Flashback–Obama Admin: Universal Background Checks Need Gun Registry

[txradioguy]

Madison and Hamilton were on the same side of the argument, though.

No they weren't.  And it really goes to show your lack of understanding of the 2nd Amendment and why it was so important for the individual right to keep and bear arms was put in there.  Hamilton's own State of New York said they wouldn't ratify the Constitution and the Bill of Rights if the Second Amendment wasn't in there.

the States control the Militias.

No there aren't state Militias anymore.  And in the 18th Century the state didn't control the militias either. The local governments actually controlled them.  The militia was not employed as a fighting force in major operations outside the local jurisdiction.  They didn't even do the majority of the fighting in the Revolutionary war...that was handled by the Von Steuben trained Continental Army.

That's why the 2nd Amendment makes sure to mention that we need the Militia.

Militia in the 18th century was average citizens...free white men of just about any age.  They brought whatever weapon they owned with them if called upon by the local government officials to fight.

That's why the Constitution says "To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress"

Madison and Hamilton agree that the Militia is good as an insurance policy against a tyrannical government. They also agree that the States should control them.

It's written in the Constitution.

I'm not sure if you're purposely mixing different portions of the Constitution to try and muddle the conversation or you're really that obtuse.

They also said that "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

You want to keep focusing on just the first part...before the comma...but there are very important words after the punctuation that enshrine the individual right of firearms ownership to "the people" and make it very clear that right shall NOT be infringed.

That is written in the Constitution too.

[txradioguy]

The Founders believed privately owned weapons were necessary to protect the three great and primary rights, “personal security, personal liberty, and private property.” An armed people could protect themselves and their neighbors against crime and their liberties against tyranny. Madison and his colleagues converted their English right to “have Armes for their defence Suitable to their Condition, and as allowed by Law,” into a broader protection that took no account of status and forbade “infringement.” “As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people duly before them, may attempt to tyrannize,” the Philadelphia Federal Gazette explained when the proposed amendment was first publicized, “and as the military forces which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow-citizens, the people are confirmed . . . in their right to keep and bear their private arms.”

http://common-place.org/book/the-second-amendment-infringement/

In Federalist #46, Madison wrote that “the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation” is what made the new Republic unique and free.  This was written before the Second Amendment was proposed, written, and ratified.  It was placed second in the Bill of Rights for a reason.  The “right to bear arms” was as fundamental as the right to free speech and a trial by jury.

https://www.redstate.com/diary/davenj1/2019/07/20/commonsense-gun-control-nazism/

Hmmm looks like Madison wasn't as much in agreement with Hamilton as you want us to believe.

[Sanguine]

"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials." – George Mason, Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 1788

[OfTheCross]

No they weren't.  And it really goes to show your lack of understanding of the 2nd Amendment and why it was so important for the individual right to keep and bear arms was put in there.  Hamilton's own State of New York said they wouldn't ratify the Constitution and the Bill of Rights if the Second Amendment wasn't in there.

No there aren't state Militias anymore.  And in the 18th Century the state didn't control the militias either. The local governments actually controlled them.  The militia was not employed as a fighting force in major operations outside the local jurisdiction.  They didn't even do the majority of the fighting in the Revolutionary war...that was handled by the Von Steuben trained Continental Army.

Militia in the 18th century was average citizens...free white men of just about any age.  They brought whatever weapon they owned with them if called upon by the local government officials to fight.

I'm not sure if you're purposely mixing different portions of the Constitution to try and muddle the conversation or you're really that obtuse.

They also said that "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

You want to keep focusing on just the first part...before the comma...but there are very important words after the punctuation that enshrine the individual right of firearms ownership to "the people" and make it very clear that right shall NOT be infringed.

That is written in the Constitution too.

There were Federalists, and there were anti-Federalists. Hamilton and Madison were certainly on the same side.

You're saying the same thing as me in a different way. The Militias were not controlled by the Federal government. They were State/Locally controlled, as intended. But when needed the States were to provide the Federal government with the men. Look into the Whiskey Rebellion as an example.

We also agree on who was in the Militia, we can all participate(at the time it was White men of fighting age only). But it specifically said that we are to be "well regulated" and the States/Local Governments will do the Appointment of the Officers, and will be charged with the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress.

"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials." – George Mason, Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 1788

See my response above. All people except Slaves and Women. Hmm...

[OfTheCross]

http://common-place.org/book/the-second-amendment-infringement/


https://www.redstate.com/diary/davenj1/2019/07/20/commonsense-gun-control-nazism/

Hmmm looks like Madison wasn't as much in agreement with Hamilton as you want us to believe.

Read the paper yourself. The quote that I posted from him was also from Fed  #46

[roamer_1]

Are you of the opinion that we should have any weapon we'd like ?

I will have any weapon I like. And you will not stop me.

Well, comprehensive reform means that we do many things. I'd say that the laws for even possessing an illegal or unregistered firearm, in our imaginary future scenario, should be so harsh and such a deterrent that criminals will choose other methods of intimidation that don't cost them 40 years of their life.

You REALLY believe someone willing to commit murder or aggravated assault w/ a deadly weapon will consider that?? They are already doing crap that will put them in for 20 to life already.

[Sanguine]

There were Federalists, and there were anti-Federalists. Hamilton and Madison were certainly on the same side.

You're saying the same thing as me in a different way. The Militias were not controlled by the Federal government. They were State/Locally controlled, as intended. But when needed the States were to provide the Federal government with the men. Look into the Whiskey Rebellion as an example.

We also agree on who was in the Militia, we can all participate(at the time it was White men of fighting age only). But it specifically said that we are to be "well regulated" and the States/Local Governments will do the Appointment of the Officers, and will be charged with the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress.

See my response above. All people except Slaves and Women. Hmm...

If Mason had meant only men, he would have written "men".  Instead he used "people".  Women could and did use guns. 

[Cyber Liberty]

Are you of the opinion that we should have any weapon we'd like ?

Well, comprehensive reform means that we do many things. I'd say that the laws for even possessing an illegal or unregistered firearm, in our imaginary future scenario, should be so harsh and such a deterrent that criminals will choose other methods of intimidation that don't cost them 40 years of their life.

I will have any weapon I like. And you will not stop me.

You REALLY believe someone willing to commit murder or aggravated assault w/ a deadly weapon will consider that?? They are already doing crap that will put them in for 20 to life already.

No, it's just a boot stomping the face, but even harder. 

[txradioguy]

Comprehensive reform is already an abject failure where it’s been implemented.  Crime got worse not better.

[txradioguy]

Read the paper yourself. The quote that I posted from him was also from Fed  #46

I’ve read them many times.

And your interpretation of what they are saying is completely false.

[roamer_1]

No, it's just a boot stomping the face, but even harder.

Yeah I get it - But no one is stopping gun distribution, anymore than they can stop drug distribution or human trafficking.

The saying, "When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns," is true.
No one will stop it. No one.