Author Topic: Defying Pentagon, Trump Backs Turkish Operation in Syria Targeting U.S.-backed Kurds  (Read 6345 times)

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Offline jpsb

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@XenaLee

We don’t have nukes in Turkey.

I don't know if they are still there, but we did have about 50 nukes in Turkey during the cold war. Rumor has it that
they were moved out last year (2018).

Offline mountaineer

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Quote
Mike Lee    @SenMikeLee
Thank you, President Trump, for withdrawing U.S. military personnel from Syria.  Undeclared wars are as unconstitutional as they are inadvisable.  Those who disagree with this decision should ask Congress to declare war or otherwise authorize the use of military force.
12:43 AM · Oct 8, 2019


(Just tossing this out there, as one view of the situation.)
« Last Edit: October 08, 2019, 08:32:58 AM by mountaineer »
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Online bigheadfred

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Mike Lee    @SenMikeLee
Thank you, President Trump, for withdrawing U.S. military personnel from Syria.  Undeclared wars are as unconstitutional as they are inadvisable.  Those who disagree with this decision should ask Congress to declare war or otherwise authorize the use of military force.
12:43 AM · Oct 8, 2019

Right.

Two reasons to involve ourselves in the ME.

Oil.

Keep those stupid bastids from aligning themselves together enough to be a serious threat to Israel.





« Last Edit: October 08, 2019, 12:27:16 PM by mystery-ak »

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Again, you state a falsehood, the Kurds are NOT in a battle with Iraq. They have their own autonomous region.

I said the Kurds are doing battle with Turkey @TomSea  The map shows how fragmented the Kurds are which adds to their difficulty forming a united and effective leadership and hinders their push for one Kurdistan. I asked which of the four countries neocons would be willing to fight to help the Kurds carve out enough territory to form one nation--- their supposedly goal.  I mean if they're serious about really helping the Kurds.

Quote
Trump is seeming to contemplate the same idiotic decision that Obama made, hopefully he's walking it back.

There's nothing "idiotic" about regional problems being solved regionally.  There's nothing idiotic about ending endless war.  We went to Syria for a 30 day engagement.  What's idiotic is still being there.  The President has always said if we go to war we fight to win and then leave.  It's now time for us to leave.

As for the Kurds, yes, they fought ISIS --- but our interests dovetailed. We helped them as much as they helped us.  Our mission is accomplished and we do not owe them our blood.   If Turkey is dumb enough to attempt to massacre the Kurds, that will be dealt with.   But if the Kurds continue to fight Turkey they can use the equipment and training we've provided to do it.  Our boots no longer belong on the ground.

Hopefully our policing days in the Middle Eastern region are coming to an end.   Anything else would be "idiotic". 

For too long many have accepted war as our natural and moral state.  It will take some time for them to adjust to a world order where American interests and national security needs dictate where we send our young to die --- and for how long. 





« Last Edit: October 08, 2019, 08:32:32 AM by Right_in_Virginia »
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Offline Right_in_Virginia

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I don't know if they are still there, but we did have about 50 nukes in Turkey during the cold war. Rumor has it that
they were moved out last year (2018). 

@jpsb

Quote
Weapons provided for nuclear sharing (2019)
 Belgium Kleine Brogel 20 B61 
 Germany Büchel 20 B61 
 Italy Aviano 40 B61 
 Italy Ghedi 40 B61 
 Netherlands Volkel 20 B61 
Turkey Incirlik 50 B61 

5 nations;  6 bases

Of the three nuclear powers in NATO (France, the United Kingdom and the United States), only the United States is known to have provided weapons for nuclear sharing.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_sharing

Quote
Time to Pull US Nuclear Weapons Out of Turkey
Defense One, May 17, 2019

Storing nuclear weapons close to trouble is a bad idea, and giving Ankara a shared finger on the nuclear trigger is rapidly losing its charm.

Amid the recent self-congratulatory celebrations of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization’s 70th anniversary, there was no mention one of its strangest policies: the nuclear sharing program that keeps American nuclear bombs in five NATO countries (Belgium, the Netherlands, Germany, Italy and Turkey) and trains host air forces to use them.

Thus at Incirlik Air Base in Turkey, about 100 miles from the Syrian border, the United States stores some 20 to 80 B61 nuclear weapons for delivery by Turkish or American aircraft. There is not much comfort in knowing that these weapons are under direct American control in heavily guarded bunkers and are designed to be unusable without the proper codes. It is time to bring them home.

More:  https://www.defenseone.com/ideas/2019/05/get-us-nuclear-weapons-out-turkey/157101/   
"January 20th 2017 will be remembered as the day the people became the rulers of this nation again."  --  President Donald J. Trump

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Donald J. Trump
Verified account   @realDonaldTrump

The United States was supposed to be in Syria for 30 days, that was many years ago. We stayed and got deeper and deeper into battle with no aim in sight. When I arrived in Washington, ISIS was running rampant in the area. We quickly defeated 100% of the ISIS Caliphate,.....

...including capturing thousands of ISIS fighters, mostly from Europe. But Europe did not want them back, they said you keep them USA! I said “NO, we did you a great favor and now you want us to hold them in U.S. prisons at tremendous cost. They are yours for trials.” They.....

.....again said “NO,” thinking, as usual, that the U.S. is always the “sucker,” on NATO, on Trade, on everything. The Kurds fought with us, but were paid massive amounts of money and equipment to do so. They have been fighting Turkey for decades. I held off this fight for....

...almost 3 years, but it is time for us to get out of these ridiculous Endless Wars, many of them tribal, and bring our soldiers home. WE WILL FIGHT WHERE IT IS TO OUR BENEFIT, AND ONLY FIGHT TO WIN. Turkey, Europe, Syria, Iran, Iraq, Russia and the Kurds will now have to.....

...figure the situation out, and what they want to do with the captured ISIS fighters in their “neighborhood.” They all hate ISIS, have been enemies for years. We are 7000 miles away and will crush ISIS again if they come anywhere near us!

4:40 AM - 7 Oct 2019

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1181172467676565505

@TomSea
"January 20th 2017 will be remembered as the day the people became the rulers of this nation again."  --  President Donald J. Trump

Offline kevindavis

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The fact that Rand Paul likes this move give me another reason to hate this move.
"If we die, we want people to accept it. We're in a risky business, and we hope that if anything happens to us it will not delay the program. The conquest of space is worth the risk of life."

Gus Grissom

Online TomSea

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@TomSea

Big deal. Anyone who keeps up with the news knows that.
Quote
There's nothing "idiotic" about regional problems being solved regionally.  There's nothing idiotic about ending endless war.  We went to Syria for a 30 day engagement.  What's idiotic is still being there.  The President has always said if we go to war we fight to win and then leave.  It's now time for us to leave.

Thank you President Obama, co-founder, if inadvertently of ISIS.

Quote
As for the Kurds, yes, they fought ISIS --- but our interests dovetailed. We helped them as much as they helped us.  Our mission is accomplished and we do not owe them our blood.

Thank you for restating your opinion.

I'll restate mine too, no, we don't need to do the same idiotic things that Obama nor Bush did.  I did not vote for Obama II. This is the same thing that gave rise to ISIS in the first place.

I thought Trump campaigned to defeat ISIS, the job is not finished.  So, "selective quoting" of what he said isn't helpful.

We expanded the size of the base in Iraq if he's so "isolationist".

We still sell weapons to the Saudis.

He threw out the Iran deal, if the Iranians do not negotiate, eventually force may be needed, so his non-interventionist talk is somewhat limited.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2019, 09:57:13 AM by TomSea »

Offline txradioguy

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The fact that Rand Paul likes this move give me another reason to hate this move.

And you notice he was out there doing another victory lap yesterday too.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

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THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

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Offline txradioguy

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I'll restate mine too, no, we don't need to do the same idiotic things that Obama nor Bush did.

And yet here we are doing exactly what Obama did.  Screwing over an ally.

We're gonna really find ourselves alone in the world if we keep doing this to people who are willing to help us.

Pretty soon there won't be anyone out there left to help us at a time when we desperately need it.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline txradioguy

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(Just tossing this out there, as one view of the situation.)

That's really disappointing coming from Senator Lee.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline Chosen Daughter

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Again, you state a falsehood, the Kurds are NOT in a battle with Iraq. They have their own autonomous region.

And your talk about carving out a part of Turkey, we are talking about Syria here, we are NOT talking about freaking Turkey, we are not aiding Kurdish rebellion in Turkey.

And don't come out with "The Kurds have never helped us unless their interests dovetail with ours", the Kurds in no way, had to help us retake the ISIS capital of Syria and I assume you know what city that was.  But they did.



Trump is seeming to contemplate the same idiotic decision that Obama made, hopefully he's walking it back.

No, for all of your bluster, the Kurds helped us, I"m sure they helped us plenty in Iraq,  fight insurgents as well.  That's probably why they are currently at peace with the ruling regime.

Prove the Kurds are fighting with the Iraqi government. If that is so, it shouldn't be hard to find proof.

Lastly, no Kurds, no defeat of ISIS in Syria, you seem to leave that part out. Trump claims he beat ISIS, to an extent, that's so and would not have without the Kurds.

And Trump said the same a year ago:


Trump: “Kurds are great people, great fighters, I like them a lot. We are trying to help them a lot. Don’t forget that’s their territory.They fought with us, they died with us, we lost tens of thousands of Kurds fighting ISIS. They’re great people and we have not forgotten.”

816
8:38 PM - Sep 26, 2018 (See video at link)

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/trump-syria-withdrawal-congressional-republicans-condemn-decision/

They fought with us he said.  It was the Kurds that sacrificed for @Right_in_Virginia to say Trump defeated ISIS in Syria.  It was their blood so based on her comment perhaps she shouldn't trot out that remark anymore.  Because winning depended on others sacrificing their families.  But ISIS is not 100% defeated and Lindsey Graham called the President out on it. 

President Trump says he is fulfilling campaign promises?  I don't think that he promised the people that he would do it by joining up with a dictator to take out our allies in Syria.  ISIS will be making a come back, count on it.  Not winning!  Not winning at all.  Being a president for dictatorships and the most oppressive evil countries.  What can be the purpose.?

A few months ago when Trump was telling his Cabinet that he was going to withdraw from Syria he referred to it as "sand and death".  He wants to make sure. 

Some say Trump is the antichrist.  I don't know about that but it appears he is paving the way.  He is making all the plays.  Pat Robertson says he is in danger of loosing his Heaven Mandate.  I don't think he ever had one.  But even the elect can be deceived.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2019, 10:05:42 AM by Chosen Daughter »
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Online skeeter

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And yet here we are doing exactly what Obama did.  Screwing over an ally.

We're gonna really find ourselves alone in the world if we keep doing this to people who are willing to help us.

Pretty soon there won't be anyone out there left to help us at a time when we desperately need it.

Just so we don't completely lose our heads over whats happening here - we're withdrawing ~1000 personnel from northern Syria, who've been there just over two years. Presumably material support will continue.

Just some perspective.

Offline txradioguy

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I realize that my memory is a bit fuzzy, but.... I seem to recall that Turkey was one of the nations that refused to allow the US to 'fly over' during the Iraqi invasion by Bush.   I'm no expert, but a nation that refuses such access is no damned ""ally"".

@XenaLee

They aren't an ally.  And in the past they have repeatedly denied the U.S. use of Incirlik for offensice military purposes.  The 4th Infantry Division of which I'm a curent member...was suppsoed to land the division at a port in Turkey and roll into Iraq from the north. And until the civil war in Syria broke out there was talk of dropping them form NATO because they'd become so hostile to the other partner nations. 

Turkey...an (alleged) NATO ally...denied us use of their ports do offload the division.

But they sure were fast to invoke Article 5 of the NATO charter (Collective defence...an attack against one Ally is considered as an attack against all Allies.) when Syria bombed refugee camps inside Turkey.

Over the last 5 years they have physically harassed U.S. sailors during Liberty when their ship was in port...and as of 2016 family members of the U.S. military there had to evacuate to Germany because the situation had grown so tense.  Turkey will not more than likely become an unaccompanied tour for those assigned there.

In addition to that Erdogan has been funneling oil via his pipelines to help ISIS market oil.


ANd here we go just backing out of the way....screwing over a very loyal ally in the region to let Turkey bomb the shit out of them.


Quote
Allowing Turkey access to US nukes is about THE stupidest thing I've heard yet.  What Einstein made that call?

Those are NATO shared nukes.  Blame Brussels.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline txradioguy

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Just so we don't completely lose our heads over whats happening here - we're withdrawing ~1000 personnel from northern Syria, who've been there just over two years. Presumably material support will continue.

Just some perspective.

Here's some more perspective...those soldiers have been there for quite awhile and Turkey hadn't once made an aggressive move that I recall agaisnt the Kurds.

Trump decides to retreat and within 4-5 hours Turkey is launching attacks.

Just some perspective.

The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline Chosen Daughter

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And you notice he was out there doing another victory lap yesterday too.

Its not surprising.  He is anti war.  People like him would have had Hitler take over Europe.  They don't believe in righteous war.  A war to protect people from evil.  So ISIS is definitely a righteous cause for the U.S military.  While also keeping us safe from them on our own ground.  But stopping genocide and ethnic cleansing has always been a right cause.

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” ― Edmund Burke “Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.” ― Edmund Burke

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Online TomSea

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Kinda,

It sounds like we have walked back some of the talk.

Quote
Trump Administration Appears to Reverse Syria Decision Following Backlash
https://www.usnews.com/news/world-report/articles/2019-10-07/trump-administration-appears-to-reverse-syria-decision-following-backlash

So, others can judge this or can provide their perspective or expertise to this. I certainly don't have the latter.

It's a difficult call. Turkey is an ally, we could end up in a situation where they are firing at us for all I know.

Turkey has legitimate concerns about some factions of the Kurds,  Kurdish guerillas have planted IEDs in Turkey, attacked police stations and things like that, traffic checks and road blocks, no one should deny this. PKK can scurry across the border for attacks and some press such as this "Syria Call" posts some stories that are definitely not positive about the Kurds.

Turkey has accepted over 3 million Syrian refugees, nobody wants to sugarcoat what is going on and Turkey appears to have legitimate concerns.  There are a number of concerned sources, more like drama queens saying "turkey will commit ethnic cleansing" and thing slike that. We do need to see what will and can happen.

And again, Trump ran as a "non-interventionist" isolationist type; but that is by far, a done deal, when he has tossed out the JCPOA (Iranian Nuke Deal),  if you've done that, again, force may be needed at some point.

Offline Chosen Daughter

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Here's some more perspective...those soldiers have been there for quite awhile and Turkey hadn't once made an aggressive move that I recall agaisnt the Kurds.

Trump decides to retreat and within 4-5 hours Turkey is launching attacks.

Just some perspective.

He negotiated it that way with his friend.  He called the extremist dictator friend at the U.N.  Has nothing to do with campaign promise.  That would be a withdrawal not a military operation by Turkey to cleanse the land of Kurds.
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Offline Chosen Daughter

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Kinda,

It sounds like we have walked back some of the talk.

So, others can judge this or can provide their perspective or expertise to this. I certainly don't have the latter.

It's a difficult call. Turkey is an ally, we could end up in a situation where they are firing at us for all I know.

Turkey has legitimate concerns about some factions of the Kurds,  Kurdish guerillas have planted IEDs in Turkey, attacked police stations and things like that, traffic checks and road blocks, no one should deny this. PKK can scurry across the border for attacks and some press such as this "Syria Call" posts some stories that are definitely not positive about the Kurds.

Turkey has accepted over 3 million Syrian refugees, nobody wants to sugarcoat what is going on and Turkey appears to have legitimate concerns.  There are a number of concerned sources, more like drama queens saying "turkey will commit ethnic cleansing" and thing slike that. We do need to see what will and can happen.

And again, Trump ran as a "non-interventionist" isolationist type; but that is by far, a done deal, when he has tossed out the JCPOA (Iranian Nuke Deal),  if you've done that, again, force may be needed at some point.

We should be increasing military aid to the Kurds.  Fight alongside them.  Otherwise we are helping Turkey, Iran and Russia to do as they will with the Middle East.
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Offline txradioguy

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Its not surprising.  He is anti war.  People like him would have had Hitler take over Europe.  They don't believe in righteous war.  A war to protect people from evil.  So ISIS is definitely a righteous cause for the U.S military.  While also keeping us safe from them on our own ground.  But stopping genocide and ethnic cleansing has always been a right cause.

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” ― Edmund Burke “Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.” ― Edmund Burke

The fact that Trump is doing this...talking and sounding more and more like his new foreign policy advisor Rand Paul clarifies why people like Mattis and Bolton are no longer in the Administration.

And Rand Paul can go out there and grin and talk about "endless wars" and sound just as nutty as his old man...but this isn't about endless wars...it's about a cohearant foreign policy...it's about not abandoning allies.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline txradioguy

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We should be increasing military aid to the Kurds.  Fight alongside them.  Otherwise we are helping Turkey, Iran and Russia to do as they will with the Middle East.

Right now we're repeating the mistakes of the Obama administration...whether by accident or on purpose.  IF it keeps up...we won't have one friend in the region.

And other countries in other regions are wathching what we're doing here you can bet on that.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Online skeeter

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Here's some more perspective...those soldiers have been there for quite awhile and Turkey hadn't once made an aggressive move that I recall agaisnt the Kurds.

Trump decides to retreat and within 4-5 hours Turkey is launching attacks.

Just some perspective.

By all means, continue your arm waving.

Offline txradioguy

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By all means, continue your arm waving.

Translation: "I've got nothing to rebut that so I'll just throw out some nonsense as a reply."
« Last Edit: October 08, 2019, 10:37:51 AM by txradioguy »
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline txradioguy

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I don't know if they are still there, but we did have about 50 nukes in Turkey during the cold war. Rumor has it that
they were moved out last year (2018).

They are what's knows as "shared" nukes.  Several NATO countries share them as I understand it.

Same kind of situation with the ones we have stored at Luftwaffe bases in Germany.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Online skeeter

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Translation: "I've got nothing to rebut that so I'll just throw out some nonsense as a reply."

My rebuttal is logical but you will not accept it so why bother? I do not believe we can fix the centuries old problem between the Kurds and the Turks and whomever else. Every other time we've intervened militarily in the ME we've failed to really improve anything, if our involvement hasn't actually made things worse. I am tired of wars with no congressional buy-in. I do not want to see another open-ended, indefinite military occupation.

But as I said, carry on.


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