Author Topic: Flashback–Obama Admin: Universal Background Checks Need Gun Registry  (Read 4675 times)

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Offline verga

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Re: Flashback–Obama Admin: Universal Background Checks Need Gun Registry
« Reply #25 on: September 07, 2019, 12:49:28 pm »
No I haven't. Give me an example or two and I'll research from there.
I see.

But, if we're the well regulated militia referenced in the 2nd amendment. Shouldn't the States be regulating us? Training us? Keeping us sharp for the moment we have to defend ourselves from the tyranny of the Federal government?
https://mises.org/wire/brief-history-repressive-regimes-and-their-gun-laws
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/please-repeat-registration-leads-to-confiscation-any-questions/
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/registration-always-leads-to-confiscation-a-lesson-from-new-zealand/
https://www.ammoland.com/2016/05/washington-post-disarmists-want-gun-registration/#axzz5yqHyMabK
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Online Bigun

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Re: Flashback–Obama Admin: Universal Background Checks Need Gun Registry
« Reply #26 on: September 07, 2019, 02:05:01 pm »
Okay...but we're talking about laws. You can justify anything by saying your executing your God given right of self preservation.

"I only stole that loaf of bread to preserve myself". It would still be a crime punishable by law because we live in a society where we agreed to follow said laws.

So, my question to you was based on the laws we follow.

You can choose not to answer that and we'll just agree fight another day  ****slapping :beer:

@OfTheCross

Read this:  The Federalist Papers : No. 29

And this: The Federalist Papers : No. 46

then get back to me.  You can do that can't you?  BTW: Both were written by the very person who drafted the 2nd amendment in the first place.  A fellow by the name of James Madison. Perhaps you have heard of him somewhere.

OOPS! I forgot to ask you where you find this right to steal someone elses loaf of bread?  I'm unable to find that anywhere.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2019, 02:07:47 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Idiot

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Re: Flashback–Obama Admin: Universal Background Checks Need Gun Registry
« Reply #27 on: September 07, 2019, 02:07:40 pm »
We?  The only thing you have ever shot off was your mouth.
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Flashback–Obama Admin: Universal Background Checks Need Gun Registry
« Reply #28 on: September 07, 2019, 02:09:03 pm »
We?  The only thing you have ever shot off was your mouth.

It probably gave him PTSD....
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Offline txradioguy

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Re: Flashback–Obama Admin: Universal Background Checks Need Gun Registry
« Reply #29 on: September 07, 2019, 02:13:28 pm »
Okay...but we're talking about laws. You can justify anything by saying your executing your God given right of self preservation.

"I only stole that loaf of bread to preserve myself". It would still be a crime punishable by law because we live in a society where we agreed to follow said laws.

So, my question to you was based on the laws we follow.

You can choose not to answer that and we'll just agree fight another day  ****slapping :beer:

You’re conflating laws and Constitutional rights. 

They’re two different things.

And while it may sound like a clever anti gun/gun regulation argument to you...it’s really not. 

« Last Edit: September 07, 2019, 02:14:50 pm by txradioguy »
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

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Online Bigun

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Re: Flashback–Obama Admin: Universal Background Checks Need Gun Registry
« Reply #30 on: September 07, 2019, 02:17:43 pm »
You’re conflating laws and Constitutional rights. 

They’re two different things.

And while it may sound like a clever anti gun/gun regulation argument to you...it’s really not.

 :yowsa:  Thank you @txradioguy I neglected to mention that in my response to his drivel.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline txradioguy

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Re: Flashback–Obama Admin: Universal Background Checks Need Gun Registry
« Reply #31 on: September 07, 2019, 02:19:48 pm »
:yowsa:  Thank you @txradioguy I neglected to mention that in my response to his drivel.

 :beer:
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline OfTheCross

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Re: Flashback–Obama Admin: Universal Background Checks Need Gun Registry
« Reply #32 on: September 07, 2019, 02:27:16 pm »
That is correct, you are learning grasshopper.

Are you of the opinion that we should have any weapon we'd like ?

They'll register them when they sign up for their "liability insurance" policies!!

 :silly:

Well, comprehensive reform means that we do many things. I'd say that the laws for even possessing an illegal or unregistered firearm, in our imaginary future scenario, should be so harsh and such a deterrent that criminals will choose other methods of intimidation that don't cost them 40 years of their life.


How benevolent of you.  Registration interferes with that part of the 2nd Amendment that says “shall not infringe”

Registration leads to confiscation every single time. 

But what about that other part of the 2nd Amendment?

If we're the well regulated Militia referenced in the 2nd amendment. Shouldn't the States be regulating us? Training us? Keeping us sharp for the moment we have to defend ourselves from the tyranny of the Federal government? Even registering us so that they know who they can count on?


https://mises.org/wire/brief-history-repressive-regimes-and-their-gun-laws
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/please-repeat-registration-leads-to-confiscation-any-questions/
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/registration-always-leads-to-confiscation-a-lesson-from-new-zealand/
https://www.ammoland.com/2016/05/washington-post-disarmists-want-gun-registration/#axzz5yqHyMabK

Thanks.

In reading those, we're fine because we have the 2nd Amendment. That wasn't the case in the other scenarios.

I'll look futher into it anyway, but this is from one of the links your provided:

Quote
"Because these countries had no equivalent of a Second Amendment, it was easy to pass “commonsense gun legislation,” the Orwellian term we hear today. "
If a well-regulated militia be the most natural defense of a free country, it ought certainly to be under the regulation and at the disposal of that body which is constituted the guardian of the national security.

Offline skeeter

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Re: Flashback–Obama Admin: Universal Background Checks Need Gun Registry
« Reply #33 on: September 07, 2019, 02:28:05 pm »
:yowsa:  Thank you @txradioguy I neglected to mention that in my response to his drivel.

It really is a waste of time arguing the RKBA issue with these types if they are unwilling to acknowledge the State's ultimate goal. All the 'common sense gun laws' they love to suggest sound so reasonable until it's clear all lead to government confiscation.

Which the left is finally coming right out and proposing, making all the effort unnecessary.

Online Bigun

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Re: Flashback–Obama Admin: Universal Background Checks Need Gun Registry
« Reply #34 on: September 07, 2019, 02:33:30 pm »
It really is a waste of time arguing the RKBA issue with these types if they are unwilling to acknowledge the State's ultimate goal. All the 'common sense gun laws' they love to suggest sound so reasonable until it's clear all lead to government confiscation.

Which the left is finally coming right out and proposing, making all the effort unnecessary.

Yeah! I know! But sometimes I get a little bored and out comes the ball of string!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline OfTheCross

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Re: Flashback–Obama Admin: Universal Background Checks Need Gun Registry
« Reply #35 on: September 07, 2019, 02:34:28 pm »
You’re conflating laws and Constitutional rights. 

They’re two different things.

And while it may sound like a clever anti gun/gun regulation argument to you...it’s really not.

The laws necessary for comprehensive gun reform have to be constitutional, though. In this case, we have to talk about laws as they would relate to our Constitutional rights.

To keep in line with the thread topic, a Gun Registry and Universal Background Checks does not disallow us, sane and mentally capable individuals, from having guns.
If a well-regulated militia be the most natural defense of a free country, it ought certainly to be under the regulation and at the disposal of that body which is constituted the guardian of the national security.

Offline skeeter

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Re: Flashback–Obama Admin: Universal Background Checks Need Gun Registry
« Reply #36 on: September 07, 2019, 02:42:01 pm »
Yeah! I know! But sometimes I get a little bored and out comes the ball of string!
888high58888

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Flashback–Obama Admin: Universal Background Checks Need Gun Registry
« Reply #37 on: September 07, 2019, 02:44:39 pm »
I have more important things to do today than talking to one of these:

For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Offline OfTheCross

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Re: Flashback–Obama Admin: Universal Background Checks Need Gun Registry
« Reply #38 on: September 07, 2019, 02:50:24 pm »
@OfTheCross

Read this:  The Federalist Papers : No. 29

And this: The Federalist Papers : No. 46

then get back to me.  You can do that can't you?  BTW: Both were written by the very person who drafted the 2nd amendment in the first place.  A fellow by the name of James Madison. Perhaps you have heard of him somewhere.

OOPS! I forgot to ask you where you find this right to steal someone elses loaf of bread?  I'm unable to find that anywhere.

I actually have a quote from one of these papers as my signature.

That's why I asked you if we're the well regulated militia referenced in the 2nd amendment. Shouldn't the States be regulating us? Training us? Keeping us sharp for the moment we have to defend ourselves from the tyranny of the Federal government?
If a well-regulated militia be the most natural defense of a free country, it ought certainly to be under the regulation and at the disposal of that body which is constituted the guardian of the national security.

Offline txradioguy

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Re: Flashback–Obama Admin: Universal Background Checks Need Gun Registry
« Reply #39 on: September 07, 2019, 03:06:10 pm »

But what about that other part of the 2nd Amendment?

If we're the well regulated Militia referenced in the 2nd amendment. Shouldn't the States be regulating us? Training us? Keeping us sharp for the moment we have to defend ourselves from the tyranny of the Federal government? Even registering us so that they know who they can count on?


Nice of you to assume everything has to be managed by the state.

It shows the level of your indoctrination into the cult of Liberalism.

Well-regulated in the 18th century tended to be something like well-organized, well-armed, well-disciplined.  It didn't mean “regulation” in the sense that we use it now, in that it's not about the regulatory state. There's been nuance there. It means the militia was in an effective shape to fight.


« Last Edit: September 07, 2019, 03:11:41 pm by txradioguy »
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Online Bigun

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Re: Flashback–Obama Admin: Universal Background Checks Need Gun Registry
« Reply #40 on: September 07, 2019, 03:12:19 pm »
I actually have a quote from one of these papers as my signature.

That's why I asked you if we're the well regulated militia referenced in the 2nd amendment. Shouldn't the States be regulating us? Training us? Keeping us sharp for the moment we have to defend ourselves from the tyranny of the Federal government?

The phrase "well-regulated" was in common use long before 1789, and remained so for a century thereafter. It referred to the property of something being in proper working order. Something that was well-regulated was calibrated correctly, functioning as expected. Establishing government oversight of the people's arms was not only not the intent in using the phrase in the 2nd amendment, it was precisely to render the government powerless to do so that the founders wrote it.

Does that clear things up for you?

Here's a little primer for you should you care to read.  https://armsandthelaw.com/archives/WellRegulatedinold%20literature.pdf

« Last Edit: September 07, 2019, 03:17:59 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline txradioguy

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Re: Flashback–Obama Admin: Universal Background Checks Need Gun Registry
« Reply #41 on: September 07, 2019, 03:15:07 pm »
@OfTheCross how will registration stop criminals from getting guns?

Why does everything your side proposes ALWAYS punish the law abiding gun owners and never addresses the criminal element?

All y’all ever want to do  is make people less safe and more vulnerable to crime.

Why is that?
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline verga

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Re: Flashback–Obama Admin: Universal Background Checks Need Gun Registry
« Reply #42 on: September 07, 2019, 06:20:23 pm »
The laws necessary for comprehensive gun reform have to be constitutional, though. In this case, we have to talk about laws as they would relate to our Constitutional rights.

To keep in line with the thread topic, a Gun Registry and Universal Background Checks does not disallow us, sane and mentally capable individuals, from having guns.
By definition any attempt at "comprehensive gun reform" is unconstitutional, because every one of them is an infringement to one degree or another.

infringe verb
in·​fringe | \ in-ˈfrinj  \
infringed; infringing
Definition of infringe
transitive verb

1: to encroach upon in a way that violates law or the rights of another
infringe a patent
In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
�More than any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness. The other, to total extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly.�-Woody Allen
If God invented marathons to keep people from doing anything more stupid, the triathlon must have taken him completely by surprise.

Offline OfTheCross

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Re: Flashback–Obama Admin: Universal Background Checks Need Gun Registry
« Reply #43 on: September 07, 2019, 06:25:07 pm »
Nice of you to assume everything has to be managed by the state.

It shows the level of your indoctrination into the cult of Liberalism.

Well-regulated in the 18th century tended to be something like well-organized, well-armed, well-disciplined.  It didn't mean “regulation” in the sense that we use it now, in that it's not about the regulatory state. There's been nuance there. It means the militia was in an effective shape to fight.

Let's be clear, by State, I mean the State where you reside, as that's what Hamilton meant. The argument was for State control of the militias so that we wouldn't have to worry about tyranny from the National government.

Organization and Discipline are types of regulations. The framers weren't advocating for and Tom, Dick, and Harry w/o any training. They wanted someone that was moderately trained. These militias were supposed to be our main defense against invaders. You have to be trained, organized and regulated in a way that when duty calls, we're ready for action.

The phrase "well-regulated" was in common use long before 1789, and remained so for a century thereafter. It referred to the property of something being in proper working order. Something that was well-regulated was calibrated correctly, functioning as expected. Establishing government oversight of the people's arms was not only not the intent in using the phrase in the 2nd amendment, it was precisely to render the government powerless to do so that the founders wrote it.

Does that clear things up for you?

Here's a little primer for you should you care to read.  https://armsandthelaw.com/archives/WellRegulatedinold%20literature.pdf



And how do we become well regulated? The States are supposed to train us. They're suppose to oversee our training at the very least and make sure that we're calibrated correctly and functioning as expected.

Knowing who can fight (background checks). Knowing what guns we're skilled with (registry), etc, are parts of the State (individual States) function in training and choosing the Militia.

Quote
"to provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, RESERVING TO THE STATES RESPECTIVELY THE APPOINTMENT OF THE OFFICERS, AND THE AUTHORITY OF TRAINING THE MILITIA ACCORDING TO THE DISCIPLINE PRESCRIBED BY CONGRESS.''

It is the duty of the States to make us well regulated.

@OfTheCross how will registration stop criminals from getting guns?

Why does everything your side proposes ALWAYS punish the law abiding gun owners and never addresses the criminal element?

All y’all ever want to do  is make people less safe and more vulnerable to crime.

Why is that?

We can all still have guns. All us good guys and sane individuals will have ours registered.

I said earlier that "the laws for even possessing an illegal or unregistered firearm, in our imaginary future scenario, should be so harsh and such a deterrent that criminals will choose other methods of intimidation that don't cost them 40 years of their life."

If a crazy person or criminal is caught with an unregistered gun, they're toast.

That's just one idea...
If a well-regulated militia be the most natural defense of a free country, it ought certainly to be under the regulation and at the disposal of that body which is constituted the guardian of the national security.

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Flashback–Obama Admin: Universal Background Checks Need Gun Registry
« Reply #44 on: September 07, 2019, 06:39:50 pm »
I can't wait to be the one deciding "sane."  I'd do to Dem plants what the Dem plants want to do to us. 
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Offline txradioguy

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Re: Flashback–Obama Admin: Universal Background Checks Need Gun Registry
« Reply #45 on: September 07, 2019, 06:49:39 pm »
Let's be clear, by State, I mean the State where you reside, as that's what Hamilton meant. The argument was for State control of the militias so that we wouldn't have to worry about tyranny from the National government.

Hamilton was a big government Lib.  Just like you.

Publius wrote Federalist 29 a year or more before the Framers met to write the bill of rights.

Clearly his opinion didn't make the cut when the Second Amendment was written.

Quote
Organization and Discipline are types of regulations. The framers weren't advocating for and Tom, Dick, and Harry w/o any training. They wanted someone that was moderately trained. These militias were supposed to be our main defense against invaders. You have to be trained, organized and regulated in a way that when duty calls, we're ready for action.

And how do we become well regulated? The States are supposed to train us. They're suppose to oversee our training at the very least and make sure that we're calibrated correctly and functioning as expected.

Knowing who can fight (background checks). Knowing what guns we're skilled with (registry), etc, are parts of the State (individual States) function in training and choosing the Militia.

I suggest you educate yourself on Madison's notes...especially since he wrote the Bill of Rights.  You're desperately holding onto a mindset that didn't exist among the states by the time the Bill of Rights was approved in 1791.  In fact many of the states demanded the inclusion of the Second Amendment before they would ratify the Bill of Rights.

Quote
It is the duty of the States to make us well regulated.

No...it's not.  No matter how many times you repeat that false Liberal trope.


Quote
We can all still have guns. All us good guys and sane individuals will have ours registered.


And here we go again...a Progressive anti-gunner trying to change the language and frame people that believe in the Second Amendment as written as bad guys and insane and people that want to violate the 2nd Amendment with unconstitutional registration as sane and the good guys.

Sorry...your tactics have no effect here.

Quote
I said earlier that "the laws for even possessing an illegal or unregistered firearm, in our imaginary future scenario, should be so harsh and such a deterrent that criminals will choose other methods of intimidation that don't cost them 40 years of their life."

This isn't an imaginary scenario or some mental exercise.  This is happening right now TODAY with all the regulation and violations of the second Amendment we have going on in places like New York...LA...Chicago by criminal who laugh at every restrictive gun law that gets passed.  Because they know they'll never obey them.

And in the case of Chicago...you have convicted felons being arrested on gun charges and released without having to pay their bail.

Quote
If a crazy person or criminal is caught with an unregistered gun, they're toast.


And yet the reality is...they aren't.  You and others want to continue to punish law abiding civilians and give criminals a pass.

Quote
That's just one idea...

It's a dumb one.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline txradioguy

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Re: Flashback–Obama Admin: Universal Background Checks Need Gun Registry
« Reply #46 on: September 07, 2019, 06:51:05 pm »
I can't wait to be the one deciding "sane."  I'd do to Dem plants what the Dem plants want to do to us.

@Cyber Liberty he's another one like Jazzy trying to change the language of the debate.  Suddenly the ones supporting unconstitutional measures are "sane" and the "good guys".



The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline OfTheCross

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Re: Flashback–Obama Admin: Universal Background Checks Need Gun Registry
« Reply #47 on: September 07, 2019, 07:54:39 pm »
Hamilton was a big government Lib.  Just like you.

Publius wrote Federalist 29 a year or more before the Framers met to write the bill of rights.

Clearly his opinion didn't make the cut when the Second Amendment was written.

I suggest you educate yourself on Madison's notes...especially since he wrote the Bill of Rights.  You're desperately holding onto a mindset that didn't exist among the states by the time the Bill of Rights was approved in 1791.  In fact many of the states demanded the inclusion of the Second Amendment before they would ratify the Bill of Rights.

No...it's not.  No matter how many times you repeat that false Liberal trope.

 

And here we go again...a Progressive anti-gunner trying to change the language and frame people that believe in the Second Amendment as written as bad guys and insane and people that want to violate the 2nd Amendment with unconstitutional registration as sane and the good guys.

Sorry...your tactics have no effect here.

This isn't an imaginary scenario or some mental exercise.  This is happening right now TODAY with all the regulation and violations of the second Amendment we have going on in places like New York...LA...Chicago by criminal who laugh at every restrictive gun law that gets passed.  Because they know they'll never obey them.

And in the case of Chicago...you have convicted felons being arrested on gun charges and released without having to pay their bail.
 

And yet the reality is...they aren't.  You and others want to continue to punish law abiding civilians and give criminals a pass.

It's a dumb one.


Madison and Hamilton were on the same side of the argument, though.

Quote
But were the people to possess the additional advantages of local governments chosen by themselves, who could collect the national will and direct the national force, and of officers appointed out of the militia, by these governments, and attached both to them and to the militia, it may be affirmed with the greatest assurance, that the throne of every tyranny in Europe would be speedily overturned in spite of the legions which surround it. - Madison

the States control the Militias.

That's why the 2nd Amendment makes sure to mention that we need the Militia.

That's why the Constitution says "To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress"

Madison and Hamilton agree that the Militia is good as an insurance policy against a tyrannical government. They also agree that the States should control them.

It's written in the Constitution.
If a well-regulated militia be the most natural defense of a free country, it ought certainly to be under the regulation and at the disposal of that body which is constituted the guardian of the national security.

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Flashback–Obama Admin: Universal Background Checks Need Gun Registry
« Reply #48 on: September 07, 2019, 08:24:29 pm »
@Cyber Liberty he's another one like Jazzy trying to change the language of the debate.  Suddenly the ones supporting unconstitutional measures are "sane" and the "good guys".

Watch him tell us what's in the Constitution while redefining all the words in it.

Oh, wait.....
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Offline OfTheCross

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Re: Flashback–Obama Admin: Universal Background Checks Need Gun Registry
« Reply #49 on: September 07, 2019, 08:48:00 pm »
Watch him tell us what's in the Constitution while redefining all the words in it.

Oh, wait.....

So, what did I redefine exactly?

If a well-regulated militia be the most natural defense of a free country, it ought certainly to be under the regulation and at the disposal of that body which is constituted the guardian of the national security.