Author Topic: Conservatives have conflated 'a heartbeat with a soul' in abortion restrictions, Democratic rep says  (Read 331 times)

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Online mystery-ak

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6/4/2019

Democratic Rep. Kim Schrier (Wash.) said Tuesday that conservatives mistakenly have conflated a heartbeat with personhood in passing "heartbeat" abortion bills aimed at restricting the procedure.

"I can tell you about a single heart cell, a myocardial cell, in a petri dish in a lab at the University of Washington that will beat," Schrier, who is also a doctor, told Hill.TV's Jamal Simmons and Buck Sexton on "Rising." "All this is evidence of electrical activity which happens in a myocardial cell."

"I think what the right has managed to do is somehow conflate a heartbeat with a soul or with personhood, and I believe that if people understood, that this is just what a myocardial cell does, that that number, 55 percent, would probably go up to 73 percent," she continued.

Schrier was referring to a recent USA Today/Ipsos poll, which found that 55 percent of respondents said they oppose fetal heartbeat laws, while 73 percent said they opposed all abortion facilities closing in their states.

"Anyone who is pro-choice would understand that that is just a gimmick."

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https://thehill.com/hilltv/rising/446862-democratic-rep-says-conservatives-have-conflated-a-heartbeat-with-a-soul-in

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Offline Sanguine

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Heart and soul have been "conflated" for as long as human history.
"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials." – George Mason, Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 1788

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Offline roamer_1

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Conception forms the soul. There can be no other truth.
Life begins at conception, not at the heartbeat.

Offline ABX

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Can Schrier point to any sort of scientific measurement or study when a 'soul' enters someone that makes them a unique individual?

If not, a heartbeat is likely the best measurement we have to when something is an individual life.

Online Jazzhead

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Can Schrier point to any sort of scientific measurement or study when a 'soul' enters someone that makes them a unique individual?

If not, a heartbeat is likely the best measurement we have to when something is an individual life.

No, viability is the best measurement.   If the fetus cannot biologically survive outside the womb,  it is not yet an individual life.   Its existence is not yet separate from the mother's.       
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Offline ABX

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No, viability is the best measurement.   If the fetus cannot biologically survive outside the womb,  it is not yet an individual life.   Its existence is not yet separate from the mother's.     

I disagree with that being a measurement of individual life with individual rights as many who are not 'viable' are alive, 'outside the womb' and they have rights. What about babies who are born non-viable and need incubators?  What about those with illness or the elderly who are not 'viable' without external processes or support?

Online Jazzhead

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I disagree with that being a measurement of individual life with individual rights as many who are not 'viable' are alive, 'outside the womb' and they have rights. What about babies who are born non-viable and need incubators?  What about those with illness or the elderly who are not 'viable' without external processes or support?

There's no perfect answer but the practical use of viability as the measure permits both the pro-life and pro-choice sides to be accommodated:   Before viability, it's the woman's choice.  After viability, the citizens of a state can choose to regulate or ban abortion.   

The recent stances of the pro-life and pro-choice sides have each veered into the ditch of extremism.   A heartbeat bill denies the woman's right,  while laws that permit third trimester abortion deny the reality that the fetus has progressed past the point of survival.   
"He was born poor, died rich, and never hurt anyone along the way"

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Offline roamer_1

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There's no perfect answer

Sure there is. Don't make a child in the first place, or bear the consequences otherwise.
What's good for the gander is good for the goose.

Online Jazzhead

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Sure there is. Don't make a child in the first place, or bear the consequences otherwise.
What's good for the gander is good for the goose.

Not in the real world.  Condoms break.  Birth control fails.  And partners run off leaving women pregnant and alone.   

There are no perfect answers in an imperfect world.  Only reasonable compromises that balance the rights of women and the interest of the state in protecting unborn life.   Placing the dividing point at viability is rational, reasonable, and permits both sides' interests to be recognized, respected and accommodated.

But in today's world it seems no one is willing to compromise, or even to respect the good faith of the other side.   So we tear at each others' throats,  and adopt extreme positions in reaction.    The abortion debate truly brings out the worst in all of us.   
"He was born poor, died rich, and never hurt anyone along the way"

   - Duke Ellington, upon hearing of the death of Louis Armstrong

"Not forever.  Just for now"

    - Jay Farrar

Offline Sanguine

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Not in the real world.  Condoms break.  Birth control fails.  And partners run off leaving women pregnant and alone.   

There are no perfect answers in an imperfect world.  Only reasonable compromises that balance the rights of women and the interest of the state in protecting unborn life.   Placing the dividing point at viability is rational, reasonable, and permits both sides' interests to be recognized, respected and accommodated.

But in today's world it seems no one is willing to compromise, or even to respect the good faith of the other side.   So we tear at each others' throats,  and adopt extreme positions in reaction.    The abortion debate truly brings out the worst in all of us.

Jazzhead, I hate to be the one to break this to you, but sex causes babies. 
"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials." – George Mason, Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 1788

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Online Jazzhead

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Jazzhead, I hate to be the one to break this to you, but sex causes babies.

Yes, and the vulgar term for sex is what we hurl at each other when we're most angry.   

The abortion debate disgusts me.    There is so much that can be done by folks of good will to ensure every child is a wanted, loved child.   Instead we wrap ourselves in self-righteousness and certitude.   Is all we can say to a woman in crisis is you should have kept your legs shut?     What happened to empathy?   Dashed on the shoals of extremism.   
"He was born poor, died rich, and never hurt anyone along the way"

   - Duke Ellington, upon hearing of the death of Louis Armstrong

"Not forever.  Just for now"

    - Jay Farrar

Offline roamer_1

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Not in the real world.  Condoms break.  Birth control fails.  And partners run off leaving women pregnant and alone.   

So What? You roll the dice, you take your chances.
Profit requires risk, and risk requires consequences.

Quote
There are no perfect answers in an imperfect world.  Only reasonable compromises that balance the rights of women and the interest of the state in protecting unborn life.   

Funny that you omit the right and expense of the male. I can't even count the men I know that are truly suffering the consequences of a misspent yoot. One of my employees had six child support payments garnered from his check from me, and lived in his car in my shop's parking lot for three of the five years he was with me. The remaining two years, I converted a shed for him to sleep in on-site.

A great kid who will never have a family, never own a house, never amount to nothing because he is forced to endure the consequences of his actions. And that will extend far, far past twenty years.

He's a piece of crap forever because of those consequences.
Why is he forced to accept those consequences and a woman is not?

A woman can opt out at the beginning and remain virgin until marriage. A woman can opt out after 9 months and give up the baby for adoption... Far easier than a man's consequences which will sap his fortune forever, no matter what he does.

Your argument is absurd in its inequity, even without the life of the child.

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Placing the dividing point at viability is rational, reasonable, and permits both sides' interests to be recognized, respected and accommodated.

Right. both sides being uncle nanny and the mother. There is still a child and a father involved. who have no right, and no say.

Quote
But in today's world it seems no one is willing to compromise, or even to respect the good faith of the other side.   So we tear at each others' throats,  and adopt extreme positions in reaction.    The abortion debate truly brings out the worst in all of us.

Because it is murder.
Because it is without equity.
Because it promotes promiscuity and bastard children at astronomical rates.

Offline Sanguine

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Yes, and the vulgar term for sex is what we hurl at each other when we're most angry.   

The abortion debate disgusts me.    There is so much that can be done by folks of good will to ensure every child is a wanted, loved child.   Instead we wrap ourselves in self-righteousness and certitude.   Is all we can say to a woman in crisis is you should have kept your legs shut?     What happened to empathy?   Dashed on the shoals of extremism.

By the same token, there is so much that folks of good will can do to ensure that unwanted children aren't conceived and then killed.  Good grief, if that doesn't epitomize a lack of empathy then nothing does.  Maybe you were being ironic?
"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials." – George Mason, Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 1788

“Do right and risk the consequences.”
– Sam Houston

Offline roamer_1

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Yes, and the vulgar term for sex is what we hurl at each other when we're most angry.   

The abortion debate disgusts me.    There is so much that can be done by folks of good will to ensure every child is a wanted, loved child.   Instead we wrap ourselves in self-righteousness and certitude.   Is all we can say to a woman in crisis is you should have kept your legs shut?     What happened to empathy?   Dashed on the shoals of extremism.

Empathy is a shotgun wedding.


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