Author Topic: Conservatives Shouldn’t Fear Evolutionary Theory  (Read 2594 times)

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Offline Machiavelli

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Conservatives Shouldn’t Fear Evolutionary Theory
« on: May 13, 2019, 08:45:26 pm »
Razib Khan
National Review
May 13, 2019

Quote
It is a crowning achievement of Western civilization and a rejoinder to the modern myths of the Left.

As an evolutionary geneticist and a conservative, I take some interest in critiques of Darwinism. I have come to expect that every few years a new book by Michael Behe, a professor of biochemistry at Lehigh University, will trigger commentary relaying his skepticism of evolutionary theory to the interested public. And this will result in vociferous rejoinders from evolutionary biologists.

But evolutionary biology is nothing for conservatives to fear, because it is one of the crowning achievements of modern Western civilization. It should be viewed not as an acid gnawing at the bones of civilization, but as a jewel. The science built upon the rock of Charles Darwin’s ideas is a reflection of Western modernity’s commitment to truth as a fundamental value. And many Christians well-versed in evolutionary science find it entirely compatible with their religious beliefs.

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Offline truth_seeker

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Re: Conservatives Shouldn’t Fear Evolutionary Theory
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2019, 09:04:18 pm »
Check out Bret Weinstein and his wife Heather Heying. Both members of the Intellectual Dark Web and both "Evolutionary Biologists."
It is fascinating knowledge.

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Offline Free Vulcan

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Re: Conservatives Shouldn’t Fear Evolutionary Theory
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2019, 09:05:43 pm »
I don't 'fear' evolution. 'Fear' is a co-opted leftist term used as a veiled way to scream 'heretic' while hiding the faith aspect of their doctrines.

If we evolved, scientists sure haven't made a very good case of it. Give me something that holds water and I might listen.
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Offline truth_seeker

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Re: Conservatives Shouldn’t Fear Evolutionary Theory
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2019, 09:11:40 pm »
I don't 'fear' evolution. 'Fear' is a co-opted leftist term used as a veiled way to scream 'heretic' while hiding the faith aspect of their doctrines.

If we evolved, scientists sure haven't made a very good case of it. Give me something that holds water and I might listen.

I have no doubt that various species "evolved."

How and at the direction of what forces, I am not certain. I believe in a higher power, that directed it.


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Offline LegalAmerican

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Re: Conservatives Shouldn’t Fear Evolutionary Theory
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2019, 09:15:21 pm »
I just use common sense.  No explosion...mess...created such an orderly life as our planet IS. 

OUR BODY'S. Plants needing male & female to re-produce.   Our body's taking in oxygen from plants who use our co-2 for their life.

SYNERGY. 


Offline LegalAmerican

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Re: Conservatives Shouldn’t Fear Evolutionary Theory
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2019, 09:16:38 pm »
I have no doubt that various species "evolved."

How and at the direction of what forces, I am not certain. I believe in a higher power, that directed it.


........ :thumbsup:

Online rustynail

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Re: Conservatives Shouldn’t Fear Evolutionary Theory
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2019, 09:18:57 pm »
Parts is parts.

Offline QueenCatofAragon

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Re: Conservatives Shouldn’t Fear Evolutionary Theory
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2019, 01:41:44 am »
I don't 'fear' evolution. 'Fear' is a co-opted leftist term used as a veiled way to scream 'heretic' while hiding the faith aspect of their doctrines.

If we evolved, scientists sure haven't made a very good case of it. Give me something that holds water and I might listen.


@Free Vulcan

Thank you.  That was a smug attempt by the author similar to "homophobia" BS.

Here's the thing.  I'm not going to try to find ways to fit the Bible into evolutionary theory.  Rather,I'm going to see if evolution fits into the Bible.  It doesn't.  I know a lot of Christians recoil at the idea of being viewed as an unsophisticated snake-handler, but oh,well.

If it took millions of years for life to evolve, what's the basis for the sabbath?  Where does it even come from?  It's based on the creation week, so if that didn't happen...?

The Bible says that sin, death, suffering, etc. came into the world after the Garden--in other words, after Adam and Eve brought it about.  But the fossil record shows plenty of death and suffering before humans showed up.  Both can't be right.

The men who wrote down the Bible believed in the creation account; they referred to it many times.  Jesus Himself spoke of "He who made them at the beginning", which is the same phrase used in Genesis.  In other words, humans did not come along toward the end of an evolutionary process.

I know I'm expected to call Jesus a liar so intellectuals will approve of me, but it's not happening.

If we go down the road of the creation account being an allegory, then how much more Scripture is allegorical?  How do we know what we can trust?  Why did Jesus even die on the cross if we can't be sure that sin came into the world and requires His redemption? 

Charles Darwin vacillated between agnosticism and outright atheism, at one point in 1880 saying in a letter that He didn't believe the Bible as a divine revelation and therefore not in Jesus Christ as the Son of God.  Somebody want to tell me why on earth I should accept his attempt to explain away God's creation?  Or why I'm supposed to say, "Oh well, harrumph, I'm sure it fits in somewhere, and what do I know." 

Yeah, nope.

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Offline Absalom

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Re: Conservatives Shouldn’t Fear Evolutionary Theory
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2019, 02:47:57 am »
This Khan character is shilling for Evolution.
Up front, it's a Theory, A THEORY; possessing
none of the science in Euclid, Pythagoras,
Copernicus, Galileo and Newton, to name a few.
This is the core reason it is a THEORY which
means it remains a speculation!!!!!

Offline Sanguine

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Re: Conservatives Shouldn’t Fear Evolutionary Theory
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2019, 03:00:07 am »
I have no doubt that various species "evolved."

How and at the direction of what forces, I am not certain. I believe in a higher power, that directed it.

Same here, and well said.


Offline Hoodat

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Re: Conservatives Shouldn’t Fear Evolutionary Theory
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2019, 03:17:51 am »
I don't fear the Theory of Evolution.  The critical flaw with the theory is that there is no creation.  It just assumes that the second law of thermodynamics is not valid, the Cambrian explosion never happened, and that the first bit of fossil evidence that would prove the theory true has yet to be discovered. 
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Offline Sanguine

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Re: Conservatives Shouldn’t Fear Evolutionary Theory
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2019, 04:01:03 am »
I don't fear the Theory of Evolution.  The critical flaw with the theory is that there is no creation.  It just assumes that the second law of thermodynamics is not valid, the Cambrian explosion never happened, and that the first bit of fossil evidence that would prove the theory true has yet to be discovered.

TOE is not about the original creation.  It doesn't even try to explain it.

Offline truth_seeker

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Re: Conservatives Shouldn’t Fear Evolutionary Theory
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2019, 04:18:12 am »
The rate at which scientific knowledge is growing, is fast--exponential.

In the field of DNA alone, There will be medical treatments using genetics in no time at all.


Soon pre-natal DNA tests might predict quite a wise range of possible outcomes.

 
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Offline jmyrlefuller

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Re: Conservatives Shouldn’t Fear Evolutionary Theory
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2019, 02:13:43 pm »
I have never feared evolutionary theory, as incomplete as it may be sometimes.

The creation poem in Genesis was not an eyewitness account. There were no eyewitnesses at the time. Whoever wrote it either a) made it up (probably not) or b) received it, either directly or indirectly, from a vision or dream. Genesis itself concedes that visions and dreams must be interpreted and are not to be taken literally (see the story of Joseph and the prophecies).

Humanity's uniqueness is something beyond genetics.
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Offline Sanguine

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Re: Conservatives Shouldn’t Fear Evolutionary Theory
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2019, 02:16:40 pm »
I have never feared evolutionary theory, as incomplete as it may be sometimes.

The creation poem in Genesis was not an eyewitness account. There were no eyewitnesses at the time. Whoever wrote it either a) made it up (probably not) or b) received it, either directly or indirectly, from a vision or dream. Genesis itself concedes that visions and dreams must be interpreted and are not to be taken literally (see the story of Joseph and the prophecies).

Humanity's uniqueness is something beyond genetics.

I wonder why we understand Jesus to have spoken in parables (as He said He did), but do not read any of the OT as having been spoken in parables?
« Last Edit: May 14, 2019, 04:36:19 pm by Sanguine »

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Re: Conservatives Shouldn’t Fear Evolutionary Theory
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2019, 04:35:43 pm »
I don't 'fear' evolution. 'Fear' is a co-opted leftist term used as a veiled way to scream 'heretic' while hiding the faith aspect of their doctrines.

If we evolved, scientists sure haven't made a very good case of it. Give me something that holds water and I might listen.

Leftists love to claim people who disagree with them are "phobics" of one stripe or another, and I'm pretty tired of it.  Claiming your opponents are "mentally ill" (and deserving of being locked up) is a long used tactic, the Soviets weren't the only practitioners.  How many insane asylums were there in Siberia, BTW?  Still there?

This applies to every (insert policy here)-phobia the Rats spew.  It's possible to disagree with somebody without "fearing" them.
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Offline QueenCatofAragon

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Re: Conservatives Shouldn’t Fear Evolutionary Theory
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2019, 11:02:01 pm »
I have never feared evolutionary theory, as incomplete as it may be sometimes.

The creation poem in Genesis was not an eyewitness account. There were no eyewitnesses at the time. Whoever wrote it either a) made it up (probably not) or b) received it, either directly or indirectly, from a vision or dream. Genesis itself concedes that visions and dreams must be interpreted and are not to be taken literally (see the story of Joseph and the prophecies).

Humanity's uniqueness is something beyond genetics.


You’re right that there were no human eyewitnesses to creation, unless Moses—who wrote it—was given a vision.  Or he could have just been told what happened.  Either way, that’s what Scripture is considered to be by Christians—written by man, inspired by God.

But if you believe it was made up, then you’re presented with the Sinai (Exodus) account which says creation took 6 days.  Also written by Moses.  And in the NT, Jesus told his disciples if they believed Moses’ writings, they would believe Him.  But if they didn’t believe Moses’ writings, He asked them “how will you believe me?” 

Scripture is supposed to be a revelation, and instruction.  Its purpose isn’t to confuse.

It honestly intrigues me—and I mean this sincerely—that there’s so much resistance to the concept of the 6 day creation.  Not just here, but in general.  I mean, do we think God isn’t capable?  He could create the universe, but that time frame was more than He could handle?  🤷🏻‍♀️
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Offline QueenCatofAragon

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Re: Conservatives Shouldn’t Fear Evolutionary Theory
« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2019, 11:04:30 pm »
I wonder why we understand Jesus to have spoken in parables (as He said He did), but do not read any of the OT as having been spoken in parables?

You answered your own question.  Jesus made it clear whenever He spoke in parables.

I say this to Beto fans, Trump fans, all fans of politicians: it is un-American, ridiculous, and dangerous to be a fan of a politician. They aren't pop stars. Support them if you agree with their policies. Criticize them when they go wrong. They are servants, not celebrities. —— Matt Walsh

Offline Sanguine

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Re: Conservatives Shouldn’t Fear Evolutionary Theory
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2019, 11:14:37 pm »
You answered your own question.  Jesus made it clear whenever He spoke in parables.

No, no he didn't.  He revealed much to his apostles, but not to people in general.

Offline QueenCatofAragon

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Re: Conservatives Shouldn’t Fear Evolutionary Theory
« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2019, 12:11:01 am »
No, no he didn't.  He revealed much to his apostles, but not to people in general.

Okay, but you didn’t make that distinction before.  The disciples wanted to know why He used parables, and He explained.  There were people listening who didn’t believe Him.  They would recognize that He was using a story as illustration, but the non believers wouldn’t get the point.  Those who did believe would understand and progress in faith as a result.  They would be made to think.

When Jesus spoke about the events and people in Genesis, He used no parables.  He confirmed them as historical fact.
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Offline Sanguine

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Re: Conservatives Shouldn’t Fear Evolutionary Theory
« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2019, 12:35:28 am »
Okay, but you didn’t make that distinction before.  The disciples wanted to know why He used parables, and He explained.  There were people listening who didn’t believe Him.  They would recognize that He was using a story as illustration, but the non believers wouldn’t get the point.  Those who did believe would understand and progress in faith as a result.  They would be made to think.

When Jesus spoke about the events and people in Genesis, He used no parables.  He confirmed them as historical fact.

‘But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.’  2 Peter 3:8–9

I'm not sure why we're even arguing this.  The events in Genesis were of time before days, so it's silly to even argue that we're talking Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, etc., when God had not created them yet.  We're obviously talking indeterminate periods of time.

If I could prove to you conclusively that the day referred to in Genesis is not what we now call the standard 24 hour/365.25 days/year, would that affect your faith at all?  Of course not.  Why is it necessary that days in Genesis are 24 hour, contemporary days?

Offline QueenCatofAragon

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Re: Conservatives Shouldn’t Fear Evolutionary Theory
« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2019, 03:09:49 am »
Quote
‘But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.’  2 Peter 3:8–9

But the context here.  Peter isn’t talking about creation; he’s speaking about the human impatience to want quick action from God.  He says a day is LIKE a thousand years, not that a day IS a thousand years.  And he’s referring back to a Psalm:

“For a thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night.’

Quote
I'm not sure why we're even arguing this.  The events in Genesis were of time before days, so it's silly to even argue that we're talking Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, etc., when God had not created them yet.  We're obviously talking indeterminate periods of time.

It’s not at all obvious.  There’s no reason to think so and plenty of evidence to support a 6-day period.  I haven’t gone into much of it.

“So far as I know, there is no professor of Hebrew or Old Testament at any world-class university who does not believe that the writer(s) of Gen. 1–11 intended to convey to their readers the ideas that (a) creation took place in a series of six days which were the same as the days of 24 hours we now experience (b) the figures contained in the Genesis genealogies provided by simple addition a chronology from the beginning of the world up to later stages in the biblical story (c) Noah’s Flood was understood to be worldwide and extinguish all human and animal life except for those in the ark.”

That’s James Barr, professor of Hebrew at Oxford University.  This is Marcus Dods, a 19th century theologian at New College in Edinburgh:

“If, for example, the word “day” in these chapters does not mean a period of twenty-four hours, the interpretation of Scripture is hopeless.”

He’s right.  Once we start choosing different parts of the Bible which don’t really mean what they say, we can toss the entire thing. 

Quote
If I could prove to you conclusively that the day referred to in Genesis is not what we now call the standard 24 hour/365.25 days/year, would that affect your faith at all?  Of course not.  Why is it necessary that days in Genesis are 24 hour, contemporary days?

See, this is what I don’t understand, though, and I genuinely find it intriguing.  Why would you want to?  Why is it so important to disprove a six day creation?  It makes no sense.  Why is the concept so unthinkable and intolerable?  We’re talking about an all-powerful God, right?  He could have willed this whole thing into being with a thought or a blink.  He didn’t even need six days. 


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Offline Sanguine

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Re: Conservatives Shouldn’t Fear Evolutionary Theory
« Reply #22 on: May 15, 2019, 03:12:26 am »
....

See, this is what I don’t understand, though, and I genuinely find it intriguing.  Why would you want to?  Why is it so important to disprove a six day creation?  It makes no sense.  Why is the concept so unthinkable and intolerable?  We’re talking about an all-powerful God, right?  He could have willed this whole thing into being with a thought or a blink.  He didn’t even need six days.

Why would we want to understand God and His ways?  (As much as we mere mortals can?)  Is that what you are asking?

Offline truth_seeker

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Re: Conservatives Shouldn’t Fear Evolutionary Theory
« Reply #23 on: May 15, 2019, 04:03:47 am »
I was encouraged to read "Inherit the Wind," about the Scopes Monkey Trials when I was a teenager.
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Offline QueenCatofAragon

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Re: Conservatives Shouldn’t Fear Evolutionary Theory
« Reply #24 on: May 15, 2019, 12:11:02 pm »
Why would we want to understand God and His ways?  (As much as we mere mortals can?)  Is that what you are asking?

No.  I’m asking why a statement of belief in the 6 day creation has become controversial among Christians. 
I say this to Beto fans, Trump fans, all fans of politicians: it is un-American, ridiculous, and dangerous to be a fan of a politician. They aren't pop stars. Support them if you agree with their policies. Criticize them when they go wrong. They are servants, not celebrities. —— Matt Walsh