Author Topic: Boeing’s 737 Max Software Outsourced to $9-an-Hour Engineers  (Read 3135 times)

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Online Elderberry

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Yahoo Finance by Peter Robison 6/29/2019

 It remains the mystery at the heart of Boeing Co.’s 737 Max crisis: how a company renowned for meticulous design made seemingly basic software mistakes leading to a pair of deadly crashes. Longtime Boeing engineers say the effort was complicated by a push to outsource work to lower-paid contractors.

The Max software -- plagued by issues that could keep the planes grounded months longer after U.S. regulators this week revealed a new flaw -- was developed at a time Boeing was laying off experienced engineers and pressing suppliers to cut costs.

Increasingly, the iconic American planemaker and its subcontractors have relied on temporary workers making as little as $9 an hour to develop and test software, often from countries lacking a deep background in aerospace -- notably India.

In offices across from Seattle’s Boeing Field, recent college graduates employed by the Indian software developer HCL Technologies Ltd. occupied several rows of desks, said Mark Rabin, a former Boeing software engineer who worked in a flight-test group that supported the Max.

The coders from HCL were typically designing to specifications set by Boeing. Still, “it was controversial because it was far less efficient than Boeing engineers just writing the code,” Rabin said. Frequently, he recalled, “it took many rounds going back and forth because the code was not done correctly.”

More: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/boeings-737-max-software-outsourced-204657048.html

Offline Fishrrman

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Re: Boeing’s 737 Max Software Outsourced to $9-an-Hour Engineers
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2019, 10:34:05 pm »
I've read that this story should be taken with a grain of salt...

Offline Joe Wooten

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Re: Boeing’s 737 Max Software Outsourced to $9-an-Hour Engineers
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2019, 11:21:21 pm »
I've read that this story should be taken with a grain of salt...

I've seen quotes from Boeing engineers that were laid off because the bean counters that run the company now said they were too expensive. Boeing is the latest in a very long line of big American corporations that have done this.

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Re: Boeing’s 737 Max Software Outsourced to $9-an-Hour Engineers
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2019, 12:15:21 am »
I've seen quotes from Boeing engineers that were laid off because the bean counters that run the company now said they were too expensive. Boeing is the latest in a very long line of big American corporations that have done this.

My company was shipping all the R&D to China. It's why I got to retire early. It's madness.
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Online Elderberry

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Re: Boeing’s 737 Max Software Outsourced to $9-an-Hour Engineers
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2019, 12:22:06 am »
Its been going on for quite a while.

Quote
https://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/2016/mar/30/citylights-engineers-axed-train-replacements/#

Qualcomm engineers get axed, then train foreign replacements

H-1B visa program steals Americans’ jobs

By Don Bauder, March 30, 2016

“Knowledge transfer.” It’s a scholarly sounding name for a vile practice that is stealing jobs from American engineers and forcing those soon-to-be-laid-off tech employees to train their foreign replacements. If American workers refuse to teach the ropes to their non–United States replacements, they will not get severance packages and bonuses. And some must sign a gag order promising not to tell anyone about this corporate rip-off.

However, a sufficient number of Americans fired from science, technology, engineering, and mathematics jobs have defied their former employers and told their stories. Now, the issue is front and center in this year’s presidential race.

The foreign technical workers get visas to come to the United States through the H-1B program, which allows non-American citizens (often from India) to work up to six years in the United States. The San Diego Reader has been following H-1B abuses for five years. Another method for foreigners to swipe American jobs is for students with an F-1 visa to take Optional Practical Training, which permits them to work for a year with an American company.

The companies currently abusing the H-1B program most malodorously include Disney, Southern California Edison, Cargill, and Toys R Us. The blue chips that have been using H-1Bs for a long time include IBM, Microsoft, and San Diego’s Qualcomm.

Offline InHeavenThereIsNoBeer

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Re: Boeing’s 737 Max Software Outsourced to $9-an-Hour Engineers
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2019, 12:29:33 am »
In a city with a $16/hr minimum wage.
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Re: Boeing’s 737 Max Software Outsourced to $9-an-Hour Engineers
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2019, 01:14:44 am »
I've read that this story should be taken with a grain of salt...
Of course. There is no such thing as a $9 per hour engineer in America. Maybe in Mexico or Bangladesh, but not in America. You may be able to find temp workers who 'call themselves engineers' for that much, but they will certainly not be certified by any accredited organization.
You cannot "COEXIST" with people who want to kill you.
If they kill their own with no conscience, there is nothing to stop them from killing you.
Rational fear and anger at vicious murderous Islamic terrorists is the same as irrational antisemitism, according to the Leftists.

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Re: Boeing’s 737 Max Software Outsourced to $9-an-Hour Engineers
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2019, 01:17:30 am »
My company was shipping all the R&D to China. It's why I got to retire early. It's madness.
My company sent everything to India. I warned them that they would lose all proprietary control over their software. And this will possibly create a new international competitor. They didn't care. The short term quarterly savings was worth the long term ramifications to them.
You cannot "COEXIST" with people who want to kill you.
If they kill their own with no conscience, there is nothing to stop them from killing you.
Rational fear and anger at vicious murderous Islamic terrorists is the same as irrational antisemitism, according to the Leftists.

Offline InHeavenThereIsNoBeer

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Re: Boeing’s 737 Max Software Outsourced to $9-an-Hour Engineers
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2019, 01:32:45 am »
My company sent everything to India. I warned them that they would lose all proprietary control over their software. And this will possibly create a new international competitor. They didn't care. The short term quarterly savings was worth the long term ramifications to them.

I spent most of my career doing professional services for a software company, working with hundreds of companies.  I also spent a couple weeks teaching partners in India.  There are (were) talented professionals in India that could be picked up for $15-20/hr.  I saw one company do this, quite successfully.  Every other company I encountered that was outsourcing went with the cheapest they could find, and they paid for what they got.
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Offline XenaLee

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Re: Boeing’s 737 Max Software Outsourced to $9-an-Hour Engineers
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2019, 01:57:32 am »
I've seen quotes from Boeing engineers that were laid off because the bean counters that run the company now said they were too expensive. Boeing is the latest in a very long line of big American corporations that have done this.

Just wondering how many of those bean counters happen to be anti-Capitalist Marxists.
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Boeing’s 737 Max Software Outsourced to $9-an-Hour Engineers
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2019, 01:59:05 am »
My company sent everything to India. I warned them that they would lose all proprietary control over their software. And this will possibly create a new international competitor. They didn't care. The short term quarterly savings was worth the long term ramifications to them.

My point exactly.  Moving all IP development to a country known for stripping IP as a cost of doing business is just plain stupid, and deserves whatever it has coming. 
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Re: Boeing’s 737 Max Software Outsourced to $9-an-Hour Engineers
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2019, 03:24:04 am »
My point exactly.  Moving all IP development to a country known for stripping IP as a cost of doing business is just plain stupid, and deserves whatever it has coming.
Yep. International NDAs and Non-Compete agreements have no weight in international courts. Sure, they get cheap labor fine, for a while. But they are giving away their product for it. I can see India, Pakistan, China, among others, Offering to do all software development, maintenance, and support, for $1 a year. Why not? They just want to get their hands on the software, whatever loss they take. The loss is only temporary anyway, almost like a purchase price, because the software(or a version of it) will soon belong to them anyway.
You cannot "COEXIST" with people who want to kill you.
If they kill their own with no conscience, there is nothing to stop them from killing you.
Rational fear and anger at vicious murderous Islamic terrorists is the same as irrational antisemitism, according to the Leftists.

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Re: Boeing’s 737 Max Software Outsourced to $9-an-Hour Engineers
« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2019, 03:38:30 am »
Just wondering how many of those bean counters happen to be anti-Capitalist Marxists.

Hard to say. The biggest problem with bean counters is they're focused on the Now! Now! Now! bottom line, and pass the buck when everything crumbles around them because of poor, or no, long term decision making.
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Online Hoodat

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Re: Boeing’s 737 Max Software Outsourced to $9-an-Hour Engineers
« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2019, 03:45:34 am »
My company was shipping all the R&D to China. It's why I got to retire early. It's madness.

Madness is right.  Such short-sighted thinking.  Snap decision to switch to outsourcing just so your numbers for the quarter will look good.  Never mind that you end up losing a ton of business in the years ahead.  My company is doing this now.
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Boeing’s 737 Max Software Outsourced to $9-an-Hour Engineers
« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2019, 03:56:50 am »
Madness is right.  Such short-sighted thinking.  Snap decision to switch to outsourcing just so your numbers for the quarter will look good.  Never mind that you end up losing a ton of business in the years ahead.  My company is doing this now.

I got lucky.  I saw it coming for years, so I was prepared when my time came to get the RIF.  We just decided to pack it in and retire to a "Castle" on the Colorado River, away from the City and Burbs.  I just never understood the fascination with China, but it was obvious it would not end well for me.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Online Hoodat

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Re: Boeing’s 737 Max Software Outsourced to $9-an-Hour Engineers
« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2019, 04:13:39 am »
Still got at least 15 years to retirement.  Keeping my head low in a job that can't be outsourced (yet).
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

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Re: Boeing’s 737 Max Software Outsourced to $9-an-Hour Engineers
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2019, 04:16:22 am »
Still got at least 15 years to retirement.  Keeping my head low in a job that can't be outsourced (yet).

Good luck!  My advice is to try and find a way to save every penny you can. 
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Re: Boeing’s 737 Max Software Outsourced to $9-an-Hour Engineers
« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2019, 04:22:36 am »
I got lucky.  I saw it coming for years, so I was prepared when my time came to get the RIF.  We just decided to pack it in and retire to a "Castle" on the Colorado River, away from the City and Burbs.  I just never understood the fascination with China, but it was obvious it would not end well for me.
I got very lucky too. My company was so desperate to shed higher-level expensive personnel that they began offering voluntary severance packages. The packages were unbelievable. 50K up front with almost 10K a year for every year you have worked for the company, health coverage perqs, continuing education benefits, job placement help, etc. It was ridiculous. Whoever came up with this plan probably took it himself. Anyway, I jumped on it because I could see the writing on the wall. My coworkers were aghast. Why would you do that?, they kept asking.

Got in touch with a coworker a little over a year later. Almost everyone I had known was RIFed, gone. More than that, right after I left, the company stopped offering voluntary severance because they justifiably said that it was too expensive. However, they did not stop the layoffs. They simply stopped offering severance because they said they couldn't afford it. I left at exactly the right time, in exactly the right way. He told me that whenever my old coworkers spoke of me they were pissed. They were pissed that I left with a very small golden parachute and they were all simply fired, with nothing. You gotta know when to hold um, know when to fold um, know when to walk away, and know when to run.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2019, 04:35:01 am by 240B »
You cannot "COEXIST" with people who want to kill you.
If they kill their own with no conscience, there is nothing to stop them from killing you.
Rational fear and anger at vicious murderous Islamic terrorists is the same as irrational antisemitism, according to the Leftists.

Offline sneakypete

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Re: Boeing’s 737 Max Software Outsourced to $9-an-Hour Engineers
« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2019, 12:50:36 pm »
My company sent everything to India. I warned them that they would lose all proprietary control over their software. And this will possibly create a new international competitor. They didn't care. The short term quarterly savings was worth the long term ramifications to them.

@240B

Why WOULD they care? "The Company" at that level is the Board,and all THEY are concerned about is the bottom line  TODAY because that is what their salaries,bonuses,and retirement package are based on. If they have a good year this year they really rake it in,and if the decisions they made this year cause the company to lose money next year,it's not their problem because they are covered by their severance package.

It's all about the Benjamins,and the company,the workers,and even the US aren't of any concern. It's all about  me,me,ME,DAMMIT!

It's how they are taught in school to operate.

I don't even pretend to be smart enough to have the answer to this,but something has to change while we still have a country with an elected government instead of an administrative board.
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Online Hoodat

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Re: Boeing’s 737 Max Software Outsourced to $9-an-Hour Engineers
« Reply #19 on: July 01, 2019, 01:31:47 pm »
They didn't care. The short term quarterly savings was worth the long term ramifications to them.

Thank you, Sarbanes-Oxley.  Don't hit your numbers for the quarter?  You can go to jail.  Forget what is best for the stockholder five years down the road.  All that matter are the quarterly reports.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


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-Ayn Rand-

Offline SirLinksALot

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Boeing's 737 Max software outsourced to $9-an-hour engineers
« Reply #20 on: July 19, 2019, 07:35:15 pm »
SOURCE: BLOOMBERG VIA MSN

URL: https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/boeings-737-max-software-outsourced-to-dollar9-an-hour-engineers/ar-AADzCXz

by Peter Robison



It remains the mystery at the heart of Boeing Co.’s 737 Max crisis: how a company renowned for meticulous design made seemingly basic software mistakes leading to a pair of deadly crashes. Longtime Boeing engineers say the effort was complicated by a push to outsource work to lower-paid contractors.

The Max software -- plagued by issues that could keep the planes grounded months longer after U.S. regulators this week revealed a new flaw -- was developed at a time Boeing was laying off experienced engineers and pressing suppliers to cut costs.

Increasingly, the iconic American planemaker and its subcontractors have relied on temporary workers making as little as $9 an hour to develop and test software, often from countries lacking a deep background in aerospace -- notably India.

In offices across from Seattle’s Boeing Field, recent college graduates employed by the Indian software developer HCL Technologies Ltd. occupied several rows of desks, said Mark Rabin, a former Boeing software engineer who worked in a flight-test group that supported the Max.

The coders from HCL were typically designing to specifications set by Boeing. Still, “it was controversial because it was far less efficient than Boeing engineers just writing the code,” Rabin said. Frequently, he recalled, “it took many rounds going back and forth because the code was not done correctly.”

(EXCERPT) CLICK ABOVE LINK FOR THE REST...

Offline sneakypete

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Re: Boeing's 737 Max software outsourced to $9-an-hour engineers
« Reply #21 on: July 19, 2019, 07:41:25 pm »
@SirLinksALot

Not to worry. Soon there will be no such critter as 3rd World $9 per hour engineers. They will all immigrate here for the 15 bucks a hour minimum wage,or just to live the high life on welfare.
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Offline truth_seeker

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Re: Boeing's 737 Max software outsourced to $9-an-hour engineers
« Reply #22 on: July 19, 2019, 08:21:46 pm »
In the early 70s I did a couple of projects, in the oil production business, under supervision of a pair of men with MS degrees, in Geology and Reservoir - seconday recovery.

The reservoir MS had recently completed his graduate degree, and gave me articles from recent professional journals.

I had limited programming training or experience, save a couple of classes, and some OJT.

We were doing remedial work on existing wells, which at the time we called "pressure washing"

Now they are called "Fracking."

My programs were supposed to evaluate the effectiveness of the remedial work, using measured pressures, flow rates, etc.

Then I left. But it turned out some mistakes iin the programs were overlooked since neither of the two, delved deeply into the programming, the equations, etc.

Iwas not a math, engineering or programming major.

Ironically at the time, I was also helping to debug business programs (complex math models), which was my field of training.


I learned later in my career, that engineers, programmers, accountants etc. need to have work cross checked.

I think Boeing is wrong, to use cheap foreigners for super important safety related work. 

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Offline Applewood

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Re: Boeing's 737 Max software outsourced to $9-an-hour engineers
« Reply #23 on: July 19, 2019, 08:26:26 pm »
@sneakypete

If these engineers from India came here, they would be demanding the pay American engineers get -- which would be far more than minimum wage.

This is why companies continue to outsource jobs overseas --  despite Trump's promises to bring those jobs back to the US.  No company wants to pay Americans the salaries they would expect if the jobs can be done in some hellhole country for a lot less 

Offline sneakypete

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Re: Boeing's 737 Max software outsourced to $9-an-hour engineers
« Reply #24 on: July 19, 2019, 08:40:24 pm »
@sneakypete

If these engineers from India came here, they would be demanding the pay American engineers get -- which would be far more than minimum wage.

 

@Applewood

Sure of that? What makes you think when nobody is taking minimum wage jobs at 15 bucks per hour,that the left doesn't raise the minimum wage to 50 bucks,or even 100 bucks per hour?

Don't kid yourself about how foreign economies are going to stay strong once the left bankrupts America,either. We will stop outsourcing and buying products from other nations.
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