Slavery, the Left and Our Constitution

[corbe]

Slavery, the Left and Our Constitution

Did our founders really disregard the promises of our Declaration of Independence?

May 31, 2019
 
Walter Williams
 
The favorite leftist tool for the attack on our nation's founding is that slavery was sanctioned. They argue that the founders disregarded the promises of our Declaration of Independence "that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." These very ignorant people, both in and out of academia, want us to believe that slavery is unusual, as historian Kenneth Stampp suggested in his book, "Peculiar Institution: Slavery in the Ante-Bellum South." But slavery is by no means peculiar, odd, unusual or unique to the U.S.

As University of Nebraska-Lincoln political science professor David P. Forsythe wrote in his book, "The Globalist," "The fact remained that at the beginning of the nineteenth century an estimated three-quarters of all people alive were trapped in bondage against their will either in some form of slavery or serfdom." Slavery was common among ancient peoples — Egyptians, Babylonians, Assyrians, Hittites, Greeks, Persians, Armenians and many others. Large numbers of Christians were enslaved during the Ottoman wars in Europe. White slaves were common in Europe from the Dark Ages to the Middle Ages. It was only during the 17th century that the Atlantic slave trade began with Europeans assisted by Arabs and Africans.

Slavery is one of the most horrible injustices. It posed such a moral dilemma at our 1787 Constitutional Convention that it threatened to scuttle the attempt to create a union between the 13 colonies. Let's look at some of the debate. George Washington, in a letter to Pennsylvania delegate Robert Morris, wrote, "There is not a man living who wishes more sincerely than I do, to see a plan adopted for the abolition of it." In a Constitutional Convention speech, James Madison said, "We have seen the mere distinction of color made in the most enlightened period of time, a ground of the most oppressive dominion ever exercised by man over man." In James Madison's records of the Convention he wrote, "(The Convention) thought it wrong to admit in the Constitution the idea that there could be property in men."

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https://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/273881/slavery-left-and-our-constitution-walter-williams

[goatprairie]

Slavery was a horrible evil. Two hundred years ago many nations practiced slavery. But there is only a tiny percent of the world's population who are today slaves.
The conceit of leftists is that slavery should never have happened.
Well, yes, horrible wars, mass slaughters, and a host of other indignities should never have happened.
But they did.
There were few countries that worked towards abolishing slavery. The U.S. was one of the few.
Which leads to the question: are American blacks better off being descended from slaves rather than remaining in Africa?
Why don't we ask Oprah Winfrey, Tiger Woods, Michael Jordan, and a slew of other black billionaires and multi-millionaires whether they wish their ancestors had remained in Africa.
American blacks are immeasurably better off in America than living in some sh*thole sub-Saharan country run by blacks.
Liberals, white and black, refuse to acknowledge that fact.
It's strange, but many times out of something evil, good can emerge.  The law of unintended consequences has left American blacks much wealthier than 99% of non-enslaved African blacks.
Who among the liberals will have the guts to acknowledge as much?
The only exception I've heard so far has been Muhammad Ali who said after a boxing match in Africa  "thank God my granddaddy got on that boat."

[corbe]

 

[Sanguine]

Slavery was a horrible evil. Two hundred years ago many nations practiced slavery. But there is only a tiny percent of the world's population who are today slaves.
The conceit of leftists is that slavery should never have happened.
Well, yes, horrible wars, mass slaughters, and a host of other indignities should never have happened.
But they did.
There were few countries that worked towards abolishing slavery. The U.S. was one of the few.
Which leads to the question: are American blacks better off being descended from slaves rather than remaining in Africa?
Why don't we ask Oprah Winfrey, Tiger Woods, Michael Jordan, and a slew of other black billionaires and multi-millionaires whether they wish their ancestors had remained in Africa.
American blacks are immeasurably better off in America than living in some sh*thole sub-Saharan country run by blacks.
Liberals, white and black, refuse to acknowledge that fact.
It's strange, but many times out of something evil, good can emerge.  The law of unintended consequences has left American blacks much wealthier than 99% of non-enslaved African blacks.
Who among the liberals will have the guts to acknowledge as much?
The only exception I've heard so far has been Muhammad Ali who said after a boxing match in Africa  "thank God my granddaddy got on that boat."

I understand what you are saying, but I don't think I would see it that way had I been descended from slaves.  My response would be: "are American blacks better off being descended from slaves rather than migrating from Africa and becoming an American that way?" 

[goatprairie]

I understand what you are saying, but I don't think I would see it that way had I been descended from slaves.  My response would be: "are American blacks better off being descended from slaves rather than migrating from Africa and becoming an American that way?"

You cannot change the past. Many people enjoying good lives in numerous countries were descended from people who were either enslaved in their home country or enslaved when they arrived in their new country.
That goes for all races, ethnicities, peoples.
But whatever way they came, their descendants are usually much better off.
Another way to put it, if you found out some of your ancestors were slaves in Europe or elsewhere, would that make you sorry you live in America? I doubt it.

[Sanguine]

You cannot change the past. Many people enjoying good lives in numerous countries were descended from people who were either enslaved in their home country or enslaved when they arrived in their new country.
That goes for all races, ethnicities, peoples.
But whatever way they came, their descendants are usually much better off.
Another way to put it, if you found out some of your ancestors were slaves in Europe or elsewhere, would that make you sorry you live in America? I doubt it.

No one is suggesting we change the past.  And, I think we all agree that the historical trauma experienced by blacks has been overplayed in some cases. 

I have no doubt some of my ancestors were slaves at some point in time.  However, for the last many, many generations, my people have lived here voluntarily as free people.   

But, if we are being historically accurate we shouldn't minimize the idea that the descendants of American slaves in America have had a tough go of it.  There's a whole lot of reasons for that, and this probably isn't the thread to get into it.  People who immigrate from Africa (not as "refugees", just normal immigrants) tend to do very well, not being weighed down by both historical and current baggage.

[goatprairie]

No one is suggesting we change the past.  And, I think we all agree that the historical trauma experienced by blacks has been overplayed in some cases. 

I have no doubt some of my ancestors were slaves at some point in time.  However, for the last many, many generations, my people have lived here voluntarily as free people.   

But, if we are being historically accurate we shouldn't minimize the idea that the descendants of American slaves in America have had a tough go of it.  There's a whole lot of reasons for that, and this probably isn't the thread to get into it.  People who immigrate from Africa (not as "refugees", just normal immigrants) tend to do very well, not being weighed down by both historical and current baggage.

Yes, slaves had the worst of it. But that was in the past. Nobody in America has been a slave for over 150 years, and segregation/Jim Crow is more than fifty years in the past.   Most American blacks today have never experienced Jim Crow.
Many people's ancestors had horrible lives in the past. Should they use the horrible lives of their ancestors as an excuse to fail today?
I think not.

[Sanguine]

Yes, slaves had the worst of it. But that was in the past. Nobody in America has been a slave for over 150 years, and segregation/Jim Crow is more than fifty years in the past.   Most American blacks today have never experienced Jim Crow.
Many people's ancestors had horrible lives in the past. Should they use the horrible lives of their ancestors as an excuse to fail today?
I think not.

OK, you go with that.  You're wrong, but obviously presenting another point of view isn't something you are willing to consider.

[goatprairie]

OK, you go with that.  You're wrong, but obviously presenting another point of view isn't something you are willing to consider.

Tell me why I'm wrong. Maybe I don't understand the point you're trying to make.
Are you saying   because most American blacks are descended from slaves they get some sort of special understanding not available to other ethnicities?
When do you suggest they start being treated like other Americans and expected to pull their weight without excessive gov. assistance?

[Sanguine]

Tell me why I'm wrong. Maybe I don't understand the point you're trying to make.
Are you saying   because most American blacks are descended from slaves they get some sort of special understanding not available to other ethnicities?  When do you suggest they start being treated like other Americans and expected to pull their weight without excessive gov. assistance?

OK, in no particular order of importance, how slavery of Africans differed from slavery of Europeans:

1. Black people are visibly distinct from Asians, Indians, Europeans.  This has allowed for much more definitive segregation, voluntarily and not, over time. I don't think it's possible to understate how significant that was.  The Irish/Germans/Poles/Swedes/Italians etc., could after a generation or two, blend completely into American society.  Anglicizing their names didn't work for black Americans.

2. Extend period of slavery destroyed much of the family and hierarchical system of black society in America.

3. Black society was developing nicely in the less than 100 years since emancipation and adapting well to the American experiment.

4. LBJ and Teddy Kennedy's Great Society experiment has done several things:
 
    a.  It has reduced the number of black people moving into the middle class

    b.  It again destroyed the family and social structure in black areas, and arguably did so even more effectively than slavery did.  We can see similar destruction in some white ethnic groups, such as much of Appalachia.   This is another example:  http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,356328.msg1947479.html#msg1947479

5.  Now, this one is my theory, and I'm still working on it, but I think a good case that stone age people brought suddenly into a modern society generally do poorly.  There are examples all over the world. That is separate and in addition to the points above. 

[truth_seeker]

5.  Now, this one is my theory, and I'm still working on it, but I think a good case that stone age people brought suddenly into a modern society generally do poorly.  There are examples all over the world. That is separate and in addition to the points above. 

Native Americans and the reservation treatment, have left much to be desired, in terms of approach, results, etc.

Always I like hands up, not hand outs.

Teach a person to fish.etc.

[Sanguine]

Native Americans and the reservation treatment, have left much to be desired, in terms of approach, results, etc.

Always I like hands up, not hand outs.

Teach a person to fish.etc.

So, along those lines, why did God have the Israelite's wander around in the desert for 40 years (hint, one generation)?

[Absalom]

Whenever an inflammatory subject, such as Slavery appears, count on the "Know Nothing" posse to insist on control of the discussion.
Years ago, Prof. Jeremy Black, a Historian at Cambridge Univ. and author of "Slavery, A Global History" wrote that "Slavery was significant within the Ancient World since at least 2000 BC."
He further assessed the truism of the complicity of African Tribal culture/society in the African slave trade, to the New World.

[Bigun]

Every damned one of you is currently a slave and most are too ignorant to realize it!

Hint:  When someone or something, other than yourself,  has an a priori claim to the fruits of your labor (any amount he chooses)  what does that make you?

[goatprairie]

OK, in no particular order of importance, how slavery of Africans differed from slavery of Europeans:

1. Black people are visibly distinct from Asians, Indians, Europeans.  This has allowed for much more definitive segregation, voluntarily and not, over time. I don't think it's possible to understate how significant that was.  The Irish/Germans/Poles/Swedes/Italians etc., could after a generation or two, blend completely into American society.  Anglicizing their names didn't work for black Americans.

2. Extend period of slavery destroyed much of the family and hierarchical system of black society in America.

3. Black society was developing nicely in the less than 100 years since emancipation and adapting well to the American experiment.

4. LBJ and Teddy Kennedy's Great Society experiment has done several things:
 
    a.  It has reduced the number of black people moving into the middle class

    b.  It again destroyed the family and social structure in black areas, and arguably did so even more effectively than slavery did.  We can see similar destruction in some white ethnic groups, such as much of Appalachia.   This is another example:  http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,356328.msg1947479.html#msg1947479

5.  Now, this one is my theory, and I'm still working on it, but I think a good case that stone age people brought suddenly into a modern society generally do poorly.  There are examples all over the world. That is separate and in addition to the points above.

Blacks are stone age people?  While there is a black underclass, there are millions of blacks who have succeeded. Why should expect less out of blacks than other groups? In many countries the Chinese were discriminated against by the majority population and not a few times subjected to mass slaughter. The Chinese still went ahead and did their best.
To give excuses to any group of people for failure because of what happened to their ancestors  is not doing them any favors.  We hold all people to a standard, and it is up to them to meet that standard. That is how people succeed. Telling blacks it's alright if they fail is not helping them.

[Sanguine]

Blacks are stone age people?  While there is a black underclass, there are millions of blacks who have succeeded. Why should expect less out of blacks than other groups? In many countries the Chinese were discriminated against by the majority population and not a few times subjected to mass slaughter. The Chinese still went ahead and did their best.
To give excuses to any group of people for failure because of what happened to their ancestors  is not doing them any favors.  We hold all people to a standard, and it is up to them to meet that standard. That is how people succeed. Telling blacks it's alright if they fail is not helping them.

@goatprairie, I took the position that your questions were sincere and you really wanted an answer.  I put some time and quite a lot of thought into my response to your questions.  It hurts my feelings deeply that you just skimmed my answer and didn't really seem to consider anything I wrote.   

[berdie]

I hate to say this....no I really don't. I never owned a slave nor did any of my relatives.  I have never known a slave...nor any relative of one.

So let it go and move on. There are so many opportunites ...if you choose to take them.

[Sanguine]

I hate to say this....no I really don't. I never owned a slave nor did any of my relatives.  I have never known a slave...nor any relative of one.

So let it go and move on. There are so many opportunites ...if you choose to take them.

Nothing to apologize for.