Author Topic: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria  (Read 13518 times)

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Offline DB

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Honor used to be a conservative value

The word "conservative" has been destroyed. Its been replaced with the populist blow of the wind.

Offline DB

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Above just highlights some of the factors at play here,  Turkey has a point-of-view, I think most of it is wrong but they have legitimate concerns and how about this, there were negotiations over this "Safe Zone".

Turkey is a jihadist enterprise.

Online TomSea

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Quote
Mike (Doranimated)
 This simple fact, that the US worked (and continues to work!) with the PKK, is by far the most important cause of the discord between Ankara and Washington. Yet in analysis after analysis, American experts either ignore it or downplay it. https://t.co/gMXLbt5pg8

Ragıp Soylu @ragipsoylu
For the first time in U.S. history, a US President acknowledges on the record that US worked with PKK; a designated terror group by the State Department. While that cooperation was ongoing in 2015, a string of PKK suicide attacks killed 100s in Turkey pic.twitter.com/tj4JdreTWh

https://twitter.com/Doranimated/status/1182205199768866819

Above just highlights some of the factors at play here,  Turkey has a point-of-view, I think most of it is wrong but they have legitimate concerns and how about this, there were negotiations over this "Safe Zone".
Quote
Turkey not satisfied by U.S. proposal for safe zone in northern Syria

Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu on Wednesday said Turkey was running out of patience with the United States in talks to set up what it calls a safe zone in northern Syria and remove Syrian Kurdish force the area.

Çavuşoğlu’s comments follow three days of talks between Turkish and U.S. officials on Syria. The U.S. envoy for Syria, James Jeffrey, arrived in the Turkish capital Ankara over the weekend to discuss the long-planned zone, east of the River Euphrates.

Turkey wants a safe zone at least 30 km deep with Turkish forces in full control, while the United States favours a 10 km-deep area with no permanent Turkish troop presence. The zone is meant to provide a buffer between Turkey and parts of northern Syria controlled by the Syrian Kurdish forces of the People’s Protection Units (YPG).

https://ahvalnews.com/safe-zone/turkey-not-satisfied-us-proposal-safe-zone-northern-syria

Offline skeeter

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Above just highlights some of the factors at play here,  Turkey has a point-of-view, I think most of it is wrong but they have legitimate concerns and how about this, there were negotiations over this "Safe Zone".

Why can’t the blue helmets take over duty in the buffer zone? If turkey wants to remain a member they should be compelled to agree.

Offline musiclady

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The word "conservative" has been destroyed. Its been replaced with the populist blow of the wind.

Yep.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

May 3, 2016 - the day the Republican party left ME.  I am now without a Party, and quite possibly without a country.  May God have mercy!

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
« Reply #180 on: October 10, 2019, 07:22:56 PM »
Hey Tom...Mussolini made the trains run on time too.  I guess we shouldn't ahve ousted him from Italy either huh?
Not to be a nit picker, but the Italians did that.

Quote
Several of his colleagues were close to revolt, and Mussolini was forced to summon the Grand Council on 24 July 1943. This was the first time the body had met since the start of the war. When he announced that the Germans were thinking of evacuating the south, Grandi launched a blistering attack on him.[12] Grandi moved a resolution asking the king to resume his full constitutional powers–in effect, a vote of no confidence in Mussolini. This motion carried by a 19–8 margin.[168] Mussolini showed little visible reaction, even though this effectively gave the king legal authorization to sack him. He did, however, ask Grandi to consider the possibility that this motion would spell the end of Fascism.[171]

Despite this sharp rebuke, Mussolini showed up for work the next day as usual. He allegedly viewed the Grand Council as merely an advisory body and did not think the vote would have any substantive effect.[168] That afternoon, he was summoned to the royal palace by Victor Emmanuel, who had been planning to oust Mussolini earlier. When Mussolini tried to tell the king about the meeting, Victor Emmanuel cut him off and formally dismissed him from office, replacing him with Marshal Pietro Badoglio.[168] After Mussolini left the palace, he was arrested by Carabinieri on the king's orders.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression


There are no "Socialists", no "Progressives", only Communists, with every negative image that totalitarianism might muster, demanding fealty and conformity to their views, with a legacy of 150,000,000 dead and counting.

Online TomSea

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The best solution for us is to GET OUT OF THERE -- get out of all the muslim countries -- and let them "have at it" against each other.

The more force they use against one another, the more dead, the better.

Seal off the entire muslim world just as the Soviets encased Chernobyl in a "sarcophagus" by which to burn itself out.

Let islam do the same.

Then the Bushies and Obama-ites shouldn't have fan the flames of sectarianism in the first place and I sure don't believe in abandoning Christians that have been there since New Testament times.  Not on our watch.   And I'm far from saying Trump is ideal on this, he pulled this last Nov./Dec. as well.

Quote
Wladimir
@vvanwilgenburg
·
4h
Christian fighter of @SyriacMFS
 is not surprised two Christians were the first to be killed in the Turkish attack in the Al-Beshayriyyeh neighborhood in Al-Qamishli city Wednesday. "This is what Erdogan wants. Especially the Christians are his first target."



https://twitter.com/vvanwilgenburg/status/1182283899013079042

Online TomSea

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Why can’t the blue helmets take over duty in the buffer zone? If turkey wants to remain a member they should be compelled to agree.

I heard it said that partnering with the PKK as we did would be like partnering with Hamas against Israel though, the Kurds will say the ones on their side of the border in Syria, have not been involved in acts against Turkey.  So, this is a bit more complex than we might initially see.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
« Reply #183 on: October 10, 2019, 07:37:34 PM »
If we really wanted to help the Kurds, we let the opportunity for a lasting solution pass us by.

We should have partitioned Iraq, and created a Kurdish state therein.
"Kurdistan", for lack of a better name.

And then we should have told the Iraqis that if they were going to oppose this, we would fight against them "on the Kurdish side" with the same determination we had previously used to oppose Saddam.

That would have put them in their place.
The Kurds were divvied up by the partition of the Ottoman Empire, either done without regard for tribal boundaries (out of ignorance), or to make sure there would be perpetual conflict in the region (a possibility that makes for profits). THey have been fighting for their 'turf' since, and what you bring up might have solved the problem. Recall, Saddam had used chemical weapons against them. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, it depends on which side you are on, and historically, on who wins.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression


There are no "Socialists", no "Progressives", only Communists, with every negative image that totalitarianism might muster, demanding fealty and conformity to their views, with a legacy of 150,000,000 dead and counting.

Online Right_in_Virginia

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Turkey and the Kurds: It’s More Complicated Than You Think
« Reply #184 on: October 10, 2019, 08:10:40 PM »
Turkey and the Kurds: It’s More Complicated Than You Think
National Review, Oct 10, 2019, Andrew C. McCarthy

[...]

I thus respectfully dissent from our National Review editorial.  [...]

Where to begin? Perhaps with the basic fact that there is no Kurdish territory. There is Syrian territory on Turkey’s border that the Kurds are occupying — a situation that itself serves to “inflame and complicate” the region for reasons I shall come to. Ethnic Kurds do not have a state. They live in contiguous parts of Syria, Turkey, Iraq, and Iran. Most are integrated into these countries, but many are separatists.

The Kurds have been our allies against ISIS, but it is not for us that they have fought. They fight ISIS for themselves, with our help. They are seeking an autonomous zone and, ultimately, statehood. The editorial fails to note that the Kurds we have backed, led by the YPG (People’s Protection Units), are the Syrian branch of the PKK (the Kurdistan Worker’s Party) in Turkey. The PKK is a militant separatist organization with Marxist-Leninist roots. Although such informed observers as Michael Rubin contend that the PKK has “evolved,” it remains a formally designated foreign terrorist organization under U.S. law. While our government materially supports the PKK’s confederates, ordinary Americans have been prosecuted for materially supporting the PKK.

The PKK has a long history of conducting terrorist attacks, but their quarrel is not with us. So why has our government designated them as terrorists? Because they have been fighting an insurgent war against Turkey for over 30 years. Turkey remains our NATO ally, even though the Erdogan government is one of the more duplicitous and anti-Western actors in a region that teems with them — as I’ve detailed over the years (see, e.g., here, here, here, here, and in my 2012 book, Spring Fever). The Erdogan problem complicates but does not change the fact that Turkey is of great strategic significance to our security.

[...]

The easily foreseeable conflict between Turkey and the Kurds is at hand. We are supposed to see the problem as Trump’s abandoning of U.S. commitments. But why did we make commitments to the Kurds that undermined preexisting commitments to Turkey? The debate is strictly framed as “How can we leave the Kurds to the tender mercies of the Turks?” No one is supposed to ask “What did we expect would happen when we backed a militant organization that is tightly linked to U.S.-designated terrorists and that is the bitter enemy of a NATO ally we knew would not abide its presence on the ally’s border?” No one is supposed to ask “What is the end game here? Are we endorsing the partition of Syria? Did we see a Kurdish autonomous zone as the next Kosovo?” (We might remember that recognition of Kosovo’s split from Serbia, over Russian objections, was exploited by the Kremlin as a rationale for promoting separatism and annexations in Georgia and Ukraine.)


Read more:  https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/10/turkey-and-the-kurds-its-more-complicated-than-you-think/





« Last Edit: October 10, 2019, 08:18:51 PM by Right_in_Virginia »
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Online Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Turkey and the Kurds: It’s More Complicated Than You Think
« Reply #185 on: October 10, 2019, 08:12:15 PM »
For those familiar with my posts:  No, I did not ghostwrite this essay.   happy77

But I sure do hope you read it from start to finish.
"January 20th 2017 will be remembered as the day the people became the rulers of this nation again."  --  President Donald J. Trump

Online Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Turkey and the Kurds: It’s More Complicated Than You Think
« Reply #186 on: October 10, 2019, 08:15:31 PM »
FTA

Quote
It is true, as the editors observe, that “there are no easy answers in Syria.” That is no excuse for offering an answer that makes no sense: “The United States should have an exit strategy, but one that neither squanders our tactical gains against ISIS nor exposes our allies to unacceptable retribution.”

Put aside that our arming of the Kurds has already exposed our allies in Turkey to unacceptable risk. What the editorial poses is not an “exit strategy” but its opposite. In effect, it would keep U.S. forces in Syria interminably, permanently interposed between the Kurds and the Turks. The untidy questions of how that would be justifiable legally or politically go unaddressed.
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Offline InHeavenThereIsNoBeer

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Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
« Reply #187 on: October 10, 2019, 08:21:49 PM »
If we really wanted to help the Kurds, we let the opportunity for a lasting solution pass us by.

We should have partitioned Iraq, and created a Kurdish state therein.
"Kurdistan", for lack of a better name.

And then we should have told the Iraqis that if they were going to oppose this, we would fight against them "on the Kurdish side" with the same determination we had previously used to oppose Saddam.

That would have put them in their place.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/12572371/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/t/biden-proposes-partitioning-iraq-regions/
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Online TomSea

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Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
« Reply #188 on: October 10, 2019, 08:38:57 PM »
If we really wanted to help the Kurds, we let the opportunity for a lasting solution pass us by.

We should have partitioned Iraq, and created a Kurdish state therein.
"Kurdistan", for lack of a better name.

And then we should have told the Iraqis that if they were going to oppose this, we would fight against them "on the Kurdish side" with the same determination we had previously used to oppose Saddam.

That would have put them in their place.

Actually, there appears to be an Iraqi Kurdistan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_Kurdistan

I kind of wonder why most of them don't just go there, I"m sure there are issues, not big enough or what have you.

Offline Cyber Liberty

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So Erdogan admits he's European at heart?  They have a long, rich history of using war refugees as pawns.
Don't call it the "Federal Government," that's an insult to the Founders.  It's a "National Government."
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Online TomSea

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Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
« Reply #190 on: October 10, 2019, 08:52:36 PM »
Quote
October 10, 2019 Topic: Security Region: Middle East Blog Brand: Middle East Watch Tags: TurkeySyriaKurdsRecep ErdoganState Department
State Department Snafu: Turkey Was Never Given a Green Light to Invade Syria

The Trump administration will neither support the Turkish operation in northern Syria nor opposite it with military force. It will simply sit back and watch the chaos unfold from afar.

by Matthew Petti

The Trump administration is working behind-the-scenes to mediate a ceasefire between Turkey and the Syrian Kurds, but it’s unclear whether its efforts will have any effect. But for now, the United States believes that the Turkish campaign in Syria is limited.

A senior State Department official talked to reporters about the state of the U.S.-Turkey relationship during an afternoon conference call on Thursday. The call was a rare glimpse into the thought processes of the department, which has been unusually silent on Syria.


As a condition of participating in the call, the National Interest agreed not to mention the official by name.

Read more at: https://nationalinterest.org/blog/middle-east-watch/state-department-snafu-turkey-was-never-given-green-light-invade-syria-87546

Looks like a keeper article....

Offline Absalom

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Re: Turkey and the Kurds: It’s More Complicated Than You Think
« Reply #191 on: October 10, 2019, 09:01:00 PM »
The Kurds, another Asian Tribe, have populated Mesopotamia/Iraq,
Persia/Iran, Syria and Turkey; having been around since Sumer in 2,200 BC.
The only Kurdistan that ever existed was created in Hollywood.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2019, 11:18:48 AM by Absalom »

Online TomSea

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Re: Turkey and the Kurds: It’s More Complicated Than You Think
« Reply #192 on: October 10, 2019, 09:11:39 PM »
Quote
Iraqi Kurdistan profile
    25 April 2018

Iraq's 2005 Constitution recognises an autonomous Kurdistan region in the north of the country, run by the Kurdistan Regional Government.

This was the outcome of decades of political and military efforts to secure self-rule by the Kurdish minority, who are estimated to number more than 6 million and make up between 17% and 20% of the population of Iraq.

Kurds, who number 30-40 million in total, live in a compact area that reaches from Syria in the west to Iran in the east and Iraq in the south, north through Turkey, and into the states of the former Soviet Caucasus.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28147263

They do have their own self-governing region in Iraq.

Rojava is an area in Syria, that's where a lot of this action is going on.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rojava

Offline txradioguy

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That's awfully close to a "some people did something comment"...

You notice that...among some people here...what's happening to the Kurds is now dumbed down to "drama".   **nononono*

Anything to justify betrayal of an ally I guess.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2019, 09:20:03 PM by txradioguy »
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Online TomSea

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Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
« Reply #194 on: October 10, 2019, 09:19:15 PM »
https://twitter.com/Joyce_Karam

Quote
@Joyce_Karam
·
30m
#Turkey’s Erdogan Tweets in Arabic hailing “Mohamedian Army / Army of [Prophet] Mohamed” invading on his behalf NE #Syria to fight Kurdish forces.

This is dangerous & unfortunate use of Islam as a religion to rally behind a political war with humanitarian ramifications on all..

Quote Tweet
رجب طيب أردوغان
@rterdogan_ar
 · Oct 9
أقبل كافة أفراد الجيش المحمدي الأبطال المشاركين في عملية نبع السلام من جباههم، وأتمنى النجاح والتوفيق لهم ولكافة العناصر المحلية الداعمة والتي تقف جنبًا إلى جنب مع تركيا في هذه العملية، وفقكم الله وكان في عونكم.
Show this thread

https://twitter.com/Joyce_Karam/status/1182457606016774144

She sure doesn't like this.

I'll just add this on, see this is that "Marxist-type" symbolism the Kurds use....

« Last Edit: October 10, 2019, 09:23:17 PM by TomSea »

Offline txradioguy

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Why can’t the blue helmets take over duty in the buffer zone? If turkey wants to remain a member they should be compelled to agree.

Because from personal experience...if you have the Blue Helmets there...it's like having no one there at all.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline txradioguy

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The word "conservative" has been destroyed. Its been replaced with the populist blow of the wind.

QFT
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline txradioguy

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Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
« Reply #197 on: October 10, 2019, 09:23:41 PM »
Erdogan can go eff himself and his self righteous justification for this slaughter.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
« Reply #198 on: October 10, 2019, 10:12:12 PM »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression


There are no "Socialists", no "Progressives", only Communists, with every negative image that totalitarianism might muster, demanding fealty and conformity to their views, with a legacy of 150,000,000 dead and counting.

Offline txradioguy

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Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
« Reply #199 on: October 10, 2019, 10:15:18 PM »
https://twitter.com/Joyce_Karam

https://twitter.com/Joyce_Karam/status/1182457606016774144

She sure doesn't like this.

I'll just add this on, see this is that "Marxist-type" symbolism the Kurds use....




I'm just gonna leave this right here...



 :whistle:
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!


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