Author Topic: Florida Man Lost His 2A Rights, Thanks To Red Flag Laws And Mistaken Identity  (Read 9744 times)

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Offline Sanguine

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If there was ever a case that showed why red flag laws are completely unacceptable, this is it.  It's impossible for a reasonable person to defend.

Offline thackney

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@Cyber Liberty

I don't think you got the right link.

That's possible.  I'll just repeat the question in a more clear manner.

Is it appropriate for a State to force someone to pay to rectify an error made by the State?

@Jazzhead I am not trying to bait you or set you up for another shot.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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If there was ever a case that showed why red flag laws are completely unacceptable, this is it.  It's impossible for a reasonable person to defend.

"It's a feature, not a bug."
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Online Smokin Joe

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No, the presumption of innocence isn't flipped.    The purpose of a TRO,  much like that of the temporary sequestration of a gun,  is to preserve the status quo ante while due process unfolds.    If a man credibly accused of domestic violence is ordered to stay away from his family home pending a hearing,  that's to (hopefully) keep him from harming his spouse.   But at the hearing,  the accuser still bears the burden of showing the restraining order should be permanent.

Same with the temporary sequestration of a gun.   The man's gun isn't being confiscated,  it is being temporarily taken away by reason of the credible accusation.   But at the hearing,  the state must prove that the conditions exist for confiscation;  the man's presumption of innocence remains.   Here,  where the credible accusation involves mistaken identity,  it should be a simple matter for the man to show that and get his gun back.   
One of my firearms was stolen. It took months to get it back.

It wasn't taken over a question of my identity, nor over any action against me by Law Enforcement, mistaken or otherwise. I was robbed, and then had to prove ownership, and get my firearm returned in an area where the dockets are full, but not anything like big cities.
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Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

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One of my firearms was stolen. It took months to get it back.

It wasn't taken over a question of my identity, nor over any action against me by Law Enforcement, mistaken or otherwise. I was robbed, and then had to prove ownership, and get my firearm returned in an area where the dockets are full, but not anything like big cities.

Did you have to pay to get it back?  Clear a background check?
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Online Smokin Joe

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Did you have to pay to get it back?  Clear a background check?
No, I didn't have to pay, and I have a CCW Permit, so no background check.
I had filed a police report on the theft a day before it was recovered (by police) during an arrest.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

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No, I didn't have to pay, and I have a CCW Permit, so no background check.
I had filed a police report on the theft a day before it was recovered (by police) during an arrest.

A happy ending!  I hope it wasn't too much of a PITA.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Offline Jazzhead

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That's possible.  I'll just repeat the question in a more clear manner.

Is it appropriate for a State to force someone to pay to rectify an error made by the State?

I think it would be right for the State to address an error swiftly and to compensate the man for his legal expense in getting the mistake corrected.   

But this case is the anomaly.   Most of the time,  the State identifies the correct individual credibly accused of domestic abuse.   In such a case,  I see no reason for the State to pay the accused's legal expenses. 
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Offline Jazzhead

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If there was ever a case that showed why red flag laws are completely unacceptable, this is it.  It's impossible for a reasonable person to defend.

It's no more "impossible to defend" than with any other TRO based on a credible accusation of danger to another.   The State's job is to vet the credibility of an accusation before imposing the remedy of a TRO.   
It's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide

Online Cyber Liberty

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 **nononono*
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Offline Sanguine

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It's no more "impossible to defend" than with any other TRO based on a credible accusation of danger to another.   The State's job is to vet the credibility of an accusation before imposing the remedy of a TRO.   

I said a "reasonable person". 

Offline EdJames

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It's no more "impossible to defend" than with any other TRO based on a credible accusation of danger to another.   The State's job is to vet the credibility of an accusation before imposing the remedy of a TRO.   

But they don't.  Virtually all jurisdictions accept the petitioner's motion without any vetting.  Police, prosecutors, and judges will state directly that they accept a woman's petition against any male, because the danger is too great if they don't, in error.  They will also tell you that this sentiment was more or less codified as fallout from the passage of the Violence Against Women Act of 1994.

Read a bit of background:

Protective Orders, Burdens of Proof, and Court Procedure

In most jurisdictions, the proponent that domestic abuse has occurred carries the burden of proving the claim by only a “preponderance of the evidence.” A “preponderance” simply means that the party must prove that it is more likely than not that the abuse occurred. This is the lowest legal standard of proof in the court system and a great deal of discretion is left to a trial court in determining whether that standard has been met. All too often, Courts will issue a restraining order on extraordinarily weak evidence in order to err on the side of caution. After all, no Judge seeking reelection wants their picture splashed across the pages of the daily news trumpeting their failure to protect an abused person who is then later assaulted.

It is equally confounding that civil domestic abuse hearings are conducted with little time to prepare, particularly for a defendant, as well as in an abbreviated fashion to accommodate the court’s crowded docket. Whereas a person alleging domestic abuse may plan their case ahead, compiling documentation or manufacturing other evidence to support their claims, a defendant is often required to prepare a response to allegations of abuse in one or two weeks or less. When an evidentiary hearing is held, the Court may often limit testimony and evidence to fit the case into its busy schedule, often affording the parties less than an hour or two to present the case. Since procedurally the defendant presents their case second, his time is often extraordinarily limited.

In most jurisdictions, an application for a domestic abuse restraining order will include seeking an ex parte emergency order followed later by more permanent order issued after a return hearing in court. In order for an ex parte restraining order to enter, a person (often assisted by a battered woman’s shelter, advocate or domestic abuse office) may file a Motion and Affidavit seeking ex parte relief. Ex parte relief is emergency relief and the allegations considered by the court are one sided without and rebuttal by the person accused. Based on this one sided submission, the Court may issue a temporary restraining order that removes the defendant from the family home, precludes contact between the defendant and the victim and, often the children, and sets the matter for a court hearing in the near future, but often weeks away.

At the return hearing, the parties are advised to bring their witnesses and evidence to address the issues of abuse raised by the ex parte petition. At this hearing, the Court in many jurisdictions will offer a defendant the following options:
• Agree to the Restraining Order with no findings that abuse has occurred;
• Proceed to an evidentiary hearing to Contest the Allegations.

The first option is often attractive given the low standards of proof that apply at domestic abuse hearings and the significant impact of a finding that abuse has occurred. Remember a finding that domestic abuse has occurred may create a presumption that the person should not be awarded custody of children. Agreeing to a restraining order without any findings of abuse may be a way for the defendant to live to fight another day in family court where there are custody issues involved. The downside of such a concession is that:
• a restraining order will enter for as long as a year, unless modified by a subsequent court order, that may restrict contact with the family home and children involved;
• any violation of the order results in criminal action, this providing fodder for future false allegations that the order was violated;
• the victim may later try to extend the order beyond its current time period and may often do so on flimsy evidence.

The second option, contesting the allegations in court, requires an aggressive defense. All too often crowded domestic abuse calendars result in foreshortened hearings in which a court enters an order that can significantly affect the future rights of a defendant. You should always consider hiring an attorney is such settings to ensure that your rights are protected, that evidence is properly presented and so that inconsistencies in false allegations of abuse may be exposed.

https://www.hg.org/legal-articles/fighting-false-allegations-of-domestic-abuse-6008


This flawed model, rife with abuse, is not a good example upon which further law should be based.


Online Bigun

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But they don't.  Virtually all jurisdictions accept the petitioner's motion without any vetting.  Police, prosecutors, and judges will state directly that they accept a woman's petition against any male, because the danger is too great if they don't, in error.  They will also tell you that this sentiment was more or less codified as fallout from the passage of the Violence Against Women Act of 1994.

Read a bit of background:

Protective Orders, Burdens of Proof, and Court Procedure

In most jurisdictions, the proponent that domestic abuse has occurred carries the burden of proving the claim by only a “preponderance of the evidence.” A “preponderance” simply means that the party must prove that it is more likely than not that the abuse occurred. This is the lowest legal standard of proof in the court system and a great deal of discretion is left to a trial court in determining whether that standard has been met. All too often, Courts will issue a restraining order on extraordinarily weak evidence in order to err on the side of caution. After all, no Judge seeking reelection wants their picture splashed across the pages of the daily news trumpeting their failure to protect an abused person who is then later assaulted.

It is equally confounding that civil domestic abuse hearings are conducted with little time to prepare, particularly for a defendant, as well as in an abbreviated fashion to accommodate the court’s crowded docket. Whereas a person alleging domestic abuse may plan their case ahead, compiling documentation or manufacturing other evidence to support their claims, a defendant is often required to prepare a response to allegations of abuse in one or two weeks or less. When an evidentiary hearing is held, the Court may often limit testimony and evidence to fit the case into its busy schedule, often affording the parties less than an hour or two to present the case. Since procedurally the defendant presents their case second, his time is often extraordinarily limited.

In most jurisdictions, an application for a domestic abuse restraining order will include seeking an ex parte emergency order followed later by more permanent order issued after a return hearing in court. In order for an ex parte restraining order to enter, a person (often assisted by a battered woman’s shelter, advocate or domestic abuse office) may file a Motion and Affidavit seeking ex parte relief. Ex parte relief is emergency relief and the allegations considered by the court are one sided without and rebuttal by the person accused. Based on this one sided submission, the Court may issue a temporary restraining order that removes the defendant from the family home, precludes contact between the defendant and the victim and, often the children, and sets the matter for a court hearing in the near future, but often weeks away.

At the return hearing, the parties are advised to bring their witnesses and evidence to address the issues of abuse raised by the ex parte petition. At this hearing, the Court in many jurisdictions will offer a defendant the following options:
• Agree to the Restraining Order with no findings that abuse has occurred;
• Proceed to an evidentiary hearing to Contest the Allegations.

The first option is often attractive given the low standards of proof that apply at domestic abuse hearings and the significant impact of a finding that abuse has occurred. Remember a finding that domestic abuse has occurred may create a presumption that the person should not be awarded custody of children. Agreeing to a restraining order without any findings of abuse may be a way for the defendant to live to fight another day in family court where there are custody issues involved. The downside of such a concession is that:
• a restraining order will enter for as long as a year, unless modified by a subsequent court order, that may restrict contact with the family home and children involved;
• any violation of the order results in criminal action, this providing fodder for future false allegations that the order was violated;
• the victim may later try to extend the order beyond its current time period and may often do so on flimsy evidence.

The second option, contesting the allegations in court, requires an aggressive defense. All too often crowded domestic abuse calendars result in foreshortened hearings in which a court enters an order that can significantly affect the future rights of a defendant. You should always consider hiring an attorney is such settings to ensure that your rights are protected, that evidence is properly presented and so that inconsistencies in false allegations of abuse may be exposed.

https://www.hg.org/legal-articles/fighting-false-allegations-of-domestic-abuse-6008


This flawed model, rife with abuse, is not a good example upon which further law should be based.

There you go injecting reality into a conversation again @EdJames!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Sanguine

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There you go injecting reality into a conversation again @EdJames!

He's that kind of guy. 

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It's no more "impossible to defend" than with any other TRO based on a credible accusation of danger to another.   The State's job is to vet the credibility of an accusation before imposing the remedy of a TRO.   

That's a lie.  I'm shocked.  I see @EdJames has proven why you are FOS (again) so Ill just leave this here.  And, I will also note you didn't give me a straight answer to my simple question, you had to hang predicate clauses all over it.  That's OK I didn't expect you to, because you never give a straight answer that might make you look foolish.

Be it noted:  @Jazzhead is OK with using the court system to drive people into bankruptcy in order to defeat them.  A lawyer once told me this is ethical, and it's good to hear that confirmed.  Bravo!
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Offline verga

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@austingirl And @Smokin Joe have it spot on: THEY HAD THE WRONG GUY, and now he has the bear the burden of proof ands costs of getting a lawyer, taking time off of work, the damage done to his reputation,...... because the government made an error. Screw that $H!T.
In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
�More than any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness. The other, to total extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly.�-Woody Allen
If God invented marathons to keep people from doing anything more stupid, the triathlon must have taken him completely by surprise.

Offline verga

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And that is why I've chosen to protect myself and my wife with a membership in USCCA.  They give me the resources to protect against unlawful seizures in these unconstitutional red flag law issues as well as if (God forbid) I actually have to use my weapon in self defense.
My wife and I have US Law Shield
In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
�More than any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness. The other, to total extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly.�-Woody Allen
If God invented marathons to keep people from doing anything more stupid, the triathlon must have taken him completely by surprise.

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@austingirl And @Smokin Joe have it spot on: THEY HAD THE WRONG GUY, and now he has the bear the burden of proof ands costs of getting a lawyer, taking time off of work, the damage done to his reputation,...... because the government made an error. Screw that $H!T.

 :yowsa:  pointing-up
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

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:yowsa:  pointing-up

And You Know Who thinks that's swell, because this is an anomaly. **nononono*

Other peoples money (like clients) is never a problem.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Offline verga

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And You Know Who thinks that's swell, because this is an anomaly. **nononono*

Other peoples money (like clients) is never a problem.
@Cyber Liberty We agree on 85-90% but you are dead wrong. It is an anomaly now for two reasons:
1) It's not a federal law (YET)
2) The libtards have not figured out how to use them to wreak havoc (YET).
ONce they do all bets are off. They will make SWATTING look a summer vacation.
The only possible remedy I can see is if false reporting results in fines, imprisonment, and a cash penalty paid to falsely accused victims.
At which the laws will become useless.
In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
�More than any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness. The other, to total extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly.�-Woody Allen
If God invented marathons to keep people from doing anything more stupid, the triathlon must have taken him completely by surprise.

Online Cyber Liberty

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@Cyber Liberty We agree on 85-90% but you are dead wrong. It is an anomaly now for two reasons:
1) It's not a federal law (YET)
2) The libtards have not figured out how to use them to wreak havoc (YET).
ONce they do all bets are off. They will make SWATTING look a summer vacation.
The only possible remedy I can see is if false reporting results in fines, imprisonment, and a cash penalty paid to falsely accused victims.
At which the laws will become useless.

We still agree.  I am not the one who called it an anomaly.  I think it's revolting, and today's anomaly is tomorrow's widespread rape of our rights.

@verga
« Last Edit: August 22, 2019, 01:46:42 am by Cyber Liberty »
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Offline verga

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We still agree.  I am not the one who called it an anomaly.  I think it's revolting, and today's anomaly is tomorrow's widespread rape of our rights.

@verga
My apologies, I went back and reread what you wrote, it was the dipsticks.
In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
�More than any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness. The other, to total extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly.�-Woody Allen
If God invented marathons to keep people from doing anything more stupid, the triathlon must have taken him completely by surprise.

Online Cyber Liberty

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My apologies, I went back and reread what you wrote, it was the dipsticks.

 :beer: :beer:
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Offline Sanguine

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My apologies, I went back and reread what you wrote, it was the dipsticks.

I guess we need dipsticks.  They tell us how deep it is.