Author Topic: Time to Set the Record Straight on Slavery  (Read 5462 times)

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Offline OfTheCross

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Re: Time to Set the Record Straight on Slavery
« Reply #25 on: October 02, 2019, 03:46:39 pm »
Yankees say the War of Northern Aggression was a one issue war.

Without fighting the conflict over again, the economic sanction of forcibly divesting producers of the agricultural labor of the largest producers in the South was the final straw, but it was not the only issue which had caused the rift.
Sectional disagreements had been smoldering for decades before that threat fanned the flames.
Ultimately, it wasn't a war to free anyone, it was total war, of conquest, to force people who did not wish to remain in a compact they felt no longer served them to do so. The change from a Federal Government to a National Government was the result, and the Constitution has not been read the same since, in regards to States' Rights.

It may not have been the only issue. But Slavery certainly wasn't a footnote. Which is all that I said. You certainly wouldn't be living in a United States, Atlantic to Pacific America if the North hadn't won.

I reckon we'd have at least 3 or 4 countries on the mainland.
If a well-regulated militia be the most natural defense of a free country, it ought certainly to be under the regulation and at the disposal of that body which is constituted the guardian of the national security.

Online Bigun

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Re: Time to Set the Record Straight on Slavery
« Reply #26 on: October 02, 2019, 03:49:19 pm »
It may not have been the only issue. But Slavery certainly wasn't a footnote. Which is all that I said. You certainly wouldn't be living in a United States, Atlantic to Pacific America if the North hadn't won.

I reckon we'd have at least 3 or 4 countries on the mainland.

I reckon you are still FOS!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Time to Set the Record Straight on Slavery
« Reply #27 on: October 02, 2019, 03:59:43 pm »
It may not have been the only issue. But Slavery certainly wasn't a footnote. Which is all that I said. You certainly wouldn't be living in a United States, Atlantic to Pacific America if the North hadn't won.

I reckon we'd have at least 3 or 4 countries on the mainland.
Not sure what your point is.

We would not be living in the US if Great Britain had won the Revolutionary War, either.

And slavery was an economic system throughout the world that the US unfortunately adopted when it was founded.  That system was altered later on by us, prior to most of the world doing so.

So rather than curse this great country and attempting to fragment it with an unworkable scheme that has no advantages to any except a few and lots of disadvantages, you should be applauding it.
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Online roamer_1

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Re: Time to Set the Record Straight on Slavery
« Reply #28 on: October 02, 2019, 04:03:17 pm »
It may not have been the only issue. But Slavery certainly wasn't a footnote. Which is all that I said. You certainly wouldn't be living in a United States, Atlantic to Pacific America if the North hadn't won.

I reckon we'd have at least 3 or 4 countries on the mainland.

At the cost of federalism, the near total loss of state sovereignty, and a tyrannical overweening national government imposing itself, I will take plan B... And it is fixin to happen all over again.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Time to Set the Record Straight on Slavery
« Reply #29 on: October 03, 2019, 01:56:30 am »
:hands: :hands: :hands: :hands: :hands: :hands:

Even Shelby Foote  has recognized that and said so:

Shelby Foote

https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4454375/author-shelby-foote-meaning-civil-war-us-history

St. George Tucker’s Jeffersonian Constitution

A really good piece on the subject you might enjoy @Smokin Joe.
Thank You @ Bigun. My ancestors signed an oath to the Sovereign State of Maryland between the Revolution and the Constitution's ratification. To me, that clarifies the nature of the Compact, in that one was a Marylander, Virginian, Pennsylvanian, etc., first, and a Citizen of what were then described as "These United States" second (As opposed to "The United States"). The clear implication of the former being that several Sovereign States were united for the purpose of mutual defense, trade negotiations, mail, and policies, a common currency, weights, measures, etc., with some limited Federal Power to enforce and regulate specific areas  and settle disputes between States, and not the National Government the Hamiltonians finally imposed which is implied by the latter.

That came after the military conquest of the Southern States which had seceded (and occupation and military domination of others) in the 1860s. That Americans were deeply divided in their belief as to how that government was to function vs the State and Local Governments is reflect in the intensity of that conflict, and the casualties inflicted thereby.

This also explains why so many fought when only one in four households in the South had one or more slaves, and fewer than 15% of combatants owned slaves. Even by the most amplified accounts, fully two thirds of the Southern troops had no direct or indirect interest in preserving the institution of Slavery, an institution which was doomed at any rate within a few decades.

In my home State (well, State of Origin, I'm transplanted, now) manumission was on the rise as crop types changed to support the dietary needs of the growing Federal District and the port and industry around Baltimore. As well, and noted, slaves were not allowed in the holds of ships being loaded (incredibly hazardous duty) because it would place a valuable asset at risk.

Keep in mind the value of those slaves owned often exceeded the value of the land and tools they worked with, including buildings. It was far cheaper to hire an immigrant for a pittance to do the dangerous work, and if they were killed, to pay off the widow (generous, that) and hire another--besides, the immigrants provided their own sustenance from their wages. (If you ever wondered why the Irish ended up being police, teamsters, firemen, longshoremen, miners, etc., well, now you know. The Irish were treated pretty shabbily.)
For those who did own slaves, sure, there was motive enough in resisting the forcible deprivation of fully half or more of their assets, without compensation, by government decree. Do that to anyone today, and they'd be up at arms, too--do that to the wealthiest 25% of a region, and it's casus belli.

So, to be historically accurate, the reasons for any individual going to war likely varied, to fight for their home State, and its continued sovereignty, to fight to protect personal or family assets, to fight what had been seen as decades of oppression by northern interests, particularly industrial ones (which the South was building in the couple of decades leading up to the war), or very simply, to defend your home State against invasion by the Armies of other States. (I reiterate, the definition of Militia in Barclay's dictionary in the 1820s was: The Army, in it's entirety, and each State had one.)

For those who believe in an Oligarchy, a deep state, a well funded cabal of special interests who exert disproportionate influence on policy, one might even be able to make the case that Abolition was pushed as an issue to provoke war, to destroy the budding industrial capability of the South before it grew enough to make the Southern source of raw materials for the Northern Mills independent of those same industrial interests and the region more self sufficient, even as the North retained domination of shipping, including the influx of immigrants from Europe, and especially Ireland).
The effects, from cultural condescension (continued even to this day with the whole Hillbilly Hick meme commonly embraced by some urbane Northerners and especially in the media) to economic exploitation that began with the carpetbaggers and continued until people and resources from other nations were cheaper to exploit, have been framed in the well-controlled accounts of history and the general Northern domination of the popular press as well, but aside from snide sanctimony, have also disparaged the contributions of those Virginians (Jefferson, Madison, et. al.) and others who framed the very fabric of this nation.

That is the lens through which our origins have been distorted into the origins of a Nation rather than a federation of united sovereign states, and in those distortions, much of the original intent of that compact (The Constitution) have been lost.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Time to Set the Record Straight on Slavery
« Reply #30 on: October 03, 2019, 02:10:34 am »
It may not have been the only issue. But Slavery certainly wasn't a footnote. Which is all that I said. You certainly wouldn't be living in a United States, Atlantic to Pacific America if the North hadn't won.

I reckon we'd have at least 3 or 4 countries on the mainland.
If the issue had not been pushed to a casus bellli, there would have remained These United States, likely much the same geographical distribution, and certainly from coast to coast. The incentives would have been great, indeed, for those territories beyond the Louisiana Purchase to become States as well.
The end of slavery began early in some states, and came later in others. Had those States not sought to impose their laws on the other States, war could have been avoided, and the institution would have likely died a natural death.
(BTW, there are 4 countries in North America, not counting "First Nations" Territories and Indian Reservations: US, Canada, Mexico, Belize, not counting the island nations of the Caribbean).
« Last Edit: October 03, 2019, 03:25:27 am by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Online Bigun

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Re: Time to Set the Record Straight on Slavery
« Reply #31 on: October 03, 2019, 02:10:05 pm »
Thank You @ Bigun. My ancestors signed an oath to the Sovereign State of Maryland between the Revolution and the Constitution's ratification. To me, that clarifies the nature of the Compact, in that one was a Marylander, Virginian, Pennsylvanian, etc., first, and a Citizen of what were then described as "These United States" second (As opposed to "The United States"). The clear implication of the former being that several Sovereign States were united for the purpose of mutual defense, trade negotiations, mail, and policies, a common currency, weights, measures, etc., with some limited Federal Power to enforce and regulate specific areas  and settle disputes between States, and not the National Government the Hamiltonians finally imposed which is implied by the latter.

That came after the military conquest of the Southern States which had seceded (and occupation and military domination of others) in the 1860s. That Americans were deeply divided in their belief as to how that government was to function vs the State and Local Governments is reflect in the intensity of that conflict, and the casualties inflicted thereby.

This also explains why so many fought when only one in four households in the South had one or more slaves, and fewer than 15% of combatants owned slaves. Even by the most amplified accounts, fully two thirds of the Southern troops had no direct or indirect interest in preserving the institution of Slavery, an institution which was doomed at any rate within a few decades.

In my home State (well, State of Origin, I'm transplanted, now) manumission was on the rise as crop types changed to support the dietary needs of the growing Federal District and the port and industry around Baltimore. As well, and noted, slaves were not allowed in the holds of ships being loaded (incredibly hazardous duty) because it would place a valuable asset at risk.

Keep in mind the value of those slaves owned often exceeded the value of the land and tools they worked with, including buildings. It was far cheaper to hire an immigrant for a pittance to do the dangerous work, and if they were killed, to pay off the widow (generous, that) and hire another--besides, the immigrants provided their own sustenance from their wages. (If you ever wondered why the Irish ended up being police, teamsters, firemen, longshoremen, miners, etc., well, now you know. The Irish were treated pretty shabbily.)
For those who did own slaves, sure, there was motive enough in resisting the forcible deprivation of fully half or more of their assets, without compensation, by government decree. Do that to anyone today, and they'd be up at arms, too--do that to the wealthiest 25% of a region, and it's casus belli.

So, to be historically accurate, the reasons for any individual going to war likely varied, to fight for their home State, and its continued sovereignty, to fight to protect personal or family assets, to fight what had been seen as decades of oppression by northern interests, particularly industrial ones (which the South was building in the couple of decades leading up to the war), or very simply, to defend your home State against invasion by the Armies of other States. (I reiterate, the definition of Militia in Barclay's dictionary in the 1820s was: The Army, in it's entirety, and each State had one.)

For those who believe in an Oligarchy, a deep state, a well funded cabal of special interests who exert disproportionate influence on policy, one might even be able to make the case that Abolition was pushed as an issue to provoke war, to destroy the budding industrial capability of the South before it grew enough to make the Southern source of raw materials for the Northern Mills independent of those same industrial interests and the region more self sufficient, even as the North retained domination of shipping, including the influx of immigrants from Europe, and especially Ireland).
The effects, from cultural condescension (continued even to this day with the whole Hillbilly Hick meme commonly embraced by some urbane Northerners and especially in the media) to economic exploitation that began with the carpetbaggers and continued until people and resources from other nations were cheaper to exploit, have been framed in the well-controlled accounts of history and the general Northern domination of the popular press as well, but aside from snide sanctimony, have also disparaged the contributions of those Virginians (Jefferson, Madison, et. al.) and others who framed the very fabric of this nation.

That is the lens through which our origins have been distorted into the origins of a Nation rather than a federation of united sovereign states, and in those distortions, much of the original intent of that compact (The Constitution) have been lost.

All I can say to that @Smokin Joe is  :amen:  There is no denying the truth!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline christian

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Re: Time to Set the Record Straight on Slavery
« Reply #32 on: October 28, 2020, 02:09:40 pm »
Slavery is so terrible democrats invite Muslims to America, who have already set up and practiced slavery and forced prostitution.  Slavery is so bad, some democrats talk to blacks today as if they were uppity slaves disrespecting the plantation the democrats have put them on.  Some white masters even deny blacks rights to even be black. **nononono*
White fool guilt is a construct of Satan's minions building inventing guilt to manipulate fools that are glad to be manipulated just to garner some meager attention.  In the Old Testament there was a Rehoboam guilt society, God erased them from the earth.  Those that refuse to learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them, and the consequences thereof.
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Offline Absalom

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Re: Time to Set the Record Straight on Slavery
« Reply #33 on: October 29, 2020, 05:32:31 am »
We were founded as a British Colony around 1607 and in 1787 we ratified our Constitution.
During those 180 years we did not possess Sovereign Right and control of our destiny.
As such, we are not responsible for slavery imposed by the British Crown during those years.
Our responsibility begins and ends during the 75 yeas culminating w/the Emancipation Proclamation!


Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Time to Set the Record Straight on Slavery
« Reply #34 on: October 29, 2020, 05:45:26 am »
We were founded as a British Colony around 1607 and in 1787 we ratified our Constitution.
During those 180 years we did not possess Sovereign Right and control of our destiny.
As such, we are not responsible for slavery imposed by the British Crown during those years.
Our responsibility begins and ends during the 75 yeas [sic] culminating w/the Emancipation Proclamation!
With the exception of the typo, 78 years is correct. (1865-1787=78)
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Absalom

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Re: Time to Set the Record Straight on Slavery
« Reply #35 on: October 29, 2020, 05:57:23 am »
With the exception of the typo, 78 years is correct. (1865-1787=78)
----------------
My error, apologies!

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Time to Set the Record Straight on Slavery
« Reply #36 on: October 29, 2020, 09:17:05 am »
----------------
My error, apologies!
S'okay!
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Online Bigun

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Re: Time to Set the Record Straight on Slavery
« Reply #37 on: October 29, 2020, 02:01:12 pm »
We were founded as a British Colony around 1607 and in 1787 we ratified our Constitution.
During those 180 years we did not possess Sovereign Right and control of our destiny.
As such, we are not responsible for slavery imposed by the British Crown during those years.
Our responsibility begins and ends during the 75 yeas culminating w/the Emancipation Proclamation!

I hate to be the one that breaks this to you @Absolom but Mr. Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation was very carefully crafted to make certain that it freed exactly ZERO slaves and especially those that existed in large numbers at the time in Union states.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Time to Set the Record Straight on Slavery
« Reply #38 on: October 29, 2020, 06:33:07 pm »
I hate to be the one that breaks this to you @Absolom but Mr. Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation was very carefully crafted to make certain that it freed exactly ZERO slaves and especially those that existed in large numbers at the time in Union states.
Which is why I used 1865 as the date, not 1863...
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline christian

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Re: Time to Set the Record Straight on Slavery
« Reply #39 on: November 05, 2020, 09:47:53 pm »
At such a cost inhuman lives to free the black people,deniers say it was much for naught.  John brown started the Christian conscience objections at Harpers Ferry.  The race baiting whores abhor to acknowledge the enormous cost and the sacrifices made to free black people.  The same that gladly import muslims who practice slavery to this very day.  Who is your Pied Piper, real righteousness or iniquity whores posturing righteousness, but advocating iniquities/hypocrisies?
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Offline LegalAmerican

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Re: Time to Set the Record Straight on Slavery
« Reply #40 on: November 06, 2020, 04:24:02 am »
Yes. They're allowed to make their case. We will receive it and decide whether we support their cause or don't.

Slavery may have been legally abolished 150 years ago but the Voting Rights Act happened just 50 years ago. Its' effects were still being dealt with.

That's an argument they can make.

50 years ago?  That is STILL  2 generations, easily.  How many does it take to learn truth?  People can vote. 

Offline LegalAmerican

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Re: Time to Set the Record Straight on Slavery
« Reply #41 on: November 06, 2020, 04:28:52 am »
At such a cost inhuman lives to free the black people,deniers say it was much for naught.  John brown started the Christian conscience objections at Harpers Ferry.  The race baiting whores abhor to acknowledge the enormous cost and the sacrifices made to free black people.  The same that gladly import muslims who practice slavery to this very day.  Who is your Pied Piper, real righteousness or iniquity whores posturing righteousness, but advocating iniquities/hypocrisies?

It is never enough.  Yes, Cassius Clay=Mohamed Ali.  Kareem Abdul Jabar=muslim.  WHY?  Both are blacks, who became muslims, who still believe in slavery in 2020.  BARBARY COAST;  Millions of white Christians were slaves to black muslims. Raped, branded, burned alive, beaten, sold, beheaded, castrated.

Offline LegalAmerican

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Re: Time to Set the Record Straight on Slavery
« Reply #42 on: November 06, 2020, 04:32:39 am »
Not sure what your point is.

We would not be living in the US if Great Britain had won the Revolutionary War, either.

And slavery was an economic system throughout the world that the US unfortunately adopted when it was founded.  That system was altered later on by us, prior to most of the world doing so.

So rather than curse this great country and attempting to fragment it with an unworkable scheme that has no advantages to any except a few and lots of disadvantages, you should be applauding it.

 :thumbsup: