The first Europeans weren’t who you might think

[Sanguine]

After the Toba Eruption, it was indeed the wanderers who filled the spaces.
It is a big planet for the estimated 75,000 humans who survived.
When there was plenty of room and resources there was no need for nation states, no need to stake out turf to ensure resources for your band/group/tribe. In fact, running into another group would be a chance to exchange genetics between bands and gain something for your people (band/extended family unit). No doubt such happened.
Structured agriculture came about for a host of reasons, not the least need for a food supply people could control (because when there are too many wanderers, there is no guarantee that the berry bushes won't be picked clean), and because it was efficient.
With agriculture and animal husbandry comes the ability to support a larger population and have concentrations of people who will ultimately form city/states and eventually nations.
 
But city folks tend to be sedentary, so long as they can. It was (and still is) the wanderers who trade, who find mineral resources, who find the good pasture over the next hill, who pave the way for the establishment of the cities, not the other way around.

The Toba eruption brought the human population down to possibly as low as 7,000 humans.  A number of scientists have recently tried to debunk that theory though I don't know if the science is clear on that or not.  The point you make though, most modern humans are closely related. 

[Smokin Joe]

The Toba eruption brought the human population down to possibly as low as 7,000 humans.  A number of scientists have recently tried to debunk that theory though I don't know if the science is clear on that or not.  The point you make though, most modern humans are closely related.

Consider those close relations, and after the skies cleared and food started growing again, the survivors might not have been all homo sapiens--Neanderthals were still extant after Toba, so, concepts of 'racial purity' might also stem from not interbreeding between Homo Sapiens and the Neanderthals. 

[Sanguine]

Consider those close relations, and after the skies cleared and food started growing again, the survivors might not have been all homo sapiens--Neanderthals were still extant after Toba, so, concepts of 'racial purity' might also stem from not interbreeding between Homo Sapiens and the Neanderthals.

Yes, that's why I left it sort of open.  Fascinating history, isn't it?

[Smokin Joe]

Yes, that's why I left it sort of open.  Fascinating history, isn't it?

Indeed!

[Fishrrman]

Take your average Icelander, Dane, Swede, Norwegian.

How much do they resemble sub-Saharan Africans?

[truth_seeker]

Take your average Icelander, Dane, Swede, Norwegian.

How much do they resemble sub-Saharan Africans?

Did you know the degree of differences within Africa, is greater than the difference between Africans and non-Africans?

https://www.bing.com/search?q=dna+differences+within+africa&form=EDGNB2&mkt=en-us&httpsmsn=1&plvar=0&refig=06e4a2bf4ef343788dd37696bf0cfc2c&sp=-1&pq=dna+differences+within+afric&sc=0-28&qs=n&sk=&cvid=06e4a2bf4ef343788dd37696bf0cfc2c

[bigheadfred]

Denisovan

[Smokin Joe]

@Sanguine Along these lines, Neanderthals gave us disease genes

[roamer_1]

In that sense, "racial purity" might mean humans without the taint of other than human genetics.

No, in fact, that whole angle, to include the right of kings and royal bloodlies, comes from the Fallen Ones you refer to, and is the baseline of the occult side of things... Royal lineage to angelic bloodlines drives it all... To include the ancient Aryan nonsense running through Hitler's head.

It would be seriously fun to sit on the porch over sweet tea, and talk to you @Smokin Joe

[Sanguine]

@Sanguine Along these lines, Neanderthals gave us disease genes

Good article, thanks.  But, only some of us - Africans do not carry Neanderthal genes.

[sneakypete]

Good article, thanks.  But, only some of us - Africans do not carry Neanderthal genes.

@Sanguine

Really? I have never heard that before. Do you have any links related to this?

Please note that I am not doubting you. I don't even know enough about this to know what questions to ask.

[Sanguine]

@Sanguine

Really? I have never heard that before. Do you have any links related to this?

Please note that I am not doubting you. I don't even know enough about this to know what questions to ask.

@sneakypete, I've got to run right now, but will post some links when I get back.

[Sanguine]

Pete, here's a few articles:


Why Am I Neanderthal? - National Geographic's Genographic Project
https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/neanderthal/

When our ancestors first migrated out of Africa around 70,000 years ago, they ... Indigenous sub-Saharan Africans have none, or very little Neanderthal DNA ...
Ancient DNA and Neanderthals | The Smithsonian Institution's ...
http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/genetics/ancient-dna-and-neanderthals/interbreeding

Interbreeding. Neanderthals have contributed approximately 1-4% of the genomes of non-African modern humans, although a modern human who lived about ...
The genetics of ancient Africa and a mysterious human population ...
https://blog.helix.com/african-history-genetics-archaic/

Aug 7, 2018 ... Like in the case of Neanderthal DNA in non-Africans, there is some evidence that this archaic human DNA may have provided some advantage ...

[truth_seeker]

DNA science is well "settled" since it is used to solve and prosecute crimes, paternity, identify remains including battlefield, and medical/health issues.

Origins, cousin matches from DNA compnies is "popular," but not really the leading edge of DNA research.

The migration "out of Africa" story, has been known for awhile, and is told by the leading DNA test companies.

mt-DNA = motherline
Y-DNA = fatherline
Autosomal = regional origin location
 are just a few terms that anybody can search, if interested.

My own fatherline DNA from two companies, ties exactly to 500 years of well researched genealogy.

 

[sneakypete]

Pete, here's a few articles:

@Sanguine

Very interesting.

Thank you!

[Sanguine]

@Sanguine

Very interesting.

Thank you!

You're so welcome, and, yes, it is very interesting stuff.  Quite a few of us prehistory (not prehistoric) buffs here.

[sneakypete]

DNA science is well "settled" since it is used to solve and prosecute crimes, paternity, identify remains including battlefield, and medical/health issues.

Origins, cousin matches from DNA compnies is "popular," but not really the leading edge of DNA research.

The migration "out of Africa" story, has been known for awhile, and is told by the leading DNA test companies.

mt-DNA = motherline
Y-DNA = fatherline
Autosomal = regional origin location
 are just a few terms that anybody can search, if interested.

My own fatherline DNA from two companies, ties exactly to 500 years of well researched genealogy.

 

@truth_seeker

My father was 100 percent Greek from Greece,and my mother was Scots-Irish and Mohawk. I'm guessing my DNA would be interesting.

I wonder if anyone has done any DNA testing on the American "Indian" tribes? For those who don't know,they were NOT "One People". They ranged from black as Africans,to Asian,to red,to as white as Snow White. Maybe even zebra-striped for all I know. Everybody seems to lump them all together,and they were VASTLY different in any aspect you care to mention. Which,to me,indicates they had different origins.

[truth_seeker]

@truth_seeker

My father was 100 percent Greek from Greece,and my mother was Scots-Irish and Mohawk. I'm guessing my DNA would be interesting.

I wonder if anyone has done any DNA testing on the American "Indian" tribes? For those who don't know,they were NOT "One People". They ranged from black as Africans,to Asian,to red,to as white as Snow White. Maybe even zebra-striped for all I know. Everybody seems to lump them all together,and they were VASTLY different in any aspect you care to mention. Which,to me,indicates they had different origins.

On the language side, the Native American tribes from the Arctic to Tierra del Fuego, have a large number of entirely unrelated tongues.

I do not know about DNA, but I expect there is a lot to discover on the Internet.

My own family-tree (pedigree) shows nobody from Southern Europe (Greece, Italy, Iberia) but my DNA does.

The Celts of Britain may have migrated from Spain, north to Ireland, England, etc.

The largest single fatherline group, is widely found and it is R1b

@sneakypete

[sneakypete]

ernet.

My own family-tree (pedigree) shows nobody from Southern Europe (Greece, Italy, Iberia) but my DNA does.

@truth_seeker

Damn traveling salesmen!

The Celts of Britain may have migrated from Spain, north to Ireland, England, etc.

That is an absolute certainty. MY THEORY is they melted away amongst the Highland Scots as well as some of the Irish tribes. I don't think there is much question in the minds of the Scots of today that the Highland Scots and the lowland Scots are completely different people by nature as well as DNA.

I really wish I had the education and the ability to work on cracking this stuff down.

The largest single fatherline group, is widely found and it is R1b

And who would that be?

@sneakypete

[truth_seeker]

@truth_seeker

Damn traveling salesmen!

That is an absolute certainty. MY THEORY is they melted away amongst the Highland Scots as well as some of the Irish tribes. I don't think there is much question in the minds of the Scots of today that the Highland Scots and the lowland Scots are completely different people by nature as well as DNA.

I really wish I had the education and the ability to work on cracking this stuff down.


And who would that be?

@sneakypete

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml

@sneakypete


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6n0_sZeQMM0

[sneakypete]

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml

@sneakypete


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6n0_sZeQMM0

@truth_seeker

Thanks again!

[truth_seeker]

Error 404 (Not Found)!!1

During the time of Ceasar, the "Gauls" or Celts were dominant in France.

On the map see the darkest red area, from Spain north through France into the British Islands.

IOW in keeping with certain Irish legends, they had come from across the seas.

Gaelic was spoken from Cornwall, Wales, and to Scotland, as well as Ireland.

[Elderberry]

Haplogroup R1b

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b

Haplogroup R1b (R-M343), also known as Hg1 and Eu18, is a human Y-chromosome haplogroup.

It is the most frequently occurring paternal lineage in Western Europe, as well as some parts of Russia (e.g. the Bashkir minority) and Central Africa (e.g. Chad and Cameroon). The clade is also present at lower frequencies throughout Eastern Europe, Western Asia, as well as parts of North Africa and Central Asia.

R1b has two primary branches: R1b1a-L754 and R1b1b-PH155. R1b1a1a2-M269, which predominates in Western Europe, and R1b1a2-V88, which is common in Central Africa, are both subclades of R1b-L754. R1b1b-PH155 is so rare and widely dispersed that it is difficult to draw any conclusions about its origins. It has been found in Bahrain, Bhutan, Ladakh, Tajikistan, Turkey, and Western China.

According to autosomal DNA studies the majority of modern R1b and R1a would have expanded from the Caspian Sea along with the Indo-European languages

Origin and dispersal
Genetic studies performed since 2015 have revealed that the Yamna culture, thought to have spoken some stage of Proto-Indo-Europeans, carried R1b-L23.

The age of R1 was estimated by Tatiana Karafet et al. (2008) at between 12,500 and 25,700 BP, and most probably occurred about 18,500 years ago.[8] Since the earliest known example has been dated at circa 14,000 BP, and belongs to R1b1a (R-L754),[9] R1b must have arisen relatively soon after the emergence of R1.

The oldest human remains found to carry R1b include:

    Villabruna 1 (individual I9030), found in an Epigravettian culture setting in the Cismon valley (modern Veneto, Italy), who lived circa 14,000 years BP and belonged to R1b-L754,[9]
    numerous individuals from the Mesolithic Iron Gates culture of the central Danube (modern Romania and Serbia), dating from 10,000 to 8,500 BP – most of them falling into R1b-L754;[10]
    two individuals, dating from circa 7,800–6,800 BP, found at the Zvejnieki burial ground, belonging to the Narva culture of the Baltic neolithic, both determined to belong to the R1b-P297 subclade,[11] and;
    the "Samara hunter-gatherer" (I0124/SVP44), who lived approximately 7,500 BP in the Volga River area and carried R1b-L278

I am R1b down this branch: R1b1a1a2-M269

[roamer_1]

And who would that be?

Dean Friggin Martin.

There. Now that you know, savor the disappointment!

[sneakypete]

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml

@sneakypete


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6n0_sZeQMM0

In my earlier post,I was actually referring to the Basque spreading their bloodlines with the original (as far as we know) inhabitants of the Scottish mountains. Thanks to chemo brain I can't remember their tribal name now,but they were the ones that liked to paint their bodies blue and run into battle naked. They scared the hell out of the Romans,and are the reason "Harridan's Wall" was built.