 9/11 would have taught them this hard lesson.  But clearly it hasn't.  And they also seem hell bent on repeating the miscues of HW Bush and Obama when it comes to abandoning an ally.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline XenaLee

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But, keeping up with this, I believe there are actually 5,000 such prisoners, that's just male prisoners. The logistics are not there.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/isis-suspects-in-overcrowded-syria-prison-tell-cbs-news-theyre-american-sdf-says-needs-help-2019-09-17/

To me, that's way to many to put in Gitmo or even other arrangements. The Kurds/SDF have said,  previously, when it didn't appear we were going to cut bait and run, that they would hold them and let them do their time for justice.

BTW, that we are withdrawing and things like that, I consider that to be far from calling this a fact. In a way, it seems no, we are not. A bit of confusion on this issue.

Eh... yeah.   Now I'm good & confused.   
Time for unity in America! (better late than never)


Offline XenaLee

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Because the Kurds are about to be blasted to oblivion in that region and won't be able to do that because Trump retreated and left them open to attack from Turkey.

Ok... off the cuff here....but if that's true, why couldn't the Kurds "wire" the holding area to blow if or when that area is attacked by the Turks....and make damned sure that the Turks know?   Sounds harsh?   ISIS is the very definition of harsh.   Better to eliminate the terrorists than risk letting them go.   Just sayin....
Time for unity in America! (better late than never)



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