THE DISASTROUS ECONOMICS OF TRYING TO POWER AN ELECTRICAL GRID WITH 100% INTERMITTENT RENEWABLES

[Hoodat]

I spoke to a geologist from Canada a few years ago.  He works in the oil industry up there.  I said I didn't believe that a bunch of ferns and trees failed to decompose, and were smashed into oil, all around the world, and pushed under sea and under thousands of feet of rock formations.  Where is this happening today!!! 

He agreed with me completely.

It was explained to me by a college professor that plants decomposed into coal while animals decomposed into oil.  How nice it is that all the plants went to Appalachia to die while all the dinosaurs headed to Texas.

[Hoodat]

sigh...

USING MICROFOSSILS
IN PETROLEUM EXPLORATION
https://ucmp.berkeley.edu/fosrec/ONeill.html

Using microfossils as a tool for decipher underground rock formations where oil may exist in no way indicates where that oil came from.  Simple chemical entropy bonds both carbon and hydrogen with oxygen which is the most prevalent element in living tissue.  Somehow, we are to believe that the bonds with oxygen were broken and all the oxygen was somehow driven out.  Sorry, not buying it.

[thackney]

Using microfossils as a tool for decipher underground rock formations where oil may exist in no way indicates where that oil came from.  Simple chemical entropy bonds both carbon and hydrogen with oxygen which is the most prevalent element in living tissue.  Somehow, we are to believe that the bonds with oxygen were broken and all the oxygen was somehow driven out.  Sorry, not buying it.

Oxygen is far from the most prevalent element. 

Chemical composition of phytoplankton and Particulate
Organic Matter in the Ría de Vigo (NW Spain)
http://scimar.icm.csic.es/scimar/pdf/62/sm62n3257.pdf
See Chemical composition, page 261

[Hoodat]

Oxygen is far from the most prevalent element. 

Chemical composition of phytoplankton and Particulate
Organic Matter in the Ría de Vigo (NW Spain)
http://scimar.icm.csic.es/scimar/pdf/62/sm62n3257.pdf
See Chemical composition, page 261

The figures on p. 262 show 0.75 units of oxygen by mass to every 1 unit of carbon.  Where did that oxygen go?

[bigheadfred]

I spoke to a geologist from Canada a few years ago.  He works in the oil industry up there.  I said I didn't believe that a bunch of ferns and trees failed to decompose, and were smashed into oil, all around the world, and pushed under sea and under thousands of feet of rock formations.  Where is this happening today!!! 

He agreed with me completely.

Incidentally, oil companies have leaks in their steel tanks all the time.  How is it that fossil fuel is so perfectly preserved, even under pressure!  And it doesn't all leak out like our gas tanks have a tendency to do?

And it doesn't all leak out like our gas tanks have a tendency to do?

It does and has. The Le Brea tar pits. In history surface deposits of bitumen provided people with the means to seal ships and many other useful things.

The Archaeology and History of Bitumen

 https://www.thoughtco.com/bitumen-history-of-black-goo-170085

[Smokin Joe]

sigh...

USING MICROFOSSILS
IN PETROLEUM EXPLORATION
https://ucmp.berkeley.edu/fosrec/ONeill.html

Yep, the steady rain of dead things, especially plankton, foraminifera, radiolarians, diatoms, and other dead critters large and small, along with plants and poop (everything in that water poops, if it is an animal) makes those sediments organic rich, especially if there isn't a large influx of larger sediment from rivers. The environment can be anywhere from a coastal marsh to a swamp (although large plant accumulations tend to make coal, not so much oil), to an abyssal plain (deep ocean), and in extensive lakes as well (the Green River Oil Shale is lacustrine in origin).

[Joe Wooten]

[IsailedawayfromFR]

Yep, the steady rain of dead things, especially plankton, foraminifera, radiolarians, diatoms, and other dead critters large and small, along with plants and poop (everything in that water poops, if it is an animal) makes those sediments organic rich, especially if there isn't a large influx of larger sediment from rivers. The environment can be anywhere from a coastal marsh to a swamp (although large plant accumulations tend to make coal, not so much oil), to an abyssal plain (deep ocean), and in extensive lakes as well (the Green River Oil Shale is lacustrine in origin).

What geologists understand and most of the rest of us have difficulty with is the enormity of time that passes to make changes.  Millions of years, hundreds of millions of years, things change, and change a lot.  Continents drift around the globe, mountains are created then destroyed, weather patterns completely change then go back again, atmosphere metamorphs, steady drip of water or wind over time transform.

These are significant but can take a long, long time.  Same with petroleum.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

Interesting slide.  Demonstrates that the most 'unnatural' energy type to construct is solar, followed by wind, the two the enviro nuts promote as the 'healthiest to nature'.  I suggest concrete is the most natural material, which means nuclear and hydro are the most 'natural'.  I wonder how petroleum would fare there?

[Smokin Joe]

What geologists understand and most of the rest of us have difficulty with is the enormity of time that passes to make changes.  Millions of years, hundreds of millions of years, things change, and change a lot.  Continents drift around the globe, mountains are created then destroyed, weather patterns completely change then go back again, atmosphere metamorphs, steady drip of water or wind over time transform.

These are significant but can take a long, long time.  Same with petroleum.

Yep. A million years is 12,500  eighty-year lifespans. Most people don't know a lifespan's worth of history, and have to be goaded to recall how things were a couple of decades ago. Yet the age of the most common source rocks for petroleum is between 65 and 220 million years (Cretaceous to Mississippian), and some are older, by over twice that.

It provides a different perspective on all the "Earth is Dying" stuff, especially considering few would recognize the megafauna of North America from 40 million years ago, now extinct, for the most part. Life finds a way, the Earth goes on. Humans get to choose whether or not they survive, and if they choose wisely, they might (no guarantees, one cosmic extinction level event and it's over--unless we learn to live off planet).

[thackney]

The figures on p. 262 show 0.75 units of oxygen by mass to every 1 unit of carbon.  Where did that oxygen go?

Mostly it becomes water and CO2, which is typically trapped with the oil.  But don't measure by mass, just number of atoms forming different molecules.  Two hydrogen have far less mass than oxygen but still form the most stable bond.  With the heat and pressure, the long chain hydrocarbon molecules oxides, until no free oxygen is left.

[thackney]

Note: Oil fields have a LOT of water down in the same reservoir.  Production companies go to a lot of effort to minimize the produced water, water brought up the well with oil.

In spite of those efforts, typically oil field produces a lot more water than oil over the commercial life of the play.

This water is contaminated salt water and is typically sent down a disposal well.  Often the end of a field is when handling the water exceeds the profit of the oil.

For example, in the relatively new shale fields:

https://www.oilandgas360.com/water-handling-in-oilfield-operations/

[Bigun]

Note: Oil fields have a LOT of water down in the same reservoir.  Production companies go to a lot of effort to minimize the produced water, water brought up the well with oil.

In spite of those efforts, typically oil field produces a lot more water than oil over the commercial life of the play.

This water is contaminated salt water and is typically sent down a disposal well.  Often the end of a field is when handling the water exceeds the profit of the oil.

For example, in the relatively new shale fields:

https://www.oilandgas360.com/water-handling-in-oilfield-operations/

And woe be unto the water flooder who does not pay close attention to the nature of the water already in place.

[Joe Wooten]

Interesting slide.  Demonstrates that the most 'unnatural' energy type to construct is solar, followed by wind, the two the enviro nuts promote as the 'healthiest to nature'.  I suggest concrete is the most natural material, which means nuclear and hydro are the most 'natural'.  I wonder how petroleum would fare there?

Probably even better than the nukes. Not too much concrete in a gas fired combined cycle as compared to a nuclear plant. As far as oil goes, no concrete in cars but the highways use a lot.

[Hoodat]

Mostly it becomes water and CO2, which is typically trapped with the oil.  But don't measure by mass, just number of atoms forming different molecules.  Two hydrogen have far less mass than oxygen but still form the most stable bond.  With the heat and pressure, the long chain hydrocarbon molecules oxides, until no free oxygen is left.

@thackney

Far more CO₂ than water.  Here's the stoichiometry.  It maximizes HC output and assumes a C-H hydrocarbon ratio of 4:9, the same as 3-methyl heptane (or octane)

From p. 262:  C =  106, H = 177.1, O = 59

Output:  C-H  →  [C = 77.3, H = 173.9], CO₂ = 28.7, H₂O = 3.2  - (a ratio of 3 moles CO₂ per one mole C₈H₁₈)

This is definitely doable with the algae composition provided.  But the next question is where did all the CO₂ go?  Wouldn't one expect all that CO2 would end up at the same place as CH₄?

We are in a gas-poor field, yet we bring up more than enough to run our generators and push the remainder into the pipeline.  If it was CO₂-rich, the generators wouldn't run.

And finally, if all this algae and phytoplankton piled up on the ocean floor, then why are there no such deposits existing today?  Think of the Gulf floor now.  How is it possible that hundreds or thousands of feet of phytoplankton was able to pile up on the ocean floor, and then was covered with sandstone formations without releasing any of its carbon content (or oxygen content for that matter since it was needed to bind the carbon in place).  And eventually, enough rock was built on top of the organic matter to 'cook' it into oil, releasing all its oxygen in the form of CO₂, and then somehow the CO₂ was able to escape through the rock layer leaving methane trapped behind.  And this only happened in select parts of the world.

Sorry, I just find that hard to swallow.  I find it much more likely that the earth was bombarded by meteors and comets that were hydrocarbon rich.

[Smokin Joe]

@thackney

Far more CO₂ than water.  Here's the stoichiometry.  It maximizes HC output and assumes a C-H hydrocarbon ratio of 4:9, the same as 3-methyl heptane (or octane)

From p. 262:  C =  106, H = 177.1, O = 59

Output:  C-H  →  [C = 77.3, H = 173.9], CO₂ = 28.7, H₂O = 3.2  - (a ratio of 3 moles CO₂ per one mole C₈H₁₈)

This is definitely doable with the algae composition provided.  But the next question is where did all the CO₂ go?  Wouldn't one expect all that CO2 would end up at the same place as CH₄?

We are in a gas-poor field, yet we bring up more than enough to run our generators and push the remainder into the pipeline.  If it was CO₂-rich, the generators wouldn't run.

And finally, if all this algae and phytoplankton piled up on the ocean floor, then why are there no such deposits existing today?  Think of the Gulf floor now.  How is it possible that hundreds or thousands of feet of phytoplankton was able to pile up on the ocean floor, and then was covered with sandstone formations without releasing any of its carbon content (or oxygen content for that matter since it was needed to bind the carbon in place).  And eventually, enough rock was built on top of the organic matter to 'cook' it into oil, releasing all its oxygen in the form of CO₂, and then somehow the CO₂ was able to escape through the rock layer leaving methane trapped behind.  And this only happened in select parts of the world.

Sorry, I just find that hard to swallow.  I find it much more likely that the earth was bombarded by meteors and comets that were hydrocarbon rich.

Rather than paraphrase or copy this, I thought I'd just provide the link. https://www.britannica.com/science/petroleum/Origin-of-hydrocarbons

Considering that much of the water present on the planet may have come from bombardment by cometary ice, I wouldn't rule out some methane rich bolides, either. That might give a better explanation of something like the Tunguska event as well.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

I get your point on hydrocarbons, but I don't buy in to the 'oil came from dinosaurs' mantra.

Looks like in addition to eradicating cows to stop methane emanating from cow farts, we need to cut down our trees as they are emitting methane.

Methane emissions from trees
Tree trunks act as methane source in upland forests

A new study is one of the first in the world to show that tree trunks in upland forests actually emit methane rather than store it, representing a new, previously unaccounted source of this powerful greenhouse gas.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/03/170330190304.htm