Author Topic: China retaliates against the US with tariffs on $75B worth of American goods  (Read 2543 times)

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Online libertybele

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  you are clueless.  uneducated and  a knee jerk trump hater.

Obviously, you don't know me.
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Offline EdJames

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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Obviously, when you are taxed, you lose wealth (or at least a potential claim on future wealth if you pay in cash).  But that's different from the statement that, "Everytime you purchase something you give up wealth".  If one properly understands trade, and assuming the trade is voluntary, the proper statement would be, "Every time you purchase something you gain wealth" since if you weren't better off from the trade you wouldn't make it in the first place.

If you purchase a stock that goes down, your actual wealth remains the same, just as it would if the stock went up.  Your potential wealth has changed, or at least it is likely to once you sell.
Here's where we are different.

I do not believe that the purchase of a speculative investment, such as purchasing stock, is what you call 'actual wealth'.  It has a component of risk associated with it, so it could be partially or totally lost. How can you call that 'actual wealth'?

Wealth is a more tangible asset than that.  Although you appear not to agree that money is actual wealth, a savings or checking account to me is actual wealth as it stands little risk of not being there when needed.

I also see you added an adjective of 'potential' to the word wealth.  I do not agree with you that your actual wealth remains the same when purchasing a stock that goes down.

I also do not agree with the statement  "Every time you purchase something you gain wealth" since if you weren't better off from the trade you wouldn't make it in the first place..  At times one makes purchases not to increase wealth but to cover necessities.  At other times one makes purchases to speculate for potentially increasing wealth.  Those latter amounts are subject to risk once again and could result in a decrease in wealth.

Maybe the word wealth is where all the problems are here and the adjectives we give it.
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Offline edpc

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Trump, who announced higher tariffs on Chinese goods last week, raised eyebrows during a meeting with British Prime Minister Boris Johnson at the G7 when he responded in the affirmative to questions from reporters on whether he had any second thoughts about the tariff move.

White House spokeswoman Stephanie Grisham sought to explain the remark.

"His answer has been greatly misinterpreted. President Trump responded in the affirmative - because he regrets not raising the tariffs higher," she said in a statement.


https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/trump-regrets-not-raising-tariffs-114857417.html


OK - so what’s  stopping him? This is the political equivalent of the loudmouth in the bar, telling you how lucky you are his friends are holding him back.
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Offline Sanguine

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Obviously, you don't know me.

Obviously he doesn't.  What's up with that @The Ghost?

Offline InHeavenThereIsNoBeer

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Here's where we are different.

I do not believe that the purchase of a speculative investment, such as purchasing stock, is what you call 'actual wealth'.  It has a component of risk associated with it, so it could be partially or totally lost. How can you call that 'actual wealth'?

Wealth is a more tangible asset than that.  Although you appear not to agree that money is actual wealth, a savings or checking account to me is actual wealth as it stands little risk of not being there when needed.

I also see you added an adjective of 'potential' to the word wealth.  I do not agree with you that your actual wealth remains the same when purchasing a stock that goes down.

I also do not agree with the statement  "Every time you purchase something you gain wealth" since if you weren't better off from the trade you wouldn't make it in the first place..  At times one makes purchases not to increase wealth but to cover necessities.  At other times one makes purchases to speculate for potentially increasing wealth.  Those latter amounts are subject to risk once again and could result in a decrease in wealth.

Maybe the word wealth is where all the problems are here and the adjectives we give it.

I don't consider stocks actual wealth, but, like currency, potential wealth.  They have no true utility, until you trade them for something that does.
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Offline skeeter

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Which is why I oppose tariffs since they force me to pay more for an item than I would have paid without the tariff.  And if you tax something, you get less of it.  Econ 101.

Or you could purchase an alternative product. Invisible hand of the market and all that. Also Econ 101.

Offline XenaLee

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Trump, who announced higher tariffs on Chinese goods last week, raised eyebrows during a meeting with British Prime Minister Boris Johnson at the G7 when he responded in the affirmative to questions from reporters on whether he had any second thoughts about the tariff move.

White House spokeswoman Stephanie Grisham sought to explain the remark.

"His answer has been greatly misinterpreted. President Trump responded in the affirmative - because he regrets not raising the tariffs higher," she said in a statement.


https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/trump-regrets-not-raising-tariffs-114857417.html


OK - so what’s  stopping him? This is the political equivalent of the loudmouth in the bar, telling you how lucky you are his friends are holding him back.

And .... speaking of the loudmouth in the bar......

it really sounds like you two have a lot in common.    :whistle:
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Offline edpc

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And .... speaking of the loudmouth in the bar......

it really sounds like you two have a lot in common.    :whistle:


Are you collaborating with Grisham? I mean, because, what a sick burn.    *****rollingeyes*****
I disagree.  Circle gets the square.

Offline XenaLee

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Are you collaborating with Grisham? I mean, because, what a sick burn.    *****rollingeyes*****

Lol!   No.  It's just that.... on the subject of Donald Trump....

you come off as rather belligerent.   So I had to point out the similarity.  Just sayin.
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Offline edpc

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Lol!   No.  It's just that.... on the subject of Donald Trump....

you come off as rather belligerent.   So I had to point out the similarity.  Just sayin.


How else am I supposed to sound when someone blatantly lies about who is actually paying the tariffs? He also brags about them damaging the second largest economy in the world. That’s true, but it also has a ripple effect on other economies. So, when we see the slowdown effects of that, how are we supposed to respond, when he says the MSM wants a recession? It’s a real world effect of the policy. He doesn’t get to pretend he had nothing to do with it.
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Offline XenaLee

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How else am I supposed to sound when someone blatantly lies about who is actually paying the tariffs? He also brags about them damaging the second largest economy in the world. That’s true, but it also has a ripple effect on other economies. So, when we see the slowdown effects of that, how are we supposed to respond, when he says the MSM wants a recession? It’s a real world effect of the policy. He doesn’t get to pretend he had nothing to do with it.

While I don't agree with tariffs... I do actually understand what he is trying to accomplish via these raised tariffs on China.  Do you?
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Offline edpc

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While I don't agree with tariffs... I do actually understand what he is trying to accomplish via these raised tariffs on China.  Do you?


Of course, but he’s dishonest about the process. If the tariffs are causing China to pay so much money to the US Treasury, why not make them 100%? The reason is because the US consumer bears the brunt of it. It’s similar to the liberal fallacy, concerning a $15 minimum wage.
I disagree.  Circle gets the square.

Offline XenaLee

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Of course, but he’s dishonest about the process. If the tariffs are causing China to pay so much money to the US Treasury, why not make them 100%? The reason is because the US consumer bears the brunt of it. It’s similar to the liberal fallacy, concerning a $15 minimum wage.

Well, the economy is humming and folks are not, currently, hurting (for the most part).   So he probably figures it's now or never, right?   If ever we're going to correct the ($1 trillion a year loss to America) imbalance, it has to be now.   I get that.   Yeah, it's going to cause prices to go up on stuff we need or want to buy.   I also get that.   But there's that olde adage... no pain, no gain.   At least, that's how I'm reading his motivation.   If putting pressure on China to come to the 'fair trade' table honestly and stop manipulating their currency to the detriment of America, it will, in the long run, be worth it.   Except...

for the fact that the RL is, as we speak, busily trying to melt down the economy.   This may just be all the leverage they need.   Dunno.   :shrug:
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Offline skeeter

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Well, the economy is humming and folks are not, currently, hurting (for the most part).   So he probably figures it's now or never, right?   If ever we're going to correct the ($1 trillion a year loss to America) imbalance, it has to be now.   I get that.   Yeah, it's going to cause prices to go up on stuff we need or want to buy.   I also get that.   But there's that olde adage... no pain, no gain.   At least, that's how I'm reading his motivation.   If putting pressure on China to come to the 'fair trade' table honestly and stop manipulating their currency to the detriment of America, it will, in the long run, be worth it.   Except...

for the fact that the RL is, as we speak, busily trying to melt down the economy.   This may just be all the leverage they need.   Dunno.   :shrug:

All the handwringing about China tariffs causing consumer pain makes me chuckle. In our area the min wage went from 9 to 15 per hour in just a few years. Talk about inflationary - small businesses here are dying. At least there are alternatives to buying Chinese.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2019, 04:56:37 pm by skeeter »

Offline XenaLee

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All the handwringing about China tariffs causing consumer pain make me chuckle. In our area the min wage went from 9 to 15 per hour in just a few years. Talk about inflationary - small businesses here are dying. At least there are alternatives to buying Chinese.

If we could bring manufacturing here in the US back, we wouldn't need China's cheap crap.  I would love that, personally.   But at this point, considering what we're up against (America's enemy within obstructionist and destructive Democrats).... it sounds like a pipe dream.

No quarter given to the enemy within...ever.

You can vote your way into socialism, but you have to shoot your way out of it.

Offline edpc

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All the handwringing about China tariffs causing consumer pain makes me chuckle. In our area the min wage went from 9 to 15 per hour in just a few years. Talk about inflationary - small businesses here are dying. At least there are alternatives to buying Chinese.


It must’ve been side splitting for you, when, just two weeks ago, Trump delayed the tariffs for the following reason....

“We’re doing this for the Christmas season. Just in case some of the tariffs would have an impact on U.S. customers.”

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/trump-delays-tariffs-to-appease-christmas-shoppers-203113444.html


The manufacturing isn’t coming here, due to tariffs. It’s going to SE Asian countries, India, Philippines, and Mexico.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2018/07/30/trade-war-casualties-factories-shifting-out-of-china/#40c01e6f103e
I disagree.  Circle gets the square.

Online Bigun

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It must’ve been side splitting for you, when, just two weeks ago, Trump delayed the tariffs for the following reason....

“We’re doing this for the Christmas season. Just in case some of the tariffs would have an impact on U.S. customers.”

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/trump-delays-tariffs-to-appease-christmas-shoppers-203113444.html


The manufacturing isn’t coming here, due to tariffs. It’s going to SE Asian countries, India, Philippines, and Mexico.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2018/07/30/trade-war-casualties-factories-shifting-out-of-china/#40c01e6f103e

It would be coming here if we had a decent tax code instead of the Marxist mess we currently suffer.
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Offline verga

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That's being taxed, not making a purchase.
You are incorrect. Taxes are the price of State and federal roads, Public schools, our military, police and fire protection, etc.......
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Offline edpc

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It would be coming here if we had a decent tax code instead of the Marxist mess we currently suffer.


Remind me, who passed and signed the current corporate tax code?
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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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I don't consider stocks actual wealth, but, like currency, potential wealth.  They have no true utility, until you trade them for something that does.
So why did you answer me point blank it is not taking away from wealth when I made the statement when you use your money to purchase something it does?

Can you explain?

And now I see you taking the position that currency (money in the bank) is not actual wealth at all but potential wealth?

What in your mind is actual wealth then?
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Offline InHeavenThereIsNoBeer

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So why did you answer me point blank it is not taking away from wealth when I made the statement when you use your money to purchase something it does?

Can you explain?

And now I see you taking the position that currency (money in the bank) is not actual wealth at all but potential wealth?

What in your mind is actual wealth then?

What I refer to as actual wealth is something that I can use, say a 5 gal can full of E0.  Stuff.

Money/currency is a way to store wealth.  A $20 bill can't move my boat, but I can exchange it for a 5 gal can full of E0 which can.  When I make that purchase, I'm not losing wealth, I'm simply transferring it from one form to another (like changing potential energy to kinetic energy).   When I burn the gas, assuming I'm not producing anything in return, that's when I lose wealth.
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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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What I refer to as actual wealth is something that I can use, say a 5 gal can full of E0.  Stuff.

Money/currency is a way to store wealth.  A $20 bill can't move my boat, but I can exchange it for a 5 gal can full of E0 which can.  When I make that purchase, I'm not losing wealth, I'm simply transferring it from one form to another (like changing potential energy to kinetic energy).   When I burn the gas, assuming I'm not producing anything in return, that's when I lose wealth.
I think I am partially understanding what you mean.

You do not equate most of people's assets (the bulk of what most people have in savings, 401ks, IRAs, etc.) as 'actual wealth' but as 'stored wealth'; instead, the way 'actual wealth' can be procured is through reducing 'stored wealth' by purchasing something else to make it 'actual wealth'.  In spending money, one does not change wealth.

By that reasoning, most people who save really do not have much in the way of 'actual wealth' as they simply have a lot of 'potential wealth' in those financial assets.

Am still not clear how me burning up gasoline in my car after making a purchase at the gas station translates to increasing my 'actual wealth' instead of reducing it, but guess I will have to just remain befuddled.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2019, 12:32:19 am by IsailedawayfromFR »
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Offline InHeavenThereIsNoBeer

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I think I am partially understanding what you mean.

You do not equate most of people's assets (the bulk of what most people have in savings, 401ks, IRAs, etc.) as 'actual wealth' but as 'stored wealth'; instead, the way 'actual wealth' can be procured is through reducing 'stored wealth' by purchasing something else to make it 'actual wealth'.  In spending money, one does not change wealth.

By that reasoning, most people who save really do not have much in the way of 'actual wealth' as they simply have a lot of 'potential wealth' in those financial assets.

Am still not clear how me burning up gasoline in my car after making a purchase at the gas station translates to increasing my 'actual wealth' instead of reducing it, but guess I will have to just remain befuddled.

Yes.  Wealth ~= stuff + money.

Burning the gas, assuming you're not using it for something like going to work or other productive activity, does decrease your wealth.  But the purchase itself is just a transfer.
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Online Hoodat

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While I don't agree with tariffs... I do actually understand what he is trying to accomplish via these raised tariffs on China.  Do you?

He is encouraging American manufacturers to raise their prices because of artificial restraints on their competitors. And he is also discouraging the innovation needed to gain a competitive edge.  Instead of waiting out in efficiencies, American companies can simply absorb them by raising prices.
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