Author Topic: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership  (Read 14155 times)

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Offline EdJames

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #75 on: August 14, 2019, 08:45:29 pm »
Words mean things, and because English is a "living language," the precise meaning of the individual words have changed over time.  One must bone up on the text of the Federalist Papers to understand the full context of the words in the Bill of Rights.  Basically, it's "Because we need a well-supplied militia (Self-supplied at that), the individual RKBA must not be abridged," not what the brilliant lawyers say it means about it being some sort of vague communal right.

Give that man a Nat Sherman cigar!!

 :bullie smokin:

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #76 on: August 14, 2019, 08:46:50 pm »
The same manufactured attempt to stampede the people we've heard before, through the use of copious amounts of bullcrap.

YEP. a regulation butt-ton of bullcrap, tamped down and full to the brim.

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #77 on: August 14, 2019, 08:50:04 pm »
Give that man a Nat Sherman cigar!!

 :bullie smokin:

Thanks!  I'm on a roll today!  I was afraid I might have burned off all the fuel with the Federal/National government thing...
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Offline roamer_1

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #78 on: August 14, 2019, 08:50:56 pm »
I forgot.  "Hearing Protection."  The kind that's actually required of hunters in what little hunting is allowed now in England.

Why the heck do I need to wear earmuffs, eh?

*Note** That 'eh' is not because I am hard of hearing, but rather because I am too close to Canada.
POUTINE!!!

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #79 on: August 14, 2019, 08:51:09 pm »
YEP. a regulation butt-ton of bullcrap, tamped down and full to the brim.

A Long Tonne at that.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #80 on: August 14, 2019, 08:53:42 pm »
Why the heck do I need to wear earmuffs, eh?

*Note** That 'eh' is not because I am hard of hearing, but rather because I am too close to Canada.
POUTINE!!!

LOL!  I LOVE Poutine!  "Hearing Protection" is what they call "Suppressor" in the name of the Bill that Turtle failed to get through.  Your ear-muffs, but mounted on the muzzle of your rifle....
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #81 on: August 14, 2019, 09:08:12 pm »
LOL!  I LOVE Poutine!  "Hearing Protection" is what they call "Suppressor" in the name of the Bill that Turtle failed to get through.  Your ear-muffs, but mounted on the muzzle of your rifle....

I think its a plot to make us buy Pringles and tennis balls.

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #82 on: August 14, 2019, 09:17:15 pm »
I think its a plot to make us buy Pringles and tennis balls.

Say, that's good stock for a spud-gun!
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Offline skeeter

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #83 on: August 14, 2019, 09:45:47 pm »
Because when it was drafted, the Second Amendment only applied to the federal government, so each individual state would have been free to determine the conditions on which individuals within the state could bear arms.

Article VI Supremacy Clause says that’s not so.

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #84 on: August 14, 2019, 09:54:24 pm »
Say, that's good stock for a spud-gun!

Small potatoes (HA! did you see what I did there? I crack myself up!).
It's nearly September.
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Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #85 on: August 15, 2019, 12:22:31 am »
Looks like some are fighting to include a literacy test for the purchase of a gun.  They have a pretty good shot at winning this one. 

 

:thumbsup: 


« Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 12:59:21 am by Right_in_Virginia »

Online Smokin Joe

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #86 on: August 15, 2019, 12:49:44 am »
Thanks for your leadership on this issue, Mr. President.   :patriot:

Don't waver in the face of the gun extremists.
Oh, he isn't wavering--HE'S SIDING WITH THEM.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
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Offline sneakypete

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #87 on: August 15, 2019, 01:16:09 am »
You forgot suppressors. We need suppressors.

@roamer_1

Several decades too late for me,but young people could surely benefit from owning suppressors.

Think of a bill legalizing them without permits as a "public service bill".
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #88 on: August 15, 2019, 01:19:21 am »
@roamer_1

Several decades too late for me,but young people could surely benefit from owning suppressors.

Think of a bill legalizing them without permits as a "public service bill".

Dittos for me.  I can't hear diddly squat.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #89 on: August 15, 2019, 10:26:19 am »
Looks like some are fighting to include a literacy test for the purchase of a gun.  They have a pretty good shot at winning this one. 

 

Why is that @Right_in_Virginia ?? What has literacy to do with a right to defend oneself?
I know hillbillies that can't read a lick, but could shoot a fly off your nose without even thinking about it.

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #90 on: August 15, 2019, 10:28:06 am »
Several decades too late for me,but young people could surely benefit from owning suppressors.

Think of a bill legalizing them without permits as a "public service bill".

Yeah, way too late for me too... I never even wore earmuffs till in my 40's when I started realizing loss.

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #91 on: August 15, 2019, 12:27:25 pm »
Why is that @Right_in_Virginia ?? What has literacy to do with a right to defend oneself?

Oh, good grief @roamer_1  You missed that this was tongue-in-cheekt?!?  Hmm, maybe it's true. 

Looks like some are fighting to include a literacy test for the purchase of a gun.  They have a pretty good shot at winning this one. 


« Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 12:32:19 pm by Right_in_Virginia »

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #92 on: August 15, 2019, 12:32:10 pm »
Oh, good grief @roamer_1  You missed the insult?!?  Hmm, maybe it's true.

Yep. I guess so... Still missed it. Care to elaborate @Right_in_Virginia ?

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #93 on: August 15, 2019, 12:32:53 pm »
Yep. I guess so... Still missed it. Care to elaborate @Right_in_Virginia ?

I'd rather watch paint dry -- it's a better use of my time.



Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #94 on: August 15, 2019, 12:42:44 pm »
I thought the following, from the Legal Information Institute at the Cornell Law School (one of the best sites around for finding good information on the law), was interesting enough to share:

Quote
The Second Amendment of the United States Constitution reads: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." Such language has created considerable debate regarding the Amendment's intended scope. On the one hand, some believe that the Amendment's phrase "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms" creates an individual constitutional right for citizens of the United States. Under this "individual right theory," the United States Constitution restricts legislative bodies from prohibiting firearm possession, or at the very least, the Amendment renders prohibitory and restrictive regulation presumptively unconstitutional. On the other hand, some scholars point to the prefatory language "a well regulated Militia" to argue that the Framers intended only to restrict Congress from legislating away a state's right to self-defense. Scholars have come to call this theory "the collective rights theory." A collective rights theory of the Second Amendment asserts that citizens do not have an individual right to possess guns and that local, state, and federal legislative bodies therefore possess the authority to regulate firearms without implicating a constitutional right.

In 1939 the U.S. Supreme Court considered the matter in United States v. Miller. 307 U.S. 174. The Court adopted a collective rights approach in this case, determining that Congress could regulate a sawed-off shotgun that had moved in interstate commerce under the National Firearms Act of 1934 because the evidence did not suggest that the shotgun "has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated milita . . . ." The Court then explained that the Framers included the Second Amendment to ensure the effectiveness of the military.

This precedent stood for nearly 70 years when in 2008 the U.S. Supreme Court revisited the issue in the case of District of Columbia v. Heller (07-290). The plaintiff in Heller challenged the constitutionality of the Washington D.C. handgun ban, a statute that had stood for 32 years. Many considered the statute the most stringent in the nation. In a 5-4 decision, the Court, meticulously detailing the history and tradition of the Second Amendment at the time of the Constitutional Convention, proclaimed that the Second Amendment established an individual right for U.S. citizens to possess firearms and struck down the D.C. handgun ban as violative of that right. The majority carved out Miller as an exception to the general rule that Americans may possess firearms, claiming that law-abiding citizens cannot use sawed-off shotguns for any law-abiding purpose. Similarly, the Court in its dicta found regulations of similar weaponry that cannot be used for law-abiding purposes as laws that would not implicate the Second Amendment. Further, the Court suggested that the United States Constitution would not disallow regulations prohibiting criminals and the mentally ill from firearm possession.



Thus, the Supreme Court has revitalized the Second Amendment. The Court continued to strengthen the Second Amendment through the 2010 decision in McDonald v. City of Chicago (08-1521). The plaintiff in McDonald challenged the constitutionally of the Chicago handgun ban, which prohibited handgun possession by almost all private citizens. In a 5-4 decisions, the Court, citing the intentions of the framers and ratifiers of the Fourteenth Amendment, held that the Second Amendment applies to the states through the incorporation doctrine. However, the Court did not have a majority on which clause of the Fourteenth Amendment incorporates the fundamental right to keep and bear arms for the purpose of self-defense. While Justice Alito and his supporters looked to the Due Process Clause, Justice Thomas in his concurrence stated that the Privileges and Immunities Clause should justify incorporation.


This reinforces,  I think,  the point I have been trying to make that the "individual rights" theory of the 2A is one of two competing theories that have each found favor with the SCOTUS at different times.   The other view, the collective rights theory,  is supported by the text and refuted by the later Heller Court's ruling.   But a SCOTUS ruling can be overturned.   The right therefore hangs by the thread of a 5-4 SCOTUS majority.    And as vociferously as those on the right have been demanding that the SCOTUS overturn Roe v. Wade, many on the left demand the overturn of Heller in favor of the collective rights theory.   A minor change in the composition of the Court is all that needs to happen for that view to potentially prevail, as it did in 1939.   

So this election isn't about principles, it's about politics.   Whatever your principles are,  if you do not support GOP candidates you are enabling the demise of Heller.    So @Right_in_Virginia  is quite correct -  it may take a constitutional amendment to abolish the 2A,  but only a Dem victory in 2020 to abolish the 2A's "revitalization" by Heller.   
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Offline roamer_1

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #95 on: August 15, 2019, 12:59:33 pm »
So this election isn't about principles, it's about politics.   Whatever your principles are,  if you do not support GOP candidates you are enabling the demise of Heller.    So @Right_in_Virginia  is quite correct -  it may take a constitutional amendment to abolish the 2A,  but only a Dem victory in 2020 to abolish the 2A's "revitalization" by Heller.

What powdered wigs in paneled halls think about anything doesn't make it true... In fact, most often, far from it.

And you have no argument whatsoever with regard to the GOP. If the GOP is caving on universal registration, that action makes Heller incidental by comparison.


Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #96 on: August 15, 2019, 01:05:40 pm »
So this election isn't about principles, it's about politics.   Whatever your principles are,  if you do not support GOP candidates you are enabling the demise of Heller.    So @Right_in_Virginia  is quite correct -  it may take a constitutional amendment to abolish the 2A,  but only a Dem victory in 2020 to abolish the 2A's "revitalization" by Heller.

And yet, so many pro-gun conservatives are using the worn out "we'll just stay home on election day" strategy.  It's almost as though they do not "get" how serious this election will be, especially for gun rights.

Good research, BTW @Jazzhead

Offline thackney

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #97 on: August 15, 2019, 01:10:20 pm »
And yet, so many pro-gun conservatives are using the worn out "we'll just stay home on election day" strategy.  It's almost as though they do not "get" how serious this election will be, especially for gun rights.

Good research, BTW @Jazzhead

Too many politicians don't understand how important gun rights are to the general public.  Without them, we are doomed so it won't matter at that point who is elected.
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Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #98 on: August 15, 2019, 01:10:45 pm »
Oh, he isn't wavering--HE'S SIDING WITH THEM. 

You're listening to everyone except the President @Smokin Joe

Quote
Donald J. Trump Retweeted

Laura Ingraham‏
Verified account  @IngrahamAngle

"There is no evidence that we are in the midst of an epidemic of mass shootings," @jamesalanfox, the leading researcher on the topic, tells @nickgillespie. Podcast. https://reason.com/podcast/james-alan-fox-there-is-no-evidence-of-an-epidemic-of-mass-shootings/ … via @reason

Quote

James Alan Fox: There Is No Evidence of an 'Epidemic of Mass Shootings'
The nation's leading scholar of mass shootings explains how media coverage of horrific events such as El Paso and Dayton stoke unwarranted fear and anxiety.


https://twitter.com/IngrahamAngle/status/1161868292291616768
https://reason.com/podcast/james-alan-fox-there-is-no-evidence-of-an-epidemic-of-mass-shootings/

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Trump Backs 'Red Flag' Laws That Could Impact Veteran Gun Ownership
« Reply #99 on: August 15, 2019, 01:13:06 pm »
Too many politicians don't understand how important gun rights are to the general public.  Without them, we are doomed so it won't matter at that point who is elected.

So vote your best interest.  Or not.  I'm really starting not to care.   :shrug: