Author Topic: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria  (Read 24769 times)

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Offline Formerly Once-Ler

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Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
« Reply #375 on: October 13, 2019, 07:47:55 pm »
I thought they already did that.  I do see your point, though.  But...last I heard ISIS executes all prisoners in ugly ways.  Am I mistaken?
@Cyber Liberty
I don't think you are wrong, but I don't know . We current abide by rules of war.  We as a nation should discuss it before we abandon those rules.  I never served in the military and I would prefer the people who fight and have fought decide if "taking no prisoners" is an effective tool to win.  If the Pentagon tells me its a good or bad policy I'll take them at their word...much as I did when they said "Good Lord, Mr. President, you're gonna undo all our progress against ISIS by pulling out of Syria.  There are thousands of ISIS POWs being held there."

In the movie Batman The Dark Knight Harvey Dent says "You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain."  I hope that is not true.  I detest ISIS for their religious extremism and tactics...I don't want us to become more like them. 

Offline 240B

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Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
« Reply #376 on: October 13, 2019, 07:53:36 pm »
Does Immigration & Naturalization have a rule that prevents radical muslims from immigrating here as long as we have troops in their home country?
No. I was literally trained to fight Muslims. My warfare training consisted of mock villages blaring out the Muslim call to prayer. The guys we shot (with blanks in training) were all wearing Muslim garb. We were trained to kill Muslims.

And yet when I go to the VA, more than 50% of the doctors and psychologists there were Muslims. I was speaking to them in the few words of broken Arabic that I know. Talk about a mind f**k! I went from killing them to depending on them for medical treatment? How can I confide in them, or tell them what happened. It took me a while to adapt. But that is the U.S. Government. Nothing makes any sense.
You cannot "COEXIST" with people who want to kill you.
If they kill their own with no conscience, there is nothing to stop them from killing you.
Rational fear and anger at vicious murderous Islamic terrorists is the same as irrational antisemitism, according to the Leftists.

Offline skeeter

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Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
« Reply #377 on: October 13, 2019, 07:58:22 pm »
No. I was literally trained to fight Muslims. My warfare training consisted of mock villages blaring out the Muslim call to prayer. The guys we shot (with blanks in training) were all wearing Muslim garb. We were trained to kill Muslims.

And yet when I go to the VA, more than 50% of the doctors and psychologists there were Muslims. I was speaking to them in the few words of broken Arabic that I know. Talk about a mind f**k! I went from killing them to depending on them for medical treatment? How can I confide in them, or tell them what happened. It took me a while to adapt. But that is the U.S. Government. Nothing makes any sense.

Ilhan Omar is a perfect example of who we are importing now. Not all, of course, but many who hate us.

Its why I stopped buying W Bush etc line about fighting them over there while he and others endorsed bringing over all comers without any regard to who they are and what they believe.

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
« Reply #378 on: October 13, 2019, 08:02:24 pm »
@Cyber Liberty
I don't think you are wrong, but I don't know . We current abide by rules of war.  We as a nation should discuss it before we abandon those rules.  I never served in the military and I would prefer the people who fight and have fought decide if "taking no prisoners" is an effective tool to win.  If the Pentagon tells me its a good or bad policy I'll take them at their word...much as I did when they said "Good Lord, Mr. President, you're gonna undo all our progress against ISIS by pulling out of Syria.  There are thousands of ISIS POWs being held there."

In the movie Batman The Dark Knight Harvey Dent says "You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain."  I hope that is not true.  I detest ISIS for their religious extremism and tactics...I don't want us to become more like them.

I agree we should not "be like them," but IIRC, we and Japan took prisoners during WW2, but that didn't stop them from fighting to the last man every chance they got.  I'm sort of surprised to hear that an enemy who prides themselves for being willing to use suicide as a protocol would allow themselves to be captured in the first place.  Seems like they are faking surrender, in order to get a better shot at our soldiers.

Additionally, I'd say there's a high likelihood that if ISIS prisoners are "escaping," it's probably on purpose.  Syria could be letting them go with a promise to not fight Assad (which would prove Assad is a bigger fool than I thought). 

Way more questions than answers about what's going on in that shithole region.  Kurds are spread out through Turkey, Syria, Iraq and Iran.  Is it wrong for me to hope all five parties (those 4 + the Kurds) in the conflict lose?  Probably.
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Offline jpsb

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Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
« Reply #379 on: October 13, 2019, 08:04:01 pm »


@TomSea

The same could have been said for Iraq under Saddam Hussein. There were even Jewish Temples and Christian churches there,with Iraqui soldiers to guard them and the people who went to them to worship.

None of which stopped Boy Jorge from declaring war on Iraq to please his Saudi pimps.

George W Bush was/is an idiot.

Online roamer_1

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Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
« Reply #380 on: October 13, 2019, 08:12:03 pm »
Against a NATO Ally?

So if Turkey declared war against Israel, we'd have to help Turkey?
Oh hell no.

Offline jpsb

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Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
« Reply #381 on: October 13, 2019, 08:15:20 pm »
@jpsb

HOW did Trump "Really step into it this time"? Is he,or the US their daddy? If not,WHY are WE responsible for the Kurds? Isn't there a big building in NYC called the UN that is supposed to take responsibility for situations like this?

@sneakypete

Because he gave permission to Turkey's ErdoÄŸan to invade Syria so the Turks would wipe out the Kurds.
Bigest betrayal of an ally since we let the Vet-con slaughter our S. Vietnam allies. And he is facing and intense
black lash from both just about everyone except the Always Trumpers. At the very moment he needs all the
support he can get he pulls off a foreign policy disaster. And for what, Turkey? Screw Turkey. This might very
well cost him his presidency.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2019, 08:16:31 pm by jpsb »

Offline Formerly Once-Ler

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Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
« Reply #382 on: October 13, 2019, 08:19:57 pm »
I agree we should not "be like them," but IIRC, we and Japan took prisoners during WW2, but that didn't stop them from fighting to the last man every chance they got.  I'm sort of surprised to hear that an enemy who prides themselves for being willing to use suicide as a protocol would allow themselves to be captured in the first place.  Seems like they are faking surrender, in order to get a better shot at our soldiers.

Additionally, I'd say there's a high likelihood that if ISIS prisoners are "escaping," it's probably on purpose.  Syria could be letting them go with a promise to not fight Assad (which would prove Assad is a bigger fool than I thought).


As I said, better minds than mine will have to justify or condemn taking prisoners.

Quote
Way more questions than answers about what's going on in that shithole region.  Kurds are spread out through Turkey, Syria, Iraq and Iran.  Is it wrong for me to hope all five parties (those 4 + the Kurds) in the conflict lose?  Probably.
I'd say out of the 5 my sympathy goes to the Kurds, despite their refusal to help us invade Normandy.

Offline jpsb

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Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
« Reply #383 on: October 13, 2019, 08:22:42 pm »
I agree we should not "be like them," but IIRC, we and Japan took prisoners during WW2, but that didn't stop them from fighting to the last man every chance they got.  I'm sort of surprised to hear that an enemy who prides themselves for being willing to use suicide as a protocol would allow themselves to be captured in the first place.  Seems like they are faking surrender, in order to get a better shot at our soldiers.

Additionally, I'd say there's a high likelihood that if ISIS prisoners are "escaping," it's probably on purpose.  Syria could be letting them go with a promise to not fight Assad (which would prove Assad is a bigger fool than I thought). 

Way more questions than answers about what's going on in that shithole region.  Kurds are spread out through Turkey, Syria, Iraq and Iran.  Is it wrong for me to hope all five parties (those 4 + the Kurds) in the conflict lose?  Probably.

It is a well known fact that Turkey's sides with ISIS and allowed them free passage into and out of Turkey. So no Assad is no the one freeing them Turkey is. Trump got rolled by ErdoÄŸan.

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
« Reply #384 on: October 13, 2019, 08:41:14 pm »
So if Turkey declared war against Israel, we'd have to help Turkey?
Oh hell no.

I'd say we'd not hold Turkey's coat while they do it, no.  We would have to pick which Ally to side with, which is probably why George Washington thought of alliances as "entangling."

We have conflicting alliances all over the damned world, nowhere worse than in the ME and SW Asia.  Is this tenable?
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
« Reply #385 on: October 13, 2019, 08:48:44 pm »
It is a well known fact that Turkey's sides with ISIS and allowed them free passage into and out of Turkey. So no Assad is no the one freeing them Turkey is. Trump got rolled by ErdoÄŸan.

Somebody is "holding" the "prisoners" that are supposedly escaping.  I'd submit it certainly is possible Turkey's liberating them as they're going along, maybe even probable, but what kind of fool would house prisoners near the front line, where the enemy can be tempted to do just that? 

Speaking of "ISIS prisoners," what's this noise I hear about countries refusing to take back their expats who went to join ISIS?  Why the Hell not?  They broke the laws of those countries, nobody but Moslems and bed-wetting liberals are going to complain about their being locked up until they rot in their countries of citizenship.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2019, 08:50:35 pm by Cyber Liberty »
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Offline TomSea

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Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
« Reply #386 on: October 13, 2019, 09:04:26 pm »


As I said, better minds than mine will have to justify or condemn taking prisoners.
I'd say out of the 5 my sympathy goes to the Kurds, despite their refusal to help us invade Normandy.

@Once-Ler

Kurdish WWII veterans: Trump wasn’t born when we fought the Nazis

https://www.rudaw.net/english/kurdistan/13102019

Quote
Delzar, who was born in 1920 and is a well-known Kurdish poet, became a member of the Iraq Levies, a minority scout force established by the British during the First World War to control Iraq, in 1943.

“The levies were mainly Assyrians and Kurds and a smaller number of Arabs,” Delzar told Rudaw. “I was the 8,000th Kurd who joined the levies during the Second World War. I joined the levies on 24th of February 1943.”

Actually, it appears some Kurds did fight the Nazis, maybe this article is saying when Iraq was part of the British Empire, Iraq must have produced some fighters for the empire including Kurds.

But we send these soldiers and arms and planes to the Saudis, I don't know about saying Turkey sides with ISIS, etc.

But, I'd say Turkey and Saudi Arabia have surely fielded a number of soldiers for ISIS, someone must fund them too; surely some of that comes from Saudi Arabia if only from individual citizens.


Offline TomSea

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Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
« Reply #387 on: October 13, 2019, 09:10:38 pm »
Now, the Kurds will be aligned with the Damascus Government, Iran will have a clear path to Israel. If the Kurds had their "autonomous" or own-governed area,  I read one analyst say, we could watch Iran from there. Now, even though, we have the al Tanf, Syria small base to watch Iran, I don't see how we can keep it but. Not only are we on the outs with the Kurds, I don't see how they can be our friends any time soon.  But this other is Israel's worries, not ours I suppose.

Offline Formerly Once-Ler

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Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
« Reply #388 on: October 13, 2019, 09:11:39 pm »
@Once-Ler

Kurdish WWII veterans: Trump wasn’t born when we fought the Nazis

https://www.rudaw.net/english/kurdistan/13102019

Actually, it appears some Kurds did fight the Nazis, maybe this article is saying when Iraq was part of the British Empire, Iraq must have produced some fighters for the empire including Kurds.


Trump lied to the American people? 

I'm gonna start a list

Trump Lies
#1 Kurds did fight the Nazis
#2

OK.  Let's hope that doesn't happen again, but if it does I'm ready and waiting.

Offline Formerly Once-Ler

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Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
« Reply #389 on: October 13, 2019, 09:14:58 pm »
Somebody is "holding" the "prisoners" that are supposedly escaping.  I'd submit it certainly is possible Turkey's liberating them as they're going along, maybe even probable, but what kind of fool would house prisoners near the front line, where the enemy can be tempted to do just that? 
The Kurds in NE Syria were holding the ISIS prisoners

Offline TomSea

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Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
« Reply #390 on: October 13, 2019, 09:16:53 pm »
The Nato charter with Turkey would probably demand something like Israel actually attack Turkey for us to side with Turkey.

That seems incredibly remote at this time. Also, Israel has real perceived enemies in Iran, Israel has bombed Syria over 100 times in the past year, airstrikes on Iranian interests... it's kind of unreal but true.

So, at this point, Turkey vs. Israel is certainly a fantasy.  Anything is possible I suppose.

Offline TomSea

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Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
« Reply #391 on: October 13, 2019, 09:21:33 pm »
Turkey vs. Russia-backed Syria? I think this confrontation will not go anywhere now....maybe the Administration knew this? Hard to say, pity anyone died. It's hard to imagine these two sides will get it on and Russia is a bit friendly with Turkey actually, they've worked to cultivate that, provided an air defense system for them.  Maybe Turkey keeps some land in the North.  So my friend told me, Turkey already took some Syrian land in the past, "al Hayat", that looked like it happened some time ago, I didn't feel like researching it but I did see that there is some area in Turkey called al Hayat.

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
« Reply #392 on: October 13, 2019, 09:25:38 pm »
The Kurds in NE Syria were holding the ISIS prisoners

If the troops holding the prisoners are "irregulars," then could they be reasonably blamed if they shot them all before their position gets overrun?  The Kurds, not having a country, are not "regular Army."

But I agree, deciding the morality of that is wayyyy over my pay grade.

Meanwhile, all foreign fighters should be thrown in prisons in their home countries.  If some chap from London decides to joyride to Syria so he can join ISIS, he should be hanging out somewhere under the Tower of London.  Omar's constituents should be in a MN prison.  This is a bit of a side-issue that's cropped up with the Euros because they don't seem to want to do it, but instead fob it off on the Kurds.
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
« Reply #393 on: October 13, 2019, 09:27:26 pm »
Turkey vs. Russia-backed Syria? I think this confrontation will not go anywhere now....maybe the Administration knew this? Hard to say, pity anyone died. It's hard to imagine these two sides will get it on and Russia is a bit friendly with Turkey actually, they've worked to cultivate that, provided an air defense system for them.  Maybe Turkey keeps some land in the North.  So my friend told me, Turkey already took some Syrian land in the past, "al Hayat", that looked like it happened some time ago, I didn't feel like researching it but I did see that there is some area in Turkey called al Hayat.

Maybe in the end this will drive a wedge between turkey and Russia?   :shrug:
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Offline TomSea

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Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
« Reply #394 on: October 13, 2019, 09:48:26 pm »
Quote
Matthew RJ Brodsky
@RJBrodsky
If this happens, Trump will have essentially offered up over a third of #Syria to #Iran. Makes you wonder what nuclear deal he envisions with Tehran, besides one that contains the word “strong” in the title.
Quote Tweet
Quote
Raf Sanchez
@rafsanchez
 Â· 4h
It's very early and the situation is very fluid.

But it may be that we see a fullscale Kurdish surrender to the Assad regime tonight. Abandoned by the US, it looks like SDF will try to spare their cities from Turkish onslaught by allowing Syrian forces to take them over.
Show this thread


https://twitter.com/RJBrodsky/status/1183452093203537920

What it appears we are doing is not good for Israel, maybe one can just say, "well, that's their problem".

So, try to see the truth, a lot of hysteria, I find it doubtful, Turkey will square off with Syria if Russia backs the Assad army with air support....

So, conceivably, we could see this crisis end with not that much loss of life, that's a bit hard to say.

Here's a sharp picture of a Kurd Militia at a ceremony, March of this year:


https://www.jpost.com/Breaking-News/US-says-reports-of-killing-of-Kurdish-politician-extremely-troubling-604526

If they are Muslims, they are "Secular" Muslims... not to be confused with radicals, a tiny amount of Kurds have gone and fought with ISIS, lots of ins and outs.

Check this out!

Quote
Ragıp Soylu
@ragipsoylu
·
37m
So, before signing off:

• US forces, presumably, are still in Manbij, Deirezzour, Raqqa
• Several reports claim SDF/YPG’s deal with Assad doesn’t include Deirezzour and Raqqa
• And credible reports say US jets struck Assad forces in Deirezzour TONIGHT.

So, what’s up?

https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu

Quote
Ragıp Soylu
@ragipsoylu
·
1h
NEW — U.S. forces in the West of Manbij blocked Assad regime forces from entering the town — according to a report by pro-Assad Al Mayadeen, citing Kurdish sources
Ragıp Soylu
@ragipsoylu
·
1h
US forces evacuated their base in Kobani, Turkish security sources tell Anadolu
Ragıp Soylu
@ragipsoylu
·
1h
Erdogan seems okay with Assad taking over below the Turkish safe zone:

“[What happens] beyond the 32km deep safe zone is up to U.S. and [Assad] regime. Because regime wants to be in. We may only take steps to provide logistical support to US-led coalition”, he said today.

https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu

Amazing stuff there.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2019, 09:50:44 pm by TomSea »

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
« Reply #395 on: October 13, 2019, 09:55:06 pm »
@TomSea  Maybe people are having to decide, who do they want angry with them?  I'm getting tired of people agreeing they want to be mad at the US.
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Offline TomSea

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Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
« Reply #396 on: October 13, 2019, 10:02:01 pm »
Quote
Meet the Press
@MeetThePress
WATCH: Turkey using militias to advance in Syria, including former Al Qaeda and ISIS members “close to U.S. forces” #MTP #IfItsSunday

@RichardEngel
: "The situation is not how it has been portrayed over the last several days as a conventional Turkish assault."


https://twitter.com/MeetThePress/status/1183369572142977024

Twitter is like play-by-play,  I think that is Chuck Todd in the video of the above, and like him or dislike him, this Richard Engel fellow has been doing  pretty well over there.  What I'm saying, is I think he had a slant but still might provide good info.

I mean, the above is "Meet the Press", not perfect but....it's not like this is some obscure website saying this.

One might watch this woman, Jenan Moussa, video, she's actually been going into areas afflicted, I take it this is all authentic, I almost fear for her safety:


https://twitter.com/jenanmoussa/status/1183469412592050176
« Last Edit: October 13, 2019, 10:12:18 pm by TomSea »

Offline TomSea

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I was so looking toward to 2020 reelecting Trump and taking back the House, Trump as totally blown it in Syria
by betraying the Kurds.

Yes, deeply disappointing, I could feel different some time in the future, next Summer, whenever but for now, I think I could vote for one of 4 or 5 Senators over him....but it all takes some thought,  to see how things proceed.

Too bad, the Democrats can't even come up with someone who is reasonable, in the center, they can't even do that. We'll see how 2020 goes.

Offline Formerly Once-Ler

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Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
« Reply #398 on: October 13, 2019, 10:45:29 pm »
If the troops holding the prisoners are "irregulars," then could they be reasonably blamed if they shot them all before their position gets overrun?  The Kurds, not having a country, are not "regular Army."
That's a very good point and there is no guarantee the Kurdish government would prosecute war crimes against Kurdish guards who shot their ISIS POWs.  For all we know they did shoot some or even most of them while they report a couple hundred fled.  I don't know how many prisoners they had.


Offline sneakypete

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Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
« Reply #399 on: October 13, 2019, 10:49:09 pm »
I don't have an answer for that, but I did want let you know how much I admire your manly approval of shooting surrendering soldiers.

@Once-Ler

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