Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria

[Jazzhead]

Good article, sound perspective, deserves a bump.

The Middle East is the intractable problem.  Tribalism at its most destructive. Migrants from the area fleeing to the Western world.

And many of 'em are absorbed by Turkey.   They can turn the spigot on if they want to. 

Trump's instincts are right that we ought not have boots on the ground.  Let others, more dependent than we are on their filthy oil luchre ,  deal with these tribes and their centuries-old animosities. 

[TomSea]

The Trump administration said it will not abandon the Kurds. This idiot Horowitz is not saying this. This idiot Horowitz is talking about expanding Iran's power.

Let's not forget others who have said "Well, this is tribal", duh, I didn't vote for Obama II. We don't need Jihadi Don building up ISIS. 

Thankfully, this is not what the administration is standing for.

[jpsb]

Worth repeating AND remembering.

Pulling the troops out of Syria is one thing. Green lighting Turkey to invade Syria so the Turks can wipe out our Kurd allies is an entirely
different thing.

[jpsb]

@Texas Yellow Rose

Great, thanks so much for that.

Complete Bull Sh*t. Ask the Armenians in Turkey, oh wait

Under ErdoÄŸan the once secular Turkey is becoming a (radical) Islamic state. Screw Turkey, boot them out of NATO.

[TomSea]

Middle East
US: “We will not abandon the Kurds;” calls on Turkey to stop attack in Syria; but is rebuffed by Erdogan
Laurie Mylroie Laurie Mylroie


US Secretary of Defense Mark Esper at a Pentagon briefing, Aug. 28, 2019. (Photo: AFP/Alex Wong)

WASHINGTON DC (Kurdistan 24) – Amid mounting bipartisan criticism of the limited US response to Turkey’s cross-border attack into northeast Syria, the US signaled a major shift in policy on Friday.

Read More: Trump defends Syria decision, backs refugees’ move to 'safe zone,' as Congressional criticism grows 

The shift was signaled in briefings given by senior officials, first by the Pentagon and then by the Treasury Department.

At the Pentagon, Secretary of Defense Mark Esper and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Gen. Mark Milley, strongly and publicly expressed their opposition to the assault, while affirming that the US would not abandon its Kurdish allies.

Read more at: https://www.kurdistan24.net/en/news/746b11d9-ad16-41c4-ad7d-e20616ad13a7

Even Ragip Soylu, as close to a reasonable defender of Turkey is saying:

Ragıp Soylu
@ragipsoylu
I’m 100% sure, more than half of the people who tweet about Turkey’s incursion in Syria really don’t care about the civilian deaths, or whatever catastrophe Syrians will get through.

THEY JUST WANNA GET AT TRUMP. That’s the only thing they care about. 

And that’s sick.

https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu/status/1182764115447734272

Be careful not to get caught up in the hysteria, I want the truth.... the least, we can try to do is to be fair.

Ragıp Soylu
@ragipsoylu
·
14h
There are at least two senior US officials who told US media that US forces WERE NOT UNDER ATTACK IN KOBANE.

How many people who tweeted Newsweek story will share this information?

https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu/status/1182763353405558784

I came across Ragip in the past, he seems to have some integrity actually, not plugging for his side, we need to examine the info.

The initial reporting, "greenlighting the invasion",  I am not sure about that... if the initial reporting is in error.... hopefully, this stuff goes to the UN or places at least, where a fair look can be given it.

I'm definitely not with those who are just blaming Trump or even the Turks. A lot of misinformation about.

[jpsb]

Even Ragip Soylu, as close to a reasonable defender of Turkey is saying:

Be careful not to get caught up in the hysteria, I want the truth.... the least, we can try to do is to be fair.
I came across Ragip in the past, he seems to have some integrity actually, not plugging for his side, we need to examine the info.

The initial reporting, "greenlighting the invasion",  I am not sure about that... if the initial reporting is in error.... hopefully, this stuff goes to the UN or places at least, where a fair look can be given it.

I'm definitely not with those who are just blaming Trump or even the Turks. A lot of misinformation about.

@TomSea

Trump has a phone call with Turkey's ErdoÄŸan. ErdoÄŸan asks Trump to move US forces out of the area because his is planning to invade
and attack the Kurds. The next day to the surprise of EVERYONE Trump announces that he is ordering US forces out of the area. Now
you made not thing that is "green lighted" but everyone else knows it is.  The only "but" is that the blow back on his horrible decision
has been so huge it's forced him to rethink the issue and now he trying to walk it back. But walking it back will not be easy and will
depend on events on the ground in Syria. We'll see how many Kurds are killed and how many cities, towns and villages are "cleaned" of
Kurds and Christians.

[TomSea]

@TomSea

Trump has a phone call with Turkey's ErdoÄŸan. ErdoÄŸan asks Trump to move US forces out of the area because his is planning to invade
and attack the Kurds. The next day to the surprise of EVERYONE Trump announces that he is ordering US forces out of the area. Now
you made not thing that is "green lighted" but everyone else knows it is.  The only "but" is that the blow back on his horrible decision
has been so huge it's forced him to rethink the issue and now he trying to walk it back. But walking it back will not be easy and will
depend on events on the ground in Syria. We'll see how many Kurds are killed and how many cities, towns and villages are "cleaned" of
Kurds and Christians.

Charles Lister
@Charles_Lister
DOD working hard to back away from being accused of "green-lighting" #Turkey's cross-border campaign into NE #Syria.

SecDef Esper just said "once #Turkey announced its offensive" we moved our troops away for "force protection... We're not abandoning #SDF."

That's BS, frankly.

https://twitter.com/Charles_Lister/status/1182690396314505216

The above reporter certainly agrees with you.  These are hard decisions. I guess, you are right but things are moving so fast at this point.  Also, we didn't have many troops there to begin with.

Anyway, I'm not with the apologists, I am for gathering as much info as we can.

[jpsb]

The above reporter certainly agrees with you.  These are hard decisions. I guess, you are right but things are moving so fast at this point.  Also, we didn't have many troops there to begin with.

Anyway, I'm not with the apologists, I am for gathering as much info as we can.

@TomSea

Well you are doing a great job of gathering info, much appreciated.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

Here's a story by an instructor at the Army War College who is not a politician nor a reporter.

Missing the Bigger Picture in Kurdish Syria

President Trump’s decision to withdraw our few troops from the Syria-Turkey border area earned him considerable criticism from allies.  Senator Lindsey Graham said the decision is “a catastrophe in the making.” Representative Lin Cheney said it’s “a catastrophic mistake.”  Former UN Secretary Nikki Haley said, “We must always have the backs of our allies.”

President Trump has answered these critics.  The Kurds were engaged in a contractual relationship fighting the Islamic State (ISIS).  They were well paid and equipped for their fighting, much like any mercenary group.  Further, they were given three years to consolidate eastern Syria to feed their long-held desire to form an independent Kurdistan with other Kurds in Turkey, Iraq, and Iran.  They failed.

The Kurds’ problem, and by association that of the U.S., is that regional powers like Turkey and to a lesser extent Iran and Syria have long held the Kurds in disdain.  In fact, Turkey considers the Syrian Kurds to be allies of the Kurdistan Workers' Party or (PKK), which are Turkish Kurds and terrorists fighting for independence for the last 35 years.   

Basically, the Kurds hijacked our fight with ISIS to feed their regional civil war to earn independence.

President Trump is aware of that agenda and is also trying to constrain American hawks who want to use our military willy-nilly across the world.  Remember that Trump frequently said during his 2016 campaign that he wants to escape from endless wars and bring our fighters home.   
https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2019/10/missing_the_bigger_picture_in_kurdish_syria.html

[Right_in_Virginia]

The Trump administration said it will not abandon the Kurds. This idiot Horowitz is not saying this. This idiot Horowitz is talking about expanding Iran's power.  Let's not forget others who have said "Well, this is tribal", duh, I didn't vote for Obama II. We don't need Jihadi Don building up ISIS.     

This "idiot" is on the side of supporting the Kurds by proxy @TomSea  He is also on the side of reining in Turkey.

And all wars and terrorism in the Middle East ARE tribal, and the next Sunni iteration of ISIS is already underway, whether we're in Syria or not.  It's in their blood.

You appear to have missed the first paragraph .... permit me to add some breaks to make it easier to read .... then please tell me what you disagree with since this is the nub of the "idiot's" thesis on what our strategy in the quicksand of the Middle East should be:

A simple analogy vividly depicts the lesson lost on most in the Republican foreign policy establishment who believe we need American soldiers left precariously and indefinitely on the ground in tribal civil wars in order to keep us safe.

When there are killer whales, sharks, snakes, and scorpions in a cesspool fighting each other, you don’t dive head-first into the tank to try to fight one of those dangers without understanding how you will survive the others or avoid tipping the balance of power to the other beasts.

You stand outside from a position of strength, define your interests, and zap any one of the adversaries that comes out of the tank and inside your zone of interest.

As to Horowitz's reference to Iran and our (inadvertent) role in helping them ... here's his bottom line.  Let me know if you disagree with this.

But nobody has explained how, since we fought the Sunni insurgency, we were not the ones who empowered Iranian hegemony in the region for free. With our troops out of the region, Russia and Iran would have to face the Sunni (ISIS) backlash without us keeping it in check for them.

[Right_in_Virginia]

I wish you'd stop spamming threads with post after post of excerpts @TomSea   They break up discussion and prevent debate.

[kevindavis007]

Well, either way, we will be fighitng ISIS either in the Middle East, Europe, or here. I prefer that we fight them in the Middle East.

[Right_in_Virginia]

Missing the Bigger Picture in Kurdish Syria
American Thinker, Oct 12, 2019, Lt. Col. Robert L. Maginnis, US Army Ret.

[...]

President Trump has answered these critics.  The Kurds were engaged in a contractual relationship fighting the Islamic State (ISIS).  They were well paid and equipped for their fighting, much like any mercenary group.  Further, they were given three years to consolidate eastern Syria to feed their long-held desire to form an independent Kurdistan with other Kurds in Turkey, Iraq, and Iran.  They failed.

The Kurds’ problem, and by association that of the U.S., is that regional powers like Turkey and to a lesser extent Iran and Syria have long held the Kurds in disdain.  In fact, Turkey considers the Syrian Kurds to be allies of the Kurdistan Workers' Party or (PKK), which are Turkish Kurds and terrorists fighting for independence for the last 35 years.   

Basically, the Kurds hijacked our fight with ISIS to feed their regional civil war to earn independence.

[...]

The pregnant question that Trump’s critics don’t answer is: Will ISIS return to fight another day?  Not necessarily.  Keep in mind that al Qaeda and ISIS are in many more places today than when U.S. forces first pursued them in the mountains of Afghanistan and in the northern plains of Iraq.  Also, what remains of ISIS is trapped in a small area in Syria and if they make a ruckus that can be easily handled by Turkish and Russian airstrikes, and they won’t bother with concerns about collateral damage.



Read more:  https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2019/10/missing_the_bigger_picture_in_kurdish_syria.html


Lt. Col. Bob Maginnis graduated from the U.S. Military Academy and is an instructor at the Army War College. He oversees a team of national security experts in the Pentagon and has more than 800 published articles on national security and geopolitical issues. His most recent books are Progressive Evil (2019), and Alliance of Evil (2018).

[Right_in_Virginia]

FTA

Trump’s critics can learn about Middle Eastern culture by watching Lawrence of Arabia.  Remember the first time that Lawrence goes into the desert his guide stops at some oasis.  As the guide drinks from the well, a dark figure on a camel rides fast towards them and then shoots dead Lawrence’s guide. Lawrence is stunned and asks why the Arab killed the guide.  The Arab responds, “He is Hazzami. He is nothing.  He knew that he could not drink from our well.” 

[Right_in_Virginia]

Interesting comments at the end of the article ..

https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2019/10/missing_the_bigger_picture_in_kurdish_syria_comments.html#comments-container

[Right_in_Virginia]

Well, either way, we will be fighitng ISIS either in the Middle East, Europe, or here.

Not if we stand aside and let Iran and Russia play whack a Sunni for a while.  Why we're helping Russia and Iran save treasure and blood is a question no one dares ask, never mind answer @kevindavis

[TomSea]

Complete Bull Sh*t. Ask the Armenians in Turkey, oh wait

Under ErdoÄŸan the once secular Turkey is becoming a (radical) Islamic state. Screw Turkey, boot them out of NATO.

Okay, I was just thanking them for participating, but consider this and I am for the SDF I will say but to ignore what the whole scenario is, is not helpful.

And I learned really some of this from RIV's questioning and I've seen it some in other places as well and I am grateful for their input:

The 30-year armed conflict between Turkey and the PKK -- which the United States and the European Union also have designated a terrorist organization -- has claimed an estimated 40,000 lives. A two-year ceasefire ended in July when a suicide bomb ripped through a group of activists in the southeastern town of Suruc as they were preparing to deliver aid to the Syrian town of Kobani.

https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/national/turks-military-has-killed-68-pkk-terrorists

I won't make analogies nor anything like that to complicate the matter, the above pretty well speaks for itself and the PKK/YPG (people's protection units) were signatories to the founding of the SDF.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_Democratic_Forces

Now, as Chas. Lister said, the guy I quoted, this has been a ticking time bomb, maybe the PKK doesn't deserve their terror designation but as of now, these are just the facts of the matter.

We wouldn't take kindly to some group in Canada or Mexico, involved in a conflict with the USA that had killed 40,000 people.

Just getting all of the facts up.

I still say we should protect the SDF, no-fly zone or something but this does appear to be a more complex matter than the Turks just riding in wearing black hats.

[TomSea]

Kurdish party leader 'killed in Turkish ambush' in Syria
The New Arab


The secretary-general of the Future Syria Party, Hevrin Khalaf was reportedly killed on the road to the city of Qamishli, reports said on Saturday.

A senior Kurdish politician and party leader was killed during an intense Turkish military offensive against Kurdish fighters in Syria, local news reported on Saturday.

Hevrin Khalaf, the secretary-general of the Future Syria Party, was killed during an ambush by Turkish-backed groups during an attempt to capture a point on the international M4 road, Kurdistan 24 reported.

Read more at: https://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/news/2019/10/12/kurdish-party-leader-killed-in-turkish-ambush-in-syria

[sneakypete]

I would like for someone to explain to me how/why there are so many Muslim women who are powerful and prominent politicians. This seems to run contrary to what I have been lead to belief are the basic beliefs of Islam.

[kevindavis007]

Not if we stand aside and let Iran and Russia play whack a Sunni for a while.  Why we're helping Russia and Iran save treasure and blood is a question no one dares ask, never mind answer @kevindavis

Were are helping Russia and Iran by increasing their presence in the Middle East? They are not going to be fighitng ISIS or the Sunni, they are going to help the butcher of Damascus.

[mystery-ak]

Syrian Kurds commander to US: 'You are leaving us to be slaughtered'
By Marty Johnson - 10/12/19 01:38 PM EDT

The commander of U.S.-backed Syrian Kurdish forces reportedly told an American diplomat on Thursday that the United States is "leaving us to be slaughtered," days after President Trump withdrew troops from northern Syria.

CNN reported Saturday that Gen. Mazloum Kobani Abdi told William Roebuck, deputy special envoy to the Global Coalition to Defeat ISIS, that "You have given up on us. You are leaving us to be slaughtered."

Kobani is the head of Kurdish forces known as the Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF), who have been vital allies to U.S. in the war on terror and fight against the Islamic State, or ISIS.


"You are not willing to protect the people, but you do not want another force to come and protect us," Kobani told the U.S. envoy, according to CNN, which obtained an internal readout of the meeting.

more
https://thehill.com/policy/defense/army/465533-syrian-kurds-commander-to-us-commander-you-are-leaving-us-to-be

[TomSea]

Horrible, Videos of Turk side, their allies executing SDF soldiers.

https://twitter.com/Joyce_Karam/status/1183069837221941248

Joyce Karam
@Joyce_Karam
Horrible videos emerging from NE #Syria today of #Turkey proxies field-executing SDF fighters.

You can hear one saying “another pig gone.” Warning, this is a graphic thread of videos:

Dirtiest war in my lifetime, actually, that's pretty hard to say really, almost all wars have had their atrocities but this has been something else...

Mainly because Fundamental Islam is Hateful.

Brian May, guitarist for Queen was talking about the bombing at the Ariana Grande concert in Manchester England, and he was just stressing how these people were full of hate,

And our soldiers die, green on blue, really.

At first, when I heard about this stuff 5 years ago, my thought was really, hell, get the Christians out of there.

It's a delicate situation, in the heat of the moment, heck yeah, I'd feel like sending our bombers on to them.

Erdogan is scheduled to come to US on Nov. 12th, I can't see that happening, I'd like Turkey to be our friend, it was making progress in the past.

[Elderberry]

Lawrence Person's BattleSwarm Blog 10/12/2019

Following the withdraw of a small number of U.S. troops in the area (I’ve seen estimates range from 25 to 100), Turkey has launched it’s threatened offensive against Kurdish held Syrian territory along the border (which seems to bear the Orwellian name “Peace Spring Operation“). Lots of airstrikes and shelling, but so far actual ground forces seem to be primarily Turkish-backed Syrian National Army (AKA The Army Formerly Know As The Turkish-Backed Free Syrian Army, which is different than the previous Free Syrian Army, which revolted against Assad) supported by small units of Turkish armor, plus artillery and air power. They’ve thus far made five modest incursions from Tell Abyad (AKA Tall Abiad and half a dozen other variations) to Ras al-Ayn. Thus far they haven’t exceeded the 20 mile buffer zone, and the deepest incursion seems to be about 12 miles in toward the Syrian M4 road.

The president at least has a cogent position that is consistent with the Constitution and public opinion. He wants U.S. forces out of a conflict in which America’s interests have never been clear, and for which Congress has never approved military intervention. I find that sensible — no surprise, given that I have opposed intervention in Syria from the start…The stridency of the counterarguments is matched only by their selectiveness in reciting relevant facts.

I thus respectfully dissent from our National Review editorial.

President Trump, it says, is “making a serious mistake” by moving our forces away from what is described as “Kurdish territory”; the resulting invasion by superior Turkish forces will “kill American allies” while “carving out a zone of dominance” that will serve further to “inflame and complicate” the region.

Where to begin? Perhaps with the basic fact that there is no Kurdish territory. There is Syrian territory on Turkey’s border that the Kurds are occupying — a situation that itself serves to “inflame and complicate” the region for reasons I shall come to. Ethnic Kurds do not have a state. They live in contiguous parts of Syria, Turkey, Iraq, and Iran. Most are integrated into these countries, but many are separatists.

More: https://www.battleswarmblog.com/?p=42207

[TomSea]

Drudge Report

ISIS REVIVAL

Linked article: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7566157/Turkish-military-incursion-Syria-giving-jihadists-chance-regroup.html

Again, post #1 now has a selection of twitter accounts by mostly very relevant reporters, especially:

Joyce Karam: https://twitter.com/Joyce_Karam

Wladimir: https://twitter.com/vvanwilgenburg

Charles Lister: https://twitter.com/Charles_Lister

So, it sounds like the videos have been called authentic, let's see. I'm sure they are, we always need to be sure.

[TomSea]

Graphic Footage At Link, Warning:

Pro-Turkey forces ‘execute’ nine civilians in Syria: Monitor

Pro-Ankara fighters taking part in a Turkish offensive on Kurdish-held border towns in northeastern Syria “executed” at least nine civilians on Saturday, a monitor said.

“The nine civilians were executed at different moments south of the town of Tal Abyad,” the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said.

The Kurds said a female Kurdish party official and her driver were among those killed.

Hevrin Khalaf was “taken out of her car during a Turkish-backed attack and executed by Turkish-backed mercenary factions,” the political arm of the Kurdish-led Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) said in a statement.

Read more at: https://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/middle-east/2019/10/12/Pro-Turkey-forces-execute-nine-civilians-in-syria-monitor-.html