Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria

[TomSea]

Not likely.  The Kurds would have been the first and most convenient target for any ISIS fighters upon escape/being released.  Obvious Turkish propaganda.

Exactly, and now, it sounds like the State Department or Pentagon officials do say Turkish-backed militias did it. Maybe those anonymous sources but the story is out there.

[roamer_1]

Getting the hell out as fast as possible seems like a sound exit strategy to me. I think Trump wants Erdogan to go full muzzie jihad so he can lay down some serious sanctions. And that may include giving up part of turkey to the Kurds.

Our only reason to be in Syria was to play F***-F*** games with the Russians and Iranians.

If that were the case, the Military rank and file would be for it.

[roamer_1]

Can we get some "Peace with honor?"

Not like this we can't.

[Cyber Liberty]

Not like this we can't.

Hint:  Short of somebody's unconditional surrender, there never is.  It was folly in the 60's, and the world hasn't changed that much.  Anytime we get into an unholy alliance, this is bound to happen.

[Jazzhead]

I am inclined to believe the Turks.

[Cyber Liberty]

I am inclined to believe the Turks.

Really?  The Kurds released exactly the prisoners most likely to kill Kurds and think of Turks as allies?

[roamer_1]

Hint:  Short of somebody's unconditional surrender, there never is.  It was folly in the 60's, and the world hasn't changed that much.  Anytime we get into an unholy alliance, this is bound to happen.

I agree with that, more or less. But there is no excuse for dropping the ball and abandoning an ally.
No excuse at all. That was, is, and always will be dishonorable.

Better to have never engaged at all? Arguably true.
But once engaged... Honor dictates an ext that will reasonably ensure a fair footing for the ally we leave holding the bag. No one will ever convince me otherwise.

[TomSea]

Is the White House in damage control now? It seems Pence is out there on this.

Pence headed to Turkey as U.S. calls for ceasefire in Syria

Published: Oct 14, 2019 8:19 p.m. ET

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/pence-headed-to-turkey-as-us-calls-for-cease-fire-in-syria-2019-10-14?mod=mw_latestnews

https://twitter.com/vvanwilgenburg/status/1183885644642377729
And Pence made a statement too, others can trace it down, it's at this account.

Yes, all we can hope is to try to salvage something out of this mess.

[Cyber Liberty]

I agree with that, more or less. But there is no excuse for dropping the ball and abandoning an ally.
No excuse at all. That was, is, and always will be dishonorable.

Better to have never engaged at all? Arguably true.
But once engaged... Honor dictates an ext that will reasonably ensure a fair footing for the ally we leave holding the bag. No one will ever convince me otherwise.

And when, exactly, did entanglement with Syrian begin?  There was a "red line" involved.

[TomSea]

@sneakypete

I heard earlier, someone say what will the US soldiers do with our vehicles:

NORTH PRESS AGENCY
@NPA_SY
#Breaking
Military source to North-Press: #US forces destroy their military fortifications and vehicles in al-Tabqa in preparation for withdrawal

https://twitter.com/NPA_SY/status/1183893552784465920

What do you... or in fact, anyone think of that!!??

[Hoodat]

What is the chance of Turkish troops eventually lining up at the Israeli border?  Bringing back the Turkish caliphate.

[Cyber Liberty]

@sneakypete

I heard earlier, someone say what will the US soldiers do with our vehicles:

What do you... or in fact, anyone think of that!!??

Don't leave any materiel behind for the enemy to use. 

[roamer_1]

And when, exactly, did entanglement with Syrian begin?  There was a "red line" involved.

That doesn't matter to me. We are there NOW. Dishonoring our troops is no way to leave.

[roamer_1]

What is the chance of Turkish troops eventually lining up at the Israeli border?  Bringing back the Turkish caliphate.

Eventually 100%.
It is written.

[TomSea]

Trump: Let 'Napoleon Bonaparte' rescue Kurds
[AFP]  AFP•October 14, 2019



Washington (AFP) - Donald Trump suggested Monday that Syria's formerly US-allied Kurds could look to 19th century French emperor Napoleon Bonaparte for protection after the US president ordered the departure of nearly 1,000 US troops from the country.

Turkey was threatening to invade northeastern Syria after launching a military assault on the Kurds last week, leaving more than 300 dead on both sides and sending 160,000 refugees fleeing.

"Anyone who wants to assist Syria in protecting the Kurds is good with me, whether it is Russia, China, or Napoleon Bonaparte. I hope they all do great, we are 7,000 miles away!" Trump wrote on Twitter.

Read more at: https://news.yahoo.com/trump-let-napoleon-bonaparte-rescue-kurds-204450271.html;_ylt=AwrC0F9Y36RdrzAAwwPQtDMD;_ylu=X3oDMTEyODAwZXF2BGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDQjc1MDZfMQRzZWMDc3I-

Maybe they are reigning Trump in, about last Wednesday or so, I read an article that he was starting to get too wild in his conduct and behavior,  maybe so, I'm just saying what is going on.

 RTs≠ endorsement as they say.

Pretty silly thing to say, pretty insensitive to many people. WTH??

[TomSea]

Don't leave any materiel behind for the enemy to use.

 

Thanks!

[Cyber Liberty]

That doesn't matter to me. We are there NOW. Dishonoring our troops is no way to leave.

In that case, we can't leave anywhere at all.  Nowhere.  We are no longer a nation, in any sense of the word, because now we don't truly control our military.  They belong to their host countries, and our foreign policy is under the control of places like Eritrea by virtue of uniformed hostages (their uniforms as well as ours).

[sneakypete]

If that were the case, the Military rank and file would be for it.

@roamer_1

ROFLMAO! Nothing could be further from the truth. Professional soldiers are professional soldiers because they LOVE that bleep! Or probably closer to the truth,are adrenaline junkies.

 I volunteered for every damn-fool thing that came along when I was in the army,and there was always people competing with me to fill that same slot. I had a friend who was awarded the Medal of Honor in VN after running cross-border recon missions into Laos and Cambodia for 6 years,and they finally pulled him off missions after he lost a lung on hilltop fighting off the NVA by himself as the other 5 guys on his team were trying to get to the helicopter.

 
Know how they got him to leave VN? He was told he was going to Camn Rah Bay to help plan a raid,and they they put something in his drink to sedate him. He was hours away from VN before he woke up and found out he was heading back to Bragg,and he WAS PISSED!

BTW,he died of the wounds he received that day in 1969 years later. IIRC,kidney cancer from contaminated blood transfusions.

He's not the only one,either. Truth to tell,other than the MoH,he was typical. Soldiers fight. That's what they spend their lives training to do,and that's what the want to do.

And Colonels and Generals LOVE war because it leads to higher commands and higher commands lead to more promotions. Some of them like to fight,too. My camp commander in VN was a LtCol that had been a tanker during the Korean War,so he didn't have a CIB (Combat Infantryman's Badge) because they are ONLY awarded to infantrymen. So he asked one of our more hotshot Recon Team Leaders,who happened to be another SSG/E-6 if he could go out on a mission with him and his team so he could earn a CIB. Joe,the team leader,told him "Sure,but you have to carry the radio and obey my commands." The LTC agreed,and as it happened I was on radio watch on a hilltop in Laos where we had a remote radio relay when they deployed,and happened to be taking the noon sitrep from the LTC when the microphone was shot out of his hand and we lost contact. Talk about people in the rear area panicking! They all got out ok after a day or two of a running gun battle with the NVA.

This was a man in his 50's who wanted it so badly he agreed to go out under the command of a middle-grade enlisted soldier that was known to take risks and love getting into firefights. He didn't have to do that,and wasn't even supposed to do that,but he did it anyhow BECAUSE he was a soldier,and fighting in wars is what soldiers do.

[sneakypete]

Don't leave any materiel behind for the enemy to use.

@Cyber Liberty

The US Military used to be real fond of loading excess equipment on ships and dropping it in deep water. I was told the reason for this was almost all the stuff coming back needed so much refurbishing that it was cheaper to buy new than to rebuild and update the old,but I am a cynic and think it always had more to do with votes connection to  union jobs and the "we ain't personally paying for it,so it is free stuff" mindset.

Your actual mileage may vary,though.

BTW,that used to be my tag line back on the bad old FR days.

[TomSea]

Here is the FDD, Foundation for Developing Democracies (a lot of people would say these people are "neo-cons"), Long War Journal which gets posted here from time to time, providing some rationale for the Trump decision:

Bill Roggio

1) @realDonaldTrump's withdrawal from Syria is a big foreign policy mistake. The US is selling out yet another ally. But this was a mistake that predated Trump. US chose a poor ally. YPG is not the "poor Kurds" that the media makes it out to be. This is the PKK's Syrian branch.

2) If you insist on pretending the YPG is not the PKK, here are photos of US Special Forces at a "YPG" funeral in 2017. Note the PKK and Oculan flags flying at the funeral, with US armored vehicles flying Old Glory in the background

3) This is disgraceful. The PKK is a specially designated terrorist organization. The PKK is responsible for killing tens of thousands of Turks during a bloody civil war.

4) The US, under the advice and direction of @brett_mcgurk
, chose the "YPG" (PKK) as its ally to fight the Islamic State. There was no consideration of Turkey's very real national security interests and concerns.

5) Let me be perfectly clear: I'm no fan of Erdogan. He has and continues to support terrorist groups, and is using HTS to battle the PKK right now. But if Erdogan was not president and the Turkish military was in power, it likely would doing exactly what he is doing.

6) Ironically, @brett_mcgurk
 also whitewashed the Iraqi Popular Mobilization Forces, the Iranian backed Shia terror groups, as it battled ISIS inside Iraq. The PMF is now killing Iraqis who are protesting. We shouldn't be shocked about what is happening there.

7) When the US, under the Obama admin, pulled support from the Iraqi Kurds (the real good Kurds), as the PMF rolled over them in Kirkuk and elsewhere, where was the media and "experts" outrage. @brett_mcgurk
, who has been vocal about the current betrayal. was silent on that.

8) What is happening in Syria and Iraq today did not happen in a vacuum. These problems stem from a decade of bad foreign policy decisions. After withdrawing from Iraq as the Syrian civil war raged, the Obama admin wanted to outsource the war against ISIS...

9) So the Obama admin outsourced the war & chose terrible partners (PKK in Syria, PMF in Iraq). The US chose terror groups to fight terror groups (Iraq is a bit more complicated as the Iraqi military was part of fight, but Iraqi govt backed PMF & even made it a legitimate unit).

10 The @realDonaldTrump
 admin is not absolved. It has owned this problem for almost 3 years. Like the Obama admin, it made no effort to reform the YPG, make it drop its radical Marxist ideology, and convince the Turkish gov't that it was important it to fight ISIS.

11) Instead, the US military and policy makers that continued to back the YPG/PKK kept kicking this can of problems down the road, without realizing the plug could be pulled at any moment. It was no secret Trump wanted to leave Syria. Why was no effort made to to mitigate this?

12) Context to how we got here is key. There is little context in today's news reports on this topic. Most of it is vapid Trump-bashing. The YPG is treated as innocent Kurds when it is in fact the PKK. This problem was years in the making and did not appear out of the ether.

https://twitter.com/billroggio

It's a hard decision to make alright.... he sums it up well.

https://www.longwarjournal.org/

[roamer_1]

In that case, we can't leave anywhere at all.  Nowhere.  We are no longer a nation, in any sense of the word, because now we don't truly control our military.  They belong to their host countries, and our foreign policy is under the control of places like Eritrea by virtue of uniformed hostages (their uniforms as well as ours).

That is not true. I said 'exit strategy'... Easing out over months or a year or two. Buttressing against the failures that might predictably happen in the vacuum of our absence.
You cannot just walk off and let the cards fall where they may.

[Cyber Liberty]

That is not true. I said 'exit strategy'... Easing out over months or a year or two. Buttressing against the failures that might predictably happen in the vacuum of our absence.
You cannot just walk off and let the cards fall where they may.

You make an important distinction.  It would be nice if the local warlords didn't decide to improve their street cred by shooting at us on the way out.  I think this has a lot to do with why we don't just do as you suggest.   

[roamer_1]

You make an important distinction.  It would be nice if the local warlords didn't decide to improve their street cred by shooting at us on the way out.  I think this has a lot to do with why we don't just do as you suggest.   

Meh... It ain't all that hard. The only ones we care about there is the Kurds... Tell em straight up we are getting out and find out how much time they need to get ready for that. 90 days? alright, 90 days... what do we need to do before we leave? how do we evac them or strengthen them to withstand before the fact? Do all that and ease on out. Seeya.
 You don't just say, "Oh, by the way, we're out of here day after tomorrow, Sorry if you're gonna get slaughtered... That's on you..." That's bullcrap.

[InHeavenThereIsNoBeer]

In that case, we can't leave anywhere at all.  Nowhere.  We are no longer a nation, in any sense of the word, because now we don't truly control our military.  They belong to their host countries, and our foreign policy is under the control of places like Eritrea by virtue of uniformed hostages (their uniforms as well as ours).

This is, IMO, a key point.  Maybe we owe the Syrian Kurds something, and maybe we don't.  But if we do, how much, and for how long?

Another poster on one of these threads mentioned that we ducked out on Viet Nam.  That's true.  But we've also stayed in Korea, honoring "our" promise for generations.  I put quotes around the word 'our' because I wasn't born when that promise(?) was made, like roughly half of our population.

Were promises made to the Syrian Kurds?  If so, by which administration?  Our system of government is not exactly a secret, so no nation should be stupid enough to assume that we would keep "our" word for more than about four years.

[Side note:  I think the trump admin screwed up a bit here.  Did we really need to pull out last week, or could we have stuck around a bit and secured a more orderly transition?  I'm all for getting our troops the freak out of the ME, but this pull out stinks of Sir Robin]

[kevindavis007]

Says the isolationist idiot